Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada

[profastian]

Well, our new guest Adam appears to have decided to 'disappear' just as I had predicted he would. He also appeared to be more intelligent than the most of the rest of abdes who are mere hecklers. For those whose identities have been tied with disobedience to Allah's commands, it is not easy to submit to the the heat of rationality and relentless logic of Quran's message of tawheed.

However, I must caution those who obliquely take a swipe at Hindu rituals. It is best to confine criticism on the basis of the Quran and not to appear critical of Hinduism or any other religion. They have their adherents and they too have 'truth' on their side.

Why dont you answer the question and be done with the heckling. Why did Allah command sajda to Adam? Didn't that make the angles mushriks?

[anajmi]

The angels were following Allah's command so they are not mushriks. You are disobeying Allah and his messenger who has clearly prohibited sajda of any kind to any human. So you are a mushrik.

[profastian]

The angels were following Allah's command so they are not mushriks. You are disobeying Allah and his messenger who has clearly prohibited sajda of any kind to any human. So you are a mushrik.

So you admit that the act of sajda itself is not intrinsically related to shirk. The only contention remaining is whether Allah commanded sajda to DAI or not (and according to your logic it is not inconceivable that Allah commanded it).

[labbaikyaHussain]

i just have one opinion here.

If the sunni's think that we are doing shirk by doing sajda to our Dai, i say, who cares!

You wanna think we are doing shirk? go on, think what you like. see if we care. we do sajda to our Dai out of love and respect. The Bible prohibits you from prostating to anyone but God but Pope Benedict still has people bending and kissing his ring. Look at the video of the Pope's first tweet for confirmation on that.

To the proggies, i say, since when did you start interfering in personal affairs? Dai has never said to do Sajda to him, we do it out of our own love. Stick to what your original agenda is, accountabality of money and dissemination and de-centralisation of power

BTW, we will continue to do Sajda to our Dai and you (everyone else) can continue to call us Mushirk's and Munafiq's till you go blue in the face, but see if that's going to make any difference to us

My Bohra brothers, let's end this topic now. No more justifying our love to them.

if he is not stopping people from doing sajda to him,it means he is giving permission to do so...

[sallu_baba]

The Syedna had come to my house in my younger days and before his arrival, we were all taught on the manners of approaching him including kissing on the knees. When the time actually came for me to do the the salaam, they pushed me right to the feet as I recall......out of the love and affection for the Dai indeed.

[sallu_baba]

I believe you diverted the argument I was trying to make in the sense that I really did not want to or was prepared to be pushed down to the feet. I was forced. And I know a lot of people get forced into such things. If it rocks your boat, then go ahead but please don't make exaggerations such as "we all love to do it". And anyways the power of herd mentality is very strong in a close-knit community such as the Dawoodi Bohras. If one person does it, needless to say, you would also feel very compelled to do the same.

[fearAllah]

i just have one opinion here.

If the sunni's think that we are doing shirk by doing sajda to our Dai, i say, who cares!

You wanna think we are doing shirk? go on, think what you like. see if we care. we do sajda to our Dai out of love and respect. The Bible prohibits you from prostating to anyone but God but Pope Benedict still has people bending and kissing his ring. Look at the video of the Pope's first tweet for confirmation on that.

To the proggies, i say, since when did you start interfering in personal affairs? Dai has never said to do Sajda to him, we do it out of our own love. Stick to what your original agenda is, accountabality of money and dissemination and de-centralisation of power

BTW, we will continue to do Sajda to our Dai and you (everyone else) can continue to call us Mushirk's and Munafiq's till you go blue in the face, but see if that's going to make any difference to us

My Bohra brothers, let's end this topic now. No more justifying our love to them.

Moulana Ali went mad to some people (same like you) when they were shouting his name and kissing his feet on his way to battle of Siffin, he didnt even drink a glass of water in their territotry though he was so thirsty and hungry and called their acts as shirk, please dont blindly follow anything, learn Islam from first principles and take first hand examples not second hand....

[SBM]

Mustafanalwalla

i just have one opinion here.
If the sunni's think that we are doing shirk by doing sajda to our Dai, i say, who cares!

You should have no opinion about Islam since you clarified your position on other thread

[anajmi]

So you admit that the act of sajda itself is not intrinsically related to shirk. The only contention remaining is whether Allah commanded sajda to DAI or not (and according to your logic it is not inconceivable that Allah commanded it).

Actually, Allah has clearly forbidden Sajda to anyone other than Himself in the Quran. The Quran is for mankind and not for the angels. Also, the prophet (saw) clear prohibited Sajda of any kind to any human being. There is no evidence of Hazrat Ali performing Sajda to the Prophet (saw) or anyone performing Sajda to Hazrat Ali.

[anajmi]

mus-nul

You wanna think we are doing shirk? go on, think what you like. see if we care. we do sajda to our Dai out of love and respect. The Bible prohibits you from prostating to anyone but God but Pope Benedict still has people bending and kissing his ring. Look at the video of the Pope's first tweet for confirmation on that.

That is precisely my point. Bohris do not learn from the prophet Muhammad (saw). They learn from the christians and the Hindus!!

[British]

Abdes are trying to justify sajda to a human being to such an extent that they are making fools of themselves. It has become laughable.
Deep down I think that they know in their hearts of hearts that this is wrong and forbidden by Allah Almighty. They have been coerced to such a degree that even common sense cannot prevail.

