The True Imam - How would you verify?

[progticide]

The most active respondent on this topic from the proggy brigade is Anajmi. What bigger irony could there be? Anajmi is debating on a topic of Imam's identity verification.

Does it still require further proof that the progressive scholars have lost this debate miserably. Indeed, the prog movement is a farce.

[humanbeing]

Hi Adam / Progiticide


What is your public opinion on question expressed here….


What exactly is the objection / apprehension with providing Accounts of Funds ?


By what justification / logic / reason…. presenting accounts is to undermine authority of sayedna saheb ?

[progticide]

Are Bhai, koi proggy bacha hai bhai!!!

Porus - Dont know where he is hiding? Maybe still surfing through the vast collection of Fatimi literature in his possession to find out the appropriate response to the above questions.

Doctor Mubarak - Replies on the PM, but when I ask him to post his answer on the forum, he chicken's out.

S Insaf - Probably singing somewhere "Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala" after witnessing the pathetic performance of his proggy counterparts on this topic

[profastian]

Are Bhai, koi proggy bacha hai bhai!!!

Porus - Dont know where he is hiding? Maybe still surfing through the vast collection of Fatimi literature in his possession to find out the appropriate response to the above questions.

Doctor Mubarak - Replies on the PM, but when I ask him to post his answer on the forum, he chicken's out.

S Insaf - Probably singing somewhere "Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala" after witnessing the pathetic performance of his proggy counterparts on this topic

Hasn't Doctor Mubarak replied already. He has the foolproof test of conversation in all 'ancient and exotic languages'

[anajmi]

Actually, I don't understand the point. The uselessness of the Dai was proven beyond any doubt on the very first page of this topic. The misinterpretation of the Quran by the Dai to fool the abdes was demonstrated on the fourth page. The case is now closed. I do not think serving your bruised ego serves any purpose on this thread. Let us move onto the next one now.

[Humsafar]

anajmi, don't deprive him of his little game. He loves shooting paper tigers with toy guns. And his other abde brother, Adam, he loves shooting paper dinosaurs (auhtority, source, beliefs etc.). This is the only game they know and it thrills them to bits when they play it. Let the little boys have their fun. Given their dismal life filled with matam, wajebat and idol worhip we should not grudge them their little outing in the Freedom Park!!!

[Adam]

Actually, there is no interpretation required because the Quran makes it completely clear beyond any doubt.

Well, the Quran does say "Imam" and not "Kitab" so, we need to ask Ahl Al Zikr for the correct Tafseer.

You don't have any Ahl al Zikr, so you have no one to go to. Sad story.

[SBM]

Actually, there is no interpretation required because the Quran makes it completely clear beyond any doubt.

Well, the Quran does say "Imam" and not "Kitab" so, we need to ask Ahl Al Zikr for the correct Tafseer.

You don't have any Ahl al Zikr, so you have no one to go to. Sad story.

No Adam, we as Muslims have lot of Ahl Al Zikr Sadly Abde Regressives only have one, the one who needs the help of his Diwan to turn the pages.sorry to put it bluntly.

[anajmi]

Well, the Quran does say "Imam" and not "Kitab" so, we need to ask Ahl Al Zikr for the correct Tafseer.

وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ كِتَابًا (78:29

Nothing could be more clear. Thank you. Your Ahl Al Zikr has confused you.

[Adam]

Nothing could be more clear. Thank you.

Nope, still isn't.

1. Why didn't that specific ayat say "Kitab e Mobeen", instead of "Imam"
2. وكل شيئ احصيناه كتابا - According to you, it says "Kitab", which "Book" is that?
The Quran or the Book of deeds.
The verse doesn't specify, you'll need to refer to the Tafseer, and follow one particular argument.
It all comes down to authority.

Your Ahl Al Zikr has confused you.

Nope, its crystal clear to me. You don't have one.
Anyway, who is your Ahl al Zikr? (Your mosque Imam)
Or do you think the Quran ordered you to ask someone that doesn't exist?

Sad story

[anajmi]

Nope, still isn't.

It will never be for you. Allah gives hidaya to whomever he chooses and you have been chosen to remain confused.

Why didn't that specific ayat say "Kitab e Mobeen", instead of "Imam"

For the sake of emphasis. Besides, it doesn't matter cause what this ayah says is explained by the other ayah. Also, take a look at Muslim First's posting on the other thread. Not that it will become clear for you, cause you have been chosen to remain ignorant.

