The True Imam - How would you verify?

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Adam
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#181

Unread post by Adam » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:36 am

Hello abde boys, looks like you're having a good time playing with your paper toys, eh! It just occurred to me, if the Prophet of Islam needed no introduction from anyone why would the Imam need one? And that too from someone with an inferior rank?

It may have just occurred to you, but it has already been discussed above.

This is in fact an answer to Gulam who himself is waiting for his Imam. If you have a problem with the concept of the Imam, why don't you take it up with him?

@PORUS
Thanks for you comment. I'm not too sure what the conclusion was.
Does not the Quran command to prostrate before Allah only? Then why should not all 'true' Muslims prostrate before Imam, and, in Imam's satr, the Dai.

The Quran also talks about the Sajda to Adam and Yusuf. Please take it to the other thread.

That is why abdes prostrate before the Dai because the entire universe, including Allah Himself, is vested in the Dai. (36:12)

Allah excluded.
Allah doesn't come under "شئي"

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#182

Unread post by porus » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:25 am

Adam wrote:
The Quran also talks about the Sajda to Adam and Yusuf.
Indeed, it does. Can you relate those Quran incidents to to ayat 41:37?

Specifically, would you consider both Adam and Yusuf to be ayats of Allah? What about the Imam who is now in satr? Is he an ayat?

Is there anything in the universe that is not an ayat of Allah?

progticide
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#183

Unread post by progticide » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:26 am

Everytime the so-called proggy scholars have posted a response on this thread, they have sought to derail the topic under discussion.

Porus is no different. The topic is on verification of the identity of the True Imam and like an idiot Prof. Poo (porus) is back to discussing the issue of sajda to Dai, Imam etc. on this thread. And I am absolutely sure that some greater idiots from the proggy club would soon join the bandwagon and drag the topic on Sajda and all the regular nonsense which is anything but related to this topic on verifying the True Imam.

What more proof is needed that the Proggy club is devoid of any firm doctrine that would provide a rational explanation to the identification of the True Imam when he makes an appearance to the public.

Adam
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#184

Unread post by Adam » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:10 am

Very well said Progticide.
I did mention to take the Sajda topic to another thread.
The Progs have no base to any claims.
This is what I had posted earlier:

There it is. The Dawoodi Bohra belief - The Dai will guide his followers and proclaim the True Imam.
-----------------------------------------
Since i've been such a good sport, now back to you. GULAM.
Please explain your Proggy belief of the verification of the Imam.
Firstly, do you believe in an Imam? Do you believe an Imam will come forth? And how will you verify?
If you are a follower of Fatimid belief, please quote your references too

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#185

Unread post by porus » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:08 am

porus wrote: Just as Imam Mahdi made a forceful appearance in Ifriqiya long ago, the current Imam will similarly make an appearance and will establish his claim on the basis of his own personal authority. He will not need any Dai to make people recognize him.

(On the last point, if the Imam himself cannot offer evidence for his own authority, the person with an equal or higher authority, a Prophet, must do it for him. This was the case with Yahya and Isa as well as with Muhammad and Ali).
Adam,

Progs have already answered questions regarding verification of the Imam. I have reproduced above my first response on the issue which is located on page 2 of this thread. Only the Imam will set the 'game' up involving his identity.

I perfectly understand the scenario that you are envisaging and I shall be interested in identification of a an authentic Fatimid/Tayyibi reference (pre-Hurrat al Malika) which underpins your belief that only the Dai can identify the 'true' Imam.

You tell us that 'everything in the universe', according to ayat 36:12, is vested in the 'true' Imam. You also appear to be telling us that, in the absence of Imam in satr, 'everything in the universe' in vested in the Dai. Please confirm that last sentence.

Now to your scenario. Say, Imam decides to make an appearance. Here is a person in whom everything in the universe including 'authority' is vested and he has a problem. He is not going to be able to make abdes believe that he is the Imam? Abdes look at the Imam and then look at the Dai, Imam's rival in authority, to confirm what the Imam is saying? So, who, in that case, has the higher authority, Imam or Dai?

