A Good read by Asghar Ali Engineer

[anajmi]

Absolutely. Since both the Quran and the entire Hadith corpus was not presented to the entire Ummat at once, we can dismiss them both as Shia fiction.

And since apples and oranges grow on different trees, we can eat only one fruit at a time.

When the Quran was being presented, there was no Ummah!! and both shia and sunnis dismiss each others hadith until one can use it to prove it's own point.

[anajmi]

Although I see your point that a message delivered by the prophet (saw) even at ghadeer might be meant for the entire muslim ummah. The difference being that the entire muslim ummah interpreted it in exactly the same way, until the incident at karbala when a section created Imamat and idol worship got introduced.

[anajmi]

Normally, if you look at revelation, there is a reason for why a particular portion was delivered at a particular point in time in front of a particular audience. If you look at the incident at ghadeer and the reasons behind it where some people were unhappy with Hazrat Ali, it seems logical. However, if you think the reasons were to declare Hazrat Ali as his successor, then the time and place for the delivery of the message doesn't make sense.

[porus]

The difference being that the entire muslim ummah interpreted it in exactly the same way, until the incident at karbala when a section created Imamat and idol worship got introduced.

Since Ghadeer is a Shia fiction, the question of its interpretation by different groups is moot.

And even if different interpretations are from hadeeth, we can dismiss them as Shia fiction.

[anajmi]

Actually, the incident at ghadeer is not shia fiction. It's subsequent interpretation is.

[porus]

Actually, the incident at ghadeer is not shia fiction. It's subsequent interpretation is.

The incident is a Shia fiction because all the Umma was not there to verify the event. And, especially, Abdul Wahhab was not there either.

[Muslim First]

Even though I stay out of these discussions but I wonder:
Since Prophet did not do anything unless advised by Allah thru Jibreel, Is it possible that he was not told do the same in Makkah, just wondering

Br SBM, AS

Actually Aya regarding advice was deliverd during Hajjatul Vida and not at Ghadeer.
Gadhir speech was to mollify soldiers under Hz Ali who were Peed off bacause Hz Ali made them take off new clothes, and took choice slave girl for himself.

I will post link to sunni version

wasallam

[someone]

Even though I stay out of these discussions but I wonder:
Since Prophet did not do anything unless advised by Allah thru Jibreel, Is it possible that he was not told do the same in Makkah, just wondering

Br SBM, AS

Actually Aya regarding advice was deliverd during Hajjatul Vida and not at Ghadeer.
Gadhir speech was to mollify soldiers under Hz Ali who were Peed off bacause Hz Ali made them take off new clothes, and took choice slave girl for himself.

I will post link to sunni version

wasallam

MF: "Gadhir speech was to mollify soldiers under Hz Ali who were Peed off bacause Hz Ali made them take off new clothes, and took choice slave girl for himself."

Where do you get this from? Before replying, remember you claim to love Hazrat Ali and believe he is a rightly guided caliph!

[porus]

Gadhir speech was to mollify soldiers under Hz Ali who were Peed off bacause Hz Ali made them take off new clothes, and took choice slave girl for himself.

I will post link to sunni version

Dear brother Muslim First,

Did Abdul Wahhab tell you that the entire Ummat was not present at Ghadeer and thus any story about it is a Shia fiction. You may post the Sunni version but make sure that whoever witnessed this account states that the entire Ummat was present at Ghadeer when Ali took the slave girl for himself upsetting his soldiers.

Now, the fellow who related this story would be more trustworthy, especially if Wahhabis trust him, than the Prophet himself who with extreme stealth pounced on Arabs with what he claimed is the Quran, a message from Almighty God himself. Obviously this Prophet Muhammad was a Shia and the whole Quran is a fiction, not witnessed by anyone except Muhammad, let alone the entire Ummat.

[anajmi]

Actually, if you were to read the complete article, the author sites shia sources. Maybe we can consider those shia sources fiction writers eh?

