Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Posted: **Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 am**

[DELETED]

Posted: **Thu May 14, 2020 11:01 am**

objectiveobserver53 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:03 am
think_for_yourself wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:17 am

Ewww. There is that perverted curiosity again. Byculla has been very kind in answering all your questions but I would not have gone so far to satisfy a perv.

If you say that you had witnesses and testimony and all that, why did you need to carry on a charade? Why the need for deception? Moiz could have easily said we brought Moula here to do nass e jali but he is not in a state to recognize MS. He Thinks his name may be Mohamned bhai.
Yes that would have been the right thing to do. If the lot who planned this charade, including MS were truly righteous, truth would be important to them. Do you think that if they could deceive in Raudat Tahera, it would be difficult for them to create a fake video in Cromwell hospital? They have no credibility after so many attempts at deception. Liars, the lot of them.

Anyone with half a brain can see that if Moula was in this condition a few days after the stroke, when he cannot even recognize MS, there is no way he did a nass on MS right after the stroke.
So much deception, so many lies.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 4:37 am**

KQ lost the battle long before Nass(Subject to believe) was done on SMS in Raudat Tahera.

YN & Co had successfully maligned his image among the masses. Plus most of the insiders knew about KQs confrontations and issues with SMB.

KQ was never around SMB in his last years. All this and many other things that were done by KQ only added to the hidden contempt people already had for KQ.

On so many occasions I have witnessed people talking about him all sorts of things but then closing the conversation saying "Moula ye rakha chey, to apna si kai na kehwaai."

Truth is which both SMS and STF agents on this forum won't accept is that.

It is a fact that STS had as per the prenup promise to his youngest wife that one of the offspring from her would be designated as heir to SMB, and of all the sons he had with her KQ was the one with the most potential, and hence he was indeed prepared for the office of Dai al Mutlaq by STS and had clearly instructed SMB to do so.

Hence, in the early years of SMB's reign, it is a fact that no one can deny that everyone use to do Sajda/Taqbil al Ard to KQ, and use to address with him all sorts of legacy Dawat Terms that are used for a mansoos.

But two things went against KQ.

1. His character flaws like, arrogance, over-confidence, etc.
2. Having a dynamic and genius YN as his nemesis... YN went for a long game and succeeded in it.. and the KQs own character flaws made it easier for him to achieve what he wanted.

Now KQ has ample of evidence to prove that Nass was in fact done on him in early years and SMB had promised STS that he will nominate him as his successor( which SMS side will never accept) but it is also a fact that SMB did not do so and Nominated SMS, and most of the people love and admire SMS, Progressives/reformists can ridicule and insult SMS as much as they want, but the fact is that people see him as a very humble, kind, and common man's Dai, who speaks to them in a very simple language and connects with them at a very personal level.

Now, KQ side is hell-bent on acquiring the sole proprietorship of Dawat Hadiya Trust based on early nass evidence that they have and they are saying nass once done cannot be revoked. Because it is divinely guided and divinity is infallible.

and SMS side is hell-bent on saying yes it can be done and they are trying to prove it by citing various controversial issues of the past. But maintains silence when one asks them how can infallible divinity changes its mind.

What both sides are hiding and not ready to accept is that there is a difference between Nass that a Mustaqar Imam does on another Mustaqar Imam and the one that Dai does on another Dai. and that Dai of Satr does not have the same Ismat as the Mustaqar Imam, because accepting this won't be good for the business.

Because, the fundamental doctrine that gives the current Dai al Mutlaq the divine status and control over everything today is this carefully, meticulously developed concept, which every Mulla repeats over and over again...."Imam (as) aney Satr ma ena Dai" by prefixing and suffixing this after every sentence, the current ruling dispensation has successfully established the concept Ismat equivalent to that of Imam for dai. Which is far from reality.(nobody even dares to use term Kal masum anymore for the Dai, thanks to various asbaaqs by Ali Asger Kalimuddin and his dead Brother Qasim Hakimuddin)

In fact, the very fact that makes the office of Dai al Mutlaq so special is that he has the full authority to choose his successor, whether he gets Taeed or not.
I have myself heard SMB say this in a waaz of Ashara 2007 that, If a dai gets taaeed then great but even he does not then he has the right to appoint whoever he sees fit, and then went on to give the example of Nass on Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin by Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin where the later chose the former based on his discretion, he said that this very fact gives the position of Dai al Mutlaq a rank above Mustawda Imams because they were dependent for everything on Mustaqar Imam, which is not the case with Dai al Mutlaq.(One of the many dogmas created in last 100 yrs to give Dai the position he enjoys today)

By taking away Ismat or rather Ismat equivalent to that of a Mustaqar Imam from Dai, neither side wants to dig their own grave.

This would take away the blind following that people have today for their respective Dai's

Truth is STS wanted KQ to be 53rd and that he had instructed SMB to do so, but SMB did not follow up on it because both KQ turned out to be a rotten egg and he preferred his son over him and someone else(YN) was ready to fight this battle for him then why not.

Both the parties will never accept or rather openly discuss this.

Those close to STF clan know very well how much love(hate) and liking(contempt) they had for SMB.

Accepting this truth will reveal that Dai al Mutlaq is not as divine as thought to be and does not have same Ismat as a Mustaqar Imam from the progeny of Ahl al Kisa(SWA).
it also reveals that not everything that a Dai al Mutlaq does(based on the admission of SMB) is through Taeed, it also reveals many other things, which I leave to the readers imagination. out of personal respect for STS, SMB, and the office of Dai al Mutlaq I would not elaborate on that, because, even without Taeed or Infallible divinity at the help.
It is an office created by the Raza of Imam (as) and STS, SMB, and today SMS have done a lot for the well-being of the community, and Progressive/reformists can ridicule and say all sort of nasty things about the regular SMB followers, but they are not as bad as they are portrayed to be in term of any social metrics. Infact one of the many reasons these progressives/reformists don't give up on their golden ITS card is because they know very well, that as compared to any other community, the culture overall social and political respect of the DB community is second to none. Kothar has many evil aspects to it, but one thing about which Kothar doesn't think much before spending any amount necessary on, is when it comes to the social and political security of the community members.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 7:03 am**

Very well explained except disagree on some of your observation
While I am not a card carrying member of any of the cult following but I do like the culture of Bohra Community and proud of its history of philanthropy, cuisine and culture but again since the reign of 51, all those are bastardized, STS was a shrewd manipulator and using his fantastic knowledge of Arabic, he started hijackings Dawat.
STS was responsible for taking away Philanthropical work of Adamji Peerbhoy and other trusts like Maskati Trust Musafir Khana,
Saify Mahal was NOT his property but he took over, Saifee Hospital was not his property and slowly he started building his own empire.
As they say Drug Mafia are dangerous but RELIGIOUS MAFIA are twice dangerous because they use RELIGION to scare even the poorest of the poor and that is exactly what we have in today's DAWAT.
51 started corrupting the DAWAT and started building empire and image of Catholic and Papal hierarchy and has done very well for his off springs at the expense of hard working Abdes/Amtes

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 7:12 am**

The above is a supremely flawed analysis because it is based on the assumption that SMB sidelined SKQ. The truth is that every attempt was made by the sons to sideline SKQ but SMB took every opportunity to signal to the contrary. Let me describe what I observed in the 100th milad. An event pretty close to the stroke:

1) SKQ was present for all events.
2) When MS tried to jump up and do muanaqqa to SMB before SKQ, SMB stopped him. SMB then signaled SKQ to step forward and perform muanaqqa which he performed with deep reverence. MS tried to step up again and SMB stopped him again. FD has a video that captures the whole thing and it has been posted on this forum in the past.
3) In the 100th milad, SMB only accepted one ziyafat. It was by SKQ.
4) For zohar namaaz after waaz before SMB departed, he announced “me javu chu magar bhai ne Tamara darmiyan muki ne javu chu.” Then he gave SKQ raza to lead namaaz.