2. وكل شيئ احصيناه كتابا - According to you, it says "Kitab", which "Book" is that?
The Quran or the Book of deeds.

The question displays your ignorance about the Quran as well as book of deeds. Both are a part of a bigger book. Go talk to your Dai and see if he can tell you the answer. If not, then come to me!! I will give you the answer from the Quran. I cannot guarantee that it will clear your confusion, because undoing what the Dai has done to you might take a lot of work.

Nope, its crystal clear to me.

and earlier you said

Nope, still isn't.

I was right on the mark when I said that your ahl al zikr has confused the heck out of you.

It all comes down to authority.

Unfortunately for you, the authority you have chosen has confused you so much that you now do not understand even a language that you do understand. May Allah protect us all from such false authority!!

[progticide]

Anajmi,
If you ever went to a school, do you remember how many times did you get thrown out of the class for your nonsense of calling your Class Teacher a Conductor?

If you didnt call a Class Teacher a Conductor, or a Doctor a Watchman, then which idiot taught you to translate Imam as Kitab.

For all you know, you may be calling your own father "Uncle".

[Adam]

The question displays your ignorance about the Quran as well as book of deeds. Both are a part of a bigger book.

Which books is this? (you might be referring to the لوح محفوظ )
If it were this book your referring to, why did the Quran just say "Kitab" and not refer exactly to it? في لوح مبين or something like that.
Now according to you we have 3 books. The Quran, the book of deeds and the "bigger book"
How did YOU (without any authority or Ahl al Zikr) decide that the word "Kitab" in this ayat refers specifically to the "bigger book". (Did the ayat refer you to the other ayat and tell you to look it up there?)

Every word "Kitab" means a different book? How are we to know the difference?

Concluding, for each idea that you generate, you have followed an Authority on the Quran (a Tafseer, Ahl al Zikr), so it all comes down to Authority and who it is. (Imam of your local Mosque?)

I agree with Progticide:

If you didnt call a Class Teacher a Conductor, or a Doctor a Watchman, then which idiot taught you to translate Imam as Kitab.

Anyway, who is your Ahl al Zikr? (Your mosque Imam)
Or do you think the Quran ordered you to ask someone that doesn't exist?

Sad story

[anajmi]

then which idiot taught you to translate Imam as Kitab.

It is a pity that you idol worshippers are now calling even Allah himself names. Shame on you. Your conversion into kuffars is complete. Allah himself has taught me this in the Quran in Surah 78 ayah number 29 and numerous other related ayahs.

If it were this book your referring to, why did the Quran just say "Kitab" and not refer exactly to it? في لوح مبين or something like that.

Atleast we now agree that the Quran is referring to a book. Thank you for accepting that. Even in 36:12, Allah uses the word "wanaktubu". You cannot write in a "clear human Imam" can you? But you can write in a "clear book Imam". So you see, your Ahl Al Zikr has confused you.

Now according to you we have 3 books.

hmmm, if we can have dozens of Imams and tens of Dais, why can't we have three books?? Infact we have more than 3 books mentioned in the Quran. We have the Zaboor, the Taurat and the Injeel as well.

How did YOU (without any authority or Ahl al Zikr) decide that the word "Kitab" in this ayat refers specifically to the "bigger book". (Did the ayat refer you to the other ayat and tell you to look it up there?)

I didn't decide anything. The Quran itself is pretty clear. The book referred to in this ayah is the book of records and not the "bigger book". The book of records and all other books are a part of the "bigger book". Hasn't your ahl al zikr taught you anything? Not that I trust him to teach you anything that may actually benefit you in the hereafter!!

Every word "Kitab" means a different book? How are we to know the difference?

You should try and understand the Quran instead of doing maatam and singing ghanoo jeevo all the time. That way you will know which book is referred to and when.

I agree with Progticide:

That is the problem. If people like this idiot are your ahl al zikr then may Allah have mercy on you.

[anajmi]

It is unfortunate, but I have to conclude that the entire community of abde idiots has been chosen by Allah to remain ignorant of the Quran. That is the reason why they are unable to understand even the most straight forward ayahs of the Quran and they have to go to this Ahl Al Zikr who is taking them for a ride. So it won't matter how many times or in how many different ways I explain it, they will remain ignorant.

Hence, on this thread, I will leave them alone, those who choose to remain ignorant!!

