Dawoodi Bohra Forum

...and so if someone(including you) supports such an establishment, we will protest (and criticise him) in the greator common interest of the society.

PS: read kalim's post in "blind following"

Tahir
Criticise is fine , I have no problem with that , but you go beyond that , you use foul language , its like telling a Hindu that your God or Gods and sadhus are all liars and you all are stupid baboons, it may be right for u but what will it do to his feelings and how about his reaction at that point!!

hj786

Thanks for the reply.

I am afraid you missed the point. Currently I am not going as back as prophets at this thread. I may believe we do NOT need Dai or Imam TODAY ... but if I feel we may need, and assume I say we do need, so I turn to Dai and listen to what he has said. There are some obvious questions, very basic to very Bohraism come to mind. I narrated those. Matam and Hussain are the corner stones of Bohra Religion.

1. Nowadays we donot pray Sunnah at masjids, insttead we pray two rakah for Dai. Why this change?

2. I repeat my questions:
2.1 Gabriel use to come to Prophets ONLY, do you agree or not? Assume Gabriel came to Hussain on Ashura Day and even talked to him. BUT how do we know what they talked. Hussain was martyred after the conversation and no one went near him except enemies who martyred him. Syedana and his Amils repeat and repeat and repeat this story at EVERY type and kind of Majlis. The logical questions come mind AND mind you I am talking of very BASICs of Bohra faith. So how do we know about the conversation b/w those two,
2.2 Even the conversation b/w Shemar and Hussain. Who has narrated those and who listened to that. Hussain was ALONE, ladies were in tents, Hussain was surrounded by enemies. I have doubts about the conversation b/w Shemar and Hussain. This gets repeated so sososo many times. Hundreds of Marsias are based on this. Whole Matam is based on this.

As for your suggestion about 'authenticity', yes, we should 'question' what is the authenticity. If you DO NOT, you will accept anything. I have judge and rationalize too. There are cerain things which are logical in themselves only like existance of God.

I hope I have made myself clear.

JC:

I'm gonna try and explain the events of Kerbala
s-l-o-w-l-y to you....slowly, because it's obvious what a moron you are...and I say it with all the love a Muslim can have for a fellow Muslim who is an idiot.

Yes, the events of Kerbala are cited in SEVERAL Sunni and Shia texts. Of course, NO ONE can see Jibraeel, and the only ones alive after Ashura were Yezids (God's curse on him) soldiers...I doubt they would be impartial even if they saw a divine event.

Imam Hussain A.S. was mortally wounded by the time the shahadat was declared. He had several wounds from arrows, stones, etc. His enemies didn't eactly treat him to rose peatls and honey. Remember, Husain Imam was the ONLY religious figure YET that actually went and picked up EACH AND EVERY body of the martyrs---a feat I have no doubt your primitive brain has no capacity to comprehend. During this process, the Imam was constantly attacked, and suffered several wounds.

By the time of the shahadat, the Imam was too weak to even dismount from his horse. Anyone who owns horses or has ridden with one for a long time knows that these animals are extremely loyal and intelligent. The animal understood from the way the Imam was positioned that if the Imam tried to dismount, he would fall. I have seen horses do taht when there is a little child on them, so it's no surprise to see something like this.

As to the conversation between Imam Hussain and Shimr (God's curse on him and his progeny), well, take a look at Sunni texts about the Imam's oratory DURING Ashura. I would NOT be surprised if he had a conversation with Shimr. Infact, the conversation was nothing but a small notation for Shimr not to bludgeon theImam to death, or something like that. What is the consequence of this? Shimr had to kill the Imam, who was WEAPONLESS, infront of his army. During those days (as is the custom during wars now) you NEVER kill an unarmed man. [FYI (you might just get this,idiot) during WWII, US soldiers would not shoot Nazi soldiers until they forced them to pick up their weapons-then shoot them.] By killing the Imam in this manner, the Imam achieved victory in the eyes of the Muslim community.....read the history books of what happened to Yezid (God's curse on him and his progeny) after Kerbala.