[Conscíous]

Word ^^

[BlackSaya]

I've never seen such a demolition in a debate, as the Abdes have taken here!

I mean their arguments are so far fetched and drawing at straws that...why would you want to even take the risk of doing sajda to anyone outside of Allah(swt)?? For what reward?!?

I guess Abdes are not familiar with risk/reward scenarios...I guess that wasnt taught in the sabaks!

[ghulam muhammed]

I guess Abdes are not familiar with risk/reward scenarios...I guess that wasnt taught in the sabaks!

Why should they worry about risk/reward scenarios ?? They are guaranteed a place in heaven by their master by way of 'ruku chithi', a written document. Its a different matter that even the Prophet (s.a.w.) didnt resort to such tactics.

[Adam]

@porus

Well, our new guest Adam appears to have decided to 'disappear' just as I had predicted he would. He also appeared to be more intelligent than the most of the rest of abdes who are mere hecklers.

I haven't "disappeared". This thread lacks argumental substance, as many PDB try to twist the facts and divert from the topic, rather childish like. Plus, I really don't have too much time on my hands to be contstantly tuning into this thread.
Got some free time today, it's long, so brace yourselves!

Just went through some of the stuff said before :

1.
@anajmi

So the sajda done by the angels to Adam (as) was not of respect but simply in obedience to the command of Allah.

by anajmi on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:03 pm
Allah did not allow sajda to Adam. He commanded it. Do you understand the difference? The angels weren't dying to do sajda to Adam like you idol worshippers.

I'll be repeating the same point over and over again. Command or out of respect, the Sajdo was given to a Human. That fact always stays the same.
If you say it was purely out of respect to the "command" "order" of Allah. Whether it was a test of faith, or whatever it may be. Allah would never order anyone to do anything that is forbidden or haraam, for whatever reason.
Quran Surah A'raaf Ayah 28
وَإِذَا فَعَلُواْ فَاحِشَةً قَالُواْ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَآ آبَاءَنَا وَٱللَّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا قُلْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لاَ يَأْمُرُ بِٱلْفَحْشَآءِ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
And when they commit a Fahisha , they say: "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has commanded us of it." Say: "Nay, Allah never commands of Fahisha. Do you say of Allah what you know not?

So when the Sajda to Adam AS was an order from Allah to the angels, it was completely "lawful", and thus not "forbidden", thus, the point of Sajdo to a human is justified.

Now the question would be, why Adam AS and not anyone in his time? Answer would be, because he is the Prophet of Allah to his people. Same goes to all the Prophets and Imams of their time. And the TRUE Dawoodi Bohra give perform the sajda for the same reason to their Dai, he is our leader, even though he is a "Human", as stated for example in the Quran.

قالت لهم رسلهم ان نحن الا بشر مثلكم ولكن الله يمن على من يشاء من عباده
(Surah Ibrahim Ayah 11)
11. Their Messengers said to them: "We are no more than human beings like you, but Allah bestows His Grace to whom He wills of His slaves.

Their is a fine line between the true belief and idolatry.

2.
@anajmi

The sajda in the story of Prophet Yusuf (as) is in a dream.

It's very frustrating to have to point this out over and over again. If you read Surah Yusuf, in the beginning, the Sun Moon & Stars perform Sajdo in his dream, but towards the end of the Surah, the dream is then a REALITY, in a PHYSICAL form to YUSUF AS. (Yes, to YUSUF AS, read my earlier posts if you disagree).

3.

@BooM

So what is Halal in this life ( like "Sajda to the Dai") is Halal in the hereafter right ??
And from what I have understood about the Sajda is; Sajda to Allah is not the same as the Sajda to the Dai because, Sajda to the Dai is kissing the ground/earth right??
Now can you please explain me, how will you perform your Sajda to the Dai, if there is no ground/earth to kiss in the afterlife ??

What a senseless argument. Either you have completely not understood Fatimid belief, or purposely distorting the facts to confuse.
Yes, "what is Halal in this life is Halal in the hereafter".
Yes, Heaven wont have a physical form, and according to what you said, there wont be "earth".
My rhetoric answer :
So isn't Namaaz also a act in this world? So how do we perform Sajda in Namaaz in the afterlife is there is no earth to pray on? Or the fruits mentioned in the Quran, how can they "grow", if there is no earth to grow from?

You don't need to answer this question, it's just to state how twisted your mind is.

4.

The PDB deceitfully shy away from the true fatimi belief. In the article named "Reformists and their religious beliefs" it says :

Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

If you properly read the text from Kitab al Himmah as posted in the beginning, it clearly states the Fatimid & Dawoodi Bohra belief. It even goes on to say, "there is nothing wrong with giving Sajdo". (Line 8-9) (The entire subject chapter in Kitab al Himmah clearly discusses this, and allows it.)

In the book, al Majalis al Musayaraat, there are instances of Syedna Qazi Noman performing the Sajdo to his Imam AS.

HOWEVER, one important issue that wasn't pointed out before this is:
In the beginning of this thread, murtaza2152, a devout Dawoodi Bohra scanned an image from the page of the Chapter of Kitab al Himmah about the Sajda.
The chapter is self explanatory on the justification of the sajda (as mentioned before, Line 8/9) this is final.
BUT there is a mistake in line 12 in the printed version (which murtaza2152 may not have known about), which no-one has pointed out, grammatically it makes no sense, but the Proggies are keen to keep shut as it "may" help there cause.

