Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Originally posted by qiyam:
Porus,

[14.41] O our Lord! grant me protection and my parents and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass!

Note the reference Prophet Abraham makes for when this dua is for...on the day of Reckoning. On this day...EVERYONE WILL BE DEAD.

Qiyam,

That is stretching it a bit. I would interpret that to mean that he is asking for guidance and protection so that they, the living, will conduct themselves in a way that will not earn them jahannum. That is, their deeds will protect them from fire on the day of reckoning.

Originally posted by porus:

Originally posted by qiyam:
Porus,

[14.41] O our Lord! grant me protection and my parents and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass!

Note the reference Prophet Abraham makes for when this dua is for...on the day of Reckoning. On this day...EVERYONE WILL BE DEAD.

Qiyam,

That is stretching it a bit. I would interpret that to mean that he is asking for guidance and protection so that they, the living, will conduct themselves in a way that will not earn them jahannum. That is, their deeds will protect them from fire on the day of reckoning.

Rabbana ah'firli wa liwalidayya wa lilmuminina yawma yaqawmul hisab.

Our lord (rab), forgiveness for me and for my parents (or those responsible for me) and for the believers day of hisab of people.

This is the word for word translation...no interpretations added. Please correct me as to where I stretched or miscontrue the meaning.

BISMILLAH HIR RAHMAN N NIR RAHIM
I SEEK REFUGE WITH ALLAH THE MOST GRACIOUS THE MOST MERCIFUL FROM SHAITAN ACCURSED,
Dear Muslims...,
Peace be on you all,
Porus I challenge you to refute my claims of praying for the dead in my previouspost. If you have not read it shall repeat it.

Bismillah Hir Rahman Nir Rahim,
I seek refuge with Allah the most gracious the most bountyful from Shaitan accursed,
Dear Danish,
Peace be on you,
This post is to refute your claims that one cannot pray for the dead. Through out my experience on this forum I have seen that you are one of the Submitters who has total Faith in Allah and his Messengers. You are a strong beleiver in Allahs final Scripture Quranal Hakkim.
I have just finished reading the Quran Sharif translated into English by Pickthall(Peace be on him) upto Surah At Taubah.
Heres a Massive point to you regarding Praying and invoking blessings on the dead. All the while you been saying that invoking blessings on the prophet will not make any sense any more AS HE IS DEAD . But here is a verse from the Quran regarding praying for the dead.

9:84. And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave. Lo! they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger, and they died while they were evil-doers.

The them and they referded here are the hypocrites. in other words what the quran is saying that the prophet Muhammad should not pray for the hypocrites nor to stand near their graves.
IN OTHER WORDS means that the Prophet is Allowed to pray for others who are dead other than the hypocrites. That means Allah has given the Submitters the permssion to pray for the dead and to visit their graves in his Final Book Al Quran.
That means invoking blessings on the prophet and his progeny is not a sin As mentioned above and that we as uslims can pray for others who are dead.

QUOTE]Originally posted by porus:
[QB]A few observations:

Bohras agree that salaat is offered only to Allah. Duas are adjunct to salaat and can also be offered at times other than salaat times.

---I would add that superagotory salats are allow be other offered to Allah.

Funeral prayer is not really a salaat as such. No ruku or sujood is performed. So, to call it a salaat-ul-janaaza is a misnomer.

--To a degree, salat is not restricted to just a set form of actions as such. It is indeed still a salat to Allah for the dead person.

Similarly, a salaat for someone, other than dua, as performed by Bohras for their Dai does appear to me to be not sanctioned by the Quran.

---There is absolutely no basis for this statement. The Quran does not restricted salat to just the fardh salats. Salatul tahajjud is not a required salat, yet is referenced in the Quran.

Quresh, Qiyam

Personally, I agree that praying for the "dead" is permissible in Islam. The ayat you quoted comes close to it but is not explicit. However, I agree that it does imply that Muslims can pray for the dead.

I was really questioning whether the ayaat quoted by Qiyam were clear enough for us to infer that the parents of the prophet were already dead when the prayer was uttered. Qiyam has not answered that question.