So, before you say baseless and dumb things, please go read....I know, I know, you are illiterate, but get your friends, co-workers, etc to read the texts for you...I promise, you will be enlightened!

Thank You Al Muaizz , JazakAllah!!

al muizz,
as side comment to what you wrote...it is reported that the when the body of imam hussein finally started to fall, he had so many arrows driven into his body, that the arrows actually held him up until they broke or came loose. some orator report the image of a purcupine.

While it is instructive to investigate historical circumstances that gave rise to the myth of Ashura, it is never wise to question a believer on the truth of his beliefs. He can always find reasons to back up his belief.

If you were to question an ardent Hindu if Hanuman really swallowed up the Sun plunging the universe into odarkness, he will point you to Valmiki and millions of words of commentaries written on Ramayana.

No one would have been privy to convesation between Imam Husain and Jibreel on the day of Ashura. But that conversation took place is considered unassailable "truth" by believers who will never see a gaping hole in the story if you shine a light of reason on the episode.

Just before Shahadat of Imam Husain, Jibreel offers his army of farishton to enable Husain to wipe off Yazid's forces from the face of the earth. Husain askes Jibreel what was Allah's wish. Jibreel replies that Allah wishes that Husain accept martyrdom.

Think about this for a moment. Could Jibreel ever offer the help if he knew it was against Allah's wish? What if Husan had accepted Jibreel's offer? Would Jibreel go againts Allah's commandment? Unlike humans, angels do not have free will, so why did JIbreel offer his help?
I think I know a true believer's answer to this question. Do you have an answer?

Well, Porous:

FACTS, then. As I mentioned earlier, the event of Imam Husain AS and Jibraeel is part of the mystique of religion. As Isa Nabi was crucified, he could have changed his message to avoid being crucified...what would happen then?

We can speculate till the cows come home, but history is embedded in blood. If you believe that the Prophets and Imams had divine powers, then you believe. A pot of clay doesn't fear water....it is its destiny to carry it, and it does not crumble under it. The same can be said of the Prophets and the Imams. They were destined to pay for our sins by their suffering....it's like an atonement for man's sins. Now, you can believe it and you are a believer. You don't believe it, and it has no consequence to you, so why bother about the Bohras, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc, anyway? If you don't believe in any of this, then you have no arguement about the Bohra community!

Even If you remove the mythological part associated with the events of Ashura, there remains a fact that it is still an event that changed the history of Islam.

There are various types of intellect among any society and all needs to be satisfied and this could be the reason, dramatisation and mythology crept in the religion.

All this is not just unique to bohras or Ashura ..

Sorry, Porus, for misspelling your ID.

As to your question.....

"Think about this for a moment. Could Jibreel ever offer the help if he knew it was against Allah's wish? What if Husan had accepted Jibreel's offer? Would Jibreel go againts Allah's commandment? Unlike humans, angels do not have free will, so why did JIbreel offer his help?"

Jibraeel was there ON COMMAND OF GOD! GOD commanded Jibraeel and the Angels to go to Husain AS. The teaching is, there was one final test for this human being who gave everything for God.... how true is his faith? How could you test someone like Imam Husain at this time? It seems totally logical to me!

If Jibraeel came on God's command, then it follows that God as we all believe, knew what the outcome was gonna be...so this was an opportunity for the Angels to get a glimpse of a Man who rose to the level of being so close to God that God sent ALL HIS ANGELS TO MEET HIM AS HE REACHED HEAVEN!

So, by default, God knew Husain Imam was not going to beg for his life to be spared. A mortal would have begged for the Lord, or worse, given up hope on the Lord. Husain Imam showed his majesty in the Dua, Allahumma anta sikati fi kulle karbin wa rajaahi!"

Of course, if you don't believe any of these events actually transpired, then there is no point arguing as there is no common ground for an arguement.

Al-Muizz,

I commend you on your reply. Spoken like a true believer! And how did you find out that Jibreel acted thus on Allah's command? To give one final test to Husain?