This was a post by porus :

by porus on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:24 pm
Let me translate several more relevant sentences from the passage:
وقال: لا تسجدوا إلا لله
فاإنما نهى عز و جل عن السجود لأحد من دونه يتخذه إلها معبودا| فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه
And He (Allah) said: "Do not prostrate (do sujood) to anyone other than Allah"
Thus, Azza wa Jal (Allah) has forbidden sujood to anyone except Himself and who (that anyone other than Allah) is taken as a god to be worshipped (ma'abood). As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (to other than Allah), that is also forbidden.

I must agree, porus translation is correct, except for this part, the main part :

The ARABIC text : فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه (translated:As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (to other than Allah), that is also forbidden), is WRONG. Thus porus s translation is also wrong in this manner, he kind of "skips" that part in his translation.
I confirmed from another manuscript, the text is actually :

فاما السجود تعظيما له فلم ينه عنه
Translation : As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (the Imam), it is NOT forbidden.

Why is this NEW version of the text correct?
Mainly, because the word ينه says it all. It's فهم vs فلم
-The root نهى (past tense: forbid) has a present test ينهى. The only way ينهى can turn into ينه is if there is a negative لم before it. So it cannot be فهم, rather it is فلم.
- Also, if it were فهم meaning "they", the verb should be in plural. Either They forbade (past) نهوا or they forbid (present) ينهون. Since the word is ينه and not it any other tense, I am inclined to believe the NEW version is correct. Anyone with knowledge of Arabic Grammar would agree.

Note to All: Many of these printed versions of Fatimid Ismaili books have been published by many, most commonly a man named Mustafa Ghalib. He is known to have published many books, but he is equally known to have been EXTREMELY careless in is work and proof reading, thus many of his books have a number of typos, even simple Quran ayats have been mis-spelled. I'm not blaming him with a conspiracy theory for distorting the facts, but maybe he did, or maybe he just wasn't too careful. Nevertheless, care is needed when reading the printed versions.

5.

This talk on Kitab al Himmah and Syedna Qazi Noman RA brings me to another lies the PDB continue to say, thus deceive and twist the facts.
Firstly, if they believed in Fatimid Scholars (In Zuhoor & Satr), they would believe in what they stood for and wrote about : Leadership of the Imam & Dai in Satr. belief in the Nass, and finally the 52nd Dai al Muthlaq.
They have broken this link, thus they seize to be what they claim to be!

They "claim" to respect Syedna Qazi Noman RA, and other Fatimid scholars:

In the Introduction to this site it says:

The reformists are proud of the Fatimi Da'wah, its heritage and its tradition.

The reformists reject the very idea of blind, unquestioning or absolute obedience to any religious or worldly authority in the absence of imam who is supposedly in seclusion. His authentic religious guidance is available in the form of various books written or compiled during and under the supervision of imams. For example the books compiled by the great Isma'ili da'is like Syedna Qadi Al-N'uman, Syedna Hamiduddin Kirmani and Syedna Muayyad al-Shirazi are available for our guidance. All these da'is wrote their works during the times of various imams like Imam Mu`iz li Dinallah, Imam Hakim bi Amrillah and Imam Mustansir Billah. Also, the great da'is like Syedna Hatim and others who wrote during the period of seclusion of imams are also available for our guidance. More such instances can be given.

BUT, it hurts me to see Proggies not revering Syedna Qazi Noman RA - this great scholar with respect, to VERY OPENLY insult him.
Let me quote a few of them from this thread.

porus on many occasions has just referred to him as "Qazi Noman".

by anajmi on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:13 am
"Syedna" Qazi Numan was a paid poet in the court of the Imam of that time. Just like we have paid poets writing poetry in the praise of the Dai so was Qazi Numan writing poetry in the praise of the Imam. If he mentioned that Sajda is only for Allah it is simply because he understood the Quran a little bit better than the bohras of today do. He asked people to do the next best thing!! If he has allowed Sajda, then he is no better than any other abde syedna mushrik!!

by accountability on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:43 am
Qazi Noman is not a prophet or imam or any sanctified personality. He was a judge in Fatimid era, How good a judge was he, it is unknown.

by Muslim First on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:06 am
So brother Stranger,
Syedna Qazi Nomans in his Kitaab ul Himma has described two innovative Sajsdas. Just like Syedna Qazi anajmi's Sajda-e-phokatiya, Sajda-e-darpokiya Sajda-e-Biwiya and Sajda-e-Sasua.

by anajmi on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:13 am
"Syedna" Qazi Numan was a paid poet in the court of the Imam of that time. Just like we have paid poets writing poetry in the praise of the Dai so was Qazi Numan writing poetry in the praise of the Imam. If he mentioned that Sajda is only for Allah it is simply because he understood the Quran a little bit better than the bohras of today do. He asked people to do the next best thing!! If he has allowed Sajda, then he is no better than any other abde syedna mushrik!!

porus
I must add that this a recommendation by Qazi Noman and not a command from the Quran and it is not mandatory for any one. And Qazi Noman is not the Imam.

Thus let it be known that the people who CLAIM to be PDB, are infact ENEMIES of the Fatimid Ismaili belief. (We Dawoodi Bohras already knew that, i'm just clarifying it for the Proggies who've been deceived).
They have the right to believe what they want to. But what are they doing interfering with a Dawoodi Bohra Ismaili Fatimi community, if they continue to insult their scholars?

