DB-A Personality Cult with Sinister Mind Control

[profastian]

You are comparing oranges with apples.
Nabi does not mean summoner. This is the problem. You just say things without refrences or authentication. instead of correcting your mistake you insist on committing another. In your zeal to elevate the status of Dai, you are ready to forge, fabricate, misture any thing. As I said, unlike you guys, I dont claim to have ownership of religion. It is between you and Allah.

Ok. so its between you and Allah. But then how do you know you are right? And what if you are not?

[Smart]

^
Doesn't your own logic apply to you? What if you are wrong? Speaking logically, even if accountability is wrong, that does not imply you are right. A little introspection on your part will help.

[profastian]

^
Doesn't your own logic apply to you? What if you are wrong? Speaking logically, even if accountability is wrong, that does not imply you are right. A little introspection on your part will help.

So do you. How do you know you are right?

Before studying who is right and wrong, one must agree on a premise.
And my premise is that God exists and in every age there must be a person (Sahab-e-Zaman) who represents God. I can't verify the existence of God(nobody could) but I can verify(to myself, others may not agree) (not scientifically but through philosophical introspection) that a Sahab-e-Zaman must exist among the people, and again (by philosophical introspection) i verify that Syedna Burhanuddin is (Sahib-e-Zaman).

Now accountability and I differ on the premise that a Sahib-e-Zaman must exist, but we agree on the existence of God.
But the existence of God, implies(according to the little understanding I have) the existence of Sahib-e-Zaman.
Because as God created Humanity and we (me and accountability(i think) ) believe that God wants humanity to recognize him(within their own limits).

God didn't built in his recognition within humans(hence atheists), so an external medium must be present for the recognition process.
That external medium were the Prophets till Mohammad and after that the medium was the Imam and the DAIs.
Whereas according to accountability the medium was the Quran and the Sunnah.
Now, I don't think the Quran and the Sunnah provide all answers(they did in their original form but many of the Hadiths have been fabricated and many are not reliable, i think everyone agrees on that) and they differ whereas the medium must be singular so as to avoid confusion.
Also i believe in the concept of Adal. What was so special about the people before and at the time of the Prophet, that they had a messenger of God among them whereas we were denied that opportunity. Isn't this against Adal.
Also i believe in the power of Ilm. Whoever can answer all my questions must be somehow divine. And the only source that answers (all) my questions is Syedna Burhanuddin to date. Whereas if accountability can't find the answer to any of his questions in Quran and Sunnah he will be stumped. He will just contend himself by saying that only Allah is aware of all mysteries.

[accountability]

profastian: Your post consits of only hearsay. You dont give any refrence or proof. You copy here what is taught to you in sabaq or jamia. I know either places do not provide any refrence. If you were in jamia, you would never have seen Daim ul Islam in book shape. You would have just heard the refrence. Becuase I know that in jamia, we dont have daim in book shape or printed version.
If you go through my posts I have never said that Quran and Hadiths provide all the soloutions for all times to come. Your theory of pairing Allah with one individual at all times has no intelictual basis. You cannot prove it by any refrence. In surah ikhlas Allah has categorically disassociated from any living being past present or future. You have done too assumptions on my behalf. I believe in bohra mustaali fatemi religion.
I have never questioned the basic tenets, but I am not ready to accept hearsay and expansionism without refrence. Because what you are saying has no refrence even in our theology. You cannot prove it.
Well Porus and Mubarak bhai will be more suited to comment on it.
Regardin Adel, it is also stretching too much. There are lot of things, that demands God's adel. There are so many people going hungry, there are so many people left uncured. There are too few with everything. Wouldn't you demand justice for them too.
You say that Quran and hadiths dont have answers for everything, but Dai has. I know for sure, neither have you asked him any question nor he gave you any answer. So your hype is just hype.
For a change, try to get answer for only one human misery. Why are so many people hungry.

[truebohra]

You are comparing oranges with apples.
Nabi does not mean summoner. This is the problem. You just say things without refrences or authentication. instead of correcting your mistake you insist on committing another. In your zeal to elevate the status of Dai, you are ready to forge, fabricate, misture any thing. As I said, unlike you guys, I dont claim to have ownership of religion. It is between you and Allah.

We all are slaves of Allah, Abd Allah. So this should also be shirk for you? Why Allah, All powerful needs slave??

[Al Zulfiqar]

We all are slaves of Allah, Abd Allah. So this should also be shirk for you? Why Allah, All powerful needs slave??

if you have not understood even this most basic premise of islam, how can you even call yrself a muslim, let alone truebohra???? perhaps they removed yr brain when they hynotised you during sabaks!!!

