Dawoodi Bohra Forum

- even though one of their legs is hanging in the grave -

On one hand you guys pray for shifa-e-kulli for our Maula (TUS) and on the other hand you speak so viciously about him in the most derogatory manner. Please abstain from such foul language...we are discussing our religion for God's sake, so please lets be more positive and not make such hurtful (and sinful) comments. If you want more and more people to come here, then you should show some compassion, and at the same time convey your point across in a mature and in a religious and respectful manner. Thanks.

I agree with Ijtihadi - and have been flogging this point for a long time - that as responsible reformists we have to be sensitive to the feelings of Bohras and their regard for the Sayedna. Calling him names and showing him disrespect is a complete turn off for the very people whom we want to attract and influence. Let's show our passion for principles, not our aversion to personalities.

Ghulam Mohammed is right, reformists praying for Sayedna's good health is a sign of humanity. This is what true compassion is and this is what Islam and Porphet's suunah teach us.

Now to the good surgeon's defence of the indefensible.

Al_MUizz wrote:When RasoolAllah SAW was on his death bed, he heard Abi Bakri leading the namaaz and he asked, "Who is praying in my Masjid without MY permission?" He got up with the help of Ali A.S. and went to the Masjid and FORCIBLY kicked Abi Bakri out. He led the final prayer sitting and all muslims prayed with him, sitting.

Before you can pass this off as a matter of tradition or principle, you have to make sure how authentic is this hadith and what is the context behind it. In his 23 years of prophethood you can only find just one incident where the Prophet is concerned about prayers being led without his permission. And even if we concede that he insisted on this, how can you equate this with the Dai's demand for permission. The Dai is not the Prophet. Besides, in the 1400 years of Islamic history and particularly Shia tradition there is no evidence or record of Imams claiming that competent Muslims cannot lead prayers without their permission. No dais ever claimed that nor is such a thing mentioned in Daim ul Islam. All this raza business started with Sayedna Taher Saifuddin.

Al-Muizz wrote:3. The Misaaq's importance was clearly demonstrated in Ghadir when The Prophet SAW said "To all whom I was the Moula now Ali is your Moula." EVERY Muslim had to give misaaq to RasoolAllah SAW, so then by inference the tradition of Misaaq existed since that time...............

This is totally out of context and shows you've no idea what reformists are talking about. Nobody is denying the importance and validity of Ghadeer e Khum. But in the Isamili/Fatimid tradition Misaaq is not a requirement and it is not mentioned in Daim ul Islam. Even so, reformists are not against misaaq per se. What we oppose is the distorted and doctored version of the misaaq being administered these days which makes bohras "slaves" of the dai. Such a thing is unheard of in the entire history of Islam. Misaaq is given to the Imam and never to the Dai. Reformists too give misaaq to kids who come of age - and it is more in the way of allegiance to the Imam and a covenant to practice Islam and its teachings.

Unfortunately, playing to the crowd is something I am not too good at. My personal opinions are in line with my beliefs and in line with my official position. I can't do, say and believe in different things at the same time. Praying for Syedna's health is not a sign of humanity but a sign of suckingupanity.

Al-Muizz wrote: EVERY Muslim had to give misaaq to RasoolAllah SAW, so then by inference the tradition of Misaaq existed since that time...............

Bro Al-Muizz,

Just read the translated version of misaq which is given to the dai by bohras of today and compare it with what Rasul Allah s.a.w. said. The translated copy is posted somewhere on one of the threads of this forum. I assure you that you will get a satisfactory answer to all your doubts.

anajmi wrote:Praying for Syedna's health is not a sign of humanity but a sign of suckingupanity.

Insaf bhai related the beautiful story of th Prophet Mohammed calling on the old Jewish lady who used to throw stones at him. Would you call that too "suckingupanity"? In my book that is real compassion. Jesus when crucified said of his tormentors "forgive them for they know no what they are doing." That is compassion - it is a quality of the heart that cannot be measured by logic, reason, intellect, practicality, common sense and other devices of the mind. It is an expression of true, enlightened love. I confess that I do not have in me - not yet at least - to feel and show such compassion but it gladdens my heart to know that my compatriots in Udaipur do. We have railed and raved against Sayedna's evil deeds but in the end he is a human being - we condemn his human actions but must honour and value his being, as we must of every being. Unfortunately, one cannot understand this by intellect or by reading Yusuf Ali.

Humsafar,

Try to understand the difference between the analogy and the fact. You are not in the prophet's position and neither is the Syedna the old lady throwing trash at you. And neither are you Jesus. Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad had faith in God and the hereafter, you have neither. The life of this earth was nothing for them. For people like you, the only thing is the life of this earth. Praying for the Syedna is in no way a sign of humanity. Humanity would be, if say for eg. a progressive doctor were to help cure Syedna. Do the progressives pray for the devil and call it humanity too? Or praying for Ariel Sharon who is also in a vegetable state in the hospital?

I take back whatever I have said earlier. It is being a good muslim to pray for the sake of another muslim even if that muslim is an oppressor. The prophet (saw) said that pray for your brother whether he be oppressed or whether he be the oppressor. For the oppressor, pray that he may give up his evil ways.

Good gesture brother Anajmi. This is what I was expecting from you being follower of Quran and sunnah. This is true Islam and to be followed by all.

Anajmi, good to see that you've seen the "light" and have the courage to admit it. My only plea is to allow this light to shine on everyone not just Muslims.

Humsafar,

The light is shining on everyone. Either you see it or you are blind. It is not my property to control.

anajmi wrote:Humsafar,
The light is shining on everyone. Either you see it or you are blind. It is not my property to control.

You got me there!!!