Dawoodi Bohra Forum

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Br. Africawala wrote:

NOW FOR THE HISTORY LESSON. Aga Khan's daughter married a Christian, people of the Book. He is a God fearing person and hence believes in God/. But now for the icing on the cake: Prophet's daughter, Zainab, was married to a kafir. What fiqh applies here? pLEASE ASK YOUR DAI.

In real Islam a believing Woman is not permitted to marry non Muslims (Not even people of book)

See the following regarding Zainab, Prophet's daughter.

(Before presenting argument one should check his facts. Now a days it is easy to do so. ther is wealth of info. on web. just serch it. I googled "Zainab daughter of Prophet" and got the following info.)

Zainab Bint Muhammad

A Muslim woman might have a husband who was still an atheist. Take, for instance, Zainab, the daughter of the Prophet himself (peace be upon him). She was married to her maternal cousin Abu Al-A's bin Al Rabee. She entered the fold of Islam though her husband held on to his original religion. In the battle of Badr, he fell prisoner of war. Zainab, however, offered a ransom for his release. He was, therefore, allowed to go free on the engagement that on his return he would let her free. Consequently, when he returned to Mecca, Zainab migrated to Madina. Her husband, Abu Al-A's, however, once again fell in the hands of Muslims as a prisoner of war. On this occasion Zainab provided him with asylum, and took him under her own protection. He finally returned to Mecca to settle his business and then embraced Islam.

Source:- http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Book ... pter_1.htm

Zainab radiallaho anha

She was the eldest daughter of the Prophet (sallaho alaihi wasallam) and was born in the fifth year of his first marriage when he was thirty. She embraced Islam and was married to her cousin Abu-As-bin-Rabi. Her husband also embraced Islam later and joined her in Medina. She had a son Ali, and a daughter (Amamah). Ali died during the life time of the Prophet (sallaho alaihi wasallam). This same Ali was the person who sat with the Prophet (sallaho alaihi wasallam) on the camel's back at the time if his triumphant entry into Mecca. Ammah, Zainab's daughter lived long after the death of the Prophet (sallaho alaihi wasallam). Ali (radhiallaho anho) marriad her after the death of Fatima (radhiallaho anha) his first wife. It is said that fatimah at time of her death had expressed a desire for this union. She had no issue from Ali (radhiallaho anho). After Ali she was again married to Mughirah-bin-Nauful from whom she probably got one son name Yahya. She died in 50 A.H.

Source:- http://forums.gawaher.com/index.php?sho ... entry74268

It appears that the Prophets daughter was married before Islam was revealed to him.

Wasalaam
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A number of years ago, the Pakistani Government (I think under the Zia Presidency), to appease the Mullas (Jamat-e-Islamiyah) were about to delare the Aga Khani Ismaili Community as a minority community like the Qadyanis and Bahais.

His Highness The Aga Khan got wind of this imminent Fatwa. He immediaely flew to Islamabad and publicly announced the building of the largest and most modern hospital of Asia, in Karachi, and avoided the fatwa by bribing the Pakistanis.

We are just wondering whether this same threat was made as well to the Bohris!. Aqa Moula had announced this donation at least a couple of years ago or so; but may be Kothar came through with the community's hard earned money (Baitul Maal) during the last visit of Aqa Moula to Pakistan, when pressure was exerted on the Kotharis. To make it look like an "up and up" donation, the Karachi University awarded the honorary Doctorate to Aqa Maoula.

We're beginning to argue over little points rather than on the main gest of the topic: why is a something given by the Dai considered wrong and receiving a doctorate from KU worthless?

Since Africwala went to the trouble of asking me questions and clarification I should respond:

1.) what I meant by "pull" is that the bohras are very organized both socially and politically in both religious and seculiar affair. Though small, bohras have a hugh influence in the communities even if a tiny minority group. And just as a note Adamji Peerbhoy was a great patron of both bohras and muslim and an ardent follower of Dai Tahir Saifuddin. His sons didn't like the Dai and his action and made a claim on the will of Adamji Peerbhoy who had left the mahal to the Dai.

2.) The Ismaili share the history and beliefs of the first 18 Imams the bohras regard. It is the after these that their later Imams changed their beliefs. They refer to these same sources both of the Imams and Dais...including the Dais of Yemen and India...both historical and religious doctrines. They, like bohras, do not just consider them references and antiqities. It would very cumbersome to review those difference on this board. I would ask you to learn alot more of the Fatimi beliefs and history...and then compare it to the current beliefs of the Ismaili..from their sources.

3.) The Dai release of materials is his own response. I cannot speak for him. I do know many of the published works are sold at the bohra universities. Then again, the works need to be understood and translated by qualified persons. Historians claim base on the Agha Khans words. Historians write books base on their understanding of the subject. Ivanow..though knowledge..was neither a practicing Ismaili...nor had a fluent understanding of the doctrines/beliefs of the Fatimi. This is half the problem.

Zakat means purification...sadaqa means charity. Zakat is not charity! And this is the problem with translations. Zakat purifies your soul by removing the temptations of the accumlated wealth. The Imam is the one the allows (wasi of) this purification by Allah. Zakat was given to the Prophet only and later to the Imams. Salat purifies the soul and mind in the same manner. Zakat ul'Fitr is to be paid by the end of Ramadhan. Zakat in general is rewarded a hundred times more in blessings in Ramadhan. What I stated above is via hadiths of Imam Jafar Sadiq from various sources like Bihar al'Anwar, Al'Kafi, Di'amul Islam. Sadaqa is general charity foor giving to the poor and such.

