Dawoodi Bohra Forum

muslim first,
1st of ramadhan for isna was the same as for bohras, sept 23rd. eid will be on monday oct 23rd (a full 30 days). it can't be on oct 24th.

and your example just proved the problem...this sunnah creates divisions in the ummah..and so this sunnah is not correct. this is the stance of isna. in my city there will be three eids at the three different masjids, one on monday, tuesday and wednesday!!! does this make sense.

regarding assigning the leading prayer...my point was in was in place during the time of maulana ali...when did it change to anyone who is balagh?

regarding the post on the "taxes"
of these zakat al'fitr, zakat al'mal and khums are required. actually the arabic verse in the quran does mean "war booty" for khums...this is a very poor translation. there are many hadiths by imam jafar sadiq imploring his followers to pay khums.
the remainder are optional. you are not at all looked down if you do not pay these. it is recommended to give a small amount for nazar maqam and silat imam during the month of ramadhan are a blessing.

dear muslim first
please listen to dr. muzzamil siddique explanation.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.sw ... 9240&hl=en

spot: I said that daim ul islam, the use of the zakat is described as I said, to help the needy and poor of the society. Of course daimul islam regards zakat as a pillar of islam, and i do believe that.

My contention was, that it is neither used for the very purpose it is collected for, neither their is an obvious use, which we can see. All we see is, the payment goes to some account, and then disappears. Yes we can see, the royal family travelling in first class and to exotic places, attendig safaris in kenya and africa.

I do not know, why do you want to defend the collection by jamat. I shall appreciate, if you can enlighten us, what happens to the funds collected, where are they spent. Refute it, if I was wrong about the forms, did your form had any amount mentioned against zakat column. Mine was not. The form that I got had just total at the bottom.

Zakat, khums etc is a portion of what we have. But wajebat does not care, if you have or do not have. I sent some money to my relatives in Pakistan, what they told me, when i called them, if they got it or not, was more than enough to upset me. they said, thankyou, what we did first thing, was to go to jamat office and paid the wajebat. I sent them, so that they and their children could enjoy eid, not to fill the coffers of the ones, who has so much.

dear accountability,
i am not here justifing action or not. it is between allah and yourself. i just don't a misrepresentation of concepts to occur.

diam al'islam doesn't not refer to zakat or khums being used for giving to the poor or the needy...although the imam may choose this. this is the contention. zakat is not charity and cannot be used in such a way. every verse in the quran where it refers to giving money to the needy and poor..the word sadaqah is used. sadaqah is not zakat. sadaqah can be even as you described and what ever amount you wish.

i support the collection..because it is required from me to be given to the imam by islam. it is no different than you asking why are you letting the jamat have congregation prayers!

and again the question comes...what happens to the money. it was your obligation to pay the amount due...not your obligation to determine how it is used...this is for the imam only. would you have gone to imam moiz and asked for a hisab of what he did with the zakat collected?

the form used have all the seven items that br. muslim first listed..starting with zakat al'mal. and before you can even pay the zakat, your zakat al'fitr must be paid. i am not sure what form you used..but the one i refered to is the offical one.

you know during the time of the fatimi imams, the individual dais of each area took the zakat and khums from the muminin to the imam personally each year.

in my reply to br. muslim first
i wrote "actually the arabic verse in the quran does mean "war booty" for khums...this is a very poor translation"

what i meant to write was "actually the arabic verse in the quran does NOT mean "war booty" for khums...this is a very poor translation"

Brother spot: What you are saying is, that jamat administration can collect wajebat, but they are at liberty to do whatever with it. Now that the imam is not hazir, so dai collects on his behalf.
According to you, there aren't any specific use for zakat, it may be used to safari in africa or flying first class to north america.

do you approve of these usage. If you say that, it is not your concern, then why would allah make something wajib without any specific purpose.