I agree that Prophet is asking for forgiveness for all believers on the day of reckoning. That all will be dead "physically" on the day of reckoning is a fair assumption. Ordinariliy, though, when we pray for the dead, we are praying for those who have preceded us in death.

However, this begs a question. Where are the "dead" between the time when they die and the "day of reckoning"? In limbo between earth and heaven/hell?

Qiyam,

It has been clear to me for some time that salaat is dua with specific actions carried out in sequence (niyyat, rakaat, ruku, sujuud, salaam etc). This has been established by tradition.

Salaat is for the benefit of the individual who offers it. You cannot perform salaat for someone else. However, there is no restriction for saying dua for other entities in creation (humans, animals trees etc.) Dua can be uttered at any time. Wasila is a form of dua.

Therefore, salaat is 'ritualized' dua for the person, and only for that person, who offers it.

Praying for the dead near their graves is dua not salaat. I do not believe that Bohras are right to think that they can perform namaaz for the benefit someone other than themselves.

Dear Porus,
I was really questioning whether the ayaat quoted by Qiyam were clear enough for us to infer that the parents of the prophet were already dead when the prayer was uttered. Qiyam has not answered that question.

I agree that Prophet is asking for forgiveness for all believers on the day of reckoning. That all will be dead "physically" on the day of reckoning is a fair assumption. Ordinariliy, though, when we pray for the dead, we are praying for those who have preceded us in death.

---the thing is the Prophet was making the dua for forgiveness of himself, his parents, and all believers on the day of reckoning...it doesn't matter if his parents were alive or not...because the dua is for forgiveness for a future time where he will also be dead as well. The dua would not change whether they were alive or dead...because it relates to yawmul Qiyamah.

There is no limitation on to whom and by which means we make prayer (either a dua or salat) for a person. All are accepted until the day of judgement.

Salaat is for the benefit of the individual who offers it. You cannot perform salaat for someone else. However, there is no restriction for saying dua for other entities in creation (humans, animals trees etc.) Dua can be uttered at any time. Wasila is a form of dua.

--on what is this limitation based on?? In the first part of this post you wrote dua is part of salat. Well if dua is allowed for others benefits...why wouldn't salat which is fact a formed way dua???

Originally posted by qiyam:
...it doesn't matter if his parents were alive or not...because the dua is for forgiveness for a future time where he will also be dead as well. The dua would not change whether they were alive or dead...because it relates to yawmul Qiyamah.

--on what is this limitation based on?? In the first part of this post you wrote dua is part of salat. Well if dua is allowed for others benefits...why wouldn't salat which is fact a formed way dua???

Qiyam,

I have no problem with your statement that Prophet is asking for forgiveness for himself, his parents and all the believers on the day of Qiyamat. That was not my question. I was only suggesting that Quran does not indicate that his parents were dead when he uttered that prayer.

You debated with Danish about whether Quran sanctions prayers for the dead. In this, I take your side.

Salaat is different from dua. Duas are included in Salaat, which can only be performed for one's personal benefit. My understanding of this is based on my reading of the Quran which talks about commands and personal benefits for the musalleen and also on the fact that namaaz does not include any dua which is for other people except invoking of blessings on prophets (Ibrahim and Muhammad) and their progeny and invoking rahamat on your parents. And the fact that salaat is a specific arrangement of actions meant to discharge one's personal obligations to Allah.

I can see that this is very problematical for Bohras, especially as Laila al-Qadr is replete with namaaz for other people. In my opinion, washeq, generally, is ok as it is a nafal prayer for one's personal benefit but all salaat for other people are not ok.

By the same token, it is not ok to perform salaat for someone else, like performing haj for invalid people.

Qiyam,

If you believe this...you understanding little of bohra aqidah I don't believe it anymore, but I have lived it. You apparently have to be an apologist, I don't.

You will never hear this from any bohra...I'm not sure who you talk to or follow. I agree, you will not hear this from a Bohra, because they are scared to speak up. I am no longer a Bohra, so I can.

we give sadaqa via money or grains as wasilah in his name in asking Allah for their wish to come true. There is a huge difference between this and what you wrote. A lie...you know exactly what I am talking about. The request is made to "Nadhir Maqam "

Maybe its time to attend a sabaq? Not after reading your posts over the years. Look what it has done to you.....