4.) Regarding khums see http://www.al-islam.org/beliefs/practices/khums.html

The translation is very poor..actually the words war booty is not in the arabic at all nor does the passage refer to war, armies, or fighting. In arabic five is khum not hams. And there are many hadiths by the Imams refering to the khums and its uses. Again I would ask you to refer to shiah sources for your education.

5.) Zakat is to be collected from everyone..poor or not..if they made a net income of $1. The instructions on the amount is derived from the hadiths of the Prophet and Imams. The amount is to be given by the person giving the zakat and khums...this is why the amil will ask you what you will give for zakat and khums. Many call this bargaining. But most don't pay what they are suppose to. So the amil bargaining to bring you closer. If I made $30000 net profit and was offering $550 for my zakat and khums, I would be offering 1.8%...which is not even the minimum 2.5% for zakat alone. Zakat is collected by the Imam or the representative of the Imam. This is the role of the amils.

6.) According to Uyun Akbar by Idris Ima'udin the Dai were kings and ruled both religious and politically. The Prophet and Imams were sources for everything..not just religion. The kings of the current arab state are not following Islam and should not be in power. If you look at Iran..the Ayatuallah Khameni as direct power over every facet of government and social law. This is how the Fatimi Imams were. Sayedna Hurratul Malika of Yemen is considered the mother of the Dais. She was the Queen of Yemen and a religious scholar of the Jazira of Yemen.

7.) I did not write that the Prophets and Imams lead a simple lives, SFA did.

8.) The bohras are far more organized as a community than any other sect of shiah. If you look at the history of bohras...50 years ago the bohras were in the state the almost every sect is now...disbanded and only verbally organized.

9.) Zakat is mandatory and once you take the shahadah...everything in Islam is mandatory. You may not do it, but you cannot say you don't have to follow it. Last I checked no one forces you to pray, go on hajj, fast, etc. However, if you want to be a member of the bohra jamat than the taxes are integral to its operation, this includes zakat and khums. If you don't want to pay..don't be a part of the jamat. Many sunni and shiah jamat also require member to pay member fee (equivalent to sabil) to cover the cost of the facilities.

EVERYWHERE EVERYBODY IS FORCED TO PAY. FORGET THE OTHER FAITHS. TELL ME WHY ARE THE BOHORIS FORCED TO PAY EACH STEP OF THE WAY.

hur:
Go to Iran where the Ayatuallahs are and see what is required and what is not. Sunnis don't believe in any Imams so they do as they wish and follow the shiekhs they want.
9.) I have been to Iran.

10.) Sunni have accepted zakat as general charity. Shiahs don't.

11.) "IMAMS ONLY GIVE DIRECTIVES AND WHETHER PEOPLE AGREE OR NOT IT IS UP TO THE PEOPLE AND THEIR DESTINY BUT THEY DO NOT THREATEN AND HAVE NEVER THREATENED."
--where did you get this info from?

12.) The Agha Khan collected his millions from his followers! All his personal ventures are directly funded from his followers donations. You don't get to owning the largest banks and insurance companies in Pakistan, Kenya, etc. by working as an ambassador. Think about it and read some info on the Agha Khan, his father, his grand father...and then write something about. I'm sure his has a trust fund account that collects money for the donations as well.

The Agha Khan has done a lot for his community and muslim. But there is a reason for the money he gives!

13.) The Imam and the administration of the Imam did live by the money given by the community. This is allowed by the hadiths of the Prophet and Imams. I don't know where your info is from?

14.) I am the one that quoted from the Ismaili website. What force are you talking about? If you don't want to be a member of the community and pay what is expected of everyone in the community what is rightfully theirs according to Islam...then why are you there?

That's enough for now. You critcize me about things that you don't even know about in your own faith. Please learn something on your own first before arguing a topic.

Dear Hur,

Thank you for clarifying about Adamji Peerbhoy. I wonder why a man would leave his Palace to
Syedna after his henchmen desecreted his wife's corpse.

In response to your 1., DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT THE MILLION OR SO BOHORAS ARE THE ONLY ORGANISED ONES AND HAVE INFLUENCE ON OTHER COMMUNITIES? Tell me where they have this kind of influenc? I did not see it in Africa, when the present syedna was deported. I have not seen in america or Canada. You must be aware of what the Parliamentarians said about the Syedna in Canada where he tried to transfer the community properties to his name? Clinton, had no time for him in the U.S. and very low level professionals appear at his receptions as opposed to the Aga Khan's.

AS A RUHANI BAWA DON't YOU THINK THE SYEDNA SHOULD HAVE FORGONE HIS CLAIM TO PEERBHOY'S PALACE AS MAWLA ALI DID TO HIS CLAIM OF CALIPHATE IN THE INTEREST OF THE UMMAH? did the syedna need a hand out so badly?

SO FAR YOU HAVE EVADED ALL MY QUESTIONS, i once again pose them hereunder:

1. wHY ARE PEOPLE FORCED TO PAY EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. You insinuate because Bohoras have a dai and he has the right to force. This is not very intelligent and definitely un-Islamic. Tell me which Fatimid Imam forced his people and threatened them for non-payment or excommunicated. I maintain that a religious leader enlightens people and if people want to be enlightened, fine and if not they should not be coerced.

2. WHY DOES THE AMIL DECIDE WHO SHOULD PAY WHAT? HOW DOES HE KNOW WHAT A PERSON MAKES AND WHAT HIS OBLIGATIONS ARE/ Please tell me: If a person is forced to pay and he pays against his wishes, does he get the SAWAB. An intelligent response would be no. So who benefits? The dai, of course, right?