[Muslim First]

The Hadith of Ghadir Khumm
From
http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/ ... dir-khumm/

To summarize the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm: The soldiers in Ali’s army were very upset with Ali (رضّى الله عنه) for denying them linen and camels from the spoils, and they were not pleased with the fact that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) himself was accorded a special share of the Khums (i.e. the fifth of war booty). Of course, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) cannot be blamed for this privilege of taking an extra share of the Khums, which is a right accorded to the Prophet’s family in the Quran. Nonetheless, the people had anger in their eyes, t so they took special offense when Ali (رضّى الله عنه) took a slave girl for himself from the Khums;he soldiers wrongfully accused Ali (رضّى الله عنه) of being a hypocrite for denying the clothes and camels to the men but for himself taking a slave girl. It was for this wrongful criticism of Ali (رضّى الله عنه) that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) defended Ali (رضّى الله عنه) in the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm.

I will post link to Sirah by Ibn Ishaak

Shia treat Ali as demi God so they take offense to any negative post.
For Mainstream Muslims Ali is first among equals among compnions.
Remember we are talking about different culture and different era.

[porus]

Dear Brother Muslim First,

We both agree that no Umma was present when the Quran was revealed. Therefore, it is a Shia fiction. Please do not set much store by it.

Sunni Hadiths are all fiction. Just look what they say:

"A reported B, who in turn reported C, who in turn reported D, who in turn reported E, who in turn reported F and so on and on ...until, ... who reported Z as saying that Prophet said "such and such".

Who the hell is Z and was the whole Umma present with him who also saw what he is reporting? Very unlikely. So the entire Sunni hadith collection is nothing but a Shia fiction. Let us not even raise the matter of the Shia hadith. They are all fictions too.

Conclusion, the Quran, Sunni Hadith, Shia hadith are all Shia fiction. So let us no longer talk about them.

Pax Vabiscum.

[Muslim First]

From same source

Ibn Katheer narrates that the people in the army (i.e. the contingent sent to Yemen) started to criticize Ali (رضّى الله عنه) because he prevented them from riding the camels and took back the new clothes that they had acquired. It was these men that accompanied the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to Medinah via Ghadir Khumm, and it is they who were being addressed in the famous Hadith of Ghadir Khumm.

In fact, in “Tareekh al-Islam”, the event of Ghadir Khumm falls under the heading “The Consolation of Ali”. We read:

The Consolation of Ali

During the Hajj, some of the followers of Ali who had been with him to Yemen complained to the Prophet about Ali. Some of the misunderstandings of the people of Yemen had given rise to misgivings. Addressing the Companions at Ghadir Khumm, the Prophet of Allah said admiring Ali: “The one who is my friend is the friend of Ali…” Following the address, Umar congratulated Ali saying: “From this day on you are a very special friend of mine.” The Prophet then came back to Al-Medinah and his son Ibrahim passed away.

(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, p.241)

[anajmi]

shia - Ali was declared his successor by the prophet in ghadeer.

Muslim First - If the prophet wanted to declare him as successor he could've done it in Mecca as the entire Umma would've been there.

shia - So you are saying that ghadeer is shia fiction?

Muslim First - No. ghadeer is not shia fiction. The purpose of ghadeer is different.

shia - So you are saying that ghadeer is shia fiction?

Muslim First - No. the declaration at ghadeer was because Ali didn't allow people to wear new clothes.

shia - So you are saying that ghadeer is shia fiction?

Muslim First - No. the declaration at ghadeer was to re-inforce the authority of Hazrat Ali for the expeditions that he was in charge of.

shia - So since you are saying that ghadeer is shia fiction, the quran and hadith is also shia fiction.

[ghulam muhammed]

My 2 cents:-

We all know that Ahadiths (Both shia/sunni) were compiled after almost 300 years since Prophet (s.a.w.) left for heavenly abode hence the true authenticity is highly debatable. Doesnt a little bit of commonsense tell us that in every likelihood they could be distorted and fabricated by vested interests (both shia and sunni) to suit their personal agendas ?

To make it more simple............ The elders on this forum will confirm that in our school days we were taught that Shivaji was a mountain rat, a dacoit who killed Afzal Khan by deceit. Now if you ask the children of today they will totally refute our claim and say that there was no great, honest and brave warrior like Shivaji because that is what they are taught now. So if history could be changed in a mere 30/40 years even after the invent of latest communicative tools then how is it not possible that various pieces of historic literature must have changed in a span of almost 1400 years !!!!! And that too in the absence of any modern communication devices !