I think you also touched on an answer that I was expecting of a true mumin. It is that while angels have no free will, they are allowed to question Allah about His design. In this instance, divinity of Husain is merged with divinity of Allah. Therefore for Jibreel to ask Husain is in fact the same asking Allah.

This is the case of two in one. Like the trinity of Christians. Like Jesus said, my father and I are one. Ashura is the drama of the passion of Husain on the same lines as Easter is the drama of the passion of Christ. Both are theatre. Both serve to dramatize faith. And both have had monumental significance and consequences in history.

Value of Ashura lies in the lessons it teaches for personal conduct. It has almost no value if it only serves as an occasion to chant incessantly and to beat yourselves

A Blessed Jumoa to you all.

First, Porus, my statement in no way alludes to Husain AS as being like God. In fact, that's the very reason why I wrote the Imam's supplication (Dua) to God. "Allahuma anta sikati fi kulle karbin wa rajaahi" is a beautiful Dua. When translated from Arabic, it means,"Oh God, You are my Solace for every trial and tribulation....."

Clearly, the Imam himself is giving Thanks and Praises to God for taking care of him, so how did the question of Husain AS as being similar to God come about? I said, the symbolism of the Angels is a sign of respect God Almighty shows the Imam for his sacrifice for Him. That the Imam gave everything-I mean everything-for the Lord. Not once did he doubt, or question his role in the events. What the Imam did on that day is incredible-a sign of his majesty as a human being. Let's recap.
1. He actually allowed Hur's army access to water when during those days the first camp to arrive at the water site owns it. Husain AS arrived there 1st, and he could have refused water to Hur's army, but he didn't

2. On the night of Ashura, he actually cared genuinely for those with him, so they do not come to harm next day.

3. On Ashura, he instructed that they do not shoot the first arrow--he never wanted the conflict, and infact pointed out the enemies inconsistent arguement over and over

4. He actually elevated an enemy, Hur, to martyrdom. He forgave Hur's past enmities with him. What would you have done?

5. The historical accounts say that everytime a martyr came to ask permission from the Imam, he looked crestfallen and extremely sad---he felt heavily for thier lives and the pain they were going to endure even briefly

6. When a martyr fell, the Imam personally would go to the battlefield and pick up the body, so the enemies to not desecrate them. Now, how many Presidents, Generals in history have you known to do that? In the middle of the battle? The Imam cared about each and everyone of them so much that he literally honored them. Imagine Bush coming to Iraq and picking a dead soldier's body from the battlefield.....And those of you who think it was only for Arabs, he went and picked bodies of Bilal-a Black Muslim Martyr as well as a few other Black Muslims--there was no racism or that one was superior or inferior. In the US Army, Blacks still get treated as 2nd class, even though they constitute a sizable fraction of the armed forces.

7. The Imam actually had a wedding Abdullah to Sakina-in the middle of a battle!

8. The Imam buried his own son, a 6 month old infant AliAsghar. Even in Christianity, there has never been a report of a father burying his infant child...it is too much grief for a parent to see an infant die....and even this after seeing ALL his followers die.

9. During battle, historical accounts say that when the Imam killed an enemy he would move aside so they could come and pick the body, without attacking them. When the Imam di the same, the enemies were shooting arrows, throwing stones, etc.

10. In the heat of battle, the Imam actually PRAYS ZOHR! How many of you will remember to do that?

How do I know God sent the Angels to greet the Imam? Well, that is the mystery we call FAITH. Either you believe it happened, or you don't! I mean, do you believe Isa Nabi could raise the dead? Do you believe Musa Nabi split the Red Sea? Do you believe God revealed the Quran to Rasoolallah? Do you believe in heaven? Or the concept of sin? Or even that you will be punished after death, or even that you have a life after death?

See what I'm saying? It's a a leap of FAITH.

Thank you al-Muizz.

We need not discuss this further. I am well aware of all mystical reasons devised to appeal the faithful to "confirm" their faith in the divine drama of Ashura.