3. When a person leaves the Bohora religion to pursue another religion, why his family is harassed and why are they required to cut off their ties to the person who left?

Why are BOHORIS FORCED TO FOLLOW THE GLOBE TROTTING DAI ALL OVER THE WORLD? does he have an ego problem? MY FRIENDS WERE ASKED TO TAKE LEAVE AND CLOSE THEIR BUSINESSES AND GO TO DUBAI BECAUSE THE AMIL SAID SO AND NOT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO.

WHY PEOPLE FROM THE US, CANADA, UK, EUROPE WERE ACCOMMODATED AT 5 STAR HOTELS WHEREAS THE PEOPLE FROM INDIA, PAKISTAN, ETC. HAD TO STAY AT MAMULI HOTELS.

WHY PEOPLE HAD TO PAY 786 DOLLARS FOR FRONT ROW SEAT. MY FRIENDS SAID THAT THEY DID NOT WANT THE FRONT ROW SEAT BUT FORCED TO BUY THE TICKET.

WHY WHEN A CHILD MARRIES A NON-BOHORA, AND HIS/HER SPOUSE REFUSES, THE PARENTS HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE. OUR FRIENDS WERE DENIED CHITHI TO GO FOR HAJJ. IS that part of Fatimid doctrine?

12.) The Ismaili share the history and beliefs of the first 18 Imams the bohras regard. It is the after these that their later Imams changed their beliefs. They refer to these same sources both of the Imams and Dais...including the Dais of Yemen and India...both historical and religious doctrines.

3.) The Dai release of materials is his own response. I cannot speak for him. I do know many of the published works are sold at the bohra universities. Then again, the works need to be understood and translated by qualified persons. Historians claim base on the Agha Khans words. Historians write books base on their understanding of the subject. Ivanow..though knowledge..was neither a practicing Ismaili...nor had a fluent understanding of the doctrines/beliefs of the Fatimi. This is half the problem.

Zakat means purification...sadaqa means charity. Zakat is not charity! And this is the problem with translations. Zakat purifies your soul by removing the temptations of the accumlated wealth. The Imam is the one the allows (wasi of) this purification by Allah. Zakat was given to the Prophet only and later to the Imams. Salat purifies the soul and mind in the same manner. Zakat ul'Fitr is to be paid by the end of Ramadhan. Zakat in general is rewarded a hundred times more in blessings in Ramadhan. What I stated above is via hadiths of Imam Jafar Sadiq from various sources like Bihar al'Anwar, Al'Kafi, Di'amul Islam. Sadaqa is general charity foor giving to the poor and such.

4.) Regarding khums see http://www.al-islam.org/beliefs/practices/khums.html

The translation is very poor..actually the words war booty is not in the arabic at all nor does the passage refer to war, armies, or fighting. In arabic five is khum not hams. And there are many hadiths by the Imams refering to the khums and its uses. Again I would ask you to refer to shiah sources for your education.

5.) Zakat is to be collected from everyone..poor or not..if they made a net income of $1. The instructions on the amount is derived from the hadiths of the Prophet and Imams. The amount is to be given by the person giving the zakat and khums...this is why the amil will ask you what you will give for zakat and khums. Many call this bargaining. But most don't pay what they are suppose to. So the amil bargaining to bring you closer. If I made $30000 net profit and was offering $550 for my zakat and khums, I would be offering 1.8%...which is not even the minimum 2.5% for zakat alone. Zakat is collected by the Imam or the representative of the Imam. This is the role of the amils.

6.) According to Uyun Akbar by Idris Ima'udin the Dai were kings and ruled both religious and politically. The Prophet and Imams were sources for everything..not just religion. The kings of the current arab state are not following Islam and should not be in power. If you look at Iran..the Ayatuallah Khameni as direct power over every facet of government and social law. This is how the Fatimi Imams were. Sayedna Hurratul Malika of Yemen is considered the mother of the Dais. She was the Queen of Yemen and a religious scholar of the Jazira of Yemen.

7.) I did not write that the Prophets and Imams lead a simple lives, SFA did.

8.) The bohras are far more organized as a community than any other sect of shiah. If you look at the history of bohras...50 years ago the bohras were in the state the almost every sect is now...disbanded and only verbally organized.

9.) Zakat is mandatory and once you take the shahadah...everything in Islam is mandatory. You may not do it, but you cannot say you don't have to follow it. Last I checked no one forces you to pray, go on hajj, fast, etc. However, if you want to be a member of the bohra jamat than the taxes are integral to its operation, this includes zakat and khums. If you don't want to pay..don't be a part of the jamat. Many sunni and shiah jamat also require member to pay member fee (equivalent to sabil) to cover the cost of the facilities.

EVERYWHERE EVERYBODY IS FORCED TO PAY. FORGET THE OTHER FAITHS. TELL ME WHY ARE THE BOHORIS FORCED TO PAY EACH STEP OF THE WAY.

hur:
Go to Iran where the Ayatuallahs are and see what is required and what is not. Sunnis don't believe in any Imams so they do as they wish and follow the shiekhs they want.
9.) I have been to Iran.

10.) Sunni have accepted zakat as general charity. Shiahs don't.

11.) "IMAMS ONLY GIVE DIRECTIVES AND WHETHER PEOPLE AGREE OR NOT IT IS UP TO THE PEOPLE AND THEIR DESTINY BUT THEY DO NOT THREATEN AND HAVE NEVER THREATENED."
--where did you get this info from?