All my posts shout out the same answer : Discuss CORE BELIEF ISSUES, without beating around the bush with secondary ones.
What is your religion? Who is your leader? You definitely aren't Dawoodi Bohras!

See you next time!

[anajmi]

Adam,

Whatever you are saying goes against the teachings of prophet Muhammad (saw) who has clearly prevented sajda of any kind to any human. Hazrat Ali never performed sajda to anyone other than Allah and no one performed sajda to Hazrat Ali. You Dai is not greater that them. Hence the conclusion that the bohras are mushriks.

[anajmi]

That was a very mature reply. Suitable for your age I guess. Being an idiot and proud of it. There is a reason why I refer to you people as abde idiots and you are a good example of it. It is like saying, I don't give 2 hoots about how many times you slap me or my community around. I thumb my nose to you!!

[BlackSaya]

We, Bohra's, will continue to do Sajda to our Dai, like it or not.

Go ahead, just dont call yourselves muslim!

[Maqbool]

i just have one opinion here.

If the sunni's think that we are doing shirk by doing sajda to our Dai, i say, who cares!

You wanna think we are doing shirk? go on, think what you like. see if we care. we do sajda to our Dai out of love and respect. The Bible prohibits you from prostating to anyone but God but Pope Benedict still has people bending and kissing his ring. Look at the video of the Pope's first tweet for confirmation on that.

To the proggies, i say, since when did you start interfering in personal affairs? Dai has never said to do Sajda to him, we do it out of our own love. Stick to what your original agenda is, accountabality of money and dissemination and de-centralisation of power

BTW, we will continue to do Sajda to our Dai and you (everyone else) can continue to call us Mushirk's and Munafiq's till you go blue in the face, but see if that's going to make any difference to us

My Bohra brothers, let's end this topic now. No more justifying our love to them.

Yes you are right. Why should have any one objection when you are taking arti of sayedna (Vadahavu), Giving any daxina (Salam), Taking prasad (Titles), kissing foot or photograph of sayedna, believing him a God or many things our ancestors were doing.

The objection will be only when you claim that you have been converted to Islam and believing in Prophet Mohammed. I do not understand why are you so Hippocratic. Believe in one faith either in Islam or in Hinduism, don't keep foot on both side.

By the way you entered in this forum as non believer and you thought about sayedna in your crises time and you believe that he has helped you. If you have thought about baba Ramdev or sri sri Ravishankar, would have been better, because you could have performed above mentioned rituals without any clarification to be given to others.

[Maqbool]

Yes you are right. Why should have any one objection when you are taking arti of sayedna (Vadahavu), Giving any daxina (Salam), Taking prasad (Titles), kissing foot or photograph of sayedna, believing him a God or many things our ancestors were doing.

The objection will be only when you claim that you have been converted to Islam and believing in Prophet Mohammed. I do not understand why are you so Hippocratic. Believe in one faith either in Islam or in Hinduism, don't keep foot on both side.

By the way you entered in this forum as non believer and you thought about sayedna in your crises time and you believe that he has helped you. If you have thought about baba Ramdev or sri sri Ravishankar, would have been better, because you could have performed above mentioned rituals without any clarification to be given to others.

HAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAAA


what a moron you are, you don't even read what you write!

When did i ever convert to Islam? You blind or just plain dumb? Don't you read things before talking about them?

Also, its a hypocrite you idiot, not hippocratic. Hippocratic oath is what doctors take di**head

By the way, prostating to Ramdev or SSR was reall funny i must say, hilarious

Mustafa,
I think you are a human being and good language will make you more human.
Thank you for teaching me English. Please note that I am just learning and not a professor in English like you. Also please not that there are no word like prostating. So please see that when you finger to some one other fingers are pointed at you.

Now regarding conversion it is about our forefather who are converted from hindu brahmins to DB. Not you. In fact you are converted to other religion now.

[Adam]

@anajmi

Adam,
Whatever you are saying goes against the teachings of prophet Muhammad (saw) who has clearly prevented sajda of any kind to any human.

Are you dumb? It's like i'm talking to a wall!
I just clearly quoted from the Quran, which is a CLEAREST teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW). The Quran allows it. The teachings of the Prophet are interrelated to the Quran.

He hasn't "clearly prevented sajda of any kind to any human". Read the Paragraph in Kitab al Himmah again. (It'll very clear, why he prohibited the people of Habashah.)
Like I said before, there is a fine line. And nothing takes away anything from Allah.

You guys started replying to this thread by trying to prove that Syedna Qazi Noman RA didn't approve of the Sajda.
I clarified that. Now you guys move away from the debate! Clearly not how a Q&A should work!

If you're not a Fatimi Ismaili believer, then what are you doing on this thread?
Are you a Proggy? What is the base of your religion? Who is your leader? After the Quran Majeed what texts do you use as guidance?

[porus]

Mr Adam,

Thank you for your post. I will confine my responses to what you wrote in your post and also to the passage that Murtaza provided from Kitab ul-Himma at the start of this thread. I will reply in several posts and will try to demonstrate to you that, from that passage, it is clear to me that Allah, Muhammad and Qadi Noman have all forbidden sajda to humans. With respect to your references to both Kitab ul-Himma and al-Majaalis al-Musayyiraat, please publish relevant passages from those books. I have both the books but I have not completely read them. I am particularly interested in the passage where you say Qadi Noman performed sujood to Imam.