And having listened to Ashura waez for over 30 years, I know most of the episodes verbatim. So you are not saying anything new. The issue was about how you know all that to be true.

You said that you believe because you believe and you call that faith. Fine by me.

Origin of your beliefs are in the brainwashing you received when you were too little to understand what you were being told. These beliefs are there because there is safety associated with it in your subconsious.

If the proof of truth is that you believe because you were told, then all other myths are equally true. I mentioned the Hindu epics, which are also strongly held to the extent that there is continuous bloodshed amongst Muslims and Hindus in South Asia.

I believe that all myths are true to whoever believes in them and they are all equally false or equally true. Why do I believe that? I prefer to see the evidence in front of me and come to my own conclusions. I do not give personal power away to subscribe to handed down myths. I can create my own.

And Ashura episodes qualify as myth, albeit a powerful one. That the myth is rooted in actual historical circumstances, I do not doubt.

Like I mentioned previously, you cannot have an argument with a true believer. Argument arise from questions and a true believer has no questions.

Al-Muiz,

That Imam is God incarnate, just like Jesus is God incarnate for Christians is the belief of Bohras. This arises from Ismaili philosophy and its roots in consciousness and the hierarchy of consciousness.

If I have understood this correctly, the only industructible, uncreated element in the Universe is Soul. This soul then gives rise to all other souls through a process of emanation. Since the original Soul is uncreated, it is associated with Allah. Others are lesser souls and the idea is for all souls to return to the uncreated soul. This is the interpretation of "inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raajioon"

In the hierarchy of souls, some are higher than others. And Imam is considered the highest and thus is Allah. This is all Batin stuff and your Amil may explain it to you if you are ready. So Jibreel conversing with Husain is the same as Jibreel conversing with Allah.

Aga Khanis, who share this philosphy, are explicit about this and consider Aga Khan, their Imam to be God.

Theatre is the apt word to describe this sort of thing. And those who believe in this theatre and swear by it are perhaps far too gone into the realm of fantasy to even begin to question the fundamentals of faith.

Mythology is an important part of faith - it adds colour, emotion and drama to the otherwise boring, fire-and-brimstone type of commandments. The more fantastic the mythology the greater the belief in its authenticity. That's the conditioning of human unreason. It feeds on itself.

But it is rather silly of believers to say that if you don't "believe" then it shouldn't matter to you. But that is not the point. They fail to understand that

1) the need to believe in the creator, the ultimate one, god, allah etc. is one thing
2) and the rush to believe lock-stock-and-barrel in a religion supposedly spawned by that creator is quite another.

The first is a valid quest that we all undertake to make sense of the universe and our place in it. The second (i.e. religion) is a social/historical construct. It literally requires a "leap of faith" to move from the first to the second. Religions are fairly recent in terms of human evolution. They are not a force of nature in the same sense as gravity is. One man's islam is no truer than another man's christianity. All religions are rooted in primal fear and supported by fiction such as talking to angels, parting of the sea, rising from the dead etc. If your belief system leads you to accept these as truths then 1) what stops you from believing in any other fiction (say flying pigs), and 2) it makes nonsense of thousands of years of development of human thought.

For the believer to say that " it is the mystery we call FAITH. Either you believe it happened, or you don't!" is utter and absolute nonsense. We are human beings with evolved consciousness and rationality. We are not Neanderthals. It is our duty to think rationally and, as porus says, demand evidence before accepting anything as truth. Of course, not everything is understood nor everything can be explained - and that is the real mystery. To reduce that mystery to crude fairytales is to reduce the sublime to the ridiculous.

To conclude, believe in the divine if you have to - but for god's sake don't stretch that belief into things that fly in the face of reason and hundereds of thousands of years of human progress .

you cannot have an argument with a true believer. Argument arise from questions and a true believer has no questions.

wonderful lines those are!!

