I agree with Admin. I would infact prefer for Ismailis to participate on this board and illuminate us with the Aga Khani interpretation of the quran.
feelgud, thanks for posting those ayahs but I am sure pardesi won't understand and will come back and say that you have twisted the meanings of those ayahs to suit your own agenda. He will however never ever ever come up with the aga khani translation of those ayahs. Just so you know the Ismaili mo.
want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Br MF: YOu posted it
This is exactly the problem with islam. It has somehow become so intolerant and non inclusive, that it is not ready to accomodate the differing versions of its own ideology.
Why has you taken upon yourself to defend, what is not yours.
Where and when, you wish them to go away. Just because, they are not subscribing to your idea of religion. You wish them gone.People like Keshwani and Pardeshi do not know much aout Qur'an. They are knee deep in Ginanas and Farmans. Instead of seeking help from Allah SWT, they parrot 'Ya Ali Madad'. When you tell them about eternal Qur'an they tell you about their living Qur'an. I wish they go away.
This is exactly the problem with islam. It has somehow become so intolerant and non inclusive, that it is not ready to accomodate the differing versions of its own ideology.
Why has you taken upon yourself to defend, what is not yours.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
accty,
Oh please stop your crap. Don't blame Islam for individual opinions. I have never ever blamed Islam for the way you turned out to be, have I?
In fact this is what I stated in the very next post which you conveniently forgot to read.
Oh please stop your crap. Don't blame Islam for individual opinions. I have never ever blamed Islam for the way you turned out to be, have I?
In fact this is what I stated in the very next post which you conveniently forgot to read.
And please don't tell me that I am following a different Islam than Brother Muslim First.I would infact prefer for Ismailis to participate on this board and illuminate us with the Aga Khani interpretation of the quran.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
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Br.Pardeshi and Keswani;
I have opened new thread in 'Islam Today" section, called " THE QURAN AND THE IMAMAH ". Please join us there and give your views.
Wasalaam
.
Br.Pardeshi and Keswani;
I have opened new thread in 'Islam Today" section, called " THE QURAN AND THE IMAMAH ". Please join us there and give your views.
Wasalaam
.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Dear Brother MF,
In response to your posts here, first of all, let me admit that my knowledge of Quran is way way below yours and that is why I consider myself a student. You said that I am knee deep in Ginan, etc. etc. well my brother in Islam you are wrong there - I am upto my neck into Ginan as far as the deeper meaning is concerned. I study Quran not to read it like a parrot like most muslims do but to grasp its beauty and justify my faith into the Ahle Bayt of the Prophet. I would rather be a follower of the Imams of the Ahle Bayt than following some Imams first of whom was not even born until almost 70 years after the Prophet passed away and the last of whom was born, and if I am not mistaken, about 200 or so years later. Islam is not based on the teachings of those four Imams, one of whom is proclaimed as Imam-e-Azam (higher than even the Prophet?). It is the Sunnism that is based on the teachings of those Imams. Islam is neither based on Hadith literature only. A lot of the hadith most muslims have doubts about. And if you base your belief on the teachings of the four Imams and the Hadith then what would you call the muslims of the time before these four Imams. Were they completely wrong in their beliefs?
An Ayah was also quoted by, I believe, Feelgud, that mentions about people dividing into sects. Let me ask a question for my knowledge Mr. Know All. Who separated after the death of the Prophet? The majority. Is the majority always right? Right after the death of the Prophet there were Muslims who followed the Ahle Bayt and Muslims who followed the Khulfa. The Prophet had asked muslims to follow Ali yet the majority went the other way. So who created Sects?
Anyways, we have been through this before about proving this and that according to the Quran. What is the point in arguing again and again when you have already pronounced us losers before the battle even begins. According to you we Ismailis barely have any knowledge, I guess you were comparing our knowledge to YOURS. Wouldn't that make you the People of Knowledge in the Ayah quoted by Br Feelgud?
As for us going away is concerned, my brother, this site is not your property - you are neither a bohra, nor even a Shia yet you come onto this board and play God with what little knowledge you have about Islam or lack thereof. Nobody has ever told you to take your ideas to yourself and go to some Sunni Muslim sites. We are welcomed here just as much as you are, even the Moderator accepts us.
Take the mask of ego off your face and consider youself as one of the common muslims and instead of bragging about your knowledge, share it. Not every muslim is as good as you but you do not have to wear that label on your forehead. The Prophet never did that either. He was humble and he INVITED people to Islam unlike you who wants to keep the spoils for himself by killing everyone else.
I am really not interested in arguing about my Imam's legitimacy to Imamat with likes of you. Lets talk about the topic at hand at the beginning. Or lets talk about Imam Mahdi. Or do you believe in the Mahdi. Or has he already decended somewhere among the bedoins of Saudi Arabia (Abdul Wahab?)
I will end with a famous saying
"If you demand an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the world will be blind and toothless".
Be humble. God bless you.