I'll be repeating the same point over and over again. Command or out of respect, the Sajdo was given to a Human. That fact always stays the same.
If you say it was purely out of respect to the "command" "order" of Allah. Whether it was a test of faith, or whatever it may be. Allah would never order anyone to do anything that is forbidden or haraam, for whatever reason.
Quran Surah A'raaf Ayah 28
وَإِذَا فَعَلُواْ فَاحِشَةً قَالُواْ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَآ آبَاءَنَا وَٱللَّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا قُلْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لاَ يَأْمُرُ بِٱلْفَحْشَآءِ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
And when they commit a Fahisha , they say: "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has commanded us of it." Say: "Nay, Allah never commands of Fahisha. Do you say of Allah what you know not?

So when the Sajda to Adam AS was an order from Allah to the angels, it was completely "lawful", and thus not "forbidden", thus, the point of Sajdo to a human is justified.

faaHisha = harlot, whore, prostitute; monstrosity, abomination, atrocity, vile deed, crime; adultery, fornication,whoredom

faHshaa:u means the same as faaHisha

Sajda is not in the category of ‘faaHisha’. So, this ayat does not apply to sajda.

Now the question would be, why Adam AS and not anyone in his time? Answer would be, because he is the Prophet of Allah to his people. Same goes to all the Prophets and Imams of their time. And the TRUE Dawoodi Bohra give perform the sajda for the same reason to their Dai, he is our leader, even though he is a "Human",

There were no other humans at the time of the event that Allah describes regarding his command to angels; and Adam was not a Prophet yet.

as stated for example in the Quran.

قالت لهم رسلهم ان نحن الا بشر مثلكم ولكن الله يمن على من يشاء من عباده
(Surah Ibrahim Ayah 11)
11. Their Messengers said to them: "We are no more than human beings like you, but Allah bestows His Grace to whom He wills of His slaves.

This ayat has no relevance to sajda. However, Allah and Muhammad have both prohibited sajda to humans which I will clarify again in my later responses to your post.

Their is a fine line between the true belief and idolatry.

The line between true belief and idolatry is very clear and rigid as far as Tawheed is concerned.

Now, I must say that I am not impressed by your justification of the sujood to humans on the basis of the Quran and the writings of Qadi Noman. In fact, you need not go that far in time to ancient books. Sayedna today allows sajda to himself and members of his family. That should be enough argument for abdes. After all, Sayedna holds a rank much higher than that of Qadi Noman, who was merely a Qadi. And Sayedna is in the rank of Imam himself!

I will, Inshallah, carry on with responses to your post.

[anajmi]

just clearly quoted from the Quran, which is a CLEAREST teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW). The Quran allows it. The teachings of the Prophet are interrelated to the Quran.

You clearly quoted from the Quran but you haven't understood the Quran. The Quran has also prohibited sajda to anyone except Allah and the Quran was revealed for mankind and not the angels. Prophet Muhammad (saw) has clearly forbidden sajda of any kind to any human by any human. He did not allow sajda to himself and he himself never did sajda to anyone other than Allah. Hazrat Ali never did sajda to the prophet (saw) and he didn't allow sajda to himself.

Like I said before, there is a fine line.

This fine line is created by people who want to be worshipped and misinterpreters like you. The Quran is absolutely clear.

[porus]

The PDB deceitfully shy away from the true fatimi belief. In the article named "Reformists and their religious beliefs" it says :

Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

If you properly read the text from Kitab al Himmah as posted in the beginning, it clearly states the Fatimid & Dawoodi Bohra belief. It even goes on to say, "there is nothing wrong with giving Sajdo". (Line 8-9) (The entire subject chapter in Kitab al Himmah clearly discusses this, and allows it.)

You are referring to this line from the passage (line 8-9)?

لا يرون من قبل الارض في صلواته ساجدا حتى يأتى بحقيقة السجود على جهته و أنفه و ينويه نية سجوده على أنه لو سجد ساجد لولى من أولياء الله إعظاما للله لم يكن ذلك بمنكر


Would you translate this line for us especially the last words "lam yakun dhalika bi-munkar"? The latter means that whatever it was, it was not considered undesirable. It refers to practise before Islam.

In the book, al Majalis al Musayaraat, there are instances of Syedna Qazi Noman performing the Sajdo to his Imam AS.

Yes, would you publish relevant passage from the book where it shows Qadi Noman performing sujood to Imam? Thank you.

HOWEVER, one important issue that wasn't pointed out before this is:
In the beginning of this thread, murtaza2152, a devout Dawoodi Bohra scanned an image from the page of the Chapter of Kitab al Himmah about the Sajda.
The chapter is self explanatory on the justification of the sajda (as mentioned before, Line 8/9) this is final.
BUT there is a mistake in line 12 in the printed version (which murtaza2152 may not have known about), which no-one has pointed out, grammatically it makes no sense, but the Proggies are keen to keep shut as it "may" help there cause.

This was a post by porus :

by porus on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:24 pm
Let me translate several more relevant sentences from the passage:
وقال: لا تسجدوا إلا لله
فاإنما نهى عز و جل عن السجود لأحد من دونه يتخذه إلها معبودا| فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه
And He (Allah) said: "Do not prostrate (do sujood) to anyone other than Allah"
Thus, Azza wa Jal (Allah) has forbidden sujood to anyone except Himself and who (that anyone other than Allah) is taken as a god to be worshipped (ma'abood). As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (to other than Allah), that is also forbidden.

