Some sayings of Imam Ali (A.S)

[porus]

anajmi,

You're welcome.

The onus is on you and MF to prove that Sunnis "practice" Islam exactly as Muslims did during Prophet's time. Give me an example of Prophet quoting hadith, for example, at a drop of a hat.

[anajmi]

porus,

Actually I don't think I will be wasting anymore time.

[anajmi]

During the time of the prophet there was an incident narrated by ibh Katheer after the prophet moved to Medina. The leader of the jewish tribe Banu Qurayda and one of his tribesman were having this conversation when the tribesman asked the leader if Muhammed was the prophet mentioned in their books and what was he going to do about it. The leader replied that he believed that the Muhammed was the same person mentioned in their books and that he would fight him till the day he dies. So you see he believed who the prophet was and still chose to fight him.

Same is the case with people like you who ask us to produce the proof and then tell us that we cannot use the evidence that we have as proof because you have chosen not to believe in it. Even in the court of a human judge your case would be thrown out in no time, now imagine what would happen in a court where Allah is the judge.

Now I believe that the above incident happened. Prove it to me that it didn't!! But wait, the onus is on me to prove that it happened.

How nice would it be if I could shift the onus on you to prove that I am wrong and then also to prove that you are right. So then I would say that the onus is on you to prove that we do not pray "exactly" like the prophet did and you prove it to me that Hanuman swallowed the sun.
But you cannot use the Ramayan to prove it!!

[anajmi]

One more stupid question I have. Can Hanuman use the Ramayan to prove that he swallowed the Sun? Or do we need to ask him to swallow it again?

[anajmi]

Like you, I know exactly what 'truth' is. Your 'truth' is no more or no less true than my 'truth'. That is the beauty of non-physical universe. Everything is equally true and valid.

The even more beautiful thing is that you actually don't believe in your "truth". I do in mine!!

[porus]

And how do you know that I actually don’t believe in my “truth”?

OK. There are two types of “truth”. “Truth” in physical universe is a statement about some entity that can be agreed by others through some operational procedure. Eg, if I say that white light is made of many colors and show you a way to verify it, then that “truth” is a statement of what is so. You do not need a belief for that.

The other type of “truth” is some statement about our mental universe where no operational procedure can be unfailingly specified. Eg if I say that angels will visit you in your grave, then that is a statement of my belief and what is so only for me, because I have no way of verifying it for you or me.

Beliefs are statements about what is so for you and you alone. Of course, you are free to adopt any of the off-the-shelf belief systems such as “your” Islam, or “your” Hinduism or create your own. But they become your beliefs and you take responsibility for them.

If you see a pink elephant walking with you everywhere, then you are welcome to it. However if I do not agree with you and you then think it is very bad of me not to agree with what is in your mental universe, and therefore I am a bad person and therefore I must be ridiculed and attacked; that would not be good in my scale of values. But that is exactly what the anti-shia hanbali/wahhabi/salafis do. What distinguishes them is their arrogance in “believing” that the have the only “truth” and feel oh so superior to others. Do you see that attitude in some of MF’s postings? “I follow the Quran and sunnah; I am good; you do not follow Quran and sunnah; therefore you are bad; better change your ways.” That sort of attitude only strengthens those who are being attacked and forces them to retaliate.

You know what is a logical conclusion of this attitude? Widespread attacks on Shia throughout the world by Sipah-e-Sahaba and similar wahhabi/Salafi outfits. And the Shia retaliation.

There cannot be any “objective truth” out there. It is all a mental construct. Piety of Sunnis and Shias, both equally valid, are just individual metaphysical experiments in order to search the “Divine”.

How this affects politics of a multi-faith society is a different issue., which we can discuss elsewhere.

[anajmi]

And how do you know that I actually don’t believe in my “truth”?

If you do, then prove it.

Let us go back to the beginning. The discussion started with the bohra beliefs as against the sunni beliefs. Both are beliefs, so you putting your two cents in with Hanuman swallowing the sun actually holds no water and neither does your explanation about the "truth" as you perceive it.