I have tried to verse with islamic history, i did not find any refrence to what you say, that zakat has no purpose, but to be paid to imam. Imam moiz was also the governer of egypt, in that case, his collection of zakat was according to quranic ordains. His amils were governers of that area, so they were collecting from public, and they have to submit it to the government. like any income tax collector would do.

But jamat's case is neither, it is not a governing authority nor its amils are governers.

dear accountability,
there is a problem with your statement "According to you, there aren't any specific use for zakat, it may be used to safari in africa or flying first class to north america."

firstly, there are specific references to how zakat is to be spent..but this is the decision of the imam not the mumin. this is specifically in diam al'islam. also is the hadith eluding to the concept of why does a person give zakat to the imam if they don't trust the imam...what faith is the person or his religion.

secondly, do you know that the dai uses zakat for his trips or other things? what makes you assume this? do you think it would be hard to fathom mumineen in dar rus salam inviting the dai there, completely for free?

your wrote "If you say that, it is not your concern, then why would allah make something wajib without any specific purpose."

the specific purpose is for the imam to properly dispurse the funds to all people...not just as people feel. if this were the case..how many would even give zakat if it weren't required?

"Imam moiz was also the governer of egypt, in that case, his collection of zakat was according to quranic ordains. His amils were governers of that area, so they were collecting from public, and they have to submit it to the government. like any income tax collector would do."

--this is a incorrect idea to what zakat is...it is not a tax..though in modern times it is the closest term most can understand. by paying zakat..you are not funding the operations of the imamate. the imamate is not a government nor is the imam a governor or president. the imamate and imam is the religious-political institution appoint by God alone (not elected). imam moiz in your example was the imam-kaliph of northern africa, the majority of the arabia and persia. his dais were in each of this areas. the amil is the religious representative and his is the leader/president of the jamat.

.
Br. Spot wrote

diam al'islam doesn't not refer to zakat or khums being used for giving to the poor or the needy...although the imam may choose this. this is the contention. zakat is not charity and cannot be used in such a way.

Br. Please look up Qura'an Ayah which describes who are eligible to receive Zakat. It is clear like daylite. If Diam al Islam does not subscribe to this Ayah then you shoud descard it as innovated document. You do reserch, If you cannot find it then I will be glad to help you.

Br. AC.

One of use of Zakat is management fee for collector/distributer. So Kothar as a collector/distributor can keep a percentage of it.

Wasalaam
.

muslim first,first of all u said is all lie about boston,read this I met a Mumin Bohra couple there and asked them why tey were there and not at Markaz enjoying 2 mithas and 2 Kharas?
Their response was they were there to meet non Bohra friends and to enjoy evening and food. Just stop carping. Its Allah's mosque and should be open to all Muslims.even u met bohra he might be tahir or ombharathi

.pro_pig
do you mean to tell me that I did not meet a Bohra couple? and I made up a story.

You telling that I am a lier?

Would somebody who prays and fasts would ever do that?

Shame on you brother even thinking about it.

Wasalaam, Ramadan Karim and Eid Mubarak.

BTW I will be in Wayland Mosque for Saturday Iftar. You are welcome and make sure you wear Bohra Topi so I can shake your hand.

Wasalaam Again
.

MF
ASA
Donot take offense to Piggy's comment. This is typical Kothari, they are not there and they make up stories like one of the animal kingdom member knew Sk Murtaza Dahodwala very well but didnot know that he is the same guy who contributed towards Boston Markaz and Saifee Hospital.
BTW PIGGY BRAIN, I DO NOT LIVE IN BOSTON, I did graduate from Boston in early 80's and I used to go to Quincy Mosque when there were NO BOHRAS.
so MF didnot meet me and I am sure Tahir will tell whether he was there to prove you idiots as liars

br. muslim first,
the ayat is there and is clear...but allah is speaking to muhammad as the imam of the ummah..not the muslims at large. diam al'islam quotes this ayat in a hadith and describes this as a specific command by God for the imam...not any muslim. distribution is for the imam...it is the role of the muslim to pays his/her wajibaat. and there a many specific ways the money can be distributed...but it not our right nor responsibility for influencing in what it is spent...this is for the imam alone.