Sabaq has brainwashed you into not believing what you observe and experience.

The latter is what is real......

Almost all of todays Sabaq is un-Quranic, one of the main reasons that it has actually brainwashed thousands.

If one attends any dire sabaqs these days, they are always finger-pointing at Ali, Hussain, Abbas, Dais and Syedenas. Not one sabaq is pointed at Quran or GOD Alone. Thus every meeting and every gathering, whether joyous or otherwise, immediately starts with "beating of chests" (matam) and slogans to the dead and ended upon the current Syedena Mohammad Burhanuddin. A community full of shame and disgrace towards the Quran as well as GOD Almighty. Niether you nor your professional kothars have the balls to speak up and stand for the truth. I call it the "Cat and Mouse Chase" or the "Tom and Jerry Fiction".

GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE Glorified.

Almost all of todays Sabaq is un-Quranic

..based on the Quranic guy that feels that he is more Quranic than the un-Quranic guy that wrote the quote thinking he was Quranic.....

Then the Quranic and the un-Quranic guys get into it and they agree that GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE Glorified

...comfort zone.....as long as you define GOD and then the Quranic and the un-Quranic guy live un-happily ever after accusing you of being un-Quranic.....

...or Quranic depending onthe type of muslim you are....good or bad....of course depending on how Quranic you really are.....

...So Danish boy are you Quranic or un-Quranic ?

Porus,

can you explain why it is you think saying salaat for other people is not valid? Especially if salaat can be considered a formalized sort of a dua, why would it be okay to say a dua for someone and not a salaat?

For instance, if it is okay to ask God for your own success and good health (e.g.), why could you not do the same for your parents, friends, and so on?

I don't think the hajj comparison you gave is valid because the person performing the salaat is still getting the sawaab; it is just that they also happen to be asking something of God in that salaat on behalf of someone else.

salaam

Khairan,

In my view, 'pyayer' has two meanings.

1. Salaat, a ritual required by God's comamand. This has been traditionally taught to us as children as sequence of activities to be performed. They are preceded by formal niyyat. Salaat is performed at specific times and are therefore planned, not spontaneous. They are performed for yourself.

2. Dua, a plea to God for a special favor for yourself and others. No niyyat is required and can be spontaneous.

Duas included in Salaat are primarily taken from Quran, with additions by the Shia for Ali. Non-salaat duas can be any form of words you think will get your message to God.

I have not come across an instance in the Quran where God is asking his followers to offer salaat for somebody other than yourself. Dua, yes.

Having said all this, I must say this is not a major issue with me. I respect Bohras right to practise their religion in any form they wish. All I ask that they become aware of what they are doing.

Muddai,

I don't believe it anymore, but I have lived it. You apparently have to be an apologist, I don't.

--Just because you lived it...doesn't mean you understood...which is very evident from your comments just on nadhir maqam.

You wrote regarding praying to Sayedna:
I agree, you will not hear this from a Bohra, because they are scared to speak up. I am no longer a Bohra, so I can.

--This has nothing to do with being afraid...you will never hear because it is NOT TRUE.

You wrote regarding nadhir maqam:
A lie...you know exactly what I am talking about. The request is made to "Nadhir Maqam "

--Again..if you didn't know who nadhir maqam...why would you know what the point of putting money in the ghala or giving grains was about??? The wasila is made to Nadhir Maqdam (who is Imam az'Zaman) for Allah to grant the wish or for protection. It is a wasila. Nadhir maqam means "the one who watches over". Again it goes back to actually know why you do things and understanding them.

Regarding sabaq:
Not after reading your posts over the years. Look what it has done to you.....Sabaq has brainwashed you into not believing what you observe and experience.

--Yeh, look at me...I actually know why I do things...what an idiot I am. Brainwashed me to actually reference and quote from authentic source to support what I believe. It is you who doesn't understand the purposes of what you do (did since you are no longer a bohra).

Let me ask you some simple questions:

1.) why do bohras where white kurta and siya?
2.) why do men wear a ring of ruby, coral or aqiq?
3.) what is bawiso, what is it based on and who formalized it?
4.) the vast majority of dua we recited were written by who?