[truebohra]

We all are slaves of Allah, Abd Allah. So this should also be shirk for you? Why Allah, All powerful needs slave??

if you have not understood even this most basic premise of islam, how can you even call yrself a muslim, let alone truebohra???? perhaps they removed yr brain when they hynotised you during sabaks!!!

Az(gar),
Every time you hit keyboard you show your Idiosyncratic behavior and utter foolishness. This question is on you, and we know the answer. we just want to know UR answer. As you are equating each & every of our behaviour to shirk. Its only dependent on what yard stick you use. According to Wahabi form of Islam all the Shias (including you if you consider yourself one) are doing shirk. So we dont care what you or wahabi say..

Is that Clear you moron!!

[Smart]

This cult has so very thoroughly washed the brains of the abdes, that nothing remains. They are not amenable to logic and reason. The above post is a fine example. Spoken like a trueabdebohra!

[truebohra]

This cult has so very thoroughly washed the brains of the abdes, that nothing remains. They are not amenable to logic and reason. The above post is a fine example. Spoken like a trueabdebohra!

Ok, Please can you spew your logic & reason and explain why Proggys are not doing any Shirk? You can ask your brother Anajmi, MF and they can give you plenty of reasons. So it only depends on which side you are standing?
Hope now it is clear (Over)Smart....

[Smart]

^
I am not responsible for anybody else, including Anajmi or MF, nor am I answerable to them or for what they say. You can take it up with them.

I have posted the classical symptoms of how abdes are a personality cult. Let us stick to the topic. If you have anything to counter my earlier posts, please do so.

The truth does not depend upon where you or I stand. If you want to close your eyes and your mind, it is your call. Just goes to prove my claim that you have been so thoroughly brainwashed that logic and truth leave you flustered.

[israfild]

Dear All,

Assalamualaikum,

Having read the posts of here, the following comes to my mind:

Sahib Uz Zamaan & Submission to the will of Allah:

1.) Allah had sent forth Rasulallah (SAW) who is the last and the highest of Allahs messengers (AS) and always urged people to submit to the will of Allah. There has never been an instance that he (SAWS) or Maula Ali (AS) or any of our Imams (AS) said that submitting to me is submitting to Allah.
2.) Rasulallah (SAW) had said that he is leaving behind 2 things, and if we follow both of them we will be guided right. These are the Quran and His (SAW) Progeny (AS).
(Of course this is not a literal quote, it was what I understand of it).
3.) Therefore till Qayamah, there will be 2 things present in this world amongst us. A) Quran, B) Imam (AS).
4.) Our Imams (AS) had to go into hiding as there was oppression from the then rulers. However, to continue to convey the message of Allah to people, he (AS) appointed a Dai.
5.) Therefore the Sahib-Uz-Zaman is the Imam (AS) during his(AS) life span and then his son (AS) after him(AS) and so on. So you see, the Sahib-uz-zamaan (AS) is our beloved Imam-uz-zamaan (AS) and not the Dai.

Answers to all questions:

1. As far as my understanding goes, only Rasulallah (SAW), Maula Ali (AS), All of our Imams (AS) can provide answers to any and all questions that a human being can come up with and nobody else. Not even any earlier Rasools (AS) or their Vasi’s (RA) let alone any other mortal.
2. Allah says in the Quran that it has all the knowledge till Qayamah. How is that we can speak anything against the word of Allah and say that Quran does not provide all answers.

Mind Control / Mental Conditioning:

1. La Ikraha Fid-din Qattabaiyana Rushdo Minal Ghay. (apologies for spelling). There is no force, coercion in religion (Islam), The Truth has been separated from the False.
2. The above is the Ayah from the Quran which we all recite each and every day. So any form of mind control, behavioral control, mental conditioning, any form of compulsion to follow the rules, hadis, sunnah, fardh items of Islam is not allowed by our Creator (ALLAH).
3. Such force / coercios / compulsion, is against the logic that Allah says that this world is a test for you and your Nafs and Heaven and Hell are your Rewards, punishments respectively.

I hope i have delivered by logic and certain instances for which i do not need to provide any references(I am really bad at references).

[anajmi]

4.) Our Imams (AS) had to go into hiding as there was oppression from the then rulers. However, to continue to convey the message of Allah to people, he (AS) appointed a Dai.

The Imam had to go into hiding but the Dai didn't? So you are saying that the Dai was more courageous than the Imam? Those rulers are no longer there. Can the Imam come out of hiding now?