If I have understood this correctly, the only industructible, uncreated element in the Universe is Soul. This soul then gives rise to all other souls through a process of emanation. Since the original Soul is uncreated, it is associated with Allah. Others are lesser souls and the idea is for all souls to return to the uncreated soul. This is the interpretation of "inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raajioon"

The hindu Upanishads have dwelt into this subject deeply and a debate over the oneness of the universal soul has given rise to two schools of thougt - dvaitwad (dualism) and advaitwad (non dualism). The advaitists believe that all souls are "equal" parts of the supreme soul ie. God and so every individual soul is a replica of God. If someone says "I am God", he is not wrong. I heard the story of "mansoor", a sufi, who proclaimed "AN LAHAQ" which means " I AM GOD". He was stoned to death for heresy.

Dvaitists on the other hand believe that though all souls are a part of the supreme soul, they are inferior to it (lesser souls) and their eternal purpose is to serve the supreme soul. All the other souls though merge finally with the supreme soul, they hold their seperate identity even then can cannot be equated with the supreme.

Of course, not everything is understood nor everything can be explained - and that is the real mystery. To reduce that mystery to crude fairytales is to reduce the sublime to the ridiculous.

Brilliantly and succintly stated, Humsafar.

Gift of human rationality and eternal mystery of existence is what drives the human quest for knowledge.

Bohra priesthood has indeed reduced the mystery to pet offerings of balmy fairy stories to better control their followers so that they are not even capable of thinking along the lines of their illustrious predecesors in faith.

I had an encounter with an Amil similar to the one Kalim described in one of his posts. When I enquired about the Pythagorean origin of the Bohra/Muslim numerology, he countered, "Tamne maalum nathi. Pythagoras, jene Arabi-ma Fisagorus kehwama aave chhe, te imaan na logo masi chhe. To emnu ilm imaan nu ilm chhe." Having been flabbergasted with this fable, I could not continue the discussion. It shows how far the priesthood has regressed from the heyday of Dar-ul -Hikma. Both Hamid Kirmani and Imam Hakim bi-Amrillah will be turning in their graves.

It is perhaps time for Bohra Jamia to be renamed Bohra Jahiliyya.

"For the believer to say that " it is the mystery we call FAITH. Either you believe it happened, or you don't!" is utter and absolute nonsense. We are human beings with evolved consciousness and rationality. We are not Neanderthals. It is our duty to think rationally and, as porus says, demand evidence before accepting anything as truth. Of course, not everything is understood nor everything can be explained - and that is the real mystery. To reduce that mystery to crude fairytales is to reduce the sublime to the ridiculous."

Humsafar, I really don't see what I said contradicts what you said. How can you demand evidence of God's existence? Basically that's your arguement. If you believe in ANY monotheistic religion, then ALL religions are based on the FUNDAMENTAL POINT....GOD created EVERYTHING. Hence, Man's ability to search for God is warranted. Yes, ANY religion is more a social event than merely stating that God exists. Infact, YOUR VERY THOUGHT PROCESS IS INFLUENCED BY THE EXISTENCE OF THESE RELIGIONS! You did not wake up one day, and come up with your theological arguements, without actually knowing those very arguements made in any religious system...I know you are intelligent, but dude, you ain't that smart!

No one is saying "do not question." The issue at hand is simply this: How can you justify to YOURSELF...REPEAT TO YOURSELF the validity of religion, God, sin etc. Your basis of arguement is, well, dumb. I simply cannot argue with a Hindu about the virtues of God, when they do not believe in the diety. They believe they are right and we believe we are right. It's not a dumb arguement to say "La Kum din akum, waleyadin." One has to stake a claim on the arguement to be effective.

BTW: Inna Lillahi ....literally means From God we come and to God we shall all return. How that means there are lesser souls etc, is beyond me. And yes I do go to sabaks. The question is not that one soul is worth more than another, the issue is the philosophical arguement that a soul has virtue, based on the being that possessed those virtues. By that logic, Saddams soul has no virtues, because the thug is just that-a thug.
Now, IF you believe in the concept of God and everlasting life, then the soul has to go somewhere. Yes, the events of Kerbela are steeped in mystique...but you are so poisonously opposed (much like the Talibans were poisoned in their logic) to anything Bohras believe as important-that your capacity to reason is clouded by your greed and innate desire to be right.