Qiyam wrote:

--Just because you lived it...doesn't mean you understood...which is very evident from your comments just on nadhir maqam.

What a silly notion this is. He understood it that's why he lived it and wasted no time in getting out of it while ignorant people got stuck in it.

You wrote regarding praying to Sayedna:
I agree, you will not hear this from a Bohra, because they are scared to speak up. I am no longer a Bohra, so I can.

Absolutely true. Qiyam and his kind will be slaughtered if they dare speak up. Try it Qiyam. But before you do, make sure you take "wasila" along with you and perhaps some well trained body-guards. Also, don't forget to ask your nearest kothar about how much money to put in the envelope for this kind of event. You either can't afford it or will become bankrupt.

--Again..if you didn't know who nadhir maqam...why would you know what the point of putting money in the ghala or giving grains was about??? The wasila is made to Nadhir Maqdam (who is Imam az'Zaman) for Allah to grant the wish or for protection. It is a wasila. Nadhir maqam means "the one who watches over". Again it goes back to actually know why you do things and understanding them.

The only ONE who watches over is GOD Almighty and not Imam-uz-Zamam. Whoever that Imam is, he is dead and never to return back. Since the inception of this "sacred imam", multitude of bohras have died and Imamuz Zaman is no where to be seen. He is either hiding from GOD or resting in peace. Who knows?

--Yeh, look at me...I actually know why I do things...what an idiot I am. Brainwashed me to actually reference and quote from authentic source to support what I believe.

So very true of you.

1.) why do bohras where white kurta and siya?
2.) why do men wear a ring of ruby, coral or aqiq?
3.) what is bawiso, what is it based on and who formalized it?
4.) the vast majority of dua we recited were written by who?

1. Because they saw a ghost dressed in white.
2. Beacuse they saw a ghost wearing them.
3. Bawiso is father of all bohras, based on a ghost and formalized by the kotharies.
4. By the ghost.

In case you forgot who the ghost is, let me remind you who that might be: someone who believed to have been vanished several hundred years ago out of nowhere and no one knows about him/her and perhaps he/she is lurking around to come out of his/her hiding place someday when everyone will be dead.

Thank for the insight Danish....maybe sometime you can get around to answering my questions you keep side tracking:

So how can you tell me not to make dua for DEAD relatives...when the Allah in the Quran quotes the actions of how Prophet Abraham and Nuh made dua as example of this and APPROVED OF THIS METHOD.

How do you pray, fasting, perform Hajj, etc...when the Quran nowhere specifies in a collated form to perform these things??

When you figure these out...talk to me about being brainwashed.

Better yet...why not consult with your Rashid Khalifa translation and see what his understanding was...so you can regurjate what he thought as your belief. But wait...then you'd be brainwashed.

Porus,

I think a few things are being disregarded. Firstly, if you believe in salat as majority of muslim...it is based both on Quran and actions of the Prophet (and Imams for shia). Therefore, we must reference both. Your answer is then clear, for the Quran and Hadith refer to the salat and dua as forms of supplication and the Prophet often performed and recommended salat for others. Tahyitul Masjid is a two rakat salat for the Masjid your in and is sunnah to pray. The Prophet recommended salat for the health of loved ones. The Prophet encouraged performing Hajj for your parents if they weren't able.

Now if you refer to the Quran ONLY for a reference...then your out of luck on both accounts...for salat and the vast majority of those actions required by the Quran are not collectively arranged in actions by any means in the Quran.

So how can you tell me not to make dua for DEAD relatives...when the Allah in the Quran quotes the actions of how Prophet Abraham and Nuh made dua as example of this and APPROVED OF THIS METHOD.

You can keep on asking me this question over and over again and I will keep on saying that it has already been given.

How do you pray, fasting, perform Hajj, etc...when the Quran nowhere specifies in a collated form to perform these things??

In strict accordance with the Quran. All you have to do is read, study and understand the entire Quran with sincerity and intelligence, keeping your mind, eyes and ears OPEN at all times.

When you figure these out...talk to me about being brainwashed.

When you go figure what I said above, then you'll be re-directed to being "washed" only, rather than being "brainwashed".