Your theory is based on “what people said....” Who to you think trained them to say those things? My response to them would be: “Moula ye rutbaa maa raakha che to tamey kaun aava Mazoon ni behurmati karva wala?” All of these people who said those things were proving that they thought they knew better than Moula! The more intelligent always saw through the systematic way in which SKQ was kept out of the video frames to give an impression that he was not there. Any account of any “outburst” is completely fabricated. Yes SKQ followers know how much love SKQ and his children have for SMB. Luckily now we get to experience it first hand without manipulated camera frames. Malgudi your deluded post has no credibility. No facts.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 am**

Br Ajamali
You did not dispute SKQ's character in early stages of his life.
Also what you describe if true then SKQ did not have Spine to stand up against the Mafisato and kept MUM to save his Gaadi and for opportune time to get the Daiship so if he would have been 53 Dai, how things would have changed???
Current changes in FTD is only to attract some disenchanted followers of SMS
Remember a silent spectator to a crime is also considered as Co conspirator.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 1:38 pm**

ajamali wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 7:12 am The above is a supremely flawed analysis because it is based on the assumption that SMB sidelined SKQ. The truth is that every attempt was made by the sons to sideline SKQ but SMB took every opportunity to signal to the contrary. Let me describe what I observed in the 100th milad. An event pretty close to the stroke:

1) SKQ was present for all events.
2) When MS tried to jump up and do muanaqqa to SMB before SKQ, SMB stopped him. SMB then signaled SKQ to step forward and perform muanaqqa which he performed with deep reverence. MS tried to step up again and SMB stopped him again. FD has a video that captures the whole thing and it has been posted on this forum in the past.
3) In the 100th milad, SMB only accepted one ziyafat. It was by SKQ.
4) For zohar namaaz after waaz before SMB departed, he announced “me javu chu magar bhai ne Tamara darmiyan muki ne javu chu.” Then he gave SKQ raza to lead namaaz.

Your theory is based on “what people said....” Who to you think trained them to say those things? My response to them would be: “Moula ye rutbaa maa raakha che to tamey kaun aava Mazoon ni behurmati karva wala?” All of these people who said those things were proving that they thought they knew better than Moula! The more intelligent always saw through the systematic way in which SKQ was kept out of the video frames to give an impression that he was not there. Any account of any “outburst” is completely fabricated. Yes SKQ followers know how much love SKQ and his children have for SMB. Luckily now we get to experience it first hand without manipulated camera frames. Malgudi your deluded post has no credibility. No facts.

Right, Take care brother, I know how difficult it is to be on payroll of STF & Co. I have nothing but respect for you.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 1:54 pm**

malgudidays wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 1:38 pm
ajamali wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 7:12 am The above is a supremely flawed analysis because it is based on the assumption that SMB sidelined SKQ. The truth is that every attempt was made by the sons to sideline SKQ but SMB took every opportunity to signal to the contrary. Let me describe what I observed in the 100th milad. An event pretty close to the stroke:

1) SKQ was present for all events.
2) When MS tried to jump up and do muanaqqa to SMB before SKQ, SMB stopped him. SMB then signaled SKQ to step forward and perform muanaqqa which he performed with deep reverence. MS tried to step up again and SMB stopped him again. FD has a video that captures the whole thing and it has been posted on this forum in the past.
3) In the 100th milad, SMB only accepted one ziyafat. It was by SKQ.
4) For zohar namaaz after waaz before SMB departed, he announced “me javu chu magar bhai ne Tamara darmiyan muki ne javu chu.” Then he gave SKQ raza to lead namaaz.

Your theory is based on “what people said....” Who to you think trained them to say those things? My response to them would be: “Moula ye rutbaa maa raakha che to tamey kaun aava Mazoon ni behurmati karva wala?” All of these people who said those things were proving that they thought they knew better than Moula! The more intelligent always saw through the systematic way in which SKQ was kept out of the video frames to give an impression that he was not there. Any account of any “outburst” is completely fabricated. Yes SKQ followers know how much love SKQ and his children have for SMB. Luckily now we get to experience it first hand without manipulated camera frames. Malgudi your deluded post has no credibility. No facts.
Right, Take care brother, I know how difficult it is to be on payroll of STF & Co. I have nothing but respect for you.

I think you are mistaken....Don’t project your situation on me.

Luckily for me I am well employed and have the wherewithal to take a stand on principle alone. I do not feel compelled to be part of a community that turns a blind eye to deception and lies. Peace “bro.”

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 2:08 pm**

SBM wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 am Br Ajamali
You did not dispute SKQ's character in early stages of his life.
Also what you describe if true then SKQ did not have Spine to stand up against the Mafisato and kept MUM to save his Gaadi and for opportune time to get the Daiship so if he would have been 53 Dai, how things would have changed???
Current changes in FTD is only to attract some disenchanted followers of SMS
Remember a silent spectator to a crime is also considered as Co conspirator.

Bro SBM, how do you know he did not take a stand against the forces in Dawat that were moving against all that was good and kind In Dawat? That the forces proved too strong for his efforts is more a sign of the times than a testament to his effort.
How would things change? I think I heard you acknowledge that things are different in FD now. Cronyism and corruption are out, transparency is in. As you can see, FD people attend court proceedings and have full access to their Dai through video conferences.
As far as defending SKQ’s character, I do not respond to baseless filth. I somehow did not expect you to bring that kind of crap up.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 3:22 pm**

ajamali wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 1:54 pm
malgudidays wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 1:38 pm

Right, Take care brother, I know how difficult it is to be on payroll of STF & Co. I have nothing but respect for you.
I think you are mistaken....Don’t project your situation on me.

Luckily for me I am well employed and have the wherewithal to take a stand on principle alone. I do not feel compelled to be part of a community that turns a blind eye to deception and lies. Peace “bro.”

Well, If you say so...

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 7:24 pm**

SBM wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 am Br Ajamali
You did not dispute SKQ's character in early stages of his life.
Also what you describe if true then SKQ did not have Spine to stand up against the Mafisato and kept MUM to save his Gaadi and for opportune time to get the Daiship so if he would have been 53 Dai, how things would have changed???
Current changes in FTD is only to attract some disenchanted followers of SMS
Remember a silent spectator to a crime is also considered as Co conspirator.