What would the Dai do? He will follow the protocol that he has established. He would prostrate in front of the Imam, wouldn't he?

That is why sujood is an important issue in connection with the identity of the Imam. If he declines the sujood of the Dai, he would be the 'true' Imam. Otherwise he would be a false Imam. If you disagree, then relate ayat 41:37 to sujood offered to Adam and, as you believe, sujood to Yusuf.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#186

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:28 am

porus,

Your line of argument is based upon your interpretation of the Quran. Remember, it was the Imams that started this concept of human Sajda and kissing of the earth in the feet and whatnot. Why then would this Imam, identified by the Dai, refuse a sajda? And by the way, no Imam identified by the Dai will be the true Imam. The true Imam will first rid us of false authority. I will recognize an Imam if he spanks the Dai and kothari goons. That is how I will recognize the true Imam.

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#187

Unread post by porus » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:19 pm

anajmi wrote:Your line of argument is based upon your interpretation of the Quran. Remember, it was the Imams that started this concept of human Sajda and kissing of the earth in the feet and whatnot. Why then would this Imam, identified by the Dai, refuse a sajda?
Qadi Noman in his Kitabul Himma recommends kissing of earth in front of Imam but not sujood. I am not convinced that Imam would agree to or approve this innovation (earth kissing). In fact, Qadi Noman got the idea from another book that he had read.

If Imam is held out to be abdes as Natiq-e-Quran, it would be strange if he would allow sujood to himself and, if he did, I agree that in that case he would be a false Imam.

What we have witnessed in this thread is the complete closure of abde minds as a result of sabaq attendance. Sabaqs do not encourage questioning. That would be too confrontational. In sabaqs, abdes express thanks for crumbs of what they believe is 'protected' knowledge and lap it up without thinking. And they come here to confront proggies about their oh so superior knowledge. An unmitigated arrogance, par excellence!

As Adam would say, "A sad story".

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#188

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:35 pm

It is indeed a sad story. The Dai has filled it in the shrunken heads of the abde idiots that only he can identify the true Imam. What this means is that he has simply made sure that only his appointee gets the glory. He doesn't want anyone other than his own appointee to be raised to the level of the Imam. He wants to be in full control and wants a figure head Imam to be in place to control the abde idiots.

Adam
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#189

Unread post by Adam » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:16 pm

PORUS
There are many flaws in your statements.
You have to stick to one stand point. Either you believe that there is an Imam present or not. (You've made it very clear that you don't beleive in the Imamat after the Panjatan, so all YOUR probablities of IF the Imam returns, don't mean a thing, to you, nor to me.

You also appear to be telling us that, in the absence of Imam in satr, 'everything in the universe' in vested in the Dai. Please confirm that last sentence.

The Ayat states it for the Imam.
That is our belief.

Now to your scenario. Say, Imam decides to make an appearance. Here is a person in whom everything in the universe including 'authority' is vested and he has a problem. He is not going to be able to make abdes believe that he is the Imam? Abdes look at the Imam and then look at the Dai, Imam's rival in authority, to confirm what the Imam is saying? So, who, in that case, has the higher authority, Imam or Dai?

Firstly there's no "rivalry" according to your sick arrogant mind. And there's no problem.
It is a link. (Sadly your link is broken, or never existed)
Naturally the Imam has and always will have the higher authority. The Dais role at the time is a guide towards the true Imam. As there will be many who may not believe the Imam himself, neither the Dai. The same way many didn't follow the Prophet. Their NOT believing doesn't make them right. That's just tough luck for them.

The Dais role as a guide to his followers basically saying: you were instructed to follow me by the Imam, the Imam has now returned, he is my leader and yours. (Just like Dai Abi Abdallah did)

What would the Dai do? He will follow the protocol that he has established. He would prostrate in front of the Imam, wouldn't he?