[Muslim First]

Adam

Please read this

Imamah in Qur’an
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=7135

[Adam]

Twisting facts again and again.

Anyway, who is YOUR Ahl al Zikr? (Your mosque Imam)
Or do you think the Quran ordered you to ask someone that doesn't exist?

[Adam]

) لا تجد قوما يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر يوادون من حاد الله ورسوله ولو كانوا آباءهم أو ابناءهم أو اخوانهم أو عشيرتهم اولئك كتب في قلوبهم الايمان وايدهم بروح منه
Mujadilah 22

If you can "write" on the heart, you can gather/collect/write in the "Imam".

Which bigger book are you referring to?
What about the Ahl al Zikr please

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

i have asked you this question several times, but you run away and hide like the coward you are.

if the true imam, who will verify himself, appears and declares that the reformists are his true followers and the dai and his abde regressives as kafirs and mushriqs, then will people like you abandon your dai and join the true followers, or abandon the true imam?

none of your usual lame excuses please...

[progticide]

Anajmi,
Read the following verses of the Holy Quran carefully and all the available translations with you of these verses, and then ask your Ahl Al Zikr how does he translate the word "Imam" with "Book" mentioned in these verses. Try replacing the word Imam with Book yourself in these verses and see if it makes any sense at all:

Holy Quran, Surah Al Baqarah (2:124)
Holy Quran, Surah Alanbiya (21:73)
Holy Quran, Surah AlSajdah (32:24)
Holy Quran, Surah Al Qasas (28:41)

Do not respond until you have completed the above activity.

[humanbeing]

The True Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah. This shuld answer your question.

But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat.

We are dependent on Dai who would lead us to introduce to Imam !! so Imam would be the one who Dai introduces to us !! But Imam is not dependent on Dai’s introduction, but we are dependent on Dai to tell us who is Imam.

So If a person introduces himself to bohra, that he is true Imam, we need to look at Dai for confirmation because we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to identify Imam !! But Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah to prove his identity !!

[Adam]

@Mustafa
Thank you for bringing us back to the topic (its very common for it to be diverted mostly by "the opposition". The majority of the time we were discussing Imamat with those who don't even accept its foundation!)

Coming back to the topic:
Al Zulfiqars question (i'm not sure if he's serious or not), because according to what he said, "if the Imam says that the proggies are correct" brings upon Mustafas correct question - How to verify the true Imam?

Who will verify if this Imam is the true one?

Very simply & short, it was the Imam who appointed the Dai as the leader for the followers. So, on his return it will be the Dai who introduces the people to the Imam. For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?
Its all one link that isn't broken.
This is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

I refer to the first Satr of the 3 Mastoor Imams.
When Imam Mehdi AS finally did Zuhoor, it was Dai Abi Abdillah who said to the followers in Sijimasa "This is your Imam".

[Muslim First]

Very simply & short, it was the Imam who appointed the Dai as the leader for the followers. So, on his return it will be the Dai who introduces the people to the Imam. For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?
Its all one link that isn't broken.
This is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

Ya but he will have to contend with 3 claimants. Or may be 4

DB Dai- or Doctor in Udepur
Alvi Daiand Imam hazir himself- Aga khan

IS 1 Millian Db's Daisay right one? or he hos not with nass acoording to 10000 Progs.
50,000 Alvis will say their Dai is right one.
And 10 millian Aga khanis will totally reject him.
And what about 12vers?

Confusion Confusion Adam Bhai?
dont't you think all bohra sect should sit down and decide which Dai is correct one?
Don't you think differnt sects of Shias should have a grand conference to decide which imam is right one?

[Muslim First]

For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?

In Islam you do not need to pray to Prophet to reach to Allah.
You can pray directly to Allah

[Adam]

Ya but he will have to contend with 3 claimants. Or may be 4

It doesn't matter whether they accept it or not. He is our true Imam. Simple as that.

For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?

I meant it in BOTH ways.
1. The the Prophet we reach Allah.
2. Through his teachings and guidance we learn of Allah

The same way, through the Dai we will learn of the Imam.

No confusion. Crystal clear.
@Mustafa - I answered this for you Hope all is well

[ghulam muhammed]

@ Adam,

Your question was 'The True Imam - How would you verify" ? As per your belief you need someone to identify him which according to you is the bohra dai ALONE. Now what about the Prophet (s.a.w.) and other Prophets ? Did he need another person to identify himself in order to claim prophethood ? Did people believe in him only on assurances given by a third person ? The same goes for Imam also. The Imam if any will not be 'mohtaj' of a corrupt dai to establish his credibility, he himself will be of such immaculate character that the world will gradually accept him. You are undermining the Imam's credibility by claiming that he needs someone of a much lower rank to prove himself. A great person doesnt need to resort to such tactics.

