3 "Laanatti"

[jamanpasand]

ANAJI
my wife would've divorced me about 25 times in the last 4 years!!

O dear ! I told you not to visit this board so much. She needs more time with you. Prevention is better than cure.

[Muslim]

Modifying the adhan, slaughtering Muslims for not paying zakat, changing the limit on dowry, forbidding tayyamum, sentencing a woman to death for adultery who was not in a good mental state, etc etc...

This is what Ali had to say about Abu Bakr and Umar (continuation of sermon 3):

I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one (Abu Bakr) went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

(Then he quoted al-A`sha's verse):

My days are now passed on the camel's back (in difficulty) while there were days (of ease) when I enjoyed the company of Jabir's brother Hayyan.[3]

It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one (Umar) after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one (Umar) put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation. </B>
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[anajmi]

Muslim,

I'm afraid you will have to do better than that. The modification of Adhan does not have Abu Bakr or Uthman or Umar's name, like the modification that has Hazrat Ali's name.

[anajmi]

And did Hazrat Ali overturn all the judgments made by the previous khalifas that he thought were wrong?

[Hyderabadi]

"Part of the indian law states that in civil cases, each religion can follow it's own law. That is the reason why RSS wants a Uniform Civil Law in India. Till then, shariah is what you have to follow "

--- The problem here is which shariah ?
It has to be a correct shariah and not the one's that was used in shah banoo case, imrana rape case, one night stand arab marriages cases, Triple talaq, phone/paper/sms/e-mail talaq cases or any other similar cases.

All this is just anti islam and also brings a bad name to islam.

[Muslim]

Anajmi: Above I posted Ali's opinion (not mine) that the three were incompetent and that he was was most superior in knowledge. The details of this is documented in history and tradition. Have YOU done your research and as a result disagree with that?

[anajmi]

Muslim,

Here is my research - Michael H. Hart in his book "The 100" places Hazrat Umar at number 52 where he lists the 100 most influential men in the history of mankind. He is ranked higher than Julius Caesar or Charlemagne.

Hazrat Umar was also the father-in-law of the prophet. Hazrat Abu Bakr was the companion who was in the cave with the prophet during the Hijrat.

A lot of advise given by Hazrat Umar to the prophet was accepted by Allah. Even the prophet claimed that if the doors of prophethood hadn't been closed after me, Hazrat Umar would've been the next prophet.

Other than Hazrat Ali, there isn't a single sahaba who has said such things against Hazrat Umar. From your quotations of the Nahjul-Balagha Hazrat Ali comes out to be crying baby who toy was stolen from him. Islam was not Hazrat Ali's inheritance as shias have made it out to be nor was Hazrat Ali the kind you portray him out to be. He was the true Lion of Allah. I am not sure if you can imagine what that can be like.

[anajmi]

Hyderabadi,

What gives Islam a bad name is women who go to the courts to get divorced so that they can marry other men without their husbands concent. If the woman had approached the priest, Islam wouldn't be getting a bad name!!

[Muslim First]

Br. MH

Please start your reading starting this;

Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources
by the late Dr. Martin Lings

This is arguably one of the very best and most approachable biographies written on the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). This book reads more like a novel; it’s fast moving and always interesting. At the same time, Dr. Lings attempted to make an accurate telling based on the earliest sources. One may also be interested to know that it was during the research for this book that Dr. Lings accepted Islam.

.

[Muslim]

anajmi,

If that's the sum of all the research you have done on this topic then its quite pathetic.

You will have to do better than that.

Nahjul Balagha is accepted by the Shia and some Sunnis as authentic. It does not potray Ali the way you described, that would be obvious to anyone who has read the book sufficiently. I'm assuming you have not.

A lot of advise given by Hazrat Umar to the prophet was accepted by Allah.

You got your priorities wrong. The Prophet was guided by Allah, not Umar.

Many of Umar's 'brilliant' qualities are mentioned in fabricated Sunni hadith. You are entitled to believe them, but I reject them just as you reject Nahjul Balagha.

A more balanced and indepth study of early Islamic history shows a different Umar, Abu Bakr and Uthman: incompetent, power-hungry and nepotist.

[Hyderabadi]

"What gives Islam a bad name is women who go to the courts to get divorced so that they can marry other men without their husbands concent. If the woman had approached the priest, Islam wouldn't be getting a bad name!! ".

--- Woman know very well where to approach to get justice.They know the priests very well from the many cases that happened in india :Ex:Shah Banoo (Poor lady was given triple talaq and on top of it could not even get maintanance, Imrana (who was asked to marry her father- in -law, who raped her)and the plight of so many girls here in hyderabad who become prey for rich Arabs, for their one night stands.

so, it is not that the shariat is at fault but its interpretations, mainly of the sunnis is the problem.

[Hyderabadi]

:Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources
by the late Dr. Martin Lings"

--- An outsider will always find lots of logic in his research and accepts islam.

If a muslim who does research will always accepts the path of Ahlaibait, as can be seen from the many sunni scholars who after research accepts the real islam.

Out of so many works, i would recommend the book Titled "Then I was Guided", by Dr Samawi Al Tejani.
A lot of points that we are presently discussing on this thread are discussed in detail in the book.

[Muslim]

Here is my research - Michael H. Hart in his book "The 100" places Hazrat Umar at number 52 where he lists the 100 most influential men in the history of mankind. He is ranked higher than Julius Caesar or Charlemagne.

Umar was an excellent and brutal military leader. However he was no match for Hitler who is ranked higher at 39.

[anajmi]

Muslim,

Look at what happened to Germany after Hitler and look at what happened to Islam after Hazrat Umar!!