In response to your posts here, first of all, let me admit that my knowledge of Quran is way way below yours and that is why I consider myself a student. You said that I am knee deep in Ginan, etc. etc. well my brother in Islam you are wrong there - I am upto my neck into Ginan as far as the deeper meaning is concerned. I study Quran not to read it like a parrot like most muslims do but to grasp its beauty and justify my faith into the Ahle Bayt of the Prophet. I would rather be a follower of the Imams of the Ahle Bayt than following some Imams first of whom was not even born until almost 70 years after the Prophet passed away and the last of whom was born, and if I am not mistaken, about 200 or so years later. Islam is not based on the teachings of those four Imams, one of whom is proclaimed as Imam-e-Azam (higher than even the Prophet?). It is the Sunnism that is based on the teachings of those Imams. Islam is neither based on Hadith literature only. A lot of the hadith most muslims have doubts about. And if you base your belief on the teachings of the four Imams and the Hadith then what would you call the muslims of the time before these four Imams. Were they completely wrong in their beliefs?
An Ayah was also quoted by, I believe, Feelgud, that mentions about people dividing into sects. Let me ask a question for my knowledge Mr. Know All. Who separated after the death of the Prophet? The majority. Is the majority always right? Right after the death of the Prophet there were Muslims who followed the Ahle Bayt and Muslims who followed the Khulfa. The Prophet had asked muslims to follow Ali yet the majority went the other way. So who created Sects?
Anyways, we have been through this before about proving this and that according to the Quran. What is the point in arguing again and again when you have already pronounced us losers before the battle even begins. According to you we Ismailis barely have any knowledge, I guess you were comparing our knowledge to YOURS. Wouldn't that make you the People of Knowledge in the Ayah quoted by Br Feelgud?
As for us going away is concerned, my brother, this site is not your property - you are neither a bohra, nor even a Shia yet you come onto this board and play God with what little knowledge you have about Islam or lack thereof. Nobody has ever told you to take your ideas to yourself and go to some Sunni Muslim sites. We are welcomed here just as much as you are, even the Moderator accepts us.
Take the mask of ego off your face and consider youself as one of the common muslims and instead of bragging about your knowledge, share it. Not every muslim is as good as you but you do not have to wear that label on your forehead. The Prophet never did that either. He was humble and he INVITED people to Islam unlike you who wants to keep the spoils for himself by killing everyone else.
I am really not interested in arguing about my Imam's legitimacy to Imamat with likes of you. Lets talk about the topic at hand at the beginning. Or lets talk about Imam Mahdi. Or do you believe in the Mahdi. Or has he already decended somewhere among the bedoins of Saudi Arabia (Abdul Wahab?)
I will end with a famous saying
"If you demand an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the world will be blind and toothless".
Be humble. God bless you.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Dear Accty,
You said
"This is exactly the problem with islam. It has somehow become so intolerant and non inclusive, that it is not ready to accomodate the differing versions of its own ideology."
Please allow me to suggest a slight change. It is not the problem WITH Islam. It is actually a big problem created by a small minority on both sides (Shias and Sunnis). Some are here on this board but they never see that they have created this problem FOR Islam. The image of Islam being tarnished by few who consider themselves to be "all knowers" nauzubillah.
Thanks for accepting our stay here.
You said
"This is exactly the problem with islam. It has somehow become so intolerant and non inclusive, that it is not ready to accomodate the differing versions of its own ideology."
Please allow me to suggest a slight change. It is not the problem WITH Islam. It is actually a big problem created by a small minority on both sides (Shias and Sunnis). Some are here on this board but they never see that they have created this problem FOR Islam. The image of Islam being tarnished by few who consider themselves to be "all knowers" nauzubillah.
Thanks for accepting our stay here.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
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Br. Pardeshi
AS
I have read you post and it shows lack of knowledge about Islam except looking thru lese of Ahle-Bait! The four scholars you mention are not Imams as you understand word of Imams but merely people who studied Qur'an and Sunnah of Prophet and taught about it to their students. One common thing in their teaching is that it can not be against Qur'an and authentic Sunnah of our Prophet SAW.
To be follower of Sunnah of the Prophet you do not have to belong any of four Madhabs named after these Scholars. If you are knowledgeable person in Qur'an and Sunnah you may follow whatever you decide is best in teaching of Prophet.(That is for example may choose any variant hand positions in Salat).
My brother it is very easy to put forward the argument that Sunnis only read Qur'an like parrots and we study it. Believe me brother, with advent of internet, availability of translations and education more and more Muslims are studying Qur'an and Hadith.
If you are a student of Qur'an let me ask you one simple question, Justify "Ya Ali Madad" by Qur'an?
Belief in Mehdi!
I believe in 5 pillars of Islam. I believe in Qiyamat when world will end. It is something which only Allah SWT knows. If Mehdi comes and he is best Muslim around everybody will know. Allah will make sure of it. Why worry and speculate? Do your Salat regularly and give your Zakat. Live good honest life brother.
Wasalaam
.
Br. Pardeshi
AS
I have read you post and it shows lack of knowledge about Islam except looking thru lese of Ahle-Bait! The four scholars you mention are not Imams as you understand word of Imams but merely people who studied Qur'an and Sunnah of Prophet and taught about it to their students. One common thing in their teaching is that it can not be against Qur'an and authentic Sunnah of our Prophet SAW.