Better yet...why not consult with your Rashid Khalifa translation and see what his understanding was...so you can regurjate what he thought as your belief. But wait...then you'd be brainwashed.

I have not only consulted RK's translation but several others including many kothars of my era, in order to 'regurjate' (regurgitate) and reflect upon the Quran and nothing else. In other words, if its not in the Quran then its not in the Quran. Even the actions of prophet Muhammad are detailed in the Quran. Whatever we read, study, understand and perform today out the Qruan, is exactly what Muhammad said and did, period. The Quran contains all the rites and actions in detail, not any more and not any less. Why is it so difficult to understand this?

Thus one cannot be brainwashed by reading, studying, understanding, obeying, acting, performing and obeying exactly what Muhammad said, which is the Quran (GOD's Words revealed to him to follow in accordance). You are brainwashed by idolworshippers (kothars) and guessworks (hadiths).

Kothars (idolworshippers) + Hadiths (guessworks) = Satanic Innovations.

Danish,
Please point out where you answered these questions? Maybe I missed it...so far you've referenced me to a website that correlated various ayats of the Quran to formulated a partial salat...which was even then not based solely on the Quran (ie reciting surah al'fatihah). There is nothing in the Quran regarding the methods of fasting or performing Hajj!

Regarding salat for others...there is absolutely nothing prohibiting salat for others except disbeliever. There is two example of Prophets making duas for themselves, their parents, and all believers.

Thus one cannot be brainwashed by reading, studying, understanding, obeying, acting, performing and obeying exactly what Muhammad said, which is the Quran

--But you are not reading the Quran...but an interpretation of it. Even then you not referencing all of what Muhammad taught. The Quran says to perform Hajj...but doesn't mention what the method is...Muhammad taught a way of performing Hajj not recorded in the Quran. This is the same for salat, fasting, etc.

Qiyam,

This forum has deleted a lot of valuable topics prior to 5:28:2003. One of which was "Dead or Alive" which apparently contained numerous verses from the Quran that informs us not to pray for the dead.

If the administrator have saved them, then fine otherwise you'll have to read the entire Quran, to dig your answers out. I'm not here to babysit and to freshen-up your mind to bring about the Quranic verses again and again. Read the Quran for yourself and you'll find several verses pertaining to the dead.

Yes, translation is the only way to study, ponder, understand and perceive any spoken or written message, including your own mother-tongue to and from any other language. Whatever I have said here, can be easily interpreted by you and translated into any other language that you know of. Its the message that needs to be understood.

For example, if you were alcoholic who remained drunkard most of the time and I was to tell you to stop drinking, doesn't mean that I told you to stop drinking water, milk, juices, etc., but all beverages that contain alcohol in order for you to sober-up. Therefore the message was clear when I told you to stop drinking on the context of your remaining "drunk".

Arabic is a fine language and because of its punctuations and other diacritical marks, its even more easy to understand than any other language, thus its interpretations and translations. After all it was GOD who sent it down for all mankind and there's no excuse to suggest that HE made it difficult for us. GOD be Glorified.

Check this out:
http://www.peopleprogod.org

Danish
This forum has deleted a lot of valuable topics prior to 5:28:2003. One of which was "Dead or Alive" which apparently contained numerous verses from the Quran that informs us not to pray for the dead.

---This thread rehashed the same quoted you used...none of which refer to believers.

Read the Quran for yourself and you'll find several verses pertaining to the dead.

--I have read the Quran again and again...both english and arabic...this is why I know the difference when the translation by RK you use are very OFF!

Whatever I have said here, can be easily interpreted by you and translated into any other language that you know of. Its the message that needs to be understood.

--Languages are not so easily transferable unless you also reference the context of the words. This is the problem when YOU have quoted ayats or parts of ayat...while not knowing or understanding the context of the verse. For example:

9:113 Neither the prophet, nor those who believe shall ask forgiveness for the idol worshipers, even if they were their nearest of kin, once they realize that they are destined for Hell.

---This verse specifically related to interaction between a believer and kafir, NOT other believers.

2:254 O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the provisions we have given to you, before a day comes where there is no trade, no nepotism, and NO INTERCESSION. The disbelievers are the unjust.