As expected, the paid cyber-warrior, very cleverly skipped the core issue that I highlighted regards to difference of Ismat and Martaba between Imam (as) and Dai al Mutlaq even the era of Satr.

Whether KQ was a womanizer or not is not the main issue, Issue is that both STS Private Ltd and it's offshoots have manipulated the truth and today both SMS & STF are twisting and turning facts to suit their narratives.

STF & Team is comparing the Nass of a mustaqar Imam (as) to that of Dai al Mutlaq and claiming that, hence it cannot be changed, also, they are not willing to accept that not everything that a Dai does is through Taeed, infact, SMB said the very contrary of that is what makes the position of Dai al Mutlaq superior to that of even Mustawda Imams.

Dear Team SKQ/STF Dai al Mutlaq does is not plugged in to the faiz of Imam (as) 24x7, and he is not infallible like Imam (as) hence, he can change/revoke nass, and that's what SMB did.

Dear Team SMS, please do not give reference of incidents related to change of Nass related to Mustawda & Kafeel Imams, Nizar and other examples that you have cited are in context of Nass on Mustawda & Kafeel Imams.
Nass of Mustaqar Imam (as) can never be revoked or changed, a mustaqar Imam is Imam by birth. Please do not manipulate references to prove your point.

and both STF Co. & SMS Co. Fear Allah, please do not propogate the false aqeeda that Dai al mutlaq is Maasum, he is not, someone like Abdul Majid who was designated as Mustawda/Kafeel Imam and had the direct nomination by Imam Amir (as) as compared to the office of Dai al Mutlaq which has appointment through Hujjat and Dai al Balagh, went astray and claimed Imamat for himself, even someone like him who was far up the ladder in the ranks of Hudud then Dai al Mutlaq did not have the same Ismat as that of Mustaqar Imam. Saying Dai al Mutlaq in Daur al Satr is equal to Imam in all respects is azeem shirk.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm**

So, it is an established fact that DB believe that Dai al Mutlaq (dai in satr) are at same position as of Imam and can take decisions independently. Which means they have spiritual power similar to that of imam.
Now, I don't remember the exact qasida so I am not going to say it but this idea has been held for a long time and not just since STS or even Syedna Abdulqadir Najmuddin.
If FD people claim to be on haq then in they must also believe the same thing for TF, KQ and SMB.

So for the sake of argument, I want you guys to accept this fact that dai is in position of Imam as believed by both sides for a few minutes.
How were a bunch of nobodys (as per FD people) like YN or QJ or SMS were able to conspire against the powerful SMB/KQ/TF?
Also if position of dai is similar to that of imam, position of mazoon can be considered similar to Hujjat? So is Hujjat always mansoos of imam?

Whereas if you tend to believe in SMS side, you see that he was around SMB more than KQ not just in the latter part of SMB's life.
He was given title of Aqeeq ul yemen, was made incharge of Jame al Anwar and other Jamea's restoration and renovation, did Ashara bayaan on three days in Mumbai when SMB's tabiyat was nasaas, always asked to do tilawat of Quran Majeed in front of Moula, has three evidence of nass (paper, cromwell video and Raudat Tahera video).

On the contrary what KQ's position is hamne zaleel kari dida, hangamo thai jate, quran shahid che.
Where was he when Jamea al anwar was being cleaned of trash?
Where was he when dai needed someone to uplift the conditions of bohras in yemen?
Where was he when SMB was recovering from stroke? Where was he when SMB went for Raudat Tahera ziarat before wafaat?
Where was he when SMB was given ghusl, kafan and dafan? (I'm sorry I do know answer to this question)

In one night from being mazoon of dawat he became the dawedaar. Even though i am very young, i have seen him as mazoon. I didn't know anything about all his misdeeds before i just had respect and love for him because he was mazoon. His name was the second name taught to us in madrasa only after SMB. I was shocked to hear what he did after SMB wafaat. I didn't even have my misaq then. I remember when we gave him ziafat, we went to him again and again as he would feed us strawberries since he was not able to eat anything solid he didn't mind us having there. I remember once when i went for SMB's deedar he happened to pass by me and he put face on my hand with shafaqat and i was so happy. I am still shocked about what he did, why becoming a dai seemed so appealing to him when he could have had everything (well he already did have everything).

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 9:04 pm**

First Fake 53 insisted I did not attend court. Now Malgudi insists I am a paid cyber warrior. Highly amused.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 9:17 pm**

Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm So, it is an established fact that DB believe that Dai al Mutlaq (dai in satr) are at same position as of Imam and can take decisions independently. Which means they have spiritual power similar to that of imam.
Now, I don't remember the exact qasida so I am not going to say it but this idea has been held for a long time and not just since STS or even Syedna Abdulqadir Najmuddin.
If FD people claim to be on haq then in they must also believe the same thing for TF, KQ and SMB.

When the Dai does nass he says he is doing nass with the ilhaam of the imam. Do you think the Dai says that just to toy with us while he is making such a serious declaration?What’s your belief?

Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm
So for the sake of argument, I want you guys to accept this fact that dai is in position of Imam as believed by both sides for a few minutes.
How were a bunch of nobodys (as per FD people) like YN or QJ or SMS were able to conspire against the powerful SMB/KQ/TF?
Also if position of dai is similar to that of imam, position of mazoon can be considered similar to Hujjat? So is Hujjat always mansoos of imam?

No.

Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm
Whereas if you tend to believe in SMS side, you see that he was around SMB more than KQ not just in the latter part of SMB's life.
He was given title of Aqeeq ul yemen, was made incharge of Jame al Anwar and other Jamea's restoration and renovation, did Ashara bayaan on three days in Mumbai when SMB's tabiyat was nasaas, always asked to do tilawat of Quran Majeed in front of Moula, has three evidence of nass (paper, cromwell video and Raudat Tahera video).

On the contrary what KQ's position is hamne zaleel kari dida, hangamo thai jate, quran shahid che.
Where was he when Jamea al anwar was being cleaned of trash?
Where was he when dai needed someone to uplift the conditions of bohras in yemen?
Where was he when SMB was recovering from stroke? Where was he when SMB went for Raudat Tahera ziarat before wafaat?
Where was he when SMB was given ghusl, kafan and dafan? (I'm sorry I do know answer to this question)

Awwal was always with Rasulullah. Moiz was always with SMB. Should we believe nass was done on Moiz? Should we believe Awwal was wasi? Moulana Ali took a backseat for 23 years while others grabbed the spotlight, should we believe he was not wasi?

Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm

In one night from being mazoon of dawat he became the dawedaar. Even though i am very young, i have seen him as mazoon. I didn't know anything about all his misdeeds before i just had respect and love for him because he was mazoon. His name was the second name taught to us in madrasa only after SMB. I was shocked to hear what he did after SMB wafaat. I didn't even have my misaq then. I remember when we gave him ziafat, we went to him again and again as he would feed us strawberries since he was not able to eat anything solid he didn't mind us having there. I remember once when i went for SMB's deedar he happened to pass by me and he put face on my hand with shafaqat and i was so happy. I am still shocked about what he did, why becoming a dai seemed so appealing to him when he could have had everything (well he already did have everything).