To be follower of Sunnah of the Prophet you do not have to belong any of four Madhabs named after these Scholars. If you are knowledgeable person in Qur'an and Sunnah you may follow whatever you decide is best in teaching of Prophet.(That is for example may choose any variant hand positions in Salat).
My brother it is very easy to put forward the argument that Sunnis only read Qur'an like parrots and we study it. Believe me brother, with advent of internet, availability of translations and education more and more Muslims are studying Qur'an and Hadith.
If you are a student of Qur'an let me ask you one simple question, Justify "Ya Ali Madad" by Qur'an?
This is not a problem. Islam is inclusive. Four Madhab and Jaffry Madhab are more or less getting along except lunatic fringe. Problem is people who have changed their Islam beyond the bounds and still insist that they are"This is exactly the problem with Islam. It has somehow become so intolerant and non inclusive, that it is not ready to accommodate the differing versions of its own ideology."
Why do you care brother. Your religion does not even believe in traditional Salah.Lets talk about the topic at hand at the beginning
Belief in Mehdi!
I believe in 5 pillars of Islam. I believe in Qiyamat when world will end. It is something which only Allah SWT knows. If Mehdi comes and he is best Muslim around everybody will know. Allah will make sure of it. Why worry and speculate? Do your Salat regularly and give your Zakat. Live good honest life brother.
Wasalaam
.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
------------------
An Ayah was also quoted by, I believe, Feelgud, that mentions about people dividing into sects. Let me ask a question for my knowledge Mr. Know All. Who separated after the death of the Prophet? The majority. Is the majority always right? Right after the death of the Prophet there were Muslims who followed the Ahle Bayt and Muslims who followed the Khulfa. The Prophet had asked muslims to follow Ali yet the majority went the other way. So who created Sects?
-----------------------
br pardesi,
salam
Plz make a correction "ONE WHO KNOWS ALL" is only Allah ,the Almighty.
No one can claim that he is Mr/Mrs/Ms.Know All.
It sounds illogical that Majority get seperated from minority.
Right or wrong can never be decided through headcounts.We have the Book of Allah,atleast which is commonly accepted proof of evidence both by Majority as well as Minority to decide who is right or wrong?
The Prophet asked muslims to follow Allah's book(Quran),his Sunnah and his companions.
And we all know Hazrat Ali(RA) was one of his esteemed companions.
An Ayah was also quoted by, I believe, Feelgud, that mentions about people dividing into sects. Let me ask a question for my knowledge Mr. Know All. Who separated after the death of the Prophet? The majority. Is the majority always right? Right after the death of the Prophet there were Muslims who followed the Ahle Bayt and Muslims who followed the Khulfa. The Prophet had asked muslims to follow Ali yet the majority went the other way. So who created Sects?
-----------------------
br pardesi,
salam
Plz make a correction "ONE WHO KNOWS ALL" is only Allah ,the Almighty.
No one can claim that he is Mr/Mrs/Ms.Know All.
It sounds illogical that Majority get seperated from minority.
Right or wrong can never be decided through headcounts.We have the Book of Allah,atleast which is commonly accepted proof of evidence both by Majority as well as Minority to decide who is right or wrong?
The Prophet asked muslims to follow Allah's book(Quran),his Sunnah and his companions.
And we all know Hazrat Ali(RA) was one of his esteemed companions.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Back to old tricks huh MF?
So according to you one does not have to be a follower of either of the four sunni madhabs? And if they are knowledgeable in Quran and Hadith/Sunnah then they can come to their own conclusion and choose the path they like? I was of the understanding that to be a (Sunni)muslim you have to adhere to the teachings of one of those Imams (Scholars according to you) therefore I asked the question about the muslims of the time before them.
You finally seem to have accepted Jaffry madhab being up there with the other four. Good. Now you are getting your head cleared up in accomodating other tariqas as acceptable. Al-Azhar did that years ago for your info. Ya Ali Madad is a big part of that Jaffry madhab. Why dont you post this question on one of the Jaffry websites? If I try to justify Ya Ali Madad according to Quran or Sunnah you will not accept it as Allah never mentioned it in those words. Yet the Prohet on several occasions asked for Ali's help. There are a lot of things that most muslims do which are not prescribed in Quran exactly yet they find it convenient to justify it. Want to go into details of the way common muslims practice their faith?
Why do I care about the subject of Mahdi? Because I want to learn more. Whats your excuse for not taking interest? He may not be mentioned in the Quran but there are Hadiths available. Does that mean the hadiths are against the Quranic teachings?
When you discuss something you discuss it to share your knowledge and receive the same in return. Just brushing aside the subject will not do any good to anybody unless your forte is just opposition.
You seem to have a problem with us Ismailis joining the discussion. Every time we post something you and your sidekicks jump to conclusions. We do not preach our tariqa here but you always get us to justify our beliefs. This is exactly why this forum has turned into a platform for abuse. When was the last time you posted something that benefited muslims in increasing their knowledge. This is a "discussion forum" afterall but you come here to preach your brand of Islam. Its like "I am right and you are wrong".