12.) The Agha Khan collected his millions from his followers! All his personal ventures are directly funded from his followers donations. You don't get to owning the largest banks and insurance companies in Pakistan, Kenya, etc. by working as an ambassador. Think about it and read some info on the Agha Khan, his father, his grand father...and then write something about. I'm sure his has a trust fund account that collects money for the donations as well.

The Agha Khan has done a lot for his community and muslim. But there is a reason for the money he gives!

13.) The Imam and the administration of the Imam did live by the money given by the community. This is allowed by the hadiths of the Prophet and Imams. I don't know where your info is from?

14.) I am the one that quoted from the Ismaili website. What force are you talking about? If you don't want to be a member of the community and pay what is expected of everyone in the community what is rightfully theirs according to Islam...then why are you there?

That's enough for now. You critcize me about things that you don't even know about in your own faith. Please learn something on your own first before arguing a topic.
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Posts: 72

Dear Hur,

My post to you was posted prematurely, so I apologise.

You say the Aga Khanis refer to Fatimid (after the 18th Imam), Yemeni and Indian dai's doctrines. You are so wrong. I have heard many bhaisahebs claim that Aga Khanis are nowadays following the bohora legacy and learning from the bohoras. This is a crap for the ignorant people. I hope you are not one of them. AGA KHANIS BELIEVE THAT AS THE TIME CHANGES THE IMAMS COMMANDS CHANGE. I THINK IT MAKES SENSE. BEFORE YOU JUMP ON THE AGA KHANIS AGAIN, LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE FROM THE BOHORA DAIS:

during Taher Saifuddin's time, there were no forced beards, ridas and people were allowed to work in banks and insurance companies and buy houses on mortgages. Light matam was reserved for the first ten days of Mohoram. The present dai changed all this. Now tell me which Dai was or is following the Fatimid doctrines?

Tell me, upto the 18th Imams, which Imam advocated matam duing Mohram or for that matter after each farz. Matam as done today, is part of fatimid doctrine? karen armstron, in her book on Islam says that matam by the Shiahs of Iran came into being only 300 years ago. Now, the Aga Khanis do not do matam, so do you mean to say that they have preserved the fatimid doctrine as regards matam and the bohoris have adopted Ithnasheri doctrine?

Was it part of Fatimid doctrine to usurp people's properties, force people for payment, threaten for non-payment, harass women to pay to attend a mosque?

Hams in Arabic means 5. I lived in the Middle East long enough to know my numbers. Please see the site you posted. In it it says Khums means 1/5th. There is a difference between 5 and 1/5th.

Translation of Zakat in Yusufali's translation is Charity. Sadaka means charity but it is a different kind of charity. I still maintain that Zakat purifies your property according to Hadith and the Koran. Zakat does not MEAN purification.

I have read many many books on Fatimid History and other faiths. I know a lot more than you give me credit for.

By the way, Zakat did not start from the Prophet Mohammed S.A.W and Imams' time only. Zakat started from the time of Abraham. In the old and new testaments it is referred as tithe (1/10th). Hindus and Sikh are mandated to pay "dassance", which means one tenth.

I think this is enough for the time being. Hope to get some answers from you on the above questions.

Dear Muslim'

"A Muslim woman might have a husband who was still an atheist. "

So what is wrong in what I said. I said Zainab's husband was a Kafir. Zainab was a Muslim as per your quote. Please read the first 3 words.

Read the second quote: She was married to her maternal cousin Abu Al-A's bin Al Rabee. She entered the fold of Islam though her husband held on to his original religion.

Her husband did not change to islam after the Prophet of Islam was revealed. In fact he fought against the Prophet on the Kafir's side. According to the Sharia at the time Zainab had to pay ransom to liberate him. So Zainab was married to a Kafir.

Dear Mumineen,
You say:
A number of years ago, the Pakistani Government (I think under the Zia Presidency), to appease the Mullas (Jamat-e-Islamiyah) were about to delare the Aga Khani Ismaili Community as a minority community like the Qadyanis and Bahais.

His Highness The Aga Khan got wind of this imminent Fatwa. He immediaely flew to Islamabad and publicly announced the building of the largest and most modern hospital of Asia, in Karachi, and avoided the fatwa by bribing the Pakistanis. "

Really? How could he plan such a "largest hospital" overnight afterall he was not building a zoopdi? Wouldn't it have been easier for him to move his people from Pakistan (to the detriment of Pakistan, because it would have caused a big economic and brain drain, which would have served the Jamat-E-Islamiya and Pakistan well),to Europe, Canada, Uk, US, as he did with his people from Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Afghanistan, Rwanda, Burundi, Angola, Madagascar. You see Aga Khan does not need to bribe anybody for any reason. He can take care of his flock very well. He is a good Shepherd. If you have friends in Canada, please ask them how he has been received in the Canadian Parliament and how the Prime Ministers of Canada have received him in the past and at present. He does not need pakistan or Jamat-E-islamiya for his people. He has no investments in the U.S. but has been well received by Clinton, Albright, Colin Powell, Carter, Reagan, etc.

how do you explain:

AK built University Hospitals in Kenya and Uganda from where his followers have been removed, thanks to AK, to Canada. These Universities have just been built and his followers are obviously under no threat of any fatwa.

He is yet building another University in Tajikistan where his followers are not under threat.

AK converted the slums of Cairo into a Park and rehabilitated the poor Egyptians into new habitable houses. Hardly any of his followers live there so there is no threat against them.