[anajmi]

99% of the people today understand what kind of a person Hitler was and 99% of the muslims today understand what kind of a person Hazrat Umar was. There will always be that crazy 1% who won't get it!!

[Hyderabadi]

"99% of the people today understand what kind of a person Hitler was and 99% of the muslims today understand what kind of a person Hazrat Umar was. There will always be that crazy 1% who won't get it!! "

--- An average study in statistics will tell you what percentage of muslims know how Umar was.
Shias form more than 20% of the muslim population and they with so many sunnis fully knows that Umar was an usurper.
Had the shias not been supressed throughout history (Past & Present)the percentage would have been still different.

Also just tell me as to why the very many Sunni Scholars (99%) who does research always accept the path of Hazrat Ali and blame Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Muawiya for all the problems of the disunity among muslims.

Had Umar and his likes accepted the Prophet's(AS) words and given Ali(AS) his rights, things would have been different for muslims.
Mulsims would not have been as they are now -"A threat to the world peace".
Islam would have not have captured the world by sword but by peace and tolerance.

Muslims would not have been one-fifth of world's population but majority.

[Hyderabadi]

"Look at what happened to Germany after Hitler and look at what happened to Islam after Hazrat Umar!! "

--- Germany is back in the league of developed and powerful nations after Hitler is gone, whereas Islam was doomed into permanant disunity, chaos and intolerance after Umar.

[kabeer19922001]

Dear Muslim

You have your own views of the history of Islam. Tell me what diffrence would it make if the history was different i.e Had Harat Ali been the first Caliph or the first Imam. Would there be any differnce in prayers,fasting, Haj, zakat etc. How would the daily life of a Muslim be effected. Apart from the daily matam which is done by the Bohri's I cannot see much changes.

You have mentioned the number of changes made by the first three Caliphs. One thing I have never understood is why did Hazrat Ali allow the continuation and did not immediately put a ban on such items.

Regards

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Muslim and Hyderabadi
AS
Beside br. Kabeer's question let me say following;

I want to follow correct version of Islam. I was born sunny but I want to make sure I follow what Allah's Rasool was asked to do to be Muslim. Before I start following Ahle-Bait, I have two questions that needs to be answered.

Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?

Please give me the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

Hope to get answer soon.

Wasalaam.
.

[Muslim]

Kabeer,

Are you worried only about how rituals (prayers, fasting, haj, zakat and matam) would be different?

What about faith, justice and righteousness?

MF,

Is your version of Islam based on only on the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries?... because most of your posts on this message board show the opposite.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Muslim
AS
Please post all the Supporting evidece of Imaamat. Including ahadit.

Wasallam
.

[Kaka Akela]

Br. Muslim First: salam alaikum

Imam has been reffered in quran-e-majid several places, off-hand I remember only one in Surah 36:12 which is surah Yaseen. "Kulla shayin ahsaynaho fi Imamin mubeen". In Sunni translations this word "Imam" has been converted to "elaborate book", I don't know why?????
In answer to your second question, how does the current Imam guides us today? the answer is simple, he guides us by remote control.Perfect way to illustrate this is this way. There are many doctors sitting in a room and only the doctor who gets beeped, his beeper beeps and not all of them beep. similarly there are many people in this world but imam beeps only his appointed dai and dai being on the same frequency as imam receives
instructions(a thought process)as to what needs to be done.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Kaka Akela
AS
Here is full Ayah 36:12
Transliteration
Inna nahnu nuhyee almawta wanaktubu ma qaddamoo waatharahum wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeenin

Translation by Shakir, a shia

Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.
.
Source: http://yaqb.org/

Try again

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.
Br. Muslim
AS
Please post all the Supporting evidece of Imaamat. Including ahadit.

Wasallam
.

You can find this information easily on the Internet e.g. the link below. There is no point me repeating it all.

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/

[anajmi]

Hyderabadi,

Just to give you an idea, I am also a Shia. Does that increase the Sunni percentage or decrease the Shia percentage?

As far as germany is concerned, you won't find anybody who gives credit to Hitler for what it is today.

Forget about 1400 years of history, you guys aren't even aware of the last 70 years of history!!

[anajmi]

One thing you have to remember is that Hazrat Ali had no right to anything, as Shias keep claiming!! Islam was not a family property, it isn't even the property of the Muslim Ummah. It is a gift from Allah.

Those who claim is was the right of Hazrat Ali are either idiots, or plain fitnatis!!

[anajmi]

In fact I consider every Sunni to be a Shia (not vice versa) because they respect every sahaba of the prophet just as much. They have to enimity towards Hazrat Fatima or Imam Hassan or Imam Hussein.

These were the people who gave up everything they had to support the prophet during his most difficult times. They didn't do it because they thought they will become Khalifa some day! That is crap propagated by the Shias.

According to the prophet his sahaba were the best of Muslims, excluding the hypocrites whom he pointed out during his lifetime. Why he missed Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, I have no idea!! Maybe because they weren't!!

Because the Sunnis have no enimity towards any sahaba or family member of the prophet, I consider them to be better Muslims than the Shias.

[anajmi]

Some corrections - "They have no enimity towards Hazrat Fatima or Imam Hassan or Imam Hussein."

[Shahu]

I agree with Anajmi. Islamic history is penned down after 300 - 350 years by so called persian Imams. Foremost name is At-Tabari. So called stories of enmity amongst sahaba's are inventions of these imams. Lots of hadith and sharia was introduced during the period of Abbasids.

Please read books on following site, specially Criminals of Islam and Karbala: Facts or Fiction.

Another book titled " True history of Islam and False Belief" is just published by the same author that is not available online yet, but in print.

[Shahu]

Sorry!

Here is the link:

http://ourbeacon.com/7101.html