Enough of this. Could you start a new topic about the significance of Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakat. Leave the jihad out of it for now. Why were these enjoined upon us?
A good subject to talk about rather than pointing fingures at each other. It will lighten up the air also. And please have a positive attitude as we all know that you are the knowledgable and we do not know much. This time please encourage others to join and share their knowledge also. Who knows even you might learn a thing of two.
So according to you one does not have to be a follower of either of the four sunni madhabs? And if they are knowledgeable in Quran and Hadith/Sunnah then they can come to their own conclusion and choose the path they like? I was of the understanding that to be a (Sunni)muslim you have to adhere to the teachings of one of those Imams (Scholars according to you) therefore I asked the question about the muslims of the time before them.
You finally seem to have accepted Jaffry madhab being up there with the other four. Good. Now you are getting your head cleared up in accomodating other tariqas as acceptable. Al-Azhar did that years ago for your info. Ya Ali Madad is a big part of that Jaffry madhab. Why dont you post this question on one of the Jaffry websites? If I try to justify Ya Ali Madad according to Quran or Sunnah you will not accept it as Allah never mentioned it in those words. Yet the Prohet on several occasions asked for Ali's help. There are a lot of things that most muslims do which are not prescribed in Quran exactly yet they find it convenient to justify it. Want to go into details of the way common muslims practice their faith?
Why do I care about the subject of Mahdi? Because I want to learn more. Whats your excuse for not taking interest? He may not be mentioned in the Quran but there are Hadiths available. Does that mean the hadiths are against the Quranic teachings?
When you discuss something you discuss it to share your knowledge and receive the same in return. Just brushing aside the subject will not do any good to anybody unless your forte is just opposition.
You seem to have a problem with us Ismailis joining the discussion. Every time we post something you and your sidekicks jump to conclusions. We do not preach our tariqa here but you always get us to justify our beliefs. This is exactly why this forum has turned into a platform for abuse. When was the last time you posted something that benefited muslims in increasing their knowledge. This is a "discussion forum" afterall but you come here to preach your brand of Islam. Its like "I am right and you are wrong".
Enough of this. Could you start a new topic about the significance of Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakat. Leave the jihad out of it for now. Why were these enjoined upon us?
A good subject to talk about rather than pointing fingures at each other. It will lighten up the air also. And please have a positive attitude as we all know that you are the knowledgable and we do not know much. This time please encourage others to join and share their knowledge also. Who knows even you might learn a thing of two.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Posted by feelgud:
"The Prophet asked muslims to follow Allah's book(Quran),his Sunnah and his companions.
And we all know Hazrat Ali(RA) was one of his esteemed companions."
Dear Br feelgud,
Are you denying the events of Ghadir-e-Khum and Hadith-e-Thaqlain in particular? Are you denying the fact that Umar R.A. and Abu Bakr R.A. were the first ones to congratulate Ali upon becoming the leader of the Ummah?
There is nothing here that has not been answered from a Shia perspective. These things have been discussed in great detail by others more knowledgable than me. I have learned from it and if you go back and search you might benefit too.
"The Prophet asked muslims to follow Allah's book(Quran),his Sunnah and his companions.
And we all know Hazrat Ali(RA) was one of his esteemed companions."
Dear Br feelgud,
Are you denying the events of Ghadir-e-Khum and Hadith-e-Thaqlain in particular? Are you denying the fact that Umar R.A. and Abu Bakr R.A. were the first ones to congratulate Ali upon becoming the leader of the Ummah?
There is nothing here that has not been answered from a Shia perspective. These things have been discussed in great detail by others more knowledgable than me. I have learned from it and if you go back and search you might benefit too.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
br pardesi,
I want to share with you what I have learnt from scholars on this topic:
Shias and Sunnis
by S. Abdullah Tariq
---------
After the departure of Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh), a dispute arose for the Caliphate. After some discussion, a large majority accepted Hazrat Abu Bakar as the first Caliph but Hazrat Ali differed. He thought that the Prophet (Pbuh) had given sufficient indication in his lifetime that he should be appointed the Caliph after him. We know from a narration of Hazrat Ayesha that he undertook the Bai’at (pledge of allegiance) of Hazrat Abu Bakar after the demise of Hazrat Fatima, i.e. more than six months after he was chosen and accepted as 1st Caliph by the majority. There was another reason for such delay. He and his wife Hazrat Fatima were not happy over the Caliph’s decision not to hand them over the property of Fidak owned by the Prophet as he remembered to have heard the Prophet (Pbuh) say that there is no inheritance from the prophets’ property for their progeny. Apparently Ali and Fatima thought that he must have erred in hearing this from the Prophet (Pbuh) because had it been so, the Prophet’s descendants would have been the first to be informed of this by him. Hazrat Ali did not even inform Hazrat Abu Bakar of Hazrat Fatima’s death and he could not attend her funeral. However after his Bai’at, he remained a sincere and loyal advisor to the Caliph.