That is why sujood is an important issue in connection with the identity of the Imam. If he declines the sujood of the Dai, he would be the 'true' Imam.

Dai would perform the Sajda to his leader (The Imam), as the followers of the Dai performed Sajda to their leader (The Dai) in the past.

What we have witnessed in this thread is the complete closure of abde minds as a result of sabaq attendance. Sabaqs do not encourage questioning.

I'm not sure which Sabaq you've attended by my ones have always been about productive questioning.

Again. My Dear friend Porus and Anajmi.
I do find senseless to be debating the Imamat & Zuhoor with two people who are against the whole concept of continuing Imamat in the first place and are convinced by their own idealogies.
(Anajmi has a bad habit of interfering in convos that don't even concern him! Tells us about the kind of person he is)

It's up to the Proggies and other Imam believing people to clarify their own stance.

This thread was to discuss the verification of the Imam.
The Dawoodi Bohras have a leader and a guide who will guide them to the Imam

The Proggies better courage up to discuss their Imamate. They've been too silent.
Just shows their confusion and two-mindedness. Sad story indeed! :)

People who I THINK claim to be proggies (ie believe in the Imamat of some sort and Zuhoor etc etc etc)
S. Insaf (very quiet indeed, only when it suits him, he's a coward)
Al Zulfiqar
Gulam Mohammed

Speak up boys! Make "your" Imam proud ;)

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#190

Unread post by porus » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:27 pm

Adam wrote:PORUS
You've made it very clear that you don't beleive in the Imamat after the Panjatan, so all YOUR probablities of IF the Imam returns, don't mean a thing, to you, nor to me.
That is not correct. I do not believe that Imams after Imam Husain are infallible. Imams have continued. However, scholarly opinion favors the view that Imam al-Tayyib was done away with in infancy. Hence no Imams in his progeny exist. Unless further evidence comes forth, I think it is safe to say that Bohra Imam does not exist.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#191

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:34 pm

anajmi wrote:It is indeed a sad story. The Dai has filled it in the shrunken heads of the abde idiots that only he can identify the true Imam. What this means is that he has simply made sure that only his appointee gets the glory. He doesn't want anyone other than his own appointee to be raised to the level of the Imam. He wants to be in full control and wants a figure head Imam to be in place to control the abde idiots.
Just to continue my point -

This is precisely the reason why the jewish religious clergy rejected the prophethood of Isa (as) and then the prophethood of Muhammad (saw). They wanted a prophet from amongst themselves. They have their idiot followers convinced that unless they identify the prophet, the prophet is not the true prophet!!

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#192

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:36 pm

I do find senseless to be debating the Imamat & Zuhoor with two people who are against the whole concept of continuing Imamat in the first place
It would actually be senseless to debate with someone who agrees with you now wouldn't it? But I guess that is a concept that is alien to abde idiots.

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#193

Unread post by porus » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:37 pm

Adam wrote:
There it is. The Dawoodi Bohra belief - The Dai will guide his followers and proclaim the True Imam.
You had better be certain of what you are saying because my understanding is that no one but Imam will determine how he will be recognized. However, please do point out a Fatimi/Tayyibi book that endorses your belief.

Returning to the subject of this thread, let me summarize what most on this thread are familiar with. Remember, it is you who raised this highly speculative question which has the merit of being entertaining but not much else. I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

You have presumably read the Risala No. 24 of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin called 'dhaat al-barakaat'. In this he describes a method by which the Imam, presumably Imam al-Tayyib, made himself appear to one person outside his immediate entourage. That person was a Maghribi Sunni trader, a follower of the Maliki madhab. At that time, Imam resided in a valley in far West of North Africa surrounded by mountains and his residence was not easily accessible.