YOU GUYS HAVE LIVED TOO LONG IN THE EAST AND ARE ALWAYS SUSPICIOUS ABOUT EVERYTHING A RELIGIOUS LEADER DOES. NO WONDER YOUR MENTALITY NEVER MOVES FORWARD.

Don't judge the Aga Khan on the basis of other greedy religious leaders.

Africawala,
I will state that my references for the bohras are several "orthodox" and "progressives" that I have long friendships with. Neither have title of any kind as well. I am from Africa and these friends are from US, Karachi and Surat (orthodox), London (progressive). With that said now to your responses and I apologize if I don't address them all:

I believe I hadn't avoided on purpose any of your questions. You do have a tendancy to hop from one topic to another which makes it hard to respond.

1.) Your main focus is on forcing of people on monetary issues. I talk to my bohra friends again on this issue. They said commonly the zakat and khums is negiotate...and I brought to them the same question if they paid what they actually owed. They said they don't and this is why it is negiotated, because they want to pay a little as they can get away with. They described it like this: amil ask how much is it for this year...the person will say "whatever you think" and so it begins! It is because of this mentality throughout the bohra community that this item is negiotated (or forces a price on you as you say). And I strongly disagree with you idea that you are coerced or excommunicated. My friend said at least one third of their jamat doesn't pay. So either my friends are lying to me...or you are overstating what happens.

2.) Regarding going to Dubai...again I think you overstating things. I believe only a max of 50,000 bohras went to Dubai...and none were forced.

3.) Regarding matam..it was Imam Zaynul Abidin who taught and practiced matam. This was followed by every Imam. The Fatimi Imams made order for all businesses to be closed on Ashura in honor of Imam Hussein.

The doctrines were always and differenct leaders have enforced some more than others...are they wrong?

4.) Regarding your response..my friend, you are very ill informed on what Agha Khanis believe and practice..as well as their history (based on your comments). The Ismaili belief doctrines didn't change until their 47th Imam. And when I say change, I mean for example that they don't perform salat like 46 of their Imams promoted. They referenced the books of the Fatimi for religious and historical guidance. And for your own benefit, you should know Agha Khanis don't believe Imam Hasan was a rightful Imam.

5.) Regarding five in arabic..ever heard of khamsa athar (five purified). Maybe where you were the dialect said "hams"..but in both colliquial and fusaha arabic it is khamsa. Khums is "a fifth".
this is a site for listening to numbers:
http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner ... umbers.htm

In arabic the word zaki means pure. This is the base for the word zakat with is purification. Charity is translated as sadaqa only. YusufAli follows the same line of poor translation as other sunni follow. Imam Jafar Sadiq in Al'Kafi clearly defines what zakat, khums, and sadaqa are. And please read the hadith with the arabic to verify...you will see the arabic sadaqa is used where charity is translated...although it is used to support zakat...I don't know why.

Africawalla,
as a side note you made regarding the influence of bohras.

In east Africa, as small a minority the bohras are...they have a huge influence on the economy and trading in most of the main cities like Nairobi, Mombasa, Dar Salam, and Kampala for their size and compared to other shiah sects. This is the same in Mumbai, Surat, Ahmedbad, Karachi, Colombo, and many others.

Africawalla,
as a side note you made regarding the influence of bohras.

In east Africa, as small a minority the bohras are...they have a huge influence on the economy and trading in most of the main cities like Nairobi, Mombasa, Dar Salam, and Kampala for their size and compared to other shiah sects. This is the same in Mumbai, Surat, Ahmedbad, Karachi, Colombo, and many others.

Hur, I agree, but let me tell you that there are other minorities in India, like, Parsis who have more "pull" than the bohoris. Parsi are half of the bohora population.

In Africa, the Ithanasheris have more "pull" than the bohoris since the Hindus and Aga Khanis left.

In your previous post you gave the impression that nobody but the Bohoris were "organized" and the credit went to the Dai.

Dear Hur,

As egards your 1 and 2 your bohora friends have lied through their teeth. Every year when our family goes to pay their Zakah, they tell the Amil they can pay this much, then the Amil says, no. no. Pay this much. Then they argue. Please read Muslim's article on Mawla Ali. He instructed not to force anybody.

2. As regards Dubai, we were at my brother-in-law's place when he received a call from the amil who said he should go to Dubai. They had instructions to fulfill a number from the Jamat. My brother-in-law said that his wife was ill and they could not go, but the Amil insisted that they should go and with Mawla's dua his wife will get shifa. His wife is still sick. Amil would not take a no for this. By the way, my brother-in-=law is on Social Security. So please do not speak for the 50,000 who went. I have friends and they said that they were forced to go. Some went but never attended the Ashura gathering except for 10th of mohoram.

3. Regarding Aga Khanis, what they pray, how they pray, that is their business. They have living Imams who can change their prayers, their living styles, etc. They are treated with dignity and very well taken care of. That is the Imam's duty. Bohora dai has changed a lot and hardly follows any fatimid doctrines. By the way, Dai means a missionary only. Dai is responsible for dawa, meaning to spread Allah's word.

4. Regarding matam being introduced by Imam Zainul Abedine, that is a lie. Prophet had said that "nobody should pull their hair, beat their chests, or cry for him" after he passed away because We come from Allah and Unto Him we Return. So I doubt very much that Imam Zainul, Abedine would say so.

5.
5. As regards Imam Hasan as not being an Imam, Ismailis, consider him as a Pir.