Shi’ate in the beginning:
The first Caliph at the time of his death nominated Hazrat Umar for the Caliphate and again the majority accepted it. When Hazrat Umar expired the candidature of Hazrat Ali was again rejected after hectic parleys and finally Hazrat Ali became the fourth Caliph after Hazrat Usman. Apparently Hazrat Ali and his minority followers remained all along firm on their opinion that he should have been made Caliph in the first place. Those who favoured Hazrat Ali were called the Shias of Ali. The word Shia means party. The concept of Shi’ate in the earlier days after the Prophet (Pbuh) was not much more than that the Caliphate was Ali’s right and of Ahle Bait. Hazrat Ali remained loyal to all the three earlier Caliphs.
The stand of Shias was based on the conduct and sayings of Hazrat Ali himself. According to Nahjul Balaghah (the most authentic and revered book after Qur’an, in the eyes of Shias), when the leader of Bani Umaiyya, Hazrat Abu Sufian made an offer of his support to Hazrat Ali for the Caliphate, he answered, “You had always been the enemy of Islam and Muslims but this could not harm Islam and the Muslims. We consider Abu Bakar, worthy of Caliphate. You only want to create seditionâ€
I want to share with you what I have learnt from scholars on this topic:
Shias and Sunnis
by S. Abdullah Tariq
---------
After the departure of Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh), a dispute arose for the Caliphate. After some discussion, a large majority accepted Hazrat Abu Bakar as the first Caliph but Hazrat Ali differed. He thought that the Prophet (Pbuh) had given sufficient indication in his lifetime that he should be appointed the Caliph after him. We know from a narration of Hazrat Ayesha that he undertook the Bai’at (pledge of allegiance) of Hazrat Abu Bakar after the demise of Hazrat Fatima, i.e. more than six months after he was chosen and accepted as 1st Caliph by the majority. There was another reason for such delay. He and his wife Hazrat Fatima were not happy over the Caliph’s decision not to hand them over the property of Fidak owned by the Prophet as he remembered to have heard the Prophet (Pbuh) say that there is no inheritance from the prophets’ property for their progeny. Apparently Ali and Fatima thought that he must have erred in hearing this from the Prophet (Pbuh) because had it been so, the Prophet’s descendants would have been the first to be informed of this by him. Hazrat Ali did not even inform Hazrat Abu Bakar of Hazrat Fatima’s death and he could not attend her funeral. However after his Bai’at, he remained a sincere and loyal advisor to the Caliph.
Shi’ate in the beginning:
The first Caliph at the time of his death nominated Hazrat Umar for the Caliphate and again the majority accepted it. When Hazrat Umar expired the candidature of Hazrat Ali was again rejected after hectic parleys and finally Hazrat Ali became the fourth Caliph after Hazrat Usman. Apparently Hazrat Ali and his minority followers remained all along firm on their opinion that he should have been made Caliph in the first place. Those who favoured Hazrat Ali were called the Shias of Ali. The word Shia means party. The concept of Shi’ate in the earlier days after the Prophet (Pbuh) was not much more than that the Caliphate was Ali’s right and of Ahle Bait. Hazrat Ali remained loyal to all the three earlier Caliphs.
The stand of Shias was based on the conduct and sayings of Hazrat Ali himself. According to Nahjul Balaghah (the most authentic and revered book after Qur’an, in the eyes of Shias), when the leader of Bani Umaiyya, Hazrat Abu Sufian made an offer of his support to Hazrat Ali for the Caliphate, he answered, “You had always been the enemy of Islam and Muslims but this could not harm Islam and the Muslims. We consider Abu Bakar, worthy of Caliphate. You only want to create seditionâ€
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Amicus Mellitus
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
I see some habitual bad mouths here, I hope they do not indulge in there nasty trade again
I repeat my questions to Ismailiz:
1. Do you pray five times a day and on time?
2. Do you read Holy Quran
3. Do you believe Quran is the final word of Allah swt
4. Do you believe anyone and everyone including Agha Khan to be in error when he acts against clear orders of Quran
5. Do you go for Hajj or Umrah
( Remember Inssafa wal Marvah Min Shua'erullah)
6. Do you perform Wudhu before Sallah
7. Do you pay Zakah
8. Do you face towards Ka'aba if and when you pray
I repeat my questions to Ismailiz:
1. Do you pray five times a day and on time?
2. Do you read Holy Quran
3. Do you believe Quran is the final word of Allah swt
4. Do you believe anyone and everyone including Agha Khan to be in error when he acts against clear orders of Quran
5. Do you go for Hajj or Umrah
( Remember Inssafa wal Marvah Min Shua'erullah)
6. Do you perform Wudhu before Sallah
7. Do you pay Zakah
8. Do you face towards Ka'aba if and when you pray
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Dear Br Feelgud,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Although strictly from a Sunni point of view, I think overall its a fair piece of work. There were a few places where I would like to draw the writers attention but that would have been futile.
I tried to google S. Abdullah Tariq but was unable to find any personal info as to who he is and where he is from (India?) or his qualifications. May be you could help me locate it. I would like to read more from this writer. He also never quoted his sources but thats besides the point.