I must agree, porus translation is correct, except for this part, the main part :

The ARABIC text : فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه (translated:As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (to other than Allah), that is also forbidden), is WRONG. Thus porus s translation is also wrong in this manner, he kind of "skips" that part in his translation.
I confirmed from another manuscript, the text is actually :

فاما السجود تعظيما له فلم ينه عنه
Translation : As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (the Imam), it is NOT forbidden.

Why is this NEW version of the text correct?
Mainly, because the word ينه says it all. It's فهم vs فلم
-The root نهى (past tense: forbid) has a present test ينهى. The only way ينهى can turn into ينه is if there is a negative لم before it. So it cannot be فهم, rather it is فلم.
- Also, if it were فهم meaning "they", the verb should be in plural. Either They forbade (past) نهوا or they forbid (present) ينهون. Since the word is ينه and not it any other tense, I am inclined to believe the NEW version is correct. Anyone with knowledge of Arabic Grammar would agree.

This is an excellent observation and I accept that it is most likely a printing error and that it should be "فاما السجود تعظيما له فلم ينه عنه" and not "فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه".

However, let us look at the next sentence. "الذي نهى عنه رسول الله اليه من اقتدى في ذلك. It says that "However, Messenger of Allah forbade his followers to perform it (sujood) for him (Rasulullah). Now, the question is why would the Prophet forbid what Allah has supposedly allowed?

The reason becomes clear if you read previous sentences. Qadi Noman describes past practices and even quotes 'sajda' of Yusuf's father and his brothers to him. The reason he does that is to clearly indicate the break from past practices by stating that "(Allah) said, 'Do not perform sujood except to Allah". When he saw Abyssinians performing sujood to their kings, the Prophet forbade his followers to follow suit. Prophet did that to clearly show that although in the past these practices were not forbidden, it was now forbidden.

Later in the passage, Qadi Noman says:



" I did not say that we perform sujood to Imams nor that they ordered us to bless them with sujood to them. But it is the kissing of the earth in front of him (that we perform)."

[fearAllah]

It all started with qadambosi (kissing feet) of Dai many years ago, at that time many followers of Allah, Prophet (SAW) and Ahlal-bayt tried to advise us bohoras that it was a shirk but we were not prepared to listen to anyone, we ignored the quran, the teachings of rasool and ahlal-bayt, and blindly believed only the Dai and whatever he decided. Years down the line we can see now that this shirk which was created originaly to offer sign of slavery/obidience only to the Dai is now done to almost everyone in his royal family including his far relatives too!!

In the same manner, the concept of Sajda (Haram and greatest shirk) has been introduced in our era by the Dai. It is only done to the Dai right now and years from now it will be done to many in his family like what happened with Qadambosi act.

People please don’t let the love of Allah, Quran, Prophets and ahlal-bayt leave your hearts, fear the day of Qayamat, these shirks are man made and condemned by the Rasool (SAW) and Moulana Ali, why do you underestimate them and rather blindly seek second hand knowledge from Dai? It is an insult to the struggles and teachings of Rasool and Ahle-bayt.

Same like the Qadambosi shirk, one day your kids will be performing sajdas to all of the royal family, I know its difficult to realize all they are trying his best to turn you all away from Allah, I was amongst you all before but the light of Allah rescued me from all these sins, fear the day of Qayamat where you will be standing infront of Allah, how will you face? All Prophets and Ahlal-bayt will be present there too….

Allah I pray for you to rescue these people from the dirty tricks, Inshallah!

[porus]

This is an excellent observation and I accept that it is most likely a printing error and that it should be "فاما السجود تعظيما له فلم ينه عنه" and not "فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه".

I omitted the translation of the corrected sentence "فاما السجود تعظيما له فلم ينه عنه".

It is, "But the sujood of respect for him was not forbidden". This is in the past tense. This is then overridden by the following sentence that comes later:

وقال: لا تسجدوا إلا لله

This is in the present tense. It says. "He said, "Do not do sajda except to Allah".

[Conscíous]

Adam, thank you for taking the time to answer my question.. I really appreciate..

@BooM

So what is Halal in this life ( like "Sajda to the Dai") is Halal in the hereafter right ??
And from what I have understood about the Sajda is; Sajda to Allah is not the same as the Sajda to the Dai because, Sajda to the Dai is kissing the ground/earth right??
Now can you please explain me, how will you perform your Sajda to the Dai, if there is no ground/earth to kiss in the afterlife ??

What a senseless argument. Either you have completely not understood Fatimid belief, or purposely distorting the facts to confuse. Your first statement is correct
Yes, "what is Halal in this life is Halal in the hereafter".
Yes, Heaven wont have a physical form, and according to what you said, there wont be "earth". I never said that.. you have missed the "IF" my friend
My rhetoric answer :
So isn't Namaaz also a act in this world? I have really never thought about it.. Maybe porus/anajmi/muslimfirst can enlighten us, what the Quran stats about praying Namaaz in the hereafter ..
So how do we perform Sajda in Namaaz in the afterlife is there is no earth to pray on? Why do we have to pray, when Allah will be right infront of us??
Or the fruits mentioned in the Quran, how can they "grow", if there is no earth to grow from? Do you seriously think, that you abdes are going to that side of heaven, were the grass is green,?? where the birds will be flying,??and the lions & elefants will be roaming free,?? And If I go according to your logic, Syedna Saheb will be also killing animals for fun in heaven right?? since it is halal for him to kill very big animals for fun here on earth??