Dear Hur,

I forgot to acknowledge that the Imams did close businesses for the 10th of mohorram, but they or their followers did not do mattam.

How does mattam after every farz fit in Fatimid doctrine?

If a Dai being a missionary can change rules, why can't an Imam change what he thinks is good for his community.

Please leave the Aga Khanis alone. Aga Khan is doing a great job, his people are happy, educated, and respected world over because of their leader. He defends Islam and tries to help Muslims all over the world in one way or the other.

On the other hand bohoras have become a laughing stock and are called "kabutars". They are busy kissing the feet of this missionary, and his family, even little babies and handing them envelopes.

By the way ask the UK Jamat. The Amil there has told them not to put money in an envelope because he realised that he was being short changed!!!

Hur,

shiahs considers donations to the spirtal leader requirements for zakats. Once it leaves your hand with the intent of giving it to him...it is wrong to have any claim to that money and criticize what his uses it for.

I'll tell you off the bat that based on that, we will not agree on much. If that is the doctrine for zakats, then it must change and it is consistent with my view that these laws and rituals were political and only relevant to the times. No Dai or Aga Khan or Ayatollah has any incentive to change this very favorable ritual. Therefore, you must....if you care.

is it wrong to give HIS money for something like a genetics school? I'm his approach that many more bohras will be able to attend KU for further development of the community.

No argument here. It is one of HIS (the community's rather) better investments. I hope he does a lot more of it.

I believe totally in giving when in need and uplifting the community...but not by just giving money.

Again, I am in total agreement with you. If you are in position of any power I trust that you will tell him that he is not helping his kids {Shahzadas} and grandkids by just giving them money without a honest day's work. They must earn it. Instead, he should take that money and spend it where we both agree it should be spent.

stop looking at things as they affect you, instead of an overall approach.

Frankly, nothing on this baord affects me as I am no longer a Muslim or Bohra and haven't been since my teens. It is all about the overall approach...how about you ?

Best Regards....

No wonder Muslims keep crying about what this country does to teenagers, turns them into immoral pigs. Time the muslims of America did something about it.

I was living in a Sunni Muslim country in my early teens......Oouch !

Africawala,
Regarding my friends...I think I trust them since I know them for 15-20 years before I take you word for it. They have absolute no reason to lie to me.

Regarding "influence" Ithna Ashari have more because of their population and so a net result. The Parsis have more individual influence than a collective force like the Bohras in those cities. I never said that others didn't have an influence...but if you compare apple to apple.

And again bohras are greatly more organized both in individual cities and the network across the globe than any of the groups you mentioned. This is of course in part to the smaller size of the community also. And impart this is the credit of the Dai as a sole leader of the community in the last 25-30 yrs. This has partially been influenced by the re-unification of the masjids and musafir khanas under the Dai.

2.) Regarding Dubai...the approx. number was published on the bohra website. Not sure about your friends argument...it seems amil picked him out for some reason.

3.) Regarding Agha Khanis...agreed I respect them. But no Imam has the right to change the doctrines established in the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet. The Imams have elaborated on the explaination of these so people of the time understand them...but no Imam can just eliminate required fasting or the ritual prayers as taught by the Prophet. The Imams themselves state this.

The Dais has added to the fardh prayers voluntary duas and prayers...but this is not considered part of the fardh prayer itself. And these duas are taken from the books of the Fatimi Imams of which I verified. I would ask you to do the same before discounting them.

4.) A LIE!!! How can say it is a lie "because YOU doubt it". It is recorded at three authentic shiah sources! Why do we celebrate Milad un'Nabi? Why do we perform Safa and Marwa in Hajj? Why do we remeber Ashura if that were the case!!!

Also the Fatimi Imams did do matam both in the mosque and streets.

5.) A Pir is equivalent to what Khawaja Ajmer is. Imam Hasan was far greater than this.

Dear Hur,

You say:
but no Imam can just eliminate required fasting or the ritual prayers as taught by the Prophet. The Imams themselves state this.

So how come the bohoras pray differently from the Sunnis and Shiahs?

The Bohri prayers are not changed by the Imams but by the Dais.

Africawala,
I am very glad you pointed this out:

"So how come the bohoras pray differently from the Sunnis and Shiahs?"

-Firstly, the bohra fardh prayers are according to the fiqh books of the Fatimi Imams (ie Di'amul Islam by Dai/Qadi al'Numan). They also fall in line with various other shiah kitabs of fiqh.

The difference with other shiah sect (specifically Ithna Ashari) is very minicule and is a result of variations in hadiths of the same thing. For example the niyyat varies, the adhan line varies..etc. This is a result of the varying opinions of the Ayatuallahs. There are some that say Ali shouldn't be in the Adhan..there are others that say it is required.

This action is similar to what the sunnis did regarding what is required,allowed, and not allowed...it was based on the opinion of the shiekh or imam.

Thank you Hur, for concluding that Bohoras do pray differently from others. Period. I do not care if the Shiahs do this or that. Bohoras pray differently. They include the Dai's names in their prayers. Without the Dai's name the prayers are null and void. This is what we were taught. No Sunni does that, neither does a Shiah. This means that the Imams and the dais changed the way the Prophet had prescribed prayers otherwise the Sunnis and Ithnasheris would be praying the same way as the Bohoras. Miniscule or Majorscule, or variations in Hadiths, the end result is that Bohoras pray differntly. Period.You claim Bohoris pray according to Fatimid Imam's doctrines. This concludes that the Bohoris pray differently. Why? Because fatimid doctrines are not part of Sunnis and Ithanasheris doctrines.And then Dais changed them further and added their names and now Matam.