Exactly! He had everything and he gave it up to perform his duty. He knew laanats would be said on him in masaajid build by STS where he had led namaaz. People don’t make this kind of sacrifice on a whim. The are compelled by a deep sense of conviction. You were shocked by what? That he revealed that nass was done on him? You were shocked because you prefer to believe that a deceptive liar is your Dai?

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 11:12 pm**

ajamali wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:04 pm First Fake 53 insisted I did not attend court. Now Malgudi insists I am a paid cyber warrior. Highly amused.

Wow, of all the things I said, this is what stood out for you...

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2020 11:24 pm**

ajamali wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 7:12 am The above is a supremely flawed analysis because it is based on the assumption that SMB sidelined SKQ. The truth is that every attempt was made by the sons to sideline SKQ but SMB took every opportunity to signal to the contrary. Let me describe what I observed in the 100th milad. An event pretty close to the stroke:

1) SKQ was present for all events.
2) When MS tried to jump up and do muanaqqa to SMB before SKQ, SMB stopped him. SMB then signaled SKQ to step forward and perform muanaqqa which he performed with deep reverence. MS tried to step up again and SMB stopped him again. FD has a video that captures the whole thing and it has been posted on this forum in the past.
3) In the 100th milad, SMB only accepted one ziyafat. It was by SKQ.
4) For zohar namaaz after waaz before SMB departed, he announced “me javu chu magar bhai ne Tamara darmiyan muki ne javu chu.” Then he gave SKQ raza to lead namaaz.

.....

Can somebody post this video/link to this video? Especially if it has been posted on this forum in the past.

I have not seen this video, and I would like to see it.

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 am**

Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm
.....................

So for the sake of argument, I want you guys to accept this fact that dai is in position of Imam as believed by both sides for a few minutes.
How were a bunch of nobodys (as per FD people) like YN or QJ or SMS were able to conspire against the powerful SMB/KQ/TF?

.....

My take on your question: Because it is human nature to develop love for your own offspring vs. your half-brother. It is in our genes, an evolutionary trait that helps us survive. This is just acknowledging that we are human.

Money in the Dawat grew exponentially, and people think: Are you telling me that all this money and power will now go to my half-brother and not my kids? That is why QJ and MS and YN (so that things would go to his daughter's offspring) conspired and SMB was a human being at the end of the day. Just my take; I could be wrong; in which case, Allah forgive me.

Let me give you another worldly example, from the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, with the references attached, so that you can see the relevant links. Below are a copy of the relevant material from the links, and after that are my thoughts.

------------------------ From the Wikipedia links ---------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hassan_bin_Talal

In 1965 Hassan was named as Crown Prince of Jordan after the constitution was amended.[3] He was frequently regent during his brother's absences from the country. During Hussein's final illness in January 1999, he was replaced by his nephew Abdullah only days before the king died.[4] Abdullah subsequently inherited the throne of Jordan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ ... coronation

King Hussein frequently traveled to the United States for medical treatment after his diagnosis with cancer in 1992.[14] After Hussein returned from a six-month medical absence from Jordan in late 1998, he criticized his brother Hassan's management of Jordanian affairs in a public letter, accusing him of abusing his constitutional powers as regent.[14] On 24 January 1999, two weeks before his death, Hussein surprised everyone—including Abdullah who thought he would spend his life in the military—by replacing Hassan with his son as heir apparent.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein,_ ... r_apparent

Abdullah was not expected to succeed to the throne despite being King Hussein's eldest son; the King had appointed his younger brother Prince Hassan as heir designate in 1965.[6] Shortly before his death on 7 February 1999, the King replaced Hassan with Abdullah.[6] When Abdullah became king, he named his younger half-brother, Prince Hamzah, as heir designate on his accession.[6]
On 28 November 2004, King Abdullah removed Hamzah from his title as crown prince.[6] Though the title of crown prince was left vacant, the Constitution of Jordan provides for agnatic primogeniture, meaning the monarch's eldest son is automatically first in the line of succession to the Jordanian throne unless decreed otherwise.[6] Hussein thus became heir apparent as soon as his half-uncle lost the status, and analysts widely expected the King to bestow the formal title on Hussein.[6] The title was conferred on 2 July 2009, when a royal decree naming him as crown prince, effective immediately, was issued.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ ... #Successor
Successor[edit]
See also: Line of succession to the Jordanian throne
On 28 November 2004 Abdullah removed the title of crown prince from his half-brother, Prince Hamzah, whom he had appointed on 7 February 1999 in accordance with their father's advice.[148] In a letter to Hamzah read on Jordanian state television, Abdullah said: "Your holding this symbolic position has restrained your freedom and hindered our entrusting you with certain responsibilities that you are fully qualified to undertake."[148] Although no successor to the title was named at that time, the king was expected to appoint his son and heir apparent, Prince Hussein, crown prince.[148] Hussein received the title on 2 July 2009.[149]
---------------------------------------------- end of the material from Wikipedia -----------------------

So let us see what happened. King Talal named his son King Hussein as a king and his younger son Prince Hassan as the next in line in 1965. Human nature. King wanted his first and then second son to be kings - a biological instinct that power pass to his two offsprings. That went on, until at the end of his term, King Hussein wondered about passing all the trappings of power to his brother; instead he "switched" to his biological elder son Abdullah and named is younger son Hamza (from another wife) as the following king. Observation: King Hussein wanted his biological offspring to be the king, not his brother.So Abdullah became the king. Then Abduallah must have thought: What, all the power goes to my half-brother, and not my biological son? So likely the next king will be Abdullah's biological son. And how does he remove his half-brother? He kicks him "upstairs", saying he is being "constrained and this will free him to soar".

I read this current story from Jordan and wondered about the parallels to splits in our community? Multiple wives asking their husband to make her offspring the king; the urge to pass power/money to ones own biological children. All I am saying is that the above story is a story of human nature. That is all. And Dai and his family and everyone at their core are human.

In spite of this urge, I personally think SMB stuck to his commitment and never did any nass on his children - but his preferences/love/overlooking shortcomings of his children just indicate that he was human, in my mind.

We respect them, but they are human; just my 2 cents.

If people have thoughts on this post, I appreciate a discussion. May you have a blessed remaining days and nights of Ramadan.

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2020 1:17 am**

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 am
Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm
.....................

So for the sake of argument, I want you guys to accept this fact that dai is in position of Imam as believed by both sides for a few minutes.
How were a bunch of nobodys (as per FD people) like YN or QJ or SMS were able to conspire against the powerful SMB/KQ/TF?

.....
My take on your question: Because it is human nature to develop love for your own offspring vs. your half-brother. It is in our genes, an evolutionary trait that helps us survive. This is just acknowledging that we are human.

Money in the Dawat grew exponentially, and people think: Are you telling me that all this money and power will now go to my half-brother and not my kids? That is why QJ and MS and YN (so that things would go to his daughter's offspring) conspired and SMB was a human being at the end of the day. Just my take; I could be wrong; in which case, Allah forgive me.

