Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.

Br.Mumin110, AS

Are you smoking something?

I asked you about Muharram mentioned in Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet and you are showing me link about Qurbani.

My challange about Muharram still stands?

Wasalaam

.

U idiot
it is about moharram...
U are the one who is smoking the wahabi pipe

Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids... Muslim First, you still don't get it! Quote all the verses from the Q. you like; the quran says little without it's exegetical supplement. Take Khairan's example: the episode of the blind man who approached the Prophet s.a.w.; does the quran explain this episode? or must we rely on tafsir (exegesis)? You have your sources (the credibility of which i have already called into question) and we have ours. In the end it is a matter of faith. If you still insist i can provide you with sources: Pinault, The Shiites; Momen, An Introduction to Shii Islam; Jafri, The Origins and Early Development of Shia Islam; Madelung, The Succession to Muhammad; Tabatabai, Shiite Islam; and Ayoub, Redemptive Suffering in Islam. These books contain sufficient references to both Sunnite and Shiite texts (i have not included any references in Arabic, Persian, Urdu or French because I doubt you are that literate, but if you like i can furnish you with those as well) I doubt that you will actually read these books and I will not waste my time rereading them simply to entertain you.

It is not my place to reply for others but people like Shyba really get me angry, what a Nakhuwwat this person has!!!! Citing a few titles and unnecessarily wasting words of English does not make one any better. For once we read him complain about the level of deate here and now let us quote this person:

> silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.... Quote all the verses from the Q. you like;

So this will be rabbit tricks

> In the end it is a matter of faith.
If it is so then what debate are you talking about? and why are you here?

>If you still insist i can provide you with sources: Pinault, The Shiites; Momen, An Introduction to Shii Islam; Jafri, The Origins and Early Development of Shia Islam; Madelung, The Succession to Muhammad; Tabatabai, Shiite Islam; and Ayoub, Redemptive Suffering in Islam. These books contain sufficient references to both Sunnite and Shiite texts

Site such as answering Islam could give you a "better" reading list....what does the citing these titles prove?.....that you are an erudite person......if so then so be it....what does it matter.there zillions out there

>(i have not included any references in Arabic, Persian, Urdu or French because I doubt you are that literate, but if you like i can furnish you with those as well) I doubt that you will actually read these books and

I see you did not mention the books you ,ight have read in Swahili, Cantonese, Bhasa Malayu or Yaruba........

>I will not waste my time rereading them simply to entertain you.

Waste of time is what exactly you are but for READERS like us it was becoming monotonic, sometimes a lunatic does come along to provide a change

Carry on.........
Dilber

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Br. Shayba

AS

After br. Dilbers response I need not add anything to it.

Wasalaam

.

muslim first,
i have heard of stupid people in my life, but you take the cake. i don't know if it is your senseless babbling or your lack of any knowledge of your own freakin religion. i say get a life, or learn to read some books. and dilbert, you are one stupid person. silly rabbit, tricks are for kids is part of a commercial for cereal. i say it is time to leave your bubble and watch some television.

What a coincidence!!!
We have a brand new member here by the name megaman62.

Hiding behind a new alias does not change anything.

You complained of the level of discourse and the level shown by you is truly pathetic.

Calling names and trying to show your superiority by cutting and pasting part of a bibliography and then showing concern for your own time or waste of it: all this is done when there is no substance behind the character dispalying this manner........
but as I said carry on
one can only wish that name calling is stopped and if something is said then it better be substantial and let it be said in a civil manner without arrogance, abuse or insults----
so carry on if you will
Dilber

Muslim First,

I may have missed it, but it seems to me (on the issue of moharram) that you have not answered the challenge of whether the Qur'an explicitly forbids matam. You have quoted hadith, but obviously these are too politicized and fundamentally questionable to provide definitive answers on this matter.

Despite all of my problems with matam, I also hold the sentiment that ultimately, the wrongness or rightness of it can only be judged by the niyyat of the one who performs it. I think the bohra use of matam is excessive, but that does not make matam wrong in principle, I should think.