What you are trying to do here is that justify everything according to what the Dai commands and does and then label it as Fatimid fiqh, and Fatimid this and that. You are something. You have lived in that Dai's pond for far too long. I hope one day you take a trip outside that pond and see Allah's beautiful Creation and see how non-bohoris enjoy that creation without the interference of the Dai and at the same time conduct themselves as good Muslims which cannot be said of your Dai or his family.

By the way, you are not a non-Bohori and nothing in the world you say will convince me or other members of this group, because non-Bohoris know what he is. Only few Bohoris like you don't because they have closed minds and blind folds over their eyes. Others know the truth but are afraid of repercussions against their families.
You even justify their cruelties to their people as Fatimi Imams fiqh. I pity those women who are forced into dark rooms upon the passing of their husbands, girls who go through FGM. Another Fatimid Fiqh? And don't forget the highway robberies in the name of religion. What Fatimid fiqh????

Even the Canadian parliamentarians called your Dai a Thug. Your Dai could not pull a fast one even with the best lawyers in Canada. You lie too much and nothing you say convinces me. You guys give bad name to Fatimid Fiqh. Your leaders are liars and are making fools out of you all.

You say your friends are right and mine are wrong. You say the Dai and his Shezadas know the fiqh, Aga Khan does not.
You even challenged the person who quoted Najahul Balagha, Mowla Ali's own sermon!!!! Tauba, Tauba!.
You say Bohoras were not forced to go to Dubai whereas my relatives were called to go.
You say Imam Zainul Abedine introduced Matam and I have not seen this in any of the books I have read. I do not know where you hear all this or read this.
This is going to be my last post to you.

I can never continue a dialogue with people with closed minds and LIARS.

Everytime I think of the Bohoras, Sura Yasin, Ayat No. 9 comes to mind: "We have put A bar in front of them And a bar behind them, And further, We have Covered them up; so that they cannot see.

Originally posted by Africawala:
Bohoras pray differently. They include the Dai's names in their prayers. Without the Dai's name the prayers are null and void.

Would you please care to mention where the Dai's name is included in a fardh namaaz?

Africawala,

"Bohoras pray differently. They include the Dai's names in their prayers. Without the Dai's name the prayers are null and void. This is what we were taught."
--Unfortunately, you claim to be a bohra yet know little about what you believe or don't. Unless your performing a different prayer, no bohra I've ever talked to has said they take the Dai name?

"the Prophet had prescribed prayers otherwise the Sunnis and Ithnasheris would be praying the same way as the Bohoras."
--the difference in the prayers is based on the opinion of the shiekh or Ayatullah that implemented the rule. The Fatimi Imams establish and documented their formulation for the prayer and this is the base for Ismailis. The Ayatuallahs agree with this as acceptable..though they have their own variation. This is because the shiah do hold the Fatimi doctrines authentic.

"What you are trying to do here is that justify everything according to what the Dai commands and does and then label it as Fatimid fiqh, and Fatimid this and that."
--I am correcting your ideas of what is institute by the Fatimi Imams, but in your mind you think is something instituted by the Dai. And this is what I limit my comments to that. The problem that offends me is your secration of Fatimi laws, in your attempt to degrade the Dai.

"By the way, you are not a non-Bohori and nothing in the world you say will convince me or other members of this group, because non-Bohoris know what he is."
--the sad thing is..you who claim to be a bohra..have little respect for what you claim as your belief or your Dai. I don't claim to be a Bohra...maybe you shouldn't either.

"You say your friends are right and mine are wrong. You say the Dai and his Shezadas know the fiqh, Aga Khan does not. You even challenged the person who quoted Najahul Balagha, Mowla Ali's own sermon!!!! Tauba, Tauba!."
---I trust my friends. I didn't say Agha Khan doesn't know of the fiqh...I said they don't practice the fiqh as prescribe by the Imams before. And agreed with the sermon of Mawlana Ali...I disagreed the comparison presented by you of it.

"You say Bohoras were not forced to go to Dubai whereas my relatives were called to go."
--I said 50000 bohras were reported in Dubai...if even 10% were forced to go as you say...there would at minimum 100,000 in Dubai.

"You say Imam Zainul Abedine introduced Matam and I have not seen this in any of the books I have read. I do not know where you hear all this or read this."
-Unfortunately from your comments...you have not verified any books on your beliefs or argument. Please see the following regarding matam and azadari:
http://www.al-islam.org/azadari_40hadith/

And personally you have in most of the point YOU brought up have been very wrong or know little about and lied about. I apologize if I offended you..it was not my point...but my point was to bring up thing taught by the Fatimi Imams (of which you also believe in) and your misunderstandings of them.

Africawala,
I wanted to reiterate a point I didn't make regarding differences in salat. Sunni vary in salat at minimum in four different ways. Sunni vary from Shiahs in just as much in the ways. Both vary the same amounts from the Bohras. The irkans are the same (ie adhan, iqamah, niyyat, etc)..with slight variations in the wordings.

Africawalla,

It is very good to have this debate - it enlightens .....!!!!! so plz. keep up the spirits.

Hur,

You are trying to defend the Dai (mind you, Dai is totally different from Fatimi Imamat or Dawat for that matter). You have a right. You have a right to disagree and debate.

So Br. Africawalla, lets keep on trying our level best. May be, may be (and its still time) in the end we have to say 'answer the ignorant with silence' - but that time is still not up.

I must say that most of the people on this board have knowledge and are capable of debating.