Let me give you another worldly example, from the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, with the references attached, so that you can see the relevant links. Below are a copy of the relevant material from the links, and after that are my thoughts.

------------------------ From the Wikipedia links ---------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hassan_bin_Talal

In 1965 Hassan was named as Crown Prince of Jordan after the constitution was amended.[3] He was frequently regent during his brother's absences from the country. During Hussein's final illness in January 1999, he was replaced by his nephew Abdullah only days before the king died.[4] Abdullah subsequently inherited the throne of Jordan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ ... coronation

King Hussein frequently traveled to the United States for medical treatment after his diagnosis with cancer in 1992.[14] After Hussein returned from a six-month medical absence from Jordan in late 1998, he criticized his brother Hassan's management of Jordanian affairs in a public letter, accusing him of abusing his constitutional powers as regent.[14] On 24 January 1999, two weeks before his death, Hussein surprised everyone—including Abdullah who thought he would spend his life in the military—by replacing Hassan with his son as heir apparent.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein,_ ... r_apparent

Abdullah was not expected to succeed to the throne despite being King Hussein's eldest son; the King had appointed his younger brother Prince Hassan as heir designate in 1965.[6] Shortly before his death on 7 February 1999, the King replaced Hassan with Abdullah.[6] When Abdullah became king, he named his younger half-brother, Prince Hamzah, as heir designate on his accession.[6]
On 28 November 2004, King Abdullah removed Hamzah from his title as crown prince.[6] Though the title of crown prince was left vacant, the Constitution of Jordan provides for agnatic primogeniture, meaning the monarch's eldest son is automatically first in the line of succession to the Jordanian throne unless decreed otherwise.[6] Hussein thus became heir apparent as soon as his half-uncle lost the status, and analysts widely expected the King to bestow the formal title on Hussein.[6] The title was conferred on 2 July 2009, when a royal decree naming him as crown prince, effective immediately, was issued.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ ... #Successor
Successor[edit]
See also: Line of succession to the Jordanian throne
On 28 November 2004 Abdullah removed the title of crown prince from his half-brother, Prince Hamzah, whom he had appointed on 7 February 1999 in accordance with their father's advice.[148] In a letter to Hamzah read on Jordanian state television, Abdullah said: "Your holding this symbolic position has restrained your freedom and hindered our entrusting you with certain responsibilities that you are fully qualified to undertake."[148] Although no successor to the title was named at that time, the king was expected to appoint his son and heir apparent, Prince Hussein, crown prince.[148] Hussein received the title on 2 July 2009.[149]
---------------------------------------------- end of the material from Wikipedia -----------------------

So let us see what happened. King Talal named his son King Hussein as a king and his younger son Prince Hassan as the next in line in 1965. Human nature. King wanted his first and then second son to be kings - a biological instinct that power pass to his two offsprings. That went on, until at the end of his term, King Hussein wondered about passing all the trappings of power to his brother; instead he "switched" to his biological elder son Abdullah and named is younger son Hamza (from another wife) as the following king. Observation: King Hussein wanted his biological offspring to be the king, not his brother.So Abdullah became the king. Then Abduallah must have thought: What, all the power goes to my half-brother, and not my biological son? So likely the next king will be Abdullah's biological son. And how does he remove his half-brother? He kicks him "upstairs", saying he is being "constrained and this will free him to soar".

I read this current story from Jordan and wondered about the parallels to splits in our community? Multiple wives asking their husband to make her offspring the king; the urge to pass power/money to ones own biological children. All I am saying is that the above story is a story of human nature. That is all. And Dai and his family and everyone at their core are human.

In spite of this urge, I personally think SMB stuck to his commitment and never did any nass on his children - but his preferences/love/overlooking shortcomings of his children just indicate that he was human, in my mind.

We respect them, but they are human; just my 2 cents.

If people have thoughts on this post, I appreciate a discussion. May you have a blessed remaining days and nights of Ramadan.

The Paid Cyber-warriors will silence your post with their usual chatter....regardless, very well said.

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2020 8:54 am**

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 am
Qadir wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:16 pm
.....................

So for the sake of argument, I want you guys to accept this fact that dai is in position of Imam as believed by both sides for a few minutes.
How were a bunch of nobodys (as per FD people) like YN or QJ or SMS were able to conspire against the powerful SMB/KQ/TF?

.....
My take on your question: Because it is human nature to develop love for your own offspring vs. your half-brother. It is in our genes, an evolutionary trait that helps us survive. This is just acknowledging that we are human.

Money in the Dawat grew exponentially, and people think: Are you telling me that all this money and power will now go to my half-brother and not my kids? That is why QJ and MS and YN (so that things would go to his daughter's offspring) conspired and SMB was a human being at the end of the day. Just my take; I could be wrong; in which case, Allah forgive me.

Let me give you another worldly example, from the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, with the references attached, so that you can see the relevant links. Below are a copy of the relevant material from the links, and after that are my thoughts.

------------------------ From the Wikipedia links ---------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hassan_bin_Talal

In 1965 Hassan was named as Crown Prince of Jordan after the constitution was amended.[3] He was frequently regent during his brother's absences from the country. During Hussein's final illness in January 1999, he was replaced by his nephew Abdullah only days before the king died.[4] Abdullah subsequently inherited the throne of Jordan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ ... coronation

King Hussein frequently traveled to the United States for medical treatment after his diagnosis with cancer in 1992.[14] After Hussein returned from a six-month medical absence from Jordan in late 1998, he criticized his brother Hassan's management of Jordanian affairs in a public letter, accusing him of abusing his constitutional powers as regent.[14] On 24 January 1999, two weeks before his death, Hussein surprised everyone—including Abdullah who thought he would spend his life in the military—by replacing Hassan with his son as heir apparent.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein,_ ... r_apparent

Abdullah was not expected to succeed to the throne despite being King Hussein's eldest son; the King had appointed his younger brother Prince Hassan as heir designate in 1965.[6] Shortly before his death on 7 February 1999, the King replaced Hassan with Abdullah.[6] When Abdullah became king, he named his younger half-brother, Prince Hamzah, as heir designate on his accession.[6]
On 28 November 2004, King Abdullah removed Hamzah from his title as crown prince.[6] Though the title of crown prince was left vacant, the Constitution of Jordan provides for agnatic primogeniture, meaning the monarch's eldest son is automatically first in the line of succession to the Jordanian throne unless decreed otherwise.[6] Hussein thus became heir apparent as soon as his half-uncle lost the status, and analysts widely expected the King to bestow the formal title on Hussein.[6] The title was conferred on 2 July 2009, when a royal decree naming him as crown prince, effective immediately, was issued.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ ... #Successor
Successor[edit]
See also: Line of succession to the Jordanian throne
On 28 November 2004 Abdullah removed the title of crown prince from his half-brother, Prince Hamzah, whom he had appointed on 7 February 1999 in accordance with their father's advice.[148] In a letter to Hamzah read on Jordanian state television, Abdullah said: "Your holding this symbolic position has restrained your freedom and hindered our entrusting you with certain responsibilities that you are fully qualified to undertake."[148] Although no successor to the title was named at that time, the king was expected to appoint his son and heir apparent, Prince Hussein, crown prince.[148] Hussein received the title on 2 July 2009.[149]
---------------------------------------------- end of the material from Wikipedia -----------------------

So let us see what happened. King Talal named his son King Hussein as a king and his younger son Prince Hassan as the next in line in 1965. Human nature. King wanted his first and then second son to be kings - a biological instinct that power pass to his two offsprings. That went on, until at the end of his term, King Hussein wondered about passing all the trappings of power to his brother; instead he "switched" to his biological elder son Abdullah and named is younger son Hamza (from another wife) as the following king. Observation: King Hussein wanted his biological offspring to be the king, not his brother.So Abdullah became the king. Then Abduallah must have thought: What, all the power goes to my half-brother, and not my biological son? So likely the next king will be Abdullah's biological son. And how does he remove his half-brother? He kicks him "upstairs", saying he is being "constrained and this will free him to soar".

