Just in time for Eid....How symbolic

[porus]

My copy of Daaimul Islam does not have the paragraph regarding 'the rule of action'. Is this a hadith? (reported speech of Imam? Which Imam is speaking?) Bohras don't hasve a clue because it is probably not in the original. If it is in the Poonawala translation, it might be his commentary.

But, what is the problem here? By not waiting until the end of Zuhr, are the Shia violating Quran? Which ayat? Are they violating sunna? Is there an instance when Prophet offered zuhr and asr together? (Bukhari mentions one and there is no condition attached to it)

Which ayat says you must wait 'x' minutes after magharib. Is there an instance when Prophet offered magharib and ishaa together? (Bukhari mentions one and there is no condition attached to it)

Quran, in fact, does not mention zuhr, asr or magharib prayers. Interpretation of 5 prayers in Quran is based on practices. Which ayat says that if you combine prayers, you are deemed to be a kafir?

Here is reference to Bukhari stating Prophet offered Zuhr, Asr and Magrib, Isha without break and with no reason. So, it is sunna.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... 0.sbt.html

***********
Volume 1, Book 10, Number 537:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet prayed seven Rakat together and eight Rakat together

*************

So, what is getting your goat? Imam has clearly stated that zuhr and ishaa start together. So, if you finish zuhr, you can start asr. But you do not have to. You can wait until the end of asr. Similar reasoning applies to magharib and ishaa, except that one must wait for complete darkness before beginning ishaa, which can be delayed untl midnight. (Quran mentions ishaa as night prayer, that is in time of complete darkness)

If you call this innovation by Shia and call them kafir, you will have to apply the same ruling to Prophet.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Br. Porus

Being a non beliver in Islam, you seems to be a farm believer in Shiasm...

Is that a slip of pen?

How can a non-believer in Islam be a firm believer in Shiaism?

Unless, of course, you think and believe that Shiaism is not Islam.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porus

Even though you might not be practicing Shia Muslim you are ardent supporter of Shia Islam that you join the ranks of 'Turbo brand' of ridiculing Islam.

Wasalaam and happy new year
.

[Gursevak]

happy new year

muslim calendar now gregorian as well - when did it change from lunar.

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.
Br. Porus

Even though you might not be practicing Shia Muslim you are ardent supporter of Shia Islam that you join the ranks of 'Turbo brand' of ridiculing Islam.

Wasalaam and happy new year
.

Br. MF, What?? ridiculing murderers is ridiculing Islam? i am ridiculing the Wahhabi murderers in every news i post. Unless YOU are equating Murderers in Islam to being true Muslims following "real' islam Inshallah, i will continue portraying the Intolerance of Sunni-Wahhabi-Deobandi murderers.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
... you are ardent supporter of Shia Islam that you join the ranks of 'Turbo brand' of ridiculing Islam.

Really, Brother!

You better get this right, now. How can an ardent supporter of Shia Islam ridicule Islam? Unless, of course, you think and believe that Shia Islam is not Islam?

I am an ardent supporter of any religion which shows a way to God. I am against bigotry which proposes there is only one way to God, my way. and that I have a right to murder and pillage to make othele see my way.

I consider many 'Muslim' practises ridiculous. Like injunctions against women and non-muslims, as interpreted by the Mullahs. That view is widely held and that is why there is struggle for reform in Islam.

[Gursevak]

I am an ardent supporter of any religion which shows a way to God.

jio puttar jio. wai guru da khalsa, allah malik, prabhu di neela akram paar, the Lord bless us all

[porus]

Gursevak,

Muslim New Year is not far away. We just celebrated Eid al-Adha. Less than 20 days left for the new Muslim year!

Happy New Year (Hijri) to all. And Merry Christmas and Happy New Year (Gregorian) to all.

[Gursevak]

happy new year to all. in 20 days you will start muharram won't you. do you observe 10 days of mataam.

[porus]

Gur,

Bohras seem to observe maatam every day of the year. :p

I intend to attend the Bohra majlis on the 10th of Muharram, yawm-e-Aashura. That is due to regard for my tribal affiliation.

[anajmi]

porus,

I agree with you that the prophet did combine prayers (at least once) as you pointed out. A shia who combines prayers does not become a kafir. Only one who does not believe in Allah and the prophet and the quran (remind you of someone?) is a kafir.

Combining prayers is not the innovation here, saying that it is better to combine prayers without any ruling from the prophet, who hardly ever combined prayers without reason, is the innovation.