[porus]

Brother GM,

Hadith:

The Shia View:

"All Sunni Hadith were compiled, as you say, several centuries after the Prophet. So "the cocktail effect" of 'he said because he said because he said...' renders all Sunni Hadith suspect".

"All Shia Hadith are from Imams of "Ahl-e-bayt" who are considered infallible and report only what the previous infallible Imams have related. Despite splintering of Imamat into several sects, majority of the Shia accept Imam Jafar al-Sadiq as the rightful Imam. Hence, just like Daimul Islam, most Shia hadith relate to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and Imams previous to him. And all Imams. up to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, have only related hadith of their predecessors without any addition".

[anajmi]

And these infallible Imams have appointed infallible Dais to make sure that the Daimul Islam is followed as dictated by the infallible Imam!

One particular corner stone hadith from Imam Jafar Sadiq, which is the cause of the shia abuse of the first khalifa was debunked on this very forum!!

One of the reasons it was debunked is that in its "he said this because he said this...." one of the "he" turned out to be Muawiyah!!

[Muslim First]

Chronology after Prophet

Hadrat Abu-Bakar Siddiq Born 51 BH*/573 CE*, Makkah Died 13 AH*/23 August 634 (Tuesday) Medinah Remark First Caliph (Khalifah) of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Khalifatur-Rasool

Hadrat Umar ibn alKhattab Born41 BH/582 Makkah Died 24 AH/7 November 644 (Sunday) Medinah Remark Second Caliph (Khalifah), Title "Ameerul-Momineen" was first adopted

Uthman ibn AffaanUthman ibn Affaan Born 47 BH/577 Makkah Died 18 Zul-Hijja 35 AH/17 June 656 (Friday) Medinah Remark Ameerul-Momineen, Third Caliph (Khalifah)

Imam Ali ibn Abi-Taalib(1) Born13 Rajab 23BH/600 Makkah Died 21 Ramadhan 40AH/28 January 661 (Thur) Kufah Remark Ameerul-Momineen, Fourth Caliph (Khalifah)

Imam Hasan ibn Ali (2) Born 15 Ramadan 3 AH/28 February 625 (Thu) Medinah Died Safar 49 or 50 AH/669 or 670 Medinah Remark Ameerul-Momineen (5th Khalifah), First son of Ali & Fatimah, Grand Child of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), was probably poisoned

Mo'awiah ibn Abi-Sufian Born 12 BH/611 Makkah Died 60 AH/680 Dimashq Remark6th Khalifah (Brother-in-law of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh))

Imam Husain ibn Ali (3) Born 3 Sha'ban 4 AH/8 Jan 626 (Wednesday) Medinah Died 10 Muharram 61 AH/9 Oct 680 (Tue) Karbala, Iraq Shaheed-e-Karbala, Second son of Ali & Fatimah, Grand Child of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Imam Ali Zainul-Abideen (4) Born 5 Sha'ban 38 AH/5 Jan 659 (Saturday) Medinah Died 25 Muharram 95 AH/20 Oct 713 (Friday) Medinah Remark Son of Imam Husain

Imam Muhammad Baqir (5) Born 1 Rajab 57 AH/9 May 677 (Saturday) Medinah Died 7 Zul-Hijja 114 AH/28 Jan 733 (Wednesday) Medinah Remark Son of Imam Ali Zainul-Abideen

Imam-1: Abu-Hanifa Born 80 AH/699 Kufah, Iraq Died 150 AH/767 Baghdad RemarkTaabai, Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence), student of Imam Baqir & Imam Ja'far Sadiq

Imam Ja'far Sadiq (6) Born 17 Rabi-al-Awwal 83 AH/10 Apr 702 (Monday) Medinah 25 Shawwal 148 AH/13 Dec 765 (Fri) Medinah Remark Taabai, Son of Imam Baqir. He was Imam of Fiqh Ja'fri (Jurisprudence)