Even if God Almighty came to earth and told you about the events, you would not believe it, since you have already decided it is all myth, and does not warrant your actually looking at the facts.

If you give up your insane desire to prove yourself as a scholar of religion (which you aren't) and actually open yourself to the varied aspects of religion you will be much more wiser.

And as to religion, I believe the Almighty Lord says in the Holy Quran: "You have your beliefs, and we have ours"....

Humsafar, Porus:

1) the need to believe in the creator, the ultimate one, god, allah etc. is one thing
2) and the rush to believe lock-stock-and-barrel in a religion supposedly spawned by that creator is quite another.

Here's my question to you.
1. If believing in God is reasonable, why is it unreasonable to believe in His commands for religion? Are you arguing that God is real but religions are a figment of Man's imagination?

2. If believing in God is kosher, how can you prove to me that God actually exists? What are your proof that God exists?

3. If God's existence is O.K. then why is is so darned difficult to believe in Angels, Prophets, Imams etc.? The BIGGEST leap of faith is the belief that there IS A GOD!

4. Imams are NOT God, and the teachings NEVER reflect that. IF Imams were God, why would they pray salaat? Don't you guys read about the Imam's supplication to...hello? God! Again, you misconcieved interpretation to satisfy your warped view of Shiism

5. The main crux of the matter...the events in Kerbala. What I've stated are the facts according to several Shia and Suni texts ( maana, the death of the Imam). Whether Jibaeel came to see him is real is as dumb a question as asking a muslim whether Jibraeel revealed the Koran to Rasoolallah is real. Were they real? You have to make that judgement call? Have you seen Isa Nabi crucified? Does that mean he wasn't crucified? You have never seen him, so did he really exist? Once you come down from your cloud nine that the world revolves around your thought process, you will be able to get a glimpse of what you've been missing. It really dosn't have to do with questionning and about human progression from the Neanderthals. It really has to do with your innate desire to believe things that are totally abstract...like God, since you have not seen any proof that God actually exists. And even if there is proof, what's to say you will believe the proof is sufficient?

Enuf said.

My answer to Al-Muizz,

1. It is not reasonable to believe in God as understood by monotheistic religions. There is no evidence, only reported words of some people. So when you say you believe in God, you are really saying that you believe in what someone said about God. Until you experience God yourself, it is simply a set of words in your mind. This is the same if you have never been to Madagascar. Until you experience being in Madagascar, all you have is a set of words about it. It has no physical existence for you except as an idea in your mind.

2. There is no proof of existence of God. It is an idea in your mind. The idea may have a physical existence as a chemical coding in your brain cells.

3. Just as it is unreasonable to believe in God’s actual physical existence, it is also unreasonable to believe that he sends messengers, books, imams or creates angels

4. Imam is not God, a mythical creation. There is no suggestion that Imam did not pray to God as he understood the term. He accepted what his Grandfather said about God. But Ismailism was most certainly not the view of Islam as practiced by Imam Husain. Imam’s position was re-interpreted by later developments amongst Ismailies. Therefore the Bohra interpretation of what Imam is significantly different from Imam Husain’s interpretation of what an Imam is.

5. Events of Kerbela, especially the conversation between Jibreel and Imam Husain, are clouded in myth.

So how does one explain the Quran, the Bible, and other world scriptures? And how does one explain existence? Now that is a mystery. There is absolutely no evidence for the first cause or reversion to first cause as a mathematical recursion.

The best that can be done is that we speculate ourselves or choose one among many speculative philosophies about the origin of consciousness and universe. And there are many. Ismailism is just one of them. It is perennial philosophy wrapped in Islamic clothes.

Speculation is not truth. But using one of these speculations as a working hypothesis may encourage you take responsibility for your own views instead of accepting pre-packaged views of someone else.

p.s. Literal interpretation of “Inna lllahi” is indeed what you say it is. But if you investigate recursion of soul in Ismailism, you will find a different interpretation.