I read this current story from Jordan and wondered about the parallels to splits in our community? Multiple wives asking their husband to make her offspring the king; the urge to pass power/money to ones own biological children. All I am saying is that the above story is a story of human nature. That is all. And Dai and his family and everyone at their core are human.

In spite of this urge, I personally think SMB stuck to his commitment and never did any nass on his children - but his preferences/love/overlooking shortcomings of his children just indicate that he was human, in my mind.

We respect them, but they are human; just my 2 cents.

If people have thoughts on this post, I appreciate a discussion. May you have a blessed remaining days and nights of Ramadan.

That's very respectful response but that is exactly what i was trying to point in my post that since SMS and TF side both believe that dai has spiritual power which is comparable to that of imam, we don't expect dai to get influenced by others.
Also, I don't know who said that STS promised his wife, her son will become dai. That's one other claim heavily cited without evidence.

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 11:04 am**

Astagferullah, "Dai has spiritual power which is comparable to that of imam." saying this is Shirk e Azeem.

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2020 6:37 am**

Challenge Accepted
https://qutbibohras.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... ed_19.html

Abdeali Qutbuddin has almost dedicated his entire time during the holy month of Ramadan this year venting out his frustrations over numerous humiliations and defeats the Qutbis have faced on all fronts.

In his recent videos, he poses a challenge and portrays it to be one that’s indestructible. We’ll discuss his so-called challenge in this post. But first, let’s clear the air by clarifying, once again, the incorrect statements made by them. In many instances their own kin have contradicted each other:

Sulaiman Nabi AS performed a public nass, in the presence of witnesses. Discussed here & here:
Syedna Ali b. Moula Mohammed’s book, Taaj al Aqaid chapter does not talk about the Mazoon in the chapter Abdeali cites. Discussed here.
Abdeali compares the alleged nass on KQ to that of Ghadeer e Khum. The difference is, Ghadeer had 70,000 witnesses, and KQ had none. Highlighted here.

Now that we’ve got that out of the way, let’s talk about his challenge.

Abdeali questions why Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS does not appear in court to defend his position. Abdeali assumes that this provocation is enough to break through our arguments, and compares it to the small stone that the Prophet Dawood AS used in his sling to bring down the mighty Goliath.

For starters, the Qutbis fail to realize that in the larger scheme of things, their fitnat is of literally no significance. Their repeated humiliating defeats on all fronts - from USA to UK to India - have reduced them to nothing but nuisance value. The Syedna and his esteemed hudood of Dawat would much rather spend their time in the service of Islam, guiding the community, striving for the betterment of mumineen, than swatting a fly.

Their calls to polemics were responded with silence, because ‘silence is the best reply to a fool’. The Quran teaches us to ignore the ignorant (jaahil) [7:199], and to simply respond by saying salaam when they address us.[24:63] Once, Waleed bin Uqbah confronted Moulana Ali AS with a challenge, and Moulana Ali’s response was to plainly ignore him.[1]

This is something the Qutbis can take a cue from. A large chunk of their sermons are focussed on spewing hate filled comments, and expressing their frustration. Abdeali’s entire Ramadan this year seems to have been spent on this. He’s so filled with fury it’s affected his demeanor. A truly pathetic state of affairs.

“Allow your enemies their space to hate; they will destroy themselves in the process.” - Unknown Quote

To add to that, the lawyers representing Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin recently informed courts that the Syedna would not be appearing in court. A strategy the Qutbis never saw coming. This has sent the Qutbis into a frothing frenzy.

As the renowned military strategist once said:

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting” - Sun Tzu

“Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting.” - Sun Tzu

The Lawyers informed the Court that the first witness would be Dr Omar Malik, a British Neurologist who had attended to Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin at Cromwell Hospital in London after the stroke. He has submitted a sworn affidavit, that based on his observation and care, Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin was physically and medically capable of making the declaration of nass and of conducting the khushi majlis in the hospital. (This nass audio and majlis video broadcasted worldwide in Zikra 1435H). Dr Malik’s statements will challenge Khuzaima Qutbuddin’s claim that Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin was unable to speak in order to pronounce the nass.

In essence, the strategy of the true Fatemi Dai, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS, is that a doctor’s medical statement is enough to destroy their entire claim. Put simply, the nass & tawqeef (nass amongst witnesses) that took place in Cromwell Hospital is sufficient, and much more fundamentally grounded in true Fatemi faith, than Khuzaima Qutbuddin’s baseless claim of a private nass without witnesses. Once established, there’s no need to delve into interpretations and unfounded statements, when the subject matter of nass is plain and simple. Thus, the metaphor of the tiny stone used by the Prophet Dawood to bring down his enemy is more apt in this context. (Comparing Khuzaima or Taher Qutbuddin to Goliath would be a gross exaggeration, and an insult to Goliath.)

As the days go by, we shall continue to see the Qutbis slide into the quicksand of deceit and lies they themselves created.

“Never interfere with an enemy that is in the process of committing suicide.” - Napoleon Bonaparte

***

[1]Note: The Qutbi's challenge was addressed by this blog in 2017. Till date, the Qutbis haven’t been able to refute it. So, the onus is on them.

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2020 11:12 am**

So Dr. Malik WILL testify that SMB was perfectly capable of conferring nass in the hospital yet a few days later, presumably with time to recuperate from the stroke, he was unable to identify the very man he allegedly designated to lead the community. I see that the quicksand is rising fast around you Feku.

So SMB was fine in the hospital, he was fine allegedly after the nass drama according to claims made here previously but precisely in front of thousands of his followers, he could not recognize the very man he chose and the man he chose felt compelled to go play along with the deception about what his alleged naas had just said.

If MS had the balls and a compassionate heart and if he was righteous And if truth was with him, he would have said, “Enough! I am taking my sick father home. He is clearly ill.” That is what we expect from a true leader. Sorry pal.... your tall tales don’t hold up.

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2020 9:28 pm**

May it be noted that Feku has yet to address the deception by Moiz and MS’s willingness to go along with it.

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 pm**

Saif53 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:37 am Challenge Accepted
https://qutbibohras.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... ed_19.html

......