Which ayat says you must wait 'x' minutes after magharib.

Please porus, do not insult my intelligence, or your own for that matter.

Can you answer this question from me?

Which ayah says that you can combine zuhr and asr? or maghrib and ishaa? The interpretations of the quran have led to 5 prayers, not the combination of some of those five!!

[anajmi]

I was re reading the "rule of action" paragraph in the pillars of Islam translation and there is a foot note attached to that para. It says that "The Urdu translator omits this paragraph".

I leave it up to the audience to figure out the implications of this.

[porus]

I agree with you that the prophet did combine prayers (at least once) as you pointed out. A shia who combines prayers does not become a kafir. Only one who does not believe in Allah and the prophet and the quran (remind you of someone?) is a kafir.

You mean "Only one who does not believe in Allah and the prophet and the quran like I do is a kafir. Shias are kafir because they worship Ali, someone other than Allah."

Combining prayers is not the innovation here, saying that it is better to combine prayers without any ruling from the prophet, who hardly ever combined prayers without reason, is the innovation.

Do the Shia say that it is better to combine prayers? That is news to me. Can you quote a Shia source for this? I think that the practise just grew into a tradition.

Please porus, do not insult my intelligence....

You are doing a splendid job yourself without my help. Try to make a distinction between "prescriptive" ayats and "non-prescriptive" ayats. There is no quranic prescription about ishaa except that it is a night prayer. There is no quranic prescription that prevents you from combining prayers. If Prophet did it once, then it is sufficient precedent for all time. And since prophet did it, it cannot be against the Quran. So, do you still have a problem? No one prevents you from having seperate times for them. Shia do not say that you cannot perform them separately.

On lailat-ul-qadr, Bohras delay praying ishaa until close to midnight.

[Muslim]

Anajmi,

You first stated:

Besides, combining prayers is not an interpretation of the quran, but an innovation.

Now you have changed your tune:

Combining prayers is not the innovation here, saying that it is better to combine prayers without any ruling from the prophet, who hardly ever combined prayers without reason, is the innovation.

Do Bohras actually say that combining prayers is better? I would think not as on Laylatul-Qadr, a night on which prayers are especially significant, Isha is prayer separately after Maghrib.

Which ayah says that you can combine zuhr and asr? or maghrib and ishaa? The interpretations of the quran have led to 5 prayers, not the combination of some of those five!!

Have you not already stated that the prophet combined prayers? If so, then why do you need proof from the Quran?

[porus]

Daaimul Islam was written in Egypt following the schism which created Ismaili and Ithna-ashari lines of Imams. However, the practice of combining prayers is prevalent in both branches.

This means that the practise originated long before the schism and may have been common during the Imamat of Husain onwards.

[anajmi]

So you agree, that it is not a ruling from the prophet or the quran that it is better to combine prayers. It is only a shia tradition. It is surprising how shias latch onto something that the prophet did only once and not onto something that he did far more often. If we go by shear numbers then praying separately at their prescribed times is better than combining prayers.

Combining prayers is a matter of convenience and not a religious ruling.

[anajmi]

Muslim,

porus stated that combining of prayers is a practice that can be traced back to the quran. It cannot. So if you say that, then it is an innovation.

Do Bohras actually say that combining prayers is better?

So you agree that it is actually better to pray separately right?

I would think not as on Laylatul-Qadr, a night on which prayers are especially significant, Isha is prayer separately after Maghrib.

Now, imagine if bohras were smart enough to do the same every single night. But with leaders like yourself and porus, I doubt it.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Combining prayers is a matter of convenience and not a religious ruling.

Agreed. It is convenient, and it is traditional. If there was a Sunni state with a substantial shia population, a religious ruling to allow combined prayers may be required to prevent wahhabi fanatics from blowing up shia mosques.

[porus]

anajmi,

saying a is not better than b does not imply b is better a.

This is an example of how you insult your own intelligence.

[Muslim]

porus stated that combining of prayers is a practice that can be traced back to the quran. It cannot. So if you say that, then it is an innovation

It is a practice of the Prophet, as you have admitted. For most Muslims, that is enough.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:

porus stated that combining of prayers is a practice that can be traced back to the quran.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim:
It is a practice of the Prophet, as you have admitted. For most Muslims, that is enough.

For the Shia, Prophet is Quran personified, a "Bolta Quran".

[anajmi]

Muslim,

It is a practice of the Prophet, as you have admitted. For most Muslims, that is enough.