Al-Muizz,

I agree with you in that it is futile to discuss events which believers have faith in, as neither side can prove that it did or did not happen. However, these events must follow reason and logic. The specific incident that Porus articulated regarding Jibreel’s offer of help in contradiction to Allah’s command does not stand the test of reason and it is contradictory to your belief system. The fact that it was a test is an extrapolation and justification of your belief and not documented.

Another contradiction in your post is when you say that you are not alluding to Husain being like God when your previous post states “A mortal would have begged for the Lord”, inferring that Husain was not a mortal, but chose to be one.

O.K. By saying a "mortal" was probably a poor choice of words.

Porus, now we understand your position on the matter. Madagascar is a PHYSICAL thing...it exists because you see it, you know of it, you know people who are there.

Belief in God cannot be rationalized by what we as humans percieve as being "real", as being "present". It is a state of mind. Like the concept of Sin. If you did not believe that a crime is considered a sin, then it isn't to you, but it is to someone else who is interpreting it as such.

The belief in God really defies logic as you put it. But there simply is nothing you can do to make the rest of the world in believing that God does not exist. You're right. there is a fear of the unknown, but the biggest fear man has is of his own mortality. Believing in God gives us all immortality.

porus,

1. It is not reasonable to believe in God as understood by monotheistic religions. There is no evidence, only reported words of some people. So when you say you believe in God, you are really saying that you believe in what someone said about God. Until you experience God yourself, it is simply a set of words in your mind. This is the same if you have never been to Madagascar. Until you experience being in Madagascar, all you have is a set of words about it. It has no physical existence for you except as an idea in your mind.

First - I do not understand what you mean by "experience God" Would being approached by an angel of God constitute experiencing God? Would visiting the heavens and actually seeing the evidence of the existence of God constitute experiencing God? Wouldn't believing in a person as such as this be enough to believe in God?

According to me, it is absolutely reasonable to believe in the words of someone that can be trusted completely based upon the evidence he produces. Everyone does not need to experience God by themselves, else we would have 6 billion religions each with a different set of beliefs. Also since it is not reasonable to have everyone experience God, but at the same time there is no point in having a God who waits till you experience him to believe in him, what does he do? He sends messengers to deliver his message so that you can believe in him and get into heaven.

2. There is no proof of existence of God. It is an idea in your mind. The idea may have a physical existence as a chemical coding in your brain cells.

Now that is an extraordinary statement. There is a lot of proof of the existence of God. It may not be sufficient for you to believe though. What is definitely not there is the proof of non-existence of God.

3. Just as it is unreasonable to believe in God’s actual physical existence, it is also unreasonable to believe that he sends messengers, books, imams or creates angels

You can see my above replies. As far as doubts 4 and 5 are concerned, well I am not so sure myself.

Anajmi,

If you were visited by an angel, that would be your experience of angel. If you told me about it, I would say that you reported experiencing an angel. It would not be reasonable for me to say therefore that this is a proof of existence of angels.

By proof, I mean evidence which can be physically experienced by a large number of people. It can be a direct experience of a number of people as witnessing a sunrise or an operational procedure which allows anyone to experience an event. All scientific "truths" rely on such procedures being available in the public domain. You can verify your truth by following the procedure.

To be sure, many people say they have experienced God and some of them come up with procedures too. But these have not been universally verified.

For you to say that God's existence is proven because someone you respect says so does not constitute proof. It is just your statement of your belief in that someone.

Quran states that in all things that you experience is the evidence of existence of God. I appreciate and enjoy this wonderful universe but I cannot make a connection with beauty and existence of God anymore than seeing all evil an debauchery will lead me to deny God's existence. It is not reasonable to make that connection.

If you say that "truth" is statements by someone people trust and respect, then there is no reason for you to choose Islam over any other religion. They are all sourced by highly respected and trusted people.