I won't grace dilber's last post with a response; if I wanted to insult you I would have. That it is a matter of faith is precisely what Muslim First doesn't seem to understand. I am here to point out that the Shi'a are as legitimate as the Sunnites. Their beliefs have foundation in their texts. Although I did not cite those references to prove anything, if my erudition offends you then so be it. Those are standard works and if my list coincides with another it is hardly a surprise. As far as my choice of languages: Arabic, Persian, Urdu, French and German are standard for Islamic Studies; forgive me, but I don't know German yet. I am unaware of any significant literature in Swahili or Cantonese or any of the other languages you mentioned. If I have offended you by leaving out a favorite author, my apologies. Muslim First asked for "proof" and so I suggested these books, that's all. They cite the Shiite and Sunnite canon sufficiently.

Khairan,

3:169
Think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allâh as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision.
3:170.
They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.
3:171.
They rejoice in a Grace and a Bounty from Allâh, and that Allâh will not waste the reward of the believers.

Here Allah is telling us not to think of those who were martyred as dead. They are happy and rejoicing wherever they are, and that they have provision.

Only when we think of those people who were martyred as dead do we need to do matam. If we know someone is alive and well, we will never do matam for that person. That is what Allah is telling us. They are alive and well.

Look carefully at verse

3:170.
They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.

Isn't matam a form of demonstrating grief?

Why do you have a problem with matam ? Remember...

Whoe forced their beliefs onto you??

So keep dreamin'-a-way of the 72 virgins.....and keep Viagra handy ! Remember, only 4 at a time or you will go to hell...wait a minute, you gotta be in heaven to have the 72 vir...

Aaw, never mind....

I don't have a problem with matam. I have a problem when you say that it is a part of Islam. Because then, you are forcing your beliefs on me. I hope you will understand the difference, but then, never mind.

And you do need to go see a doctor. Cause you are blabbering nonsense.

The 4 at a time is a restriction is for earth not for heaven.

Khairan,

The above couple of nonsensical posts created a new page so you may miss what I posted earlier. Here it is again.

Khairan,

3:169
Think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allâh as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision.
3:170.
They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.
3:171.
They rejoice in a Grace and a Bounty from Allâh, and that Allâh will not waste the reward of the believers.

Here Allah is telling us not to think of those who were martyred as dead. They are happy and rejoicing wherever they are, and that they have provision.

Only when we think of those people who were martyred as dead do we need to do matam. If we know someone is alive and well, we will never do matam for that person. That is what Allah is telling us. They are alive and well.
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Posts: 1267

anajmi
Prolific
Member # 228

posted 02-22-2003 09:27 PM
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Look carefully at verse

3:170.
They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.

Isn't matam a form of demonstrating grief?

a restriction is for earth not for heaven

You speak with so much authority, so when was the last time you were there ? What do these virgins really look like ? How old are they ? What nationality ?

I have a problem when you say that it is a part of Islam.

Whoe forced their beliefs onto you??

So do you have similar problems with the Taliban and Al Qaieda ? Think carefully now, it requires a secular thought and education....

Once you have obtained that, read your last few posts and you may even notice the obvious contradictions.....

Quit making a fool of youself, you keep digging a deeper hole.....

> Isn't matam a form of demonstrating grief?

anajmi,

a few things here. First, I think that the verses you have posted are sent as a comfort to those Muslims who, living in a time of persecution, saw many of their loved ones hurt or killed; I don't think they act as an injunction or a command not to grieve, but a way to make postive light of otherwise difficult times. Of course, this certainly does not make the verses any less applicable today.

That said, I do believe that matam as a practice has little utility if its only point is to grieve for someone who died so very long ago. Because of this reason, I had stopped doing matam for quite a while. However, I have since come to believe that matam is not simply about grief; it is fundamentally about affirming Husain's sacrifice, understanding its significance, and reminding oneself that the successful Muslim puts the Way above the self, because it is only in subordinating our egos that we can truly Submit. Hence the kahvat - "Live like Ali, die like Husain." Most importantly, matam is a way for believers to connect emotionally with this otherwise rather abstract concept.

Another element here, I think, is that the Shia devotion to the ahle bayt is a reaction to what they feel is a general indifference on the part of the Sunni umma, i.e. The Prophet's family should be remembered and revered, DAMMIT, and even if no else is going to do it we jolly well will. This is perhaps more true of Ithna-Asharis than of Bohras or other Ismailis, though...

As such, matam becomes a vociferous and overt way of demonstrating the Shia's respect and love for not only Husain, but the Prophet's family as a whole.

Someone once explained to me that the grief of matam is grief expressed over the suffering of someone who was very dear to the Prophet, not some kind of a challenge to or a regret of God's will being carried out. This is not in itself unreasonable; the Prophet himself grieved and was sad for those who, such as Hamza, were martyred in the cause of Islam.