The topic starter was asking about opinions and that was just that an opinion. There is a lot more on this subject on the net from the Shia point of view, if you care, and what I want to post here is very very large, so I will just post the site here www.peshawarnights.com
Please keep in mind that some writers/historians have referred to this event as one that probably never took place and it is all fabricated. Nevertheless the writer has argued with sunni references all that anyone would ever ask about Shias in general and Ithna Asheris in particular. I though it was very interesting read.
It is from an Twelver point of view and not necessarily all shared by Ismailis.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Although strictly from a Sunni point of view, I think overall its a fair piece of work. There were a few places where I would like to draw the writers attention but that would have been futile.
I tried to google S. Abdullah Tariq but was unable to find any personal info as to who he is and where he is from (India?) or his qualifications. May be you could help me locate it. I would like to read more from this writer. He also never quoted his sources but thats besides the point.
The topic starter was asking about opinions and that was just that an opinion. There is a lot more on this subject on the net from the Shia point of view, if you care, and what I want to post here is very very large, so I will just post the site here www.peshawarnights.com
Please keep in mind that some writers/historians have referred to this event as one that probably never took place and it is all fabricated. Nevertheless the writer has argued with sunni references all that anyone would ever ask about Shias in general and Ithna Asheris in particular. I though it was very interesting read.
It is from an Twelver point of view and not necessarily all shared by Ismailis.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Dear Brother Amicus Mellitus,
Long time!
Your questions have been answered and discussed in exhaustive detail already and created a lot of rift between some on this board which never should have happened. Please go back and search. I think you will find some posts under "Interest" and "Wajeebat" topics.
Things have been sort of calm here and please do not try to stir it up again.
Topics started with good intentions will end up in good discussions. I haven't seen many lately.
The topic at hand is a good one. Why dont you share your understanding?
For months I have been tring to learn the significance and importance of Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakaat, not that I want to get into argument about it, I just want to learn.
Imam Mahdi is a good topic that no one wants to talk about? Wonder why? I am curious to know what belief people hold on the subject?
If you still want to discuss your questions, my friend, I will not fall for that. I am here to add to my knowledge of Islam not to preach my tariqa.
Until I find a reasonable topic I can participate in, take care.
Long time!
Your questions have been answered and discussed in exhaustive detail already and created a lot of rift between some on this board which never should have happened. Please go back and search. I think you will find some posts under "Interest" and "Wajeebat" topics.
Things have been sort of calm here and please do not try to stir it up again.
Topics started with good intentions will end up in good discussions. I haven't seen many lately.
The topic at hand is a good one. Why dont you share your understanding?
For months I have been tring to learn the significance and importance of Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakaat, not that I want to get into argument about it, I just want to learn.
Imam Mahdi is a good topic that no one wants to talk about? Wonder why? I am curious to know what belief people hold on the subject?
If you still want to discuss your questions, my friend, I will not fall for that. I am here to add to my knowledge of Islam not to preach my tariqa.
Until I find a reasonable topic I can participate in, take care.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Dear Br Feelgud,
Just a correction -
It is not www.peshawarnights.com
Sorry. Just google "peshawar nights".
Just a correction -
It is not www.peshawarnights.com
Sorry. Just google "peshawar nights".
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Amicus Mellitus
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Dear Mr Pardesi:
I am not surprised but here we go:
ISLAM IS BASED ON QURAN. IF YOU BELIEVE IN ANYTHING WHICH IS IN CONFLICT WITH QURAN THEN YOU ARE NOT A MUSLIM...PERIOD</B>
1. Your questions have been answered and discussed in exhaustive detail already and created a lot of rift between some on this board which never should have happened.
My Dear: I know the answers to my questions YES but I wanted to hear from Ismailiz and let me ask again: While praying one must face towards Makkah and one must pray ON TIME. DO YOU DO THAT? Nay do Ismailiz do that?
2. please do not try to stir it up again.
I rarely post on this forum. My questions come from the BASIC BELIEFS AND TEACHINGS OF ISLAM ACCORDING TO HOLY QURAN...you could simply have said YES AGHA KHAN is wrong if he acts against the teachings of Holy Quran..where is the trouble?
3. For months I have been tring to learn the significance and importance of Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakaat, not that I want to get into argument about it, I just want to learn.
Now we know !!!!! For MONTHS you have been trying to learn about Namaz !!! A ten year child is to be beaten if he does not pray READ what Quran says about Namaz.and here you are trying to learn for months about Namaz Eh?
4. I am here to add to my knowledge of Islam not to preach my tariqa.
Nobody is talking of Tariqa. Islam is based on Holy quran (and Sunnah), it is about <u> BELIEVING and ACTING</u>, mere words mean nothing. You can read what you want but to be a Muslim you must satisfy certain pre requisites very clearly spelled out in holy Quran and according to my information Ismailiz do not satisfy these.
Let me PUT A VERY SIMPLE QUESTION TO YOU
PLEASE ANSWER, YES or No: DO YOU BELIEVE HOLY QURAN IS WHAT ALL MUSLIMS MUST OBEY?