Imam had left 3 crystal glasses with his Dai in Cairo with the instruction that if the Dai desired to know the whereabouts of his Imam, he was to sell one of the crystals. The crystal would then find its way to the Imam. The crystal was bought by the above-mentioned Maghribi trader. The trader found it difficult to re-sell the crystal because it was extremely expensive. But the trader encountered an emissary of the Imam who took him to the Imam. Before the trader could say anything about the crystal, Imam described it to him displaying his 'hidden' knowledge. He then gave instructions and money to the trader to buy the remaining crystals from the Dai. That is how the Dai came to know the whereabouts of his master.

We can conclude from above that Imam does not explicitly communicate with the Dai but leaves clues by which he might be identified. Thus Imam alone will identify and verify himself. He may or may not use the Dai. In this instance a Sunni trader pointed out the Imam to the Dai. However, the entire recognition game was set up by the Imam himself.

However, let us consider how the recognition of the 'true' Imam has historically been beset with problems to the extent that even his hujjat in Yemen, Hurrat al-Malika, could not be certain whether he was dead or alive.

Following the assassination of Imam Aamir, his cousin Abdul Majid, claimed Fatimid Imamat for himself. Abdul Majid justified his accession to Imamat by claiming nass from Imam Aamir. He let the story out that al-Tayyib's birth was expected but he was not born. Later he let it be known that either his pregnant mother had died or that al-Tayyib had died in infancy.

Some scholars say that Hurratul Malika had for a short time accepted Abdul Majid as the Imam and appointed Ibrahim al-Hamidi as the Chief Dai. She later changed her mind and upheld the claim of al-Tayyib and appointed Dhuaib bin Musa as the Chief Dai. Following Hurratul Malika's death, Ibrahim al-Hamidi pledged allegiance to Dhuaib bin Musa and succeeded him as 2nd Chief Dai.

Thus it appears that we are to rely on miracles to confirm identity of Imam. If that is not available, any contender for Imamat will have to produce proof that he is legitimate descendant of all previous Imams upon whom nass was pronounced. Since that would be quite a task, we can safely say that no Imam is coming and that the Dai will continue to reign for ever and end. The Imam verification ploy is a futile, even though an entertaining, diversion.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#194

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:39 pm

This thread was to discuss the verification of the Imam.
The Dawoodi Bohras have a leader and a guide who will guide them to the Imam
The Dawoodi Bohra leader has been clearly established to have been misleading his followers with his unislamic practices. So it is safe to say that he won't be able to identify the Imam. Hence the progressive argument that the Imam will prove himself with the help of Allah is a much better proposition.

Adam
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#195

Unread post by Adam » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:11 pm

PORUS
Just to be a good sport and clarify what you've left out.
When the first Zuhoor happened, the Dai Abi Abdillah himself proclaimed to the followers "This is your Imam".
The recognition is done through the Dai.
Or, you can look at it this way. There is already an office in place (The Dais) of which the followers must solely follow him, thus the followers of this particular office can only be guided by their leader.
Maybe the Non-Dai believers have another system (i'm not sure about that).

Dawoodi Bohras will go through their leader.
Proggies? What's your system!?

PORUS
I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

I would say your need to continue this topic stops right there.
This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you :)


Humsafar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#196

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:36 pm

Excellent posts, porus. But no matter what argument you deploy or what resources you quote the Adam boy and his cohorts will not budge from the rut they are stuck in.
Ok, Abde boys, let me put this fruitless discussion to an end. I speak on behalf of all reformists: We will accept the Imam that the Dai introduces. Ok? Fine? Happy? Now stop hyperventilating and calm your nerves with some cool sharbat, and go do countless sajada to your ahl al zikr. And yes, I forgot, once we have the Imam, reformists will deal with the him directly. Then the Dai can go fly a kite.

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#197

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:50 pm

Nice try Humsafar, however let me give to you Adam's response before he does.