What we all search is TRUTH and what is truth is HAQ.

Salams

Dear SFA,

I have found the Truth and am very happy where I am. I should have done this long ago but was afraid of repercussions against my family members, especially my aged parents. In the end I decided that it was my soul that I had to worry about. When I go up, my family was not going to come with me. When both my parents were no longer with us, I decided to take the leap. As an adult, I had stopped practicing. The last straw for me was when the Amilsaheb asked me to do the salaam to his baby boy. This child was less than 2 years old and barely out of diapers. As I stepped out of his office, I took off my white Khamis in anager, unaware that he was watching me on a T.V. screen. He summoned me back and shouted at me. I never stepped into the Bohora Masjid after that. I started reading and went in search of the Truth. My spouse, my children and I converted to a new faith, and skipped town. Needless to say, we are all very happy. My children have joined the volunteer corps of this community. My spouse and I also offer services from time to time. It was not easy to convert to this sect because unlike bohoras who convert people on the spot, and sometimes under pressure, this sect took 4 years to get us through. They do not encourage conversions so they gave us as much time to back out, as possible. We were very frustrated, but were patient because we had decided that this was the faith for us. We pay zakat, khums, etc. according to what we think we can afford, although we were told what percentage was expected of us and thereafter we were left to our own conscience. However, there is no force. Nobody writes down what we paid. Nobody knows what we paid. There is no bargaining. In return the priest blesses us with long, long prayers and we go home happy and more optimistic. Our life has changed totally.

The rest of our family is still on the other side as their children are married and they are afraid of repercussions. Also, some family members have become chamchas. Our friends are still "in" and are looking at ways of getting out but cannot do so because of family pressures. However, they send their children to Ithnasheri Madressahs to learn the Koran. They have suffered at the hands of the leaders of the Jamat because of their children who have married outside the community, etc. I guess that is the price you have to pay when you decide to stay in.

Salaams.

Hi I am an Ismaili

I have no problems with Bohra Jamat, but I disagree with some of the Logics here,

hur says: -

25 million ismaili (quoted from their own website) even half give 5% of what they earn to the Agha Khan adds up quickly. And this is still 20 times more than the bohoras.

First of all I don’t agree with your 25 Million’s figure. According to me there are around 15 million Ismailies. The site Ismaili.net is not an official Ismaili site. It might be a site, which is maintained by an Ismaili individual, but it is not maintain by Ismaili Imamat.

I don’t agree with your one-sided logic here “20 times more population means 20 times more prosperity”

Since according to your own logic then Ismailies should have 20 times more uneducated and underprivileged people in their community then Bohras (Ismailies are 20 times more then Bohras). But it is not the case.

Alhamdolillah most of the Ismailies are educated. There are some, who had no chance to educate themselves because of communist or Fundamentalist’s dictatorship in the country. Mashallah Ismaili Imamat is working hard to uplift not only Ismailies but also non-Ismailies who are underprivileged in those countries. May Allah uplift not only those Ismailies who are underprivileged but also all other human beings who are having hardship in their life… Amen

Hur Says

Agha Khanis are required as members of their jamatkhanas to pay 15% of the net income to the Jamat khana for the Agha Khan

In ismailism no one forces any one to do charity. Because no one ever knows who is paying and who is not paying they can’t judge them according to what they pay.

The two different ways an Ismaili pays Zakat:-

1. Goes to the donation box and drop the money in it. No one will ever know, who is paying and who is not. No one will ever know how much he/she paying except Allah.
2. Goes and hands it over to any priest of any jamat khana. When one pays the money to any priest, the priest will never bargains with him for the amount of money he is paying. He never even counts it. He just mixes it with other money.

I am not here to oppose any one. I am just trying to clear the misunderstandings. Thanks and Fi Aman Allah

Dear Average Bohra,

I am sorry about that. I guess you were just born that way

Apology accepted....now please, for the benefit of the rest on this board, please use common sense in the future [whatever you can dig up is a good start]. Just make an honest attempt at it...most people are forgiving [like me] as long as you show that you are atleast trying to overcome your ignorance. Most of us understand that ignorance it is extremely difficult to overcome at a later stage in time.

Best Wishes to you and your family....just keep at it.

Africawala,
I appreciate you feelings in regards what you have written of what has happened to you. I have brought your story to my friends in a mean to get a comment. My ortho friends stay it probably did happened...it doesn't happen to the vast majority..but it does happen. My reformist friends say this is the norm.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle...and this was the point of me addressing this discussion, by discussing what is required of the dawa according to the Fatimi Imams. This applies to all Ismailis.

Salim,
My apologizely if I quoted from the site incorrectly. I figured if any site has a figure correct..it would be an Ismaili site itself.

Even still, 15 million is still huge comparatively to bohras. But my comparision was not meant to be linear as you describe. I wrote "if even half give 5% to the Agha Khan.." In either case, this amount is far in excess many times over of what the bohras do. And according to the original Ismaili creed this is required and not a donation. Again this, for your comments, is a considered only a donation now...which is fine, but it shouldn't be considered based on the Fatimi Imams.

And as I stated..I have great respect for the Agha Khan and his followers for what they do for themselves and others. I only make comments when these current are stated as being based on the Fatimi Imams.

Dear Brother Average Bohra,

I guess I'll have to spell it out for you. I apologized for thinking you became an immoral pig after spending your teenage years in America. I was wrong about that. You were born an immoral pig.

I hope you get it this time around.

Best wishes to you and your family. I hope you don't keep at it.