Originally posted by tahir:
bro pro pig,

May I ask whom are you speaking for when you use the term "we"..?

Anyway, let me try to speak your language:

"we" drop more pennies in it than "you" do....so in effect "we" are paying for "your" sorry existence..."you" have to come to "our" board to learn what the mullah doesn't teach you in waaz and the level of discussion at "your" sites is like this:

Who is engineer

My appeal to mr tahir is that if he is so much dis-satisfied with the kothar system, then being a member of progressive why does he fund the kotharis?Either you should agree withthe kotahr or you should part way from kothar. by giving more pennies he is making them all the more stronger.

Originally posted by udaipurresident:
Either you should agree withthe kotahr or you should part way from kothar.

If all those who don't agree with kothar happen to part away, there wouldn't be enough number of bohras left to fill a small jamatkhana.

I must ask you which country do you live? Do you always agree with the government? If you don't, what do you do, flee the country or work towards improving the system? And while you are at it, do you stop paying taxes?

Finally, what do you mean by 'member' of 'progressives'? I am just a human born among bohras.

Ohk, one more thing. Suppose all those who don't agree with kothar part away, will kothar split all its assets with the departers? I mean people have being paying throughout their lives and every member of the community has a share in every masjid, every jamatkhana/musafirkhana and all the property controlled by sayyedna including his residence, his car, his clothes and the food he eats. I have paid for it throughout. So when I leave I need my share in the property I build brick by brick. And if kothar agrees with this, believe me Sayedna will not be left even with a loin-cloth to cover his private parts.

So far the mechanically and waaz conditioned responses to such questions have been " It is Sayedna's money and he has the right to use it whatever way he wants". And then I ask, can you justify the concept of dai through the religion you follow. And is yes, please state his supposed status in the commuity and the amount of control he can exercise on community's assets. (through ismaili/fatemid islam)

tahir,
your request is somewhat hypocritical. although the information is readily available and has been discussed many times on this board alone, why do you ask for the status and "controlled" position of the dai? you're asking because you don't trust what he is doing..i assume. then why do you follow him?

the first tenent of belief for a bohra is belief in the imam and his dai...if you don't believe in this...the rest of the stuff is pretty insignificant..right?

although the information is readily available and has been discussed many times on this board alone

Can you post a link where someone has given an arguement (in dai's favour) which is anywhere near reasonable ?...plz do this favour. Consider me 'search challenged' and your job will be easy.

the first tenent of belief for a bohra is belief in the imam and his dai

Back this up with some written and authentic stuff from the religion bohras follow. Imam OK but I want to know the exact status of Dai. Either the last two Dais are wrong or all the 50 dais before Taher Saifuddin.

tahir,

the position of the dai is as the hujjat or representative of the imam in hiding. he has full rights from the mumin as the imam's representative as the imam would have. this does not make him imam in other aspects. this is written directly in the misaq ahd.

so then what are the rights of the imam on the mumin. read diamul islam...read al kafi, read bihar al anwar. all of these shia hadith books relate the rights of the imam on the mumin.

if you want the biggest tradition of what the rights of the imam are...remember the event of ghadir. the prophet muhammad told the some 70,000 muslims present that his has more right over them then their parents. he recalled the ayats of the quran which say following muhammad is obeying allah, disobeying muhammad is disobeying allah. then he said maulana ali has the same rights over you as i have. maulana ali was asasul imamate (the foundation of imamate)..and the rights he had were the same for every imam. now if the dai has the same rights of the imam during his ghaybat...why do you question his authority. this is the first pillar of islam...walayat. the walayat of allah, his messengers, his imams, and his representatives.

the following are books written by shiah regarding imamate and khums:
http://al-islam.org/imamate/
http://al-islam.org/beliefs/practices/khums.html