You will not know who the Imam is because the true Imam will be revealed by the Dai only to the true abde idiots. Since you won't know who the true Imam is, you will never be able to go directly to him.

porus
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#198

Unread post by porus » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:53 pm

Thanks, Humsafar. You are always an encouraging voice. I do not expect Adam to budge but he must me thanked for affording us all an opportunity to clarify our stance.
Adam wrote:PORUS
Just to be a good sport and clarify what you've left out.
When the first Zuhoor happened, the Dai Abi Abdillah himself proclaimed to the followers "This is your Imam".
The recognition is done through the Dai.
Or, you can look at it this way. There is already an office in place (The Dais) of which the followers must solely follow him, thus the followers of this particular office can only be guided by their leader.
Maybe the Non-Dai believers have another system (i'm not sure about that).
And let me point out what you have, I believe, purposely left out. Dai Abi Abdallah was part of Imam's entourage in satr and he knew the Imam very well. That has not been the case since 'occultation' of Imam al-Tayyib. Hence what Sayedna Taher Saifuddin described in his most likely invented story about the Maghribi trader and Imam al-Tayyib is the likely scenario. Imam will make an appearance under his own authority and will not need the Dai, and may or may not use him.

Adam wrote:PORUS
I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

I would say your need to continue this topic stops right there.
This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you :)

:) That is unlikely to happen. Anyone is entitled to offer their point of view on this forum. You should welcome the opportunity to strengthen your faith and convince people like me of your stand. After all, that is the intention of Daimul Islam.

Personally, I have invested enormous time and effort in this subject and I intend to use this forum to publish my stance on the issues. Progs, unlike abdes, differ and often disagree among themselves. That shows independence of thought. I would not want it any other way.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#199

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:11 pm

Adam wrote:If you read up your history, people knew of the Prophets comings from before, texts and people knew about it. The "True Christians" knew about it. So, he was referred to by them.
Yet the majority didnt accept his prophethood, even as per the hindus coming of kalki avatar the signs shown in their vedas point to Prophet (s.a.w.) but still they do not accept him and his religion.
Adam wrote:Yes, the Prophet did do miracles and by seeing this, people were convinced, that may also be possible.
You too say that Imam will perform miracles so it makes things much easy doesnt it ?
Adam wrote:True enough. The world (Proggies and other sects) will gradually accept him, but we will accept right at the beginning, as our Dai guides us!
This goes true ONLY if the Imam as identified by your dai turns out to be the true one and even if it does then as you say, gradually all will believe in him so it shouldnt be a problem anyway.
Adam wrote:Don't misquote. The guidance of the Dai isn't to "prove" the Imam. It is to guide them towards the true Imam. Just like the Prophets guided mankind towards Allah. (They couldn't do it without them).
Ultimately you want to prove that the Imam cant do without the dai whereas actually it should be vice versa, see what the hammering by the cult leader has made you.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#200

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:00 pm

i have a very simple stance on this non-issue.

if a corrupt dai who continues on the same path as the present one, declares that the true imam has been revealed and presents him to the abde regressives, i for one, would not accept such an imam.

it would be like dawood ibrahim, or narendra modi, or bal thackeray verifying and endorsing the true imam! :wink:

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#201

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:09 pm

Adam wrote:
S. Insaf (very quiet indeed, only when it suits him, he's a coward)
adam,

bhai insaf is in his seventies and not keeping too well with failing eyesight. he responds only when he can.

if we apply that same cruel logic of yours, syedna has never come here to defend himself or express his opinions. he is very quiet indeed. is he a bigger coward??

profastian
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#202

Unread post by profastian » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:46 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
Adam wrote:
S. Insaf (very quiet indeed, only when it suits him, he's a coward)
adam,

bhai insaf is in his seventies and not keeping too well with failing eyesight. he responds only when he can.

if we apply that same cruel logic of yours, syedna has never come here to defend himself or express his opinions. he is very quiet indeed. is he a bigger coward??
Sirf 70 saal main andha ho gaya

anajmi
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#203

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:11 am

Abe, abde idiot to 13 saal mein hi misaq ke bad andha ho jaata hai!!