---Again this refer to believers interceding for the kafirs NOT other believers, which is not allowed.

34:23 Intercession with Him will be in vain, unless it coincides with His will.

---This leads to the direction that intercession is only allowed by Allah's will....but the fact that it is allowed for the believers to make an intercession THAT coincides His will.

53:39 Every human being is credited only to what he/she (personally) done.

---this is quoted out of context and cannot be used to support against intercession. This refers to sins, burdens, and rewards for actions of other...which is not part of intercession.

Let me ask you a question that Porus brought:

It is very much established that a believer may pray for another believer (submitters say only when physically alive). When does a soul die??

My thought are that a soul is not dead by alive...though the body has expired. Our judgement is not when we die...but when OUR SOULDS are brought from our grave on the day of judgement. Our souls are judged..not our bodies.

To Qiyam and all the likeminded ones,

Why would GOD create HIS creation (earth) for, if it wasn't for HIM who gave us our souls with bodies to redeem ourselves when we are "alive" here on this earth? What's the point of our journey and interim in this life? Why would GOD send HIS messengers, revelations, signs, miracles and warnings for, in this life, if it wasn't for ourselves to take heed and straighten ourselves while we have this chance on this earth? Do you think by praying to GOD for the "dead" who has wronged his soul, GOD will put the dead in heaven or back on this earth to redeem himself after he has met with GOD and known his outcome. If it was that easy for us to pray for the "dead" after the dead commits evilworks, then according to you, everyone is going to heaven because the righteous are going to heaven anyways and so will the evildoers by praying to GOD. According to Qiyam and some others, there's really no point in doing anything right for GOD created HIS creation just for nothing.

[7:34] For each community, there is a predetermined life span. Once their interim comes to an end, they cannot delay it by one hour, nor advance it.

[16:61] If GOD punished the people for their transgressions, He would have annihilated every creature on earth. But He respites them for a specific, predetermined time. Once their interim ends, they cannot delay it by one hour, nor advance it. [16:62] They ascribe to GOD what they dislike for themselves, then utter the lie with their own tongues that they are righteous! Without any doubt, they have incurred Hell, for they have rebelled. [16:63] By GOD, we have sent (messengers) to communities before you, but the devil adorned their works in their eyes. Consequently, he is now their lord, and they have incurred a painful retribution. [16:64] We have revealed this scripture to you, to point out for them what they dispute, and to provide guidance and mercy for people who believe.

[35:45] If GOD punished the people for their sins, He would not leave a single creature on earth. But He respites them for a predetermined interim. Once their interim is fulfilled, then GOD is Seer of His servants.

[39:42] GOD puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect.

[42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit. [42:14] Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts. [42:15] This is what you shall preach, and steadfastly maintain what you are commanded to do, and do not follow their wishes. And proclaim: "I believe in all the scriptures sent down by GOD. I was commanded to judge among you equitably. GOD is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. GOD will gather us all together; to Him is the ultimate destiny." [42:16] Those who argue about GOD, after receiving His message, their argument is nullified at their Lord. They have incurred condemnation, and have deserved a severe retribution. [42:17] GOD is the One who sent down the scripture, to deliver the truth and the law. For all that you know, the Hour (Day of Judgment) may be very close. [42:18] Challenging it are those who do not believe in it. As for those who believe, they are concerned about it, and they know that it is the truth. Absolutely, those who deny the Hour have gone far astray. [42:19] GOD is fully aware of all His creatures; He provides for whomever He wills. He is the Powerful, the Almighty. [42:20] Whoever seeks the rewards of the Hereafter, we multiply the rewards for him. And whoever seeks the materials of this world, we give him therefrom, then he receives no share in the Hereafter. [42:21] They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by GOD. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution. [42:22] You will see the transgressors worried about everything they had committed; everything will come back and haunt them. As for those who believed and led a righteous life, they will be in the gardens of Paradise. They will receive whatever they wish from their Lord. This is the great blessing. [42:23] This is the good news from GOD to His servants who believe and lead a righteous life. Say, "I do not ask you for any wage. I do ask each of you to take care of your own relatives." Anyone who does a righteous work, we multiply his reward for it. GOD is Forgiver, Appreciative.