I have been told to tell everyone that my faith is the truth and that is what I will do. I don't care if it does not satisfy the criteria for truth according to you. That is what I believe and if you think I am wrong, prove it to me.

Now I know what you are saying, that by the same criteria, Hanuman swallowing the sun could also be true, sure, but I don't believe it. I believe, that only what I believe in, is the truth and if you think I am wrong, prove it to me.

One final statement that I would like to make is this. According to you,

Whatever you mean by "practice" of Islam, I am certain of this. Their "practice" of Islam was a universe away from current "practice" of all Muslims, including Bohras, Sunnis and Wahhabis.

When I asked you for specific examples, you skirted the issue by shifting the onus to do all the proving onto me. That shows the double standard of the free thinking crowd. There is obviously no "truth" or "proof" associated with that comment of yours as per your own definition of "truth" or "proof". It is simply your belief. You are allowed to have yours and I am not allowed to have mine.

Next time you ask me to show you how the prophet followed Islam exactly, kindly also define of what you mean by "exactly". Make sure that when you ask for proof you don't set the standard so high that it makes it impossible for you to believe in it. It's not my loss, it's yours. After all, heaven is promised to those who have faith, not to those who have proof.

[porus]

anajmi,

I maintain that it is not possible to prove anything about entities (thoughts, feelings beliefs etc) in your mental universe. All entities are created by you. There is no procedure for proof like there is for entities in physical universe.

Hanuman swallowed the sun according to Valmiki. It is there in his Ramayana. Ergo, he swallowed it.

Prophet prayed five times. It is there in hadith. Ergo, he prayed five times.

Both Ramayana and hadith are books. You believe one and not the other. That is your choice. Nothing wrong with that. You just need to accept your responsibility in creating one mental entity as truth and other as false.

Having decided that you want to follow prophet, you pray five times. That is ok.

Bohras have a different construct. They also say that they follow prophet and they do not wait too long, if at all, between zohar and asr namaaz and magharib and isha namaaz. They still pray five namaaz with five different niyyats. As ex-bohra, you should know that.

Now, like you, Bohras are also true followers of Prophet. You have your hadith and they have theirs.

Can you both be right? Of course. They have different mental construct. Are you justified in quarrelling about who is right? I don't think so.

My mental construct is that neither of you are following Islam exactly as Prophet. That is my mental construct. I have my books too. And I cannot prove it to you for the reasons outlined. We are not talking physics here.

[anajmi]

You know what is a logical conclusion of this attitude? Widespread attacks on Shia throughout the world by Sipah-e-Sahaba and similar wahhabi/Salafi outfits. And the Shia retaliation.

Please do not consider these people to be the representatives of either the Shias or the Sunnis. But, of course you will, and that is unfortunate.

[porus]

anajmi,

i have just stated that proof is not possible by you or by me. So, let us get on to other subjects, please.

[anajmi]

Are you justified in quarrelling about who is right? I don't think so.

Right, there is no justification in quarelling. However it is my responsibility to correct those that I see making a mistake. There is no harm in combining prayers, I do it 3 or 4 times a week. No one complains or threatens to throw me out. Now try doing that in a bohra mosque. Well, I don't mean you, cause your mental construct is different.

[anajmi]

My mental construct is that neither of you are following Islam exactly as Prophet. That is my mental construct. I have my books too. And I cannot prove it to you for the reasons outlined. We are not talking physics here.

One other thing, as you know and hate, I have never hesitated in quoting from the quran or the hadith. You shouldn't hesitate to quote from your books either. And then let me decide whether I want to believe in them or not.

[anajmi]

anajmi,

i have just stated that proof is not possible by you or by me. So, let us get on to other subjects, please.

porus,

Me not being able to produce proof should be acceptable, since I am a man of faith. In your case, it is unacceptable as you are not a man of faith.