Adam
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#204

Unread post by Adam » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:24 am

@Humsafar
Again, a very nonsensical cop-out.
All that needed to be discussed on this thread in a very simple manner was this:
-How will the Dawoodi Bohras verify the Imam = Through the Dai
-How will the Proggies verify the Imam? = Don't know yet, as the don't have a Dai to follow

PORUS
I do not expect Adam to budge but he must me thanked for affording us all an opportunity to clarify our stance.

You have a nice way of making me feel better :p

Dai Abi Abdallah was part of Imam's entourage in satr and he knew the Imam very well.

Correction. He DIDN'T.
Dai AbilQasim knew the Imam. Not Dai Abi Abdillah.

Hence what Sayedna Taher Saifuddin described in his most likely invented story about the Maghribi trader and Imam al-Tayyib is the likely scenario. Imam will make an appearance under his own authority and will not need the Dai, and may or may not use him.

About the Sunni Trader. I already gave my opinion.
Since the Sunni wasn't following the Dai of the time, the Imam would have made an appearance under his own authority. But the leadership of the Dai is in place for his own followers, they will go through him.

I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

I would say your need to continue this topic stops right there.
This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you.
Because, since you are not a Imam believer, you're not a Proggy or a Dawoodi Bohra (Abde).
Since you're not an Imam believer, your answers will be "biased" to not leaning towards any opinion that discusses the Imam in general, let alone the Zuhoor. Which is actually against the Proggy belief as well, but they're too much of cowards to believe it.

@Gulam
(They couldn't do it without them)

I meant, the people couldn't do without the Prophets. Stop twisting words and use your brain for a second.

@GULAM / HUMSAFAR / AL ZULFIQAR
You three seem to be Proggies,but don't have the courage to say it out. Confused, Lying or against your own belief
Sticking to this thread, very clearly state:
Do you believe that there is an Imam today (After the 21st Imam)?
If Yes, do you believe that the Imam will do Zuhoor anytime?
If Yes, How will you verify the Imam?


We have already clarified our stance, now you clarify yours. (Non Imam Believers, please hold your opinions till these guys are allowed to speak, so that they don't dodge again. I request you to speak after that. Thank you)

humanbeing
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Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#205

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:02 am

Adam wrote:This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you.
Because, since you are not a Imam believer, you're not a Proggy or a Dawoodi Bohra (Abde).
Since you're not an Imam believer, your answers will be "biased" to not leaning towards any opinion that discusses the Imam in general, let alone the Zuhoor.
Hi Adam

Although I do not have profound knowledge of Fatimid / Dawoodi philosophies discussed on this thread. But as a commoner I have certain queries.

Concept of Imamat applies to All in this world. Then …

Prime facie, whose responsibility it is to educate / inform / invite / warn people who are ignorant of such concept, condition or lack of awareness ?

From Bohra belief / history/ philosophy it is very clear that, Dais have been carrying on the task of educating / informing / inviting people to Daawat or deen of Islam under the guidance of Imam-in-presence / seclusion.

What were the sources of spreading this education and create awareness of Imam in past?

Further on, what are the current efforts to educate uninformed masses* of concept of Imamat ?

*uninformed masses are rest of 6 billion non bohras on the earth.

Adam
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#206

Unread post by Adam » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:12 am

Salam
Nice questions.
Take it to another thread. We'll discuss there.


porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#207

Unread post by porus » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:59 am

Adam wrote:
PORUS

This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you.
Because, since you are not a Imam believer, you're not a Proggy or a Dawoodi Bohra (Abde).
Since you're not an Imam believer, your answers will be "biased" to not leaning towards any opinion that discusses the Imam in general, let alone the Zuhoor. Which is actually against the Proggy belief as well, but they're too much of cowards to believe it.
Adam,

That is a silly position to take and you know it. Hundreds of non-Muslims study, discuss and write about Islam and its history including Fatimid/Tayyibi/Dawwodi Bohra history. And Daawat is in no position, at least until the mythical Imam makes his appearance, to enforce how free people express their opinions. Even then, Imam will be opposed vigorously for attempting to legislate against freedom of thought and speech. Freedom-loving people all over the world tell the Imam to go fly a kite.