[46:3] We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them except for a specific purpose, and for a finite interim. Those who disbelieve are totally oblivious to the warnings given to them. [46:4] Say, "Consider the idols you have set up beside GOD. Show me what on earth did they create. Do they own part of the heavens? Show me any other scripture before this one, or any piece of established knowledge that supports your idolatry, if you are truthful." [46:5] Who is farther astray than those who idolize beside GOD idols that can never respond to them until the Day of Resurrection, and are totally unaware of their worship?

[3:149] O you who believe, if you obey those who disbelieve, they will turn you back on your heels, then you end up losers. [3:150] GOD alone is your Lord and Master, and He is the best supporter. [3:151] We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, since they set up besides GOD powerless idols. Their destiny is Hell; what a miserable abode for the transgressors! [3:152] GOD has fulfilled His promise to you, and you defeated them by His leave. But then you wavered, disputed among yourselves, and disobeyed after He had shown you (the victory) you had longed for. But then, some of you became distracted by the spoils of this world, while others were rightly concerned with the Hereafter. He then diverted you from them to test you. He has pardoned you. GOD showers the believers with His grace.

[5:27] Recite for them the true history of Adam's two sons. They made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, but not from the other. He said, "I will surely kill you." He said, "GOD accepts only from the righteous. [5:28] "If you extend your hand to kill me, I am not extending my hand to kill you. For I reverence GOD, Lord of the universe. [5:29] "I want you, not me, to bear my sin and your sin, then you end up with the dwellers of Hell. Such is the requital for the transgressors." [5:30] His ego provoked him into killing his brother. He killed him, and ended up with the losers. [5:31] GOD then sent a raven to scratch the soil, to teach him how to bury his brother's corpse. He said, "Woe to me; I failed to be as intelligent as this raven, and bury my brother's corpse." He became ridden with remorse.

[7:33] Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know." [7:34] For each community, there is a predetermined life span. Once their interim comes to an end, they cannot delay it by one hour, nor advance it. [7:35] O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. [7:36] As for those who reject our revelations, and are too arrogant to uphold them, they have incurred Hell, wherein they abide forever.

Everyone’s judgment or verdict on the Final Day will be based purely and solely upon what one has done on this life (journey, interim) when one was ALIVE and not when one is DEAD. Thus, there’s nothing you or I can do in this life, not even the prayers would work for the DEAD once their interim has passed and their test is over, chapter closed. Pray for the people who are ALIVE and invite them to the path of GOD, the righteous path, so that they still have a chance to ponder upon and redeem themselves before they DIE and before its TOO LATE. It is as simple as that and yet many don’t have the brains to THINK.

Intercession:
[39:43] Have they invented intercessors to mediate between them and GOD? Say, "What if they do not possess any power, nor understanding?" [39:44] Say, "All intercession belongs to GOD." To Him belongs all sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you will be returned. [39:45] When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied.

According to this last verse in bold above, the majority of you are idolworshippers. What can I say, its the Quranic Truth whether you believe it or not.

Qiyam,

--Just because you lived it...doesn't mean you understood...

A down right moronic statement, (and I did really try to sugar coat it). One understands what one lives (common sense), but as is evident from your post, ignorance breeds from failure to apply what one understands, to real life experiences.

which is very evident from your comments just on nadhir maqam.

Then why did you fail to answer the question as to why Bohra's ask nazarmukkaman to make wishes come true ?

...you will never hear because it is NOT TRUE

You will never hear the truth because you don't want to. It rattles the cage of your belief and all you are left with is your ignorance...exposed.

--Again..if you didn't know who nadhir maqam...

I don't recall asking you who he was, simply why we dole out cash (and grains) to have him make our wishes come true.

Nadhir maqam means "the one who watches over".

If he can watch over you, then why not come out of hiding ? Surely he can watch over himself.

I actually know why I do things...

You are giving yourself too much credit. Learn how to know something that you have experienced. It is a heck of a lot easier to learn by rote.

It is you who doesn't understand the purposes of what you do (did since you are no longer a bohra).

Idiotic...no response needed.