The Lawyers informed the Court that the first witness would be Dr Omar Malik, a British Neurologist who had attended to Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin at Cromwell Hospital in London after the stroke. He has submitted a sworn affidavit, that based on his observation and care, Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin was physically and medically capable of making the declaration of nass and of conducting the khushi majlis in the hospital. (This nass audio and majlis video broadcasted worldwide in Zikra 1435H). Dr Malik’s statements will challenge Khuzaima Qutbuddin’s claim that Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin was unable to speak in order to pronounce the nass.

In essence, the strategy of the true Fatemi Dai, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS, is that a doctor’s medical statement is enough to destroy their entire claim. Put simply, the nass & tawqeef (nass amongst witnesses) that took place in Cromwell Hospital is sufficient, and much more fundamentally grounded in true Fatemi faith, than Khuzaima Qutbuddin’s baseless claim of a private nass without witnesses. Once established, there’s no need to delve into interpretations and unfounded statements, when the subject matter of nass is plain and simple. Thus, the metaphor of the tiny stone used by the Prophet Dawood to bring down his enemy is more apt in this context. (Comparing Khuzaima or Taher Qutbuddin to Goliath would be a gross exaggeration, and an insult to Goliath.)

..............................

***

[1]Note: The Qutbi's challenge was addressed by this blog in 2017. Till date, the Qutbis haven’t been able to refute it. So, the onus is on them.

I would think that Fatemi Dawat would do well to read this, and make sure they have a proper answer and strategy to address this. Whether we agree with Safi53 or not, he is giving an idea of what MAY be their (MS BS') approach.

There are many questions for Saif53, but one of them is: Saying SMB was physically capable is NOT a proof that he actually did do any nass. If so, this is a private hospital in London, and the hospital should have recorded video of a patient in ICU. just show the official (not Abdul Qadir BS phone or some other person's recording) hospital audio/video from that time period. Why not make that public, if available?

And Dr. Malik has submitted a written record. Is it publicly available? And there was also a letter from him or Dr. Costello that was on this forum. Can somebody who has it handy share again?

Finally, anybody has an idea when things are likely to resume after the lockdown?

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 pm**

Saif53 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:37 am Challenge Accepted
https://qutbibohras.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... ed_19.html

......

The Lawyers informed the Court that the first witness would be Dr Omar Malik, a British Neurologist who had attended to Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin at Cromwell Hospital in London after the stroke. He has submitted a sworn affidavit, that based on his observation and care, Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin was physically and medically capable of making the declaration of nass and of conducting the khushi majlis in the hospital. (This nass audio and majlis video broadcasted worldwide in Zikra 1435H). Dr Malik’s statements will challenge Khuzaima Qutbuddin’s claim that Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin was unable to speak in order to pronounce the nass.

In essence, the strategy of the true Fatemi Dai, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS, is that a doctor’s medical statement is enough to destroy their entire claim. Put simply, the nass & tawqeef (nass amongst witnesses) that took place in Cromwell Hospital is sufficient, and much more fundamentally grounded in true Fatemi faith, than Khuzaima Qutbuddin’s baseless claim of a private nass without witnesses. Once established, there’s no need to delve into interpretations and unfounded statements, when the subject matter of nass is plain and simple. Thus, the metaphor of the tiny stone used by the Prophet Dawood to bring down his enemy is more apt in this context. (Comparing Khuzaima or Taher Qutbuddin to Goliath would be a gross exaggeration, and an insult to Goliath.)

..............................

***

[1]Note: The Qutbi's challenge was addressed by this blog in 2017. Till date, the Qutbis haven’t been able to refute it. So, the onus is on them.

I would think that Fatemi Dawat would do well to read this, and make sure they have a proper answer and strategy to address this. Whether we agree with Safi53 or not, he is giving an idea of what MAY be their (MS BS') approach.

There are many questions for Saif53, but one of them is: Saying SMB was physically capable is NOT a proof that he actually did do any nass. If so, this is a private hospital in London, and the hospital should have recorded video of a patient in ICU. just show the official (not Abdul Qadir BS phone or some other person's recording) hospital audio/video from that time period. Why not make that public, if available?

And Dr. Malik has submitted a written record. Is it publicly available? And there was also a letter from him or Dr. Costello that was on this forum. Can somebody who has it handy share again?

Finally, anybody has an idea when things are likely to resume after the lockdown?

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2020 11:47 pm**

reference to the letter from Costello and Malik

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11374&p=176941&hili ... lo#p176941

Is this letter available publicly?

Posted: **Thu May 21, 2020 3:26 am**

Fake53’s swagger over the letter is reminiscent of Goliath walking down the hill to meet his fate.
Fake53 said MS cannot come to the court to meet the challenge because he is busy serving his people.
If the calls floating around on WhatsApp are anything to go by, he is busy extorting the people and serving himself

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 7:43 pm**

byculla wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 9:21 am @James I will point out your LIES. Rest I have already explained in my post. (Read again the zikr of Syedna Dawood RA which you slyly omitted).

My post is referring to SMB RA bayan mubarak. You find that devoid of facts ? Who is on baatil now ?

On a forum,personal anonymous recollections of bayans don't amount to much.I have zero trust and zero interest in you paraphrasing Duat bayaans. Now if you were to back up your words with so and so Waaz on so and so date,then that can be checked and discussed upon.So there is no slyness on my part. Just plain common sense and logic.

james wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 8:02 am has ever in the history of Dawat,a dawedaar has done dawa to be the Mansoos in the lifetime of Naas? Taqqiyah doesn't apply here. Munafiq actions applies here.

Completely incorrect (since you refer to SKQ RA as dawedaar - nauzobillah) . SKQ RA did not reveal his nass during lifetime of SMB RA! No evidence you provided.

Either you didn't understand the question or you tried to steer it off track. Here,let me try again.

Has there ever been a Dawedaar to be Mansoos in the lifetime of a Naas in dawat history? Haqq always comes first. Baatil always follows Haqq.

Gadheer e Khum - Haqq.

Event of Saqifah- Baatil

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin's numerous instances of Nass on Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS amongst private witnesses,written records,public declaration in his LIFETIME - HAQQ

Darus us Saqifah after the PASSING AWAY of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA - BAATIL.

Ali bin Ibrahim accepted Nass for 3 years and then did dawa of rutba of Itlaq.

Khuzaima accepted Nass for 3 years and then did dawa of Itlaq.

Also,"The amanat of so called Nass" has been refuted extensively.If you want,I can rehash all these points extensively. Website domain registered in the lifetime of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA waiting for him to pass away so that Khuzaima and his ilk can do their FITNAT in the open because guess what? No dawedaar till date in history has done a dawa in the lifetime of NAAS.

You have tried very hard to spin that Abdeali and his brothers were doing taqiyyah but in reality they were munafiqeen during the last three years of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA's era. A conspiracy was hatched by the disgruntled half brother and his litter just like in the time of Prophet Mohammed SAW's time against his Wasi Ameerul Mumineen Ali ibn Abi Talib AS.

Their true intentions and the hatred they harbored for the 52nd Dai Mutlaq RA came out in the open when they not only boycotted 52nd Dai RA's kafan dafan but also prevented others from attending it.Not only that,they prevented the grandsons and granddaughters of 52nd Dai RA's funeral procession as a way to hurt the Mansoos 53rd Dai Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS.