You don't need to answer this question, it's just to state how twisted your mind is.

[anajmi]

Maybe porus/anajmi/muslimfirst can enlighten us, what the Quran stats about praying Namaaz in the hereafter ..

The Quran doesn't say anything about salah in the hereafter. However, traditions state that the residents of heaven will be blessed with Allah's eternal pleasure. Hence, maybe the requirement of salah, which on earth is to earn Allah's pleasure, won't be there.

[Adam]

The following answers are to anajmi and porus together. In my opinion, they are referring to almost the same thing. If I've left anything out, please let me know.

@porus In reference to the Sajda to Adam AS, that is was a "Command"

I wrote earlier:

I'll be repeating the same point over and over again. Command or out of respect, the Sajdo was given to a Human. That fact always stays the same.
If you say it was purely out of respect to the "command" "order" of Allah. Whether it was a test of faith, or whatever it may be. Allah would never order anyone to do anything that is forbidden or haraam, for whatever reason.
Quran Surah A'raaf Ayah 28
وَإِذَا فَعَلُواْ فَاحِشَةً قَالُواْ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَآ آبَاءَنَا وَٱللَّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا قُلْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لاَ يَأْمُرُ بِٱلْفَحْشَآءِ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
And when they commit a Fahisha , they say: "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has commanded us of it." Say: "Nay, Allah never commands of Fahisha. Do you say of Allah what you know not?

So when the Sajda to Adam AS was an order from Allah to the angels, it was completely "lawful", and thus not "forbidden", thus, the point of Sajdo to a human is justified.

And then porus replied

faaHisha = harlot, whore, prostitute; monstrosity, abomination, atrocity, vile deed, crime; adultery, fornication,whoredom

faHshaa:u means the same as faaHisha

Sajda is not in the category of ‘faaHisha’. So, this ayat does not apply to sajda.

Frankly, I was expecting you to "latch" on to the word "Fahisha" and divert from the topic.

I used this Ayat as an example, that Allah would NEVER command ANYONE (angels, humans) to do anything that was wrong, un-lawful, against tawheed, fahisha etc etc etc etc
So, why would he COMMAND the angels of doing something that was wrong? ie, why would he Command them to give Sajda to a Human if it was wrong ( if it was only for Allah)?

I later discussed why some Human Prophets deserve this respect (Sajdo), even though they are Humans. Again, I was merely using the below ayat as an example to show that even though they are Humans, they are special/different. And what applies to a "normal" Human in terms of respect, doesn't apply to them
Here it is again :

Adam wrote:
As stated for example in the Quran.
قالت لهم رسلهم ان نحن الا بشر مثلكم ولكن الله يمن على من يشاء من عباده
(Surah Ibrahim Ayah 11)
11. Their Messengers said to them: "We are no more than human beings like you, but Allah bestows His Grace to whom He wills of His slaves

------------------------------
@anajmi

The Quran has also prohibited sajda to anyone except Allah and the Quran was revealed for mankind and not the angels.

1. So it's okay for the Angels to do it?
2. The story of Yusuf in the Quran allows it.
3. The Sajda in the Quran to other than Allah, and in the context where Rasulullah SAW disapproves of the sajda to the King of Habashah (Kitab al Himmah), is because they either considered him a God in place of Allah, or they did not believe in Allah, thus they weren't giving Sajda where it needed to be. On the other hand, believing in Allah first, then belief in his rightful Prophets, and giving Sajdo to them is no issue. (Surah Yusuf)

-------------------------------
In reference to the line from the passage (line 8-9)?
لا يرون من قبل الارض في صلواته ساجدا حتى يأتى بحقيقة السجود على جهته و أنفه و ينويه نية سجوده على أنه لو سجد ساجد لولى من أولياء الله إعظاما للله لم يكن ذلك بمنكر
@Porus

Would you translate this line for us especially the last words "lam yakun dhalika bi-munkar"? The latter means that whatever it was, it was not considered undesirable. It refers to practise before Islam.

If you read the chapter from the beginning till this sentence, it is not talking about any practice before Islam, (Furthermore, straight after that, he justifies why the sajdo is NOT wrong, by referring to the story of Yusuf AS, and stright away re-confirms the point by saying فلم يعب ذلك من فعلهم (Translation: He (Allah) did not disapprove of their deed - (Sajdo) The part where Syedna Qazi Noman quotes from the Quran about Sajdo to the Sun, then gives an example from history where Rasullah SAW says No to the King of Habashah is actually in a sentence AFTER that. He also clarifies why the Sajdo to the Sun and to the king of Habashah was wrong, it is because they considered the Sun, or the Kind, God/Allah.

Coming back to the Arabic text :
Syedna Qazi Noman RA is actually referring to the fact in a very general perspective, or to the present Imams time , for he goes on to say على أنه لو سجد ساجد لولي من أولياء الله إعظاما للله لم يكن ذلك بمنكر, (Translation: Furthermore, if a person gives sajdo to a wali from Awliya-Allah, with Tazeem to Allah, it is NOT wrong. Where the words لولي من أولياء الله generalize whom the Sajdo can be performed to, a wali , a rightful wali for that matter, but it definitely means a human being.