[israfild]

4.) Our Imams (AS) had to go into hiding as there was oppression from the then rulers. However, to continue to convey the message of Allah to people, he (AS) appointed a Dai.

The Imam had to go into hiding but the Dai didn't? So you are saying that the Dai was more courageous than the Imam? Those rulers are no longer there. Can the Imam come out of hiding now?

Dear anajmi,

Assalamulaiakum,

As far as my knowledge of the instances of the time is concerned, the Shias as a community including the leader (AS) were under oppression and threat of life. The hiding of the Imam (AS) was from the oppressors and not from the followers.

It is common sense that when a leader has a threat to life, he does not disclose his location and appoints some responsible deputy / deputies to convey his message and commands to his followers. This does not imply that the deputy is more brave than the leader but rather its a strategic decision.

As for your question of why is he (AS) / his progeny (AS) not out yet, i am unable to answer that as i do not have the information or knowledge of the same.

[anajmi]

It is common sense that when a leader has a threat to life, he does not disclose his location and appoints some responsible deputy / deputies to convey his message and commands to his followers. This does not imply that the deputy is more brave than the leader but rather its a strategic decision.

There is a difference between an ordinary leader and one who claims to be a messenger of Allah or Imam of Allah. A leader goes into hiding to save his own skin. Infact, I do not understand the logic of that. If the leader were to die fisabilillah, he would be setting a much better example than by going into hiding!! Allah has always come to the aid of all his messengers whose lives were threatened. None of them went into hiding.

[Aarif]

It is common sense that when a leader has a threat to life, he does not disclose his location and appoints some responsible deputy / deputies to convey his message and commands to his followers. This does not imply that the deputy is more brave than the leader but rather its a strategic decision.

There is a difference between an ordinary leader and one who claims to be a messenger of Allah or Imam of Allah. A leader goes into hiding to save his own skin. Infact, I do not understand the logic of that. If the leader were to die fisabilillah, he would be setting a much better example than by going into hiding!! Allah has always come to the aid of all his messengers whose lives were threatened. None of them went into hiding.

Anajmi,

NOT that I want to argue with you on this one but here is something interesting that I came accross which would make a good example for israfild's argument:

In 622, the year of Muhammad's migration to Yathrib (now Medina), Ali risked his life by sleeping in Muhammad's bed to impersonate him and thwart an assassination plot so that Muhammad could escape in safety.This night is called Laylat al-Mabit. According to some hadith, a verse was revealed about Ali concerning his sacrifice on the night of Hijra which says, "And among men is he who sells his nafs (self) in exchange for the pleasure of Allah"

Ali survived the plot, but risked his life again by staying in Mecca to carry out Muhammad's instructions: to restore to their owners all the goods and properties that had been entrusted to Muhammad for safekeeping. Ali then went to Medina with his mother, Muhammad's daughter Fatimah and two other women.

[porus]

They gladly invite death to keep the identity of their leader hidden. A clip from a Hollywood classic, Spartacus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_ou ... re=related

[anajmi]

Aarif,

I will let you figure out the difference between the prophet migrating to Madina and continuing his work and the Imam going into hiding and appointing a successor to do his work.

[anajmi]

According to some hadith, a verse was revealed about Ali concerning his sacrifice on the night of Hijra which says, "And among men is he who sells his nafs (self) in exchange for the pleasure of Allah"

According to the shia, a lot of verses refer to Hazrat Ali. I wouldn't give it much thought. This verse refers to all men who sell their nafs in exchange for the pleasure of Allah.

[Aarif]

Infact, I do not understand the logic of that. If the leader were to die fisabilillah, he would be setting a much better example than by going into hiding!!

I replied to your above qoute. Going by your logic prophet should have put his own life in danger to set a great example instead of putting Ali's life in danger... Now its a matter of convenience that he escaped so that he could spread Islam. We all have our reasons to suit our own needs...

[ghulam muhammed]

In 622, the year of Muhammad's migration to Yathrib (now Medina), Ali risked his life by sleeping in Muhammad's bed to impersonate him and thwart an assassination plot so that Muhammad could escape in safety.This night is called Laylat al-Mabit. According to some hadith, a verse was revealed about Ali concerning his sacrifice on the night of Hijra which says, "And among men is he who sells his nafs (self) in exchange for the pleasure of Allah"

Ali survived the plot, but risked his life again by staying in Mecca to carry out Muhammad's instructions: to restore to their owners all the goods and properties that had been entrusted to Muhammad for safekeeping. Ali then went to Medina with his mother, Muhammad's daughter Fatimah and two other women.

After