No blah blah..it is a simple yes or no question
if you say no or answer in long paragraphs I shall have nothing to say to you and if you Happily answer YES...I should ask a few more Yes or no questions BY QUOTING an ayah from Holy Quran and asking you yes or no....all will be clear InshaAllah clear as crystal
I am not surprised but here we go:
ISLAM IS BASED ON QURAN. IF YOU BELIEVE IN ANYTHING WHICH IS IN CONFLICT WITH QURAN THEN YOU ARE NOT A MUSLIM...PERIOD</B>
1. Your questions have been answered and discussed in exhaustive detail already and created a lot of rift between some on this board which never should have happened.
My Dear: I know the answers to my questions YES but I wanted to hear from Ismailiz and let me ask again: While praying one must face towards Makkah and one must pray ON TIME. DO YOU DO THAT? Nay do Ismailiz do that?
2. please do not try to stir it up again.
I rarely post on this forum. My questions come from the BASIC BELIEFS AND TEACHINGS OF ISLAM ACCORDING TO HOLY QURAN...you could simply have said YES AGHA KHAN is wrong if he acts against the teachings of Holy Quran..where is the trouble?
3. For months I have been tring to learn the significance and importance of Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakaat, not that I want to get into argument about it, I just want to learn.
Now we know !!!!! For MONTHS you have been trying to learn about Namaz !!! A ten year child is to be beaten if he does not pray READ what Quran says about Namaz.and here you are trying to learn for months about Namaz Eh?
4. I am here to add to my knowledge of Islam not to preach my tariqa.
Nobody is talking of Tariqa. Islam is based on Holy quran (and Sunnah), it is about <u> BELIEVING and ACTING</u>, mere words mean nothing. You can read what you want but to be a Muslim you must satisfy certain pre requisites very clearly spelled out in holy Quran and according to my information Ismailiz do not satisfy these.
Let me PUT A VERY SIMPLE QUESTION TO YOU
PLEASE ANSWER, YES or No: DO YOU BELIEVE HOLY QURAN IS WHAT ALL MUSLIMS MUST OBEY?
No blah blah..it is a simple yes or no question
if you say no or answer in long paragraphs I shall have nothing to say to you and if you Happily answer YES...I should ask a few more Yes or no questions BY QUOTING an ayah from Holy Quran and asking you yes or no....all will be clear InshaAllah clear as crystal
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Amicus Mellitus
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Before someone may rush to make a petty point lemme clarify:
while praying we must face towards Kaábah, which is in Makkah
while praying we must face towards Kaábah, which is in Makkah
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
.
Br.Pardeshi
AS
You wrote;
If you believe that 49nth and his progeny is going to be Mehdi then only allah knows what is going to happen in future.
By the way you can read this from probably a Salafi site.
I think you should answer questions posed by Brother Amicus Mellitus. It might help if you can explain why Ismailis do not confirm to Quranic requirements and still want to be called Muslis?
Wasalaam
.
Br.Pardeshi
AS
You wrote;
It is a speculative subject. Sunnis have no Imaams (Except prayer leaders and scholars) so they have no ax to gind or prove that his Imaam is correct one.Imam Mahdi is a good topic that no one wants to talk about? Wonder why? I am curious to know what belief people hold on the subject?
If you believe that 49nth and his progeny is going to be Mehdi then only allah knows what is going to happen in future.
By the way you can read this from probably a Salafi site.
I think you should answer questions posed by Brother Amicus Mellitus. It might help if you can explain why Ismailis do not confirm to Quranic requirements and still want to be called Muslis?
Wasalaam
.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
Brother Amicus Mellitus and feelgood;
AS
You have to be very careful when you deal with Ismailies. They hide their true feelings and even on their web site like "cyber murid" do not discuss their religious practice openly. To prove my point look at this discussion on “ Facing the wrong way? ?â€
AS
You have to be very careful when you deal with Ismailies. They hide their true feelings and even on their web site like "cyber murid" do not discuss their religious practice openly. To prove my point look at this discussion on “ Facing the wrong way? ?â€
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
here is some text ,which seems to be reliable coz the author was an ex islmaili:
http://www.mostmerciful.com/agakhan.htm
----------
001.001
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
001.002
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
001.003
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
001.004
Master of the Day of Judgment
001.005
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
001.006
Show us the straight way
001.007
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
Ameen.
http://www.mostmerciful.com/agakhan.htm
----------
001.001
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
001.002
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
001.003
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
001.004
Master of the Day of Judgment
001.005
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
001.006
Show us the straight way
001.007
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
Ameen.
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
peshawar nights:
http://tinyurl.com/ecv3n
...Out of the four sources cited, only one is worthy of mention, which is the Musnad of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal. The other sources are all secondary sources by latter day authors who do not document their material with chains of narration. Al-Khawrizmi, as we have seen, died in 655AH; Sayyid 'Ali al-Hamadhani died in 786AH (more will be said about his book Mawaddat al-Qurba later); and al-Qanduzi died as late as 1294AH/1877. It is therefore most unscholarly for Shirazi to cite all three of these sources together with the Musnad of Imam Ahmad, who died in 241AH. Out of the four cited sources, it is only the Musnad that can give us an idea of the authenticity of the hadith.