Even Khuzaima's own personal secretary and other people close to him rejected Khuzaima's claims and you want to spin it as they are afraid of barat. Shame on you for making up excuses willy nilly.You think you can make up as you go and you won't be challenged on that?

Knowing what happened on 4th Rajab he had inkling. I repeat again never in my memory has SKQ RA missed the urus mubarak of STS RA. He attended each time. This was an occasion on which he knew his "not" appearing would count (and it did - except hypocrites like @James will not accept).

Everything on that day was planned by the conspirators. You think the 'shawls' appeared magically ? Go figure.

Waah.You keep beating the drum of Khuzaima never missing Urs Mubarak of Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA but then what was stopping him from doing zyarat in the afternoon? Even after wafaat of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA,he did not care to do zyarat and was rushing towards Saqeefah.

Turn a blind eye to every single word written above. Your whole pack of lies and deceit falls like a deck of cards with the mention of just one personality.

Mukasir ud Dawat of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA- Syedi Husain bs Husamuddin

If you say that Mazoon's words are so and so because his name is mentioned in the meethaq then what about Mukasir eh? The number of times Mazoon's name is mentioned is the same as Mukasir. Both are the zaire dast of Dai Mutlaq.

If both of them cannot go astray then your fundamentals are crushed because they are at opposites.

Like I said,mention of just one personality is enough to show the Baatil you are peddling.

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 pm**

Bhai Qadir, (or anybody else),

I had asked for that 2nd Moharram Waiz (in 2011), where SMB is supposed to have done the waiz. (after the stroke)

I am still waiting for a video or a link to that waiz. The link that was provided was not for that waiz. Please provide the correct link.

Thanks.

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2020 6:46 am**

malgudidays wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:37 am KQ lost the battle long before Nass(Subject to believe) was done on SMS in Raudat Tahera.

YN & Co had successfully maligned his image among the masses. Plus most of the insiders knew about KQs confrontations and issues with SMB.

KQ was never around SMB in his last years. All this and many other things that were done by KQ only added to the hidden contempt people already had for KQ.

On so many occasions I have witnessed people talking about him all sorts of things but then closing the conversation saying "Moula ye rakha chey, to apna si kai na kehwaai."

Truth is which both SMS and STF agents on this forum won't accept is that.

It is a fact that STS had as per the prenup promise to his youngest wife that one of the offspring from her would be designated as heir to SMB, and of all the sons he had with her KQ was the one with the most potential, and hence he was indeed prepared for the office of Dai al Mutlaq by STS and had clearly instructed SMB to do so.

Hence, in the early years of SMB's reign, it is a fact that no one can deny that everyone use to do Sajda/Taqbil al Ard to KQ, and use to address with him all sorts of legacy Dawat Terms that are used for a mansoos.

But two things went against KQ.

1. His character flaws like, arrogance, over-confidence, etc.
2. Having a dynamic and genius YN as his nemesis... YN went for a long game and succeeded in it.. and the KQs own character flaws made it easier for him to achieve what he wanted.

Now KQ has ample of evidence to prove that Nass was in fact done on him in early years and SMB had promised STS that he will nominate him as his successor( which SMS side will never accept) but it is also a fact that SMB did not do so and Nominated SMS, and most of the people love and admire SMS, Progressives/reformists can ridicule and insult SMS as much as they want, but the fact is that people see him as a very humble, kind, and common man's Dai, who speaks to them in a very simple language and connects with them at a very personal level.

Now, KQ side is hell-bent on acquiring the sole proprietorship of Dawat Hadiya Trust based on early nass evidence that they have and they are saying nass once done cannot be revoked. Because it is divinely guided and divinity is infallible.

and SMS side is hell-bent on saying yes it can be done and they are trying to prove it by citing various controversial issues of the past. But maintains silence when one asks them how can infallible divinity changes its mind.

What both sides are hiding and not ready to accept is that there is a difference between Nass that a Mustaqar Imam does on another Mustaqar Imam and the one that Dai does on another Dai. and that Dai of Satr does not have the same Ismat as the Mustaqar Imam, because accepting this won't be good for the business.

Because, the fundamental doctrine that gives the current Dai al Mutlaq the divine status and control over everything today is this carefully, meticulously developed concept, which every Mulla repeats over and over again...."Imam (as) aney Satr ma ena Dai" by prefixing and suffixing this after every sentence, the current ruling dispensation has successfully established the concept Ismat equivalent to that of Imam for dai. Which is far from reality.(nobody even dares to use term Kal masum anymore for the Dai, thanks to various asbaaqs by Ali Asger Kalimuddin and his dead Brother Qasim Hakimuddin)

In fact, the very fact that makes the office of Dai al Mutlaq so special is that he has the full authority to choose his successor, whether he gets Taeed or not.
I have myself heard SMB say this in a waaz of Ashara 2007 that, If a dai gets taaeed then great but even he does not then he has the right to appoint whoever he sees fit, and then went on to give the example of Nass on Syedna Mohammed Ezzuddin by Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin where the later chose the former based on his discretion, he said that this very fact gives the position of Dai al Mutlaq a rank above Mustawda Imams because they were dependent for everything on Mustaqar Imam, which is not the case with Dai al Mutlaq.(One of the many dogmas created in last 100 yrs to give Dai the position he enjoys today)

By taking away Ismat or rather Ismat equivalent to that of a Mustaqar Imam from Dai, neither side wants to dig their own grave.

This would take away the blind following that people have today for their respective Dai's

Truth is STS wanted KQ to be 53rd and that he had instructed SMB to do so, but SMB did not follow up on it because both KQ turned out to be a rotten egg and he preferred his son over him and someone else(YN) was ready to fight this battle for him then why not.

Both the parties will never accept or rather openly discuss this.

Those close to STF clan know very well how much love(hate) and liking(contempt) they had for SMB.

Accepting this truth will reveal that Dai al Mutlaq is not as divine as thought to be and does not have same Ismat as a Mustaqar Imam from the progeny of Ahl al Kisa(SWA).
it also reveals that not everything that a Dai al Mutlaq does(based on the admission of SMB) is through Taeed, it also reveals many other things, which I leave to the readers imagination. out of personal respect for STS, SMB, and the office of Dai al Mutlaq I would not elaborate on that, because, even without Taeed or Infallible divinity at the help.
It is an office created by the Raza of Imam (as) and STS, SMB, and today SMS have done a lot for the well-being of the community, and Progressive/reformists can ridicule and say all sort of nasty things about the regular SMB followers, but they are not as bad as they are portrayed to be in term of any social metrics. Infact one of the many reasons these progressives/reformists don't give up on their golden ITS card is because they know very well, that as compared to any other community, the culture overall social and political respect of the DB community is second to none. Kothar has many evil aspects to it, but one thing about which Kothar doesn't think much before spending any amount necessary on, is when it comes to the social and political security of the community members.

Very good post. You have explained almost every thing.

Dawoodi Bohra Forum

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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court