Lots of people get emotional high when they are in Makka or see Aqa Mowla. They are certain they experience God. I have done both and yet I did not experience God, which proves truth of God is in person's mind not in actuality.

Ah, and what about Dubya? So many morons trust and respect him. They believe his truth about Saddam's WMDs. Now, if they had insisted on proof, oh that is another story...

porus,

If you were visited by an angel, that would be your experience of angel. If you told me about it, I would say that you reported experiencing an angel. It would not be reasonable for me to say therefore that this is a proof of existence of angels.

If I were visited by an angel, then at least it is sufficient for me to say that this is a proof of existence of angels right? The angel says go and tell the others, if they believe, they go to heaven, if they don't they go to hell. I come and tell you, you may choose to believe, you may choose not to believe. That is entirely upto you. In the quran God says that he chooses the ones that believe in him, so if I believe in him, then maybe I have experienced him already. If you do not then maybe someday you will or may be you won't.

By proof, I mean evidence which can be physically experienced by a large number of people. It can be a direct experience of a number of people as witnessing a sunrise or an operational procedure which allows anyone to experience an event. All scientific "truths" rely on such procedures being available in the public domain. You can verify your truth by following the procedure.

There is such evidence in existence which was experienced by a large number of people. The splitting of the moon or the splitting of the red sea. But again, since you did not see it yourself, you may choose not to believe. I choose to believe. Again you have to realize it is an accepted belief that proof of God has to defy normally accepted "procedure".

To be sure, many people say they have experienced God and some of them come up with procedures too. But these have not been universally verified.

I am actually glad they haven't been.

For you to say that God's existence is proven because someone you respect says so does not constitute proof. It is just your statement of your belief in that someone.

Again, it does not constitute proof to you, you have to remember that every prophet that claimed to be a messenger has produced miracles. You choose not to believe in them, I choose to.

Quran states that in all things that you experience is the evidence of existence of God. I appreciate and enjoy this wonderful universe but I cannot make a connection with beauty and existence of God anymore than seeing all evil an debauchery will lead me to deny God's existence. It is not reasonable to make that connection.

Well, since I have made the connection I know that evil and debauchery does not lead me to deny the existence of God but leads me to believe in the existence of the devil.

If you say that "truth" is statements by someone people trust and respect, then there is no reason for you to choose Islam over any other religion. They are all sourced by highly respected and trusted people.

Well, maybe I choose to believe prophet Mohammed (saw) more than I choose to believe in St. Peter or Valmiki, and may be that is so because I studied all the major religions of the world and may be I found something wrong with all of them except one. After all about 75% of the world found something wrong with Islam too right?

Lots of people get emotional high when they are in Makka or see Aqa Mowla. They are certain they experience God. I have done both and yet I did not experience God, which proves truth of God is in person's mind not in actuality.

As I said above, may be someday you will, may be you won't. As I mentioned about the ayah in the quran, you will believe if you are chosen to believe.

Ah, and what about Dubya? So many morons trust and respect him. They believe his truth about Saddam's WMDs. Now, if they had insisted on proof, oh that is another story...

Well, that is the difference between a prophet chosen by God and a moron chosen by other morons. 98.5% of the world never believed him in the first place. The rest are the morons that voted for him.

We have now established that 98.5% of the people did not believe in Bush, and 75% of the people do not believe in Islam.

If I were a betting man, I would not wager with the 1.5% that believe in Bush, or the 25% that believe in Islam.

Average Bohra,

You bring up a good point. There is a sahih hadith about this scenario. The prophet(saw) was asked by his companions as to how many people will go to heaven and how many to hell and the prophet replied that out of every 1000, 999 will go to hell.

So you see, I wouldn't blame you for betting the way you said you would.

Well, a digression from the topic, but about Bush and those who believe him. It is not that complicated, really. Karl Rowe orchestrated a brilliant campaign....stealing from Star Wars...either you are with us, or you are with the enemy.....

And the rest of America we too dumb to realize the Unpatriotic Act just took their freedoms!