Just some thoughts...

salaam

Khairan,

You have a great knack of spinning. Well, I don't.

Matam, according to you, is not expression of grief, but expression of something else, when every dai, amil, shia leader who wants people to do matam wants them to do it to express grief.

"Live like Ali, die like Husain." Well, why shouldn't one die like Ali too? He was a shahid the last time I heard.

"The Prophet's family should be remembered and revered, DAMMIT, and even if no else is going to do it we jolly well will." Sure, they should be remembered and revered. Now shouldn't the prophet too be remembered and revered? Of course, but do we have to do matam for the prophet?

""Someone once explained to me that the grief of matam is grief expressed over the suffering of someone who was very dear to the Prophet, not some kind of a challenge to or a regret of God's will being carried out. This is not in itself unreasonable; the Prophet himself grieved and was sad for those who, such as Hamza, were martyred in the cause of Islam.""

So now matam is an expression of grief, only the point of reference for the people towards whom the grief is directed has changed.

"You speak with so much authority, so when was the last time you were there ? What do these virgins really look like ? How old are they ? What nationality ?"

I can speak with authority cause I say what the book of Allah says.

3:57
"But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have Azwâjun Mutahharatun[] [purified mates or wives (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.)] and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening (Paradise)[]."

And now to answer some of your other questions.
What do these virgins really look like ? According to a hadith, the most ugly of the virgins will be more beautiful than the most beautiful woman on earth.

How old are they ?
According to a hadith, everyone in paradise will be in the early 30's. Can't say the same for you though!!

What nationality ?
In the hereafter there will be only two nationalities (for lack of a better word that you may understand), the nationality of the dwellers of heaven and the nationality of the people where you will reside.
So the virgins will be of the nationality of the dwellers of heaven.

So the virgins will be of the nationality of the dwellers of heaven.

...and they have to sleep with the likes of you ??? That would be hell for these poor virgins

According to a hadith, everyone in paradise will be in the early 30's.

So it's OK to sin in the late 30's and beyond since your hadith says they are going to hell anyway ?

they shall have Azwâjun Mutahharatun[] [purified mates or wives (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.

No pulse either Be careful, Donna might really be DON !

In the hereafter there will be only two nationalities (for lack of a better word that you may understand), the nationality of the dwellers of heaven and the nationality of the people where you will reside.

Dude, you already know where I will reside ???? Damn, I know I should have attended that Taliban Madrasa you raved about.

Get a life....I mean here on Earth (which happens to be flat as a carpet).

Sometimes when I read these people quoting hadith about what heaven will be like.. it just sounds like little kids retelling the ferry tales their parents told them so they wouldn’t be afraid of the monsters under their bed.

So sad, so sad. No wonder Islam is the largest backward religion in the world.

sh

> Well, why shouldn't one die like Ali too? He was a shahid the last time I heard.

Yes, and matam is also inclusive of Ali.

Frankly, Maulana Ali is the source of one of the problems I have with matam - I wonder why Husain's death is so lamented when Ali himself was known to have been envious (in particular after Uhud) of all those who were martyred.

Grieving for the ahle bayt and performing matam for them is a sticky issue at best. My point is only that matam cannot be simply dismissed as unwarranted and unIslamic - the institution has far more depth and meaning than as a simple grieving ceremony.

As far as "spin" goes - well, the Truths that are so obvious to you are not so to me.

salaam

Sometimes when I read these people quoting hadith about what heaven will be like.. it just sounds like little kids retelling the ferry tales their parents told them so they wouldn’t be afraid of the monsters under their bed.

True, except that kids eventually grow out of it and learn that it was a fairy tale.

Those of you who beleive in Quran ( I am NOT addressing those who do not)

So those of you who believe in Quran may I ask:

HAVE YOU READ THE DESCRIPTION OF PARADISE in Quran?

For those who do not believe in Quran I say Religion is a matter of faith and your being unhappy can't be helped, why not take a break. It will be a wise thing for you to do.
Dilber

Originally posted by Muddai:
Sometimes when I read these people quoting hadith about what heaven will be like.. it just sounds like little kids retelling the ferry tales their parents told them so they wouldn’t be afraid of the monsters under their bed.