Imam-2: Maalik Born 93 AH/712 Medinah Died 179 AH/795 Medinah Remark[/bTaba-Taabai, Compiler of Hadith & Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence), student of Imam Ja'far Sadiq


Imam Abu-Yusuf(Hanafi) Born 113 AH/731 Kufah, Iraq Died 187 AH/803 Baghdad RemarkTaba-Taabai, Student of Abu-Hanifah, Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence)

Up to the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq, friends of Ali (Shi'aan-e-Ali) were not considered any different from other Muslims. Imam Ja'far Sadiq had two sons, Isma'il and Musa al-Kazim. Followers of Isma'il become the "Seveners" or "Ismailis. Followers of Musa al-Kazim become the "Twelvers" who believed that the lineage of Imam continued with Imam Musa al-Kazim. Beginning of Shi'ism was not documented before this time, but long after, when the concept of 12 Imams became the basis of Shi'as after the 12th Imam's disappearance in 878 CE.

[porus]

And these infallible Imams have appointed infallible Dais to make sure that the Daimul Islam is followed as dictated by the infallible Imam!

One particular corner stone hadith from Imam Jafar Sadiq, which is the cause of the shia abuse of the first khalifa was debunked on this very forum!!

Want to win Lying Olympics, my friend?

No Imam has appointed the Dai al-Mutlaq. Dais appointed by Imams were never considered infallible.

That particular hadith was proven to be a forgery by anti-Shia elements.

[Muslim First]

"All Shia Hadith are from Imams of "Ahl-e-bayt" who are considered infallible and report only what the previous infallible Imams have related. Despite splintering of Imamat into several sects, majority of the Shia accept Imam Jafar al-Sadiq as the rightful Imam. Hence, just like Daimul Islam, most Shia hadith relate to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and Imams previous to him. And all Imams. up to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, have only related hadith of their predecessors without any addition".

Self appointed infallible

Do we really want to get into posting infallible Ahadith from infallible Imamas?

[anajmi]

No Imam has appointed the Dai al-Mutlaq. Dais appointed by Imams were never considered infallible.

So you are saying that all shia bohras of today are liars? Me too.

I guess we have to give the gold to the bohras!!

[ghulam muhammed]

All Shia Hadith are from Imams of "Ahl-e-bayt" who are considered infallible and report only what the previous infallible Imams have related.

Bro porus,

I do not doubt the rightousness of Ahle Bayt or Imams but certain hadiths are so filmsy that it is difficult to believe that such sayings could be the words of these holy souls. By just attributing certain words, which many a times are highly pervert and obscene to these holy souls doesnt make the hadith authentic. There are scores of such examples in shia literature.

[anajmi]

"All Shia Hadith are from Imams of "Ahl-e-bayt" who are considered infallible and report only what the previous infallible Imams have related. Despite splintering of Imamat into several sects, majority of the Shia accept Imam Jafar al-Sadiq as the rightful Imam. Hence, just like Daimul Islam, most Shia hadith relate to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and Imams previous to him. And all Imams. up to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, have only related hadith of their predecessors without any addition".

Our shia friend has previously stated on this forum that he doesn't consider any Imam after the "Ahl-e-bayt" as infallible. And then he presents their infallibility as justification for the authenticity of hadith delivered by these Imams.

I guess we have to give him the silver medal!!

[Muslim First]

I guess we have to give him the silver medal!!

No he should be awarded Gold, Silver, Bronz and Clay Medal.

[porus]

Our shia friend has previously stated on this forum that he doesn't consider any Imam after the "Ahl-e-bayt" as infallible. And then he presents their infallibility as justification for the authenticity of hadith delivered by these Imams.

I guess we have to give him the silver medal!!

Please read my post to GM. I have entitled it the "Shia view", not "My view".

However, the only Imams alive at the time Prophet were Ali, Hasan and Husain; and, of course, Fatima. All hadith regarding Prophet relate to Prophet himself or to these infallibles, in other words to Ahl-e-bayt.

Brother GM,

I agree that some Shia hadith are objectionable. They are mostly from the twelvers. Ismaili (Bohra) hadiths are sound from that point of view and they reject many twelver ones as being later additions.