As I said earlier, it is surprising how shias latch onto something that the prophet did only once and not onto something that he did far more often. If we go by shear numbers then praying separately at their prescribed times is better than combining prayers. And also this, combining prayers is a matter of convenience and not a religious ruling. So please, do not insult my intelligence by saying that you do it because the prophet did it. No, you do it because it is convenient. Even you agree that it is better to pray separately, as the bohras do it on Lailatul qadr.

porus,

For the Shia, Prophet is Quran personified, a "Bolta Quran".

Apparently, shias only hear what they want to hear from this "bolta quran". They heard that the prophet combined prayers once, never heard about how the prophet prayed separately every other time.

[anajmi]

porus,

Originally posted by porus:

Originally posted by anajmi:
Combining prayers is a matter of convenience and not a religious ruling.

Agreed. It is convenient, and it is traditional. If there was a Sunni state with a substantial shia population, a religious ruling to allow combined prayers may be required to prevent wahhabi fanatics from blowing up shia mosques.

It was a religious ruling, until you ran into anajmi. That is when things changed and you had to eat your own words.

[anajmi]

Originally posted by porus:

Originally posted by anajmi:

porus stated that combining of prayers is a practice that can be traced back to the quran.

[/b]

This is what porus stated in an earlier post of his on this thread

All namaaz practices by Bohras are traced back to the authority of the Prophet and Quran.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
This is what porus stated in an earlier post of his on this thread

All namaaz practices by Bohras are traced back to the authority of the Prophet and Quran.

Q.E.D.

[anajmi]

Originally posted by porus:

Originally posted by anajmi:
Combining prayers is a matter of convenience and not a religious ruling.

Agreed.

Q.E.D. ??

[Muslim]

latch onto something that the prophet did only once

Did only once according to you. You read one Sunni hadith, doesn't mean he did it only once. The key message is the Shia "latch onto something that the prophet did" by allowing for both combination and separation in prayers and oddly you seem to be complaining about it.

And also this, combining prayers is a matter of convenience and not a religious ruling.

Again your opinion that this is purely a matter of convenience. This was a way the Prophet prayed and therefore a part of religion, convenient or not.

So please, do not insult my intelligence by saying that you do it because the prophet did it. No, you do it because it is convenient.

Please do not insult your own intelligence by questioning my intentions. I could quite easily say that you find it more convenient to separate prayers as they would be of shorter duration, but that wouldn't get the discussion any further.

Even you agree that it is better to pray separately, as the bohras do it on Lailatul qadr.

No I did not say that. Please re-read what I wrote.

never heard about how the prophet prayed separately every other time.

Again, Shias don't have an issue with praying separately and they often do. And they are not going against any commandment by combining. So not sure what you still are quarelling about.

Anajmi, can you spot the difference? I'll help you.

Anajmi: porus stated that combining of prayers is a practice that can be traced back to the quran.

Porus: All namaaz practices by Bohras are traced back to the authority of the Prophet and Quran.

[anajmi]

Muslim,

Here is a paragraph from Daimul Islam as a final post on this topic. I think my point has been made.

The rule of action, however, based on what was witnessed by the people and according to the calls to prayer whereof the Imams were apprised, is that the call for the asr should be given at the beginning of the ninth hour [after sunrise], and this is two complete hours after midday. This closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad b. Ali [Imam al-Baqir] reported by us, and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al-Sadiq]. He, who offers his zuhr prayer in leisurely fashion--the compulsory, the sunna, and the supererogatory prayers--and prays in the proper manner, would not take less than two hours of the day [to perform them].

So please, next time you combine prayers, make sure that your zuhr is two hours long.

[Muslim]

I'm not sure what point you have made. The imams are not saying taking 2 hours is the only way to do combined prayers.

What you quoted corresponds to an earlier quoted part of Da'aim. Nothing wrong with combining by taking your time for zuhr (including fardh and ALL supplementary prayers and dua) if you choose to do so:

Jafar b. Muhammad: He said, 'When the sun declines from the meridian there arrives the time for the prayers of zuhr and asr. Nothing prevents the asr prayer to be said immediately after the zuhr except the supererogatory prayer (nafila) and the glorification of God (subha), which is to be said after the zuhr and before the asr. If a man so desires he may take his own time [for the supererogatory prayers and the rosary] until the shadow [of the man] cast by the sun lengthens itself to twice the stature of man, or he may curtail such orisons.

So yet again what is your problem with this?