True, except that kids eventually grow out of it and learn that it was a fairy tale.

you both have proved that not only are you MUDDAI but your are KAFIR as well..
so why are you on this site??
oh yes... Kafirs get along well with Munafiqs

Mumin110,

you both have proved that not only are you MUDDAI but your are KAFIR as well..
so why are you on this site??
oh yes... Kafirs get along well with Munafiqs.

Wait, isn’t the title of the page “Progressive Dawoodi Bohras”?

Are you one of those that people that also curse Abu Bakr and the other companions of the prophet? You guys like to throw out these words like “Kafir” when someone doesn’t agree with your close minded approach on religion.

Just look at the state of your “Pak” Islam, its pathetic, they have NOTHING going for them – all they do is kill their own people because of difference in beliefs like in Afghanistan, Saudi, and Kashmir. The main reason that Islam spread so fast in its early years, and accomplished so much in its early years was that Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions where smart and didn’t tie themselves down with stupid superstitious dogma. They were practical, and rolled with punches and were able to adjust their beliefs and courses of action depending on the circumstances, just look at how dynamic the Quran is. The hadith should all be BURNED because they do nothing to benefit Islam, on the contrary they have hurt it to the point of making it paralyzed and unable to move away from its own rotting feces.

sh

Just look at the state of your “Pak” Islam, its pathetic, they have NOTHING going for them

NOT TRUE. since the time when sun never set on Brit empire (now ofcourse it never rises) and when there were almost no muslim country on earth, things have changed there is a turn around. What you are saying might well have been said at various other crucial historical moments but Islam is here to stay.

Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions were able to adjust their beliefs .......n depending on the circumstances.

Don't ever say that again, it makes no sense

The hadith should all be BURNED

When do you intend to say the same for quraan?

Muddai,

So the virgins will be of the nationality of the dwellers of heaven.

...and they have to sleep with the likes of you ??? That would be hell for these poor virgins

According to a hadith, everyone in paradise will be in the early 30's.

So it's OK to sin in the late 30's and beyond since your hadith says they are going to hell anyway ?

they shall have Azwâjun Mutahharatun[] [purified mates or wives (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.

No pulse either Be careful, Donna might really be DON !

In the hereafter there will be only two nationalities (for lack of a better word that you may understand), the nationality of the dwellers of heaven and the nationality of the people where you will reside.

Dude, you already know where I will reside ???? Damn, I know I should have attended that Taliban Madrasa you raved about.

Get a life....I mean here on Earth (which happens to be flat as a carpet).

You are going insane with useless blabber. So I will ignore everything except one - you are assuming that muslims believe that earth happens to be flat as a carpet, which just happens to prove my point that your ignorance about islam borders on insanity (of course, now you are going insane). I am sure you heard somebody say it and decided to post it over here without doing any checks and knowing you, that was expected, but in the future if I ignore your posts (really really ignore) consider them to be worthless.

So I will ignore everything
Gotcha !!! Since you spew ignorance with every post, I really did shut you up didn't I ??? Left you speechless !

Left you Hadithless didn't I ?

What makes me sad is that you seriously believe that all the shit you posted in the last post actually shut me up. Tch, Tch.

As far as shutting up is concerned, there is a hadith which says that a muslim will be rewarded in the hereafter if he backs out of an argument even if he is right. So I was trying just collecting my reward, and you can

True, except that kids eventually grow out of it and learn that it was a fairy tale.

be a kid for as long as you want to!!

Well, since I won't be collecting my reward this time, I will reply to your silly kiddish posts one more time and then I will ignore (really really ignore) everything that you post.

...and they have to sleep with the likes of you ??? That would be hell for these poor virgins

Now how would you know what sleeping with me was like? I guess you must've slept around with the likes of me huh!!

So it's OK to sin in the late 30's and beyond since your hadith says they are going to hell anyway ?

hee hee hee. You really are a numb skull. People die in all ages on earth. Allah says that their bodies will be recreated in the hereafter. Those bodies will be as they were in their thirties which is the time when the body is in the best shape. Man, you are an idiot.

No pulse either Be careful, Donna might really be DON !

Well, I guess you think menses, stool and urine are similar to a pulse and for you a pulse determines whether donna is really don. You are one perverted ...

Dude, you already know where I will reside ???? Damn, I know I should have attended that Taliban Madrasa you raved about.

Sure, there is one in every city. Search for it on the internet at www.islamicfinder.org. There is hope for everyone till they take their last breath.

forgot to mention one thing, those who die before the age of 30, they will be as they would've been in their thirtees, and the best thing is, people will recognize each other.