[Adam]

@Gulam
These are my answers, according to my belief. You please answer according to yours.

Your question was 'The True Imam - How would you verify" ? As per your belief you need someone to identify him which according to you is the bohra dai ALONE.

Yes, that's what I said. I don't know/don't care how the Proggies will identify him.

Now what about the Prophet (s.a.w.) and other Prophets ? Did he need another person to identify himself in order to claim prophethood ? Did people believe in him only on assurances given by a third person ? The same goes for Imam also.

If you read up your history, people knew of the Prophets comings from before, texts and people knew about it. The "True Christians" knew about it. So, he was referred to by them.
Yes, the Prophet did do miracles and by seeing this, people were convinced, that may also be possible.

But according to OUR DAWOODI BOHRA BELIEF, as we are a community with a leader, our leader will guide us, just as the leader Dai Abi Abdillah guided his followers during the first Satr

he himself will be of such immaculate character that the world will gradually accept him.

True enough. The world (Proggies and other sects) will gradually accept him, but we will accept right at the beginning, as our Dai guides us!

You are undermining the Imam's credibility by claiming that he needs someone of a much lower rank to prove himself. A great person doesnt need to resort to such tactics.

Don't misquote. The guidance of the Dai isn't to "prove" the Imam. It is to guide them towards the true Imam. Just like the Prophets guided mankind towards Allah. (They couldn't do it without them).

There it is. The Dawoodi Bohra belief - The Dai will guide his followers and proclaim the True Imam.


-----------------------------------------
Since i've been such a good sport, now back to you. GULAM.

Please explain your Proggy belief of the verification of the Imam.
Firstly, do you believe in an Imam? Do you believe an Imam will come forth? And how will you verify?
If you are a follower of Fatimid belief, please quote your references too

[progticide]

As Adam has spelt it out in no uncertain or ambiguous words that the Dai-e-Mutlaq'a word would be final for the mainstream DBs in the matter of identification of the True Imam, there is no room for any debate as far as mainstream DB doctrine on this subject is concerned.

The mainstream DB stand on this is singular, united and clear, has always been and will always remain. Dai-e-Mutlaq would guide us to the True Imam.

Now, let's see if the progressives can come up with their singular & unanimously accepted doctrine on the above subject.

[porus]

I imagine that the first act of the Dai al-Mutlaq when he introduces his Imam to abdes will be to prostrate before him, considering that ayat 36:12 for them means that the entire universe, including Allah Himself, is vested in the Imam.

Does not the Quran command to prostrate before Allah only? Then why should not all 'true' Muslims prostrate before Imam, and, in Imam's satr, the Dai. We must read 36:12 to mean "kull shayy ahsayna-hu fi Dai mubeen". That is why abdes prostrate before the Dai because the entire universe, including Allah Himself, is vested in the Dai. (36:12)

Proggies, being the most obdurate species destined to travel the path of 'ghayr seerat al-mustaqeem' will immediately denounce the Imam who accepts sujood from the Dai as 'Mushrik', because they, being incorrigible and damned lot, do not understand the meaning of ayat 36:12.

Now is the time to end this discussion. "qad tabayyana ar-rushdu min al-ghayy" (2:256)

[Humsafar]

Hello abde boys, looks like you're having a good time playing with your paper toys, eh! It just occurred to me, if the Prophet of Islam needed no introduction from anyone why would the Imam need one? And that too from someone with an inferior rank? I'm sure you boys have some more paper taawil toys to explain that but please spare us. That was just a rhetorical question.
As for identifying the Imam, here's the deal: I'll accept (can't speak for all reformists) the Imam that the Dai introduces. Then I'll tell the Imam all the naughty things the Dai and his spoilt kids are doing. If the Imam agrees and does something about it then he will be a true Imam. If he does not, he will be a false Imam, then you abdes boys, your Dai and the Imam can continue playing with your paper toys and I, for one, will have nothing to do with you bullies. Then all the scripture will not be worth the paper they are written on. So to make it a tad bit interesting, I'll make boats out of all the scriptures, place all your Ahl Al Zikr in them and float then down the river!!!