[anajmi]

Hmmm. So you are saying that the shia view is the right view because......their Imams are infallible???

No wait, but you don't believe their Imams to be infallible. So the shia view is right because... help me over here will you?

No wait. You don't think the shia view is the right view. You are simply stating that the shia say that their view is the right view because.......their Imams are infallible???

No wait, the shia view is the right view because they have managed to fool people better than the sunnis?

But they haven't fooled porus, because he was able to figure out that their Imams are not infallible.

So why is the shia view the right view again? It is the right view because the shia say that their Imams are infallible. But they are not.

[anajmi]

However, the only Imams alive at the time Prophet were Ali, Hasan and Husain; and, of course, Fatima. All hadith regarding Prophet relate to Prophet himself or to these infallibles, in other words to Ahl-e-bayt.

That would mean that the prophet (saw) was teaching only these 4 people. Or that only these 4 people were capable of understanding what the prophet (saw) was teaching. So if only these 4 were able to understand the teachings of someone who was teaching something that Allah says in the Quran is easy to understand (or does he?) imagine the knowledge possessed by the rest of the fools.

Since the prophet (saw) wasn't able to teach anyone else, we can easily conclude that the 4 people were unable to teach anyone else either.

[sixfeetunder]

Bro porus,

I do not doubt the rightousness of Ahle Bayt or Imams but certain hadiths are so filmsy that it is difficult to believe that such sayings could be the words of these holy souls. By just attributing certain words, which many a times are highly pervert and obscene to these holy souls doesnt make the hadith authentic. There are scores of such examples in shia literature.

Bro GM

All suspect ahadith, shia or sunni, shown be shown the bin. The likes of Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen have already created furore by basing their literature on authentic Sunni hadith collections. There is a simple rule shown by the Prophet and ahlul bayt to accept and reject ahadith. Reject the hadith which go against the Quran. The pervert and vulgar ahadith may well be the works of anti-Islamic forces and mischief-mongers. Quran accords the loftiest of statuses to ahlul bayt. So any indecent hadith about them or attributed to them is suspect. Also, Shia do not have any sahih collection as such. Just because a hadith is attributed to such and such Imam, it doesnt make it the Quranic truth.

[anajmi]

Let me dissect this 4 infallibles concept further. The shia (porus) contends that only hadith transmitted by these 4 can be considered authentic because they are infallibles. And no human after these 4 can be considered as infallible. Now if that were to be true, then none of the hadith that the shia have today can be considered to be authentic doesn't matter where they came from. Let me prove this to you. Please pay attention as it gets really confusing.

The prophet's hadith were understood and transmitted correctly only by the 4 infallibles. None of the other sahaba of the prophet (saw) were infallibles. Hence, anything that is transmitted by them cannot be considered authentic. Now, consider a group of people that recieved the knowledge of the hadith directly from the 4 infallibles. We will refer to this group as Group A. All hadith that Group A recieved are authentic.

Group A then transmitted these hadith to Group B. However, since none of the people in Group A are infallible, Group B cannot trust any hadith as authentic. Group B then transmitted these hadith to Group C. Same story. Nothing that Group C recieved will be considered authentic. Since we can safely assume that none of the shia living today belong to Group A, we can safely say that none of the shia have the authentic hadith of the prophet (saw).

This is the dissection of the porus view.

Now consider the bohra view. Group A has an infallible. Group B has an infallible, Group C has an infallible and so on and so forth.

Hence the bohra view is far more logical than the porus view. Who knows, I would've remained a bohra if the last infallible hadn't turned out to be a fraud.