When we turn to the Musnad to look for the hadith, we encounter a most unpleasant surprise. This hadith, so confidently quoted by Shirazi, is nowhere to be found in the Musnad. The concordance al-Mu'jam al-Mufahras li-Alfaz al-Hadith an-Nabawi, the 11 volume Mawsu'at Atraf al-Hadith an-Nabawi, as well as modern day computer software have given no trace of any hadith of this kind in the Musnad. It seems therefore that Shirazi, beyond breaking his pledge of citing only reliable ahadith, has even resorted to blatant dishonesty. This would explain why has omitted to supply volume and page numbers for this particular hadith.
.......
http://tinyurl.com/ecv3n
...Out of the four sources cited, only one is worthy of mention, which is the Musnad of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal. The other sources are all secondary sources by latter day authors who do not document their material with chains of narration. Al-Khawrizmi, as we have seen, died in 655AH; Sayyid 'Ali al-Hamadhani died in 786AH (more will be said about his book Mawaddat al-Qurba later); and al-Qanduzi died as late as 1294AH/1877. It is therefore most unscholarly for Shirazi to cite all three of these sources together with the Musnad of Imam Ahmad, who died in 241AH. Out of the four cited sources, it is only the Musnad that can give us an idea of the authenticity of the hadith.
When we turn to the Musnad to look for the hadith, we encounter a most unpleasant surprise. This hadith, so confidently quoted by Shirazi, is nowhere to be found in the Musnad. The concordance al-Mu'jam al-Mufahras li-Alfaz al-Hadith an-Nabawi, the 11 volume Mawsu'at Atraf al-Hadith an-Nabawi, as well as modern day computer software have given no trace of any hadith of this kind in the Musnad. It seems therefore that Shirazi, beyond breaking his pledge of citing only reliable ahadith, has even resorted to blatant dishonesty. This would explain why has omitted to supply volume and page numbers for this particular hadith.
.......
Re: want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss
marriage to christian girl:
Believers are permitted to marry the girls from the people of the Book vide (Surah Al-Maidah 5:5) but you are greatly mistaken if you think that the permission is unconditional. Some conditions are laid down in the same verse i.e. you must pay Mehar to them and they must be virtuous women and not of loose character. Other conditions are derived from (Surah Baqarah 2:221) which forbids a Muslim to marry a Mushrik. As the Shariat orders are applicable on the apparent, all women who are involved in open Shirk, are forbidden to believing men even if they are from Muslim families.
Deriving absolute orders from a verse when there are other verse also, touching the subject can at times be very misleading. For example the same verse (5:5) allows the food of the people of the Book. But the permission is not unconditional although no condition is mentioned in the verse. In the case of meat, it should not be of an animal which is not slaughtered properly. The flesh of swine and that on which the name of other than Allah has been invoked is also unlawful although you frequently find these types of meat in the Christian families. Even at the time of the Prophet, Christians ate pork as it was allowed by St. Paul who was also the pioneer of Trinity in Christianity. And that is not all. You are not permitted to consume meat offered by jews or Christians if you are certain that the Name of God has not been invoked while slaughtering the animal (Sell Surah Al-Anam 6:121).
So you see that the permission to marry a Christian girl (Ahle-e-Kitab) in 5:5 is not without further conditions just as the permission to eat food of the Christians (in the same verse) is not unconditional. A Muslim's marriage to a Ahle-e-Kitab woman is permitted only if she does not practise idolatry and amends her belief of sonship of the Christ to the Prophethood of Jesus.
Believers are permitted to marry the girls from the people of the Book vide (Surah Al-Maidah 5:5) but you are greatly mistaken if you think that the permission is unconditional. Some conditions are laid down in the same verse i.e. you must pay Mehar to them and they must be virtuous women and not of loose character. Other conditions are derived from (Surah Baqarah 2:221) which forbids a Muslim to marry a Mushrik. As the Shariat orders are applicable on the apparent, all women who are involved in open Shirk, are forbidden to believing men even if they are from Muslim families.
Deriving absolute orders from a verse when there are other verse also, touching the subject can at times be very misleading. For example the same verse (5:5) allows the food of the people of the Book. But the permission is not unconditional although no condition is mentioned in the verse. In the case of meat, it should not be of an animal which is not slaughtered properly. The flesh of swine and that on which the name of other than Allah has been invoked is also unlawful although you frequently find these types of meat in the Christian families. Even at the time of the Prophet, Christians ate pork as it was allowed by St. Paul who was also the pioneer of Trinity in Christianity. And that is not all. You are not permitted to consume meat offered by jews or Christians if you are certain that the Name of God has not been invoked while slaughtering the animal (Sell Surah Al-Anam 6:121).
So you see that the permission to marry a Christian girl (Ahle-e-Kitab) in 5:5 is not without further conditions just as the permission to eat food of the Christians (in the same verse) is not unconditional. A Muslim's marriage to a Ahle-e-Kitab woman is permitted only if she does not practise idolatry and amends her belief of sonship of the Christ to the Prophethood of Jesus.