Let me ask you some simple questions:

Answer mine first..then I will determine if you are a worthy enough opponent and ask some of you.

...fair warning....they will have to do with the Real World....

According to this last verse in bold above, the majority of you are idolworshippers. What can I say, its the Quranic Truth whether you believe it or not.

O Ya!

visit the following websites:

A refutation to the 'Submitters'
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults ... _refut.htm

Islam = Qur'an + Sunnah
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults ... sunnah.htm

Answering Hadith Rejectors
http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/c ... ctors.html

Zionist Conspiracies Against Islam: Rashad Khalifa's Cult http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/submitters.htm

Rashad Khalifa's Trick
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults ... _trick.htm

Submitters say: Satan is a temporary god on earth! http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults ... _satan.htm

.

Muslim First,

As I said, what can I say, its the Quranic Truth and I knew some guys like you and others would come out to denounce the Quran and object to what Muhammad spoke about, that is GOD's Words. Only an evilminded person can do such a thing. Your title of being a "Muslim First" is a disgrace and floating in limbo.

.
Danish

If you cannot defend the message then attack the Messenger.

I presume you do not find anythig wrong with the contents of the links I posted about your Messenger Rashid Khalifa

Wake up buddy before it is too late.

Peace

.

Muddai,

A down right moronic statement, (and I did really try to sugar coat it). One understands what one lives (common sense), but as is evident from your post, ignorance breeds from failure to apply what one understands, to real life experiences.

--Why was it moronic...you say you lived the life of a bohra..yet failed to understand one of the key aspects of Imamate...which is him being Nadhir Maqam.

Then why did you fail to answer the question as to why Bohra's ask nazarmukkaman to make wishes come true ?

---I did answer the question...you take his name as a wasila in asking Allah for something. It is not nadhir maqam (the Imam) answering your wish..it is Allah.

You will never hear the truth because you don't want to. It rattles the cage of your belief and all you are left with is your ignorance...exposed.

---Expose what...that there are bohras who don't understand what they practice...most suredly there are...but you don't knock the action because the person who does it doesn't understand it. Majority of muslim make salat and have little understanding of the arabic they recite...should they stop performing salat or make the effort to learn the meanings.

I don't recall asking you who he was, simply why we dole out cash (and grains) to have him make our wishes come true.

---Again it is a wasila through him not TO him. And the cash and grains is a form of sadaqa

If he can watch over you, then why not come out of hiding ? Surely he can watch over himself.

--this only Allah knows, and is why we pray for the zuhoor (appearance) of the Imam. And remember how the vast majority Imams died when they were present (either poison, assasinated, etc).

You are giving yourself too much credit. Learn how to know something that you have experienced. It is a heck of a lot easier to learn by rote.

---Again, it doesn't mean the experience was correctly understood. 200 years ago people believed the earth was flat..because they experienced it being flat. And believe me, there is far more that I don't know than do...and I will state when I don't very quickly.

Answer mine first..then I will determine if you are a worthy enough opponent and ask some of you.

--I did twice (regarding nadhir maqam)...read the post. State the others and I will to my ability.

Muslim First,

As I mentioned earlier, only an evilminded person like you will ask others to attack the GOD's messenger (Muhammad) if they cannot defend themselves.

Muhammad said to his people: [39:45] When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied. (remember the Ya this and the Ya that...)

What Muhammad said above, the majority of you are idolworshippers, now that I am 100% sure about Muslim First's disbelief in the Quran as well as in GOD. What can I say, its the Quranic Truth whether you believe it or not.

Please note: From now on, I will abbreviate Muslim First's vehement title to "MF", since he doesn't deserve to be called a Muslim regardless of being first or last.

---I did answer the question...you take his name as a wasila in asking Allah for something. It is not nadhir maqam (the Imam) answering your wish..it is Allah.

Allah doesn't need your money and nor anyone's wasilahs to promote you to heaven without being TESTED first. Only idiots like you can think of such ideas.

Repent and submit to GOD Alone and ask for HIS forgiveness and stop begging for others help by money or fame or wasilas or whatever. No one and nothing will help you for your actions, dude. Don't be day-dreamers or wishy washy twits.