[someone]

Chronology after Prophet

Hadrat Abu-Bakar Siddiq Born 51 BH*/573 CE*, Makkah Died 13 AH*/23 August 634 (Tuesday) Medinah Remark First Caliph (Khalifah) of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Khalifatur-Rasool

Hadrat Umar ibn alKhattab Born41 BH/582 Makkah Died 24 AH/7 November 644 (Sunday) Medinah Remark Second Caliph (Khalifah), Title "Ameerul-Momineen" was first adopted

Uthman ibn AffaanUthman ibn Affaan Born 47 BH/577 Makkah Died 18 Zul-Hijja 35 AH/17 June 656 (Friday) Medinah Remark Ameerul-Momineen, Third Caliph (Khalifah)

Imam Ali ibn Abi-Taalib(1) Born13 Rajab 23BH/600 Makkah Died 21 Ramadhan 40AH/28 January 661 (Thur) Kufah Remark Ameerul-Momineen, Fourth Caliph (Khalifah)

Imam Hasan ibn Ali (2) Born 15 Ramadan 3 AH/28 February 625 (Thu) Medinah Died Safar 49 or 50 AH/669 or 670 Medinah Remark Ameerul-Momineen (5th Khalifah), First son of Ali & Fatimah, Grand Child of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), was probably poisoned

Mo'awiah ibn Abi-Sufian Born 12 BH/611 Makkah Died 60 AH/680 Dimashq Remark6th Khalifah (Brother-in-law of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh))

Imam Husain ibn Ali (3) Born 3 Sha'ban 4 AH/8 Jan 626 (Wednesday) Medinah Died 10 Muharram 61 AH/9 Oct 680 (Tue) Karbala, Iraq Shaheed-e-Karbala, Second son of Ali & Fatimah, Grand Child of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Imam Ali Zainul-Abideen (4) Born 5 Sha'ban 38 AH/5 Jan 659 (Saturday) Medinah Died 25 Muharram 95 AH/20 Oct 713 (Friday) Medinah Remark Son of Imam Husain

Imam Muhammad Baqir (5) Born 1 Rajab 57 AH/9 May 677 (Saturday) Medinah Died 7 Zul-Hijja 114 AH/28 Jan 733 (Wednesday) Medinah Remark Son of Imam Ali Zainul-Abideen

Imam-1: Abu-Hanifa Born 80 AH/699 Kufah, Iraq Died 150 AH/767 Baghdad RemarkTaabai, Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence), student of Imam Baqir & Imam Ja'far Sadiq

Imam Ja'far Sadiq (6) Born 17 Rabi-al-Awwal 83 AH/10 Apr 702 (Monday) Medinah 25 Shawwal 148 AH/13 Dec 765 (Fri) Medinah Remark Taabai, Son of Imam Baqir. He was Imam of Fiqh Ja'fri (Jurisprudence)

Imam-2: Maalik Born 93 AH/712 Medinah Died 179 AH/795 Medinah Remark[/bTaba-Taabai, Compiler of Hadith & Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence), student of Imam Ja'far Sadiq


Imam Abu-Yusuf(Hanafi) Born 113 AH/731 Kufah, Iraq Died 187 AH/803 Baghdad RemarkTaba-Taabai, Student of Abu-Hanifah, Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence)

Up to the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq, friends of Ali (Shi'aan-e-Ali) were not considered any different from other Muslims. Imam Ja'far Sadiq had two sons, Isma'il and Musa al-Kazim. Followers of Isma'il become the "Seveners" or "Ismailis. Followers of Musa al-Kazim become the "Twelvers" who believed that the lineage of Imam continued with Imam Musa al-Kazim. Beginning of Shi'ism was not documented before this time, but long after, when the concept of 12 Imams became the basis of Shi'as after the 12th Imam's disappearance in 878 CE.

This is filled with contradiction. Better way would be to show this as parallel chronologies.

BTW, your post says:
"Imam-1: Abu-Hanifa Born 80 AH/699 Kufah, Iraq Died 150 AH/767 Baghdad RemarkTaabai, Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence), student of Imam Baqir & Imam Ja'far Sadiq "
"Imam-2: Maalik Born 93 AH/712 Medinah Died 179 AH/795 Medinah Remark[/bTaba-Taabai, Compiler of Hadith & Scholar of Fiqh (Jurisprudence), student of Imam Ja'far Sadiq"

Earlier in this thread, in response to one of my posts to you, you wrote it was debatable / doubtful regarding if the above two imams were students of Imam Jafar.

I do not even know which Shia Ahadith are true or not. It is debatable if 2 Imams were his students or not.
If I ask you you will not give Me straight answer.

Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

So which is it?