So I repeat, it does NOT "refer to practice before Islam." Rather he is talking about the ritual in general (past & presesnt - if you may).
---------------------------
In reference to the part :

فاإنما نهى عز و جل عن السجود لأحد من دونه يتخذه إلها معبودا| فاما السجود تعظيما له فلم ينه عنه
Translation : As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (the Imam), it is NOT forbidden.
@anajmi

However, let us look at the next sentence. "الذي نهى عنه رسول الله اليه من اقتدى في ذلك. It says that "However, Messenger of Allah forbade his followers to perform it (sujood) for him (Rasulullah). Now, the question is why would the Prophet forbid what Allah has supposedly allowed?

I have clarified this above.
It basically means, the Sujood to an Imam with tazeem to Allah is NOT forbidden. But, the sujood that IS forbidden is the Sujood to someone with belief that that person is Allah (in reference to the Story of Rasullah and the Abyssinians, (he gives the reason for it) because they were Zoroastrians and did not believe in Allah & considered their king to be a deity).

This is the fine line I was referring to. The Sajdo is allowed ONLY with the right belief in Allah and his Prophets, otherwise it is forbidden. This is the belief of the true Dawoodi Bohras.

Prophet did that to clearly show that although in the past these practices were not forbidden, it was now forbidden.

The Prophet showed WHY he forbade the Abyssinians, because they did not believe in Allah (as stated above).

in the past these practices were not forbidden, it was now forbidden.

I repeat what i've said earlier. This is incorrect. It is the true Fatimi Ismaili belief. What was Halal then is Halal now. What was Haraam then is Haraam now in Islam. All the Prophets were sent from the same Allah. And Allah will never change his ways.
If it were a practice in the Abyssinians, that is because they misunderstood the true message, and elevated their kings to the place of Allah, NOT because their Prophet taught them so.

In the book, al Majalis al Musayaraat, there are instances of Syedna Qazi Noman performing the Sajdo to his Imam AS.

It is the FOURTH topic in the book, page 57 in the printed version.
The part is titled 4 جواب عن سؤال في مسايرة
Unfortunately I don't have it scanned. The entire topic discusses the Sajdo and "Taqbeel al Ard" - in relating to a story about Taqbeel al Ard to Imam Mansoor AS and how Imam Moiz AS explains why a believer MUST do it. It argues against those who do not approve of it. It is a long discussion, he also discusses the story of Sajdo to Yusuf AS again.

NOW. What is important to note, is that Syedna Qazi Noman as clearly defined/seperated two deeds in both Kitab al Himmah & Majalis al Musayaraat.
1. Sajda
2. Taqbeel al Ard (Kissing the earth before the Imam)

The basic difference (as defined by him), is the position of the hands and feet in Sajda. In in "Taqbeel al Ard", the kissing of the ground, which is not a part of the Sajda.

In both is writings, he empahises on the "Taqbeel al Ard" more as common ritual. BUT as stated in line 7-8 in Kitab al Himmah (and clarified by me), he clearly states that Sajda is also allowed to a Human being (wali), UNDER THE CORRECT CONDITIONS (ie not considering the person Allah).

We as Dawoodi Bohras practice both (under the given conditions), according to the guidance of Syedna Qazi Noman RA.

I have truly accepted that whatever the argument, you may never accept the truth. It is your belief to do so.
I am just stating the facts, and our core beliefs.

This keen interest anajmi is showing in Syedna Qazi Noman RA : does that mean you'll consider him a authentic source of belief?
If I may repeat my same burning question:
What is the base of your religion? Who is your leader? After the Quran Majeed what texts do you use as guidance?

[anajmi]

Your entire argument is idiotic. I will let porus deal with you in a more sensible way. I will be more crass.

Allah didn't command anything unlawful. Just like you abdes have different kinds of sajdas, Allah has different kinds of sajdas. One of his sajda is from the Angels to prophet Adam (as). This sajda is lawful for the angels, because it was a sajda for the angels. The other kind of sajda is from a human to a human. This kind of sajda is haraam. The third kind of sajda is from humans to Allah. This is the only halal sajda for humans.

So
sajda-e-phokatiya - haraam
sajda-e-darpokiya - haraam
sajda-e-biwiya - haraam
sajda-e-sasuya - haraam
sajda-e-humaniya - haraam
Sajda of angels to prophet Adam (as) - halal
Sajda of humans to Allah - halal.

The story of Yusuf in the Quran allows it.

It does not allow it. It is narrating the story of Yusuf (as). Allah narrates the story of Musa (as) and Khidr (as) where Khidr killed people who hadn't committed any crime yet. Does that mean killing people before they commit a crime is allowed? Which moron is teaching you the Quran?

One other question I have asked abdes before but didn't receive an answer. How many times have you performed this sajda of respect to your parents. Respect for the parents is a command of Allah in the Quran. But I guarantee it that none of you abde idiots do this sajda to your parents.

The Prophet showed WHY he forbade the Abyssinians, because they did not believe in Allah (as stated above).

Now that is an idiotic statement. If they didn't believe in Allah, then why would they listen to the prophet of Allah? Only the believers listen to the prophet (saw). And you abdes do not!!