As far as 'bias' is concerned, it is you who are biased towards a specific revisionist interpretation of Islamic history and philosophy. My mind is open and I seek information and believe in spreading it as widely as possible.

One of the popular beliefs of abdes is that the first thing that Imam will do after his zuhoor is to march into Masjid-e-Nabawi and destroy the graves of of Abu Bakr and Umar which are buried next to the grave of Rasulullah and remove their bodies from there. Well, then. Here is one way in which that the Imam will offer the proof of his legitimacy and verify himself. Imam who destroys the graves of Abu Bakr and Umar will be the 'true' Imam. :wink: Then we can all prostrate in front of him. From that day onwards, Masjid-e-Nabawi will called Masjid-e-Qiblatain al-thaani since, just like Masjid-e-Qiblatain (al-awwal), it will have two Qiblas, Makkah and the Imam, the latter being a mobile Qibla. :)

Adam
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:50 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#208

Unread post by Adam » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:17 am

Thanks PORUS.
That is your opinion.
And since you aren't of the belief of an Imam coming, no signs at the time of the True Imam will affect you, and you don't consider him legitimate. So discussing about this whole thing again, is senseless.
Furthermore, as a person of your intelligence and maturity, ridiculing others beliefs isn't the right way forward. So please refrain.

That is a silly position to take and you know it. Hundreds of non-Muslims study, discuss and write about Islam and its history including Fatimid/Tayyibi/Dawwodi Bohra history.

Yes, discuss. But keep it to that without offering your own biased interpretations. That I don't accept .... etc etc

This thread was to answer how the Dawoodi Bohras will verify the Imam.
The Abdes have already clarified it.
Now its up to the Proggies to stand up and answer according to their own beliefs.

@GULAM / HUMSAFAR / AL ZULFIQAR
You three seem to be Proggies,but don't have the courage to say it out. Confused, Lying or against your own belief
Sticking to this thread, very clearly state:
Do you believe that there is an Imam today (After the 21st Imam)?
If Yes, do you believe that the Imam will do Zuhoor anytime?
If Yes, How will you verify the Imam?

We have already clarified our stance, now you clarify yours. (Non Imam Believers, please hold your opinions till these guys are allowed to speak, so that they don't dodge again. I request you to speak after that. Thank you)

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#209

Unread post by porus » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:41 am

Adam wrote:Thanks PORUS.
That is your opinion.
And since you aren't of the belief of an Imam coming, no signs at the time of the True Imam will affect you, and you don't consider him legitimate. So discussing about this whole thing again, is senseless.
Furthermore, as a person of your intelligence and maturity, ridiculing others beliefs isn't the right way forward. So please refrain.

That is a silly position to take and you know it. Hundreds of non-Muslims study, discuss and write about Islam and its history including Fatimid/Tayyibi/Dawwodi Bohra history.

Yes, discuss. But keep it to that without offering your own biased interpretations. That I don't accept .... etc etc
Adam,

Although I do not believe that there is a hidden Imam in the progeny of al-Tayyib, I am open to conversion on the basis of new knowledge. Either way, belief or unbelief, I fully intend to comment on any or all issues being discussed here whether you accept or not. My views, opinions and interpretations, like yours, have in-built personal bias as a result of my personal history. The difference is that I am open and you are closed to change.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?

#210

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:54 am

porus,

in short, adam has to understand that his being here on a reformist forum is a privilege, not his right. secondly, this is a forum where any and every viewpoint is heard and everyone is free to contribute whatever and wherever they choose. he doesn't get to moderate, administrate, dictate, bully or control, much as he would like to or is used to, according to his slavish mentality.

this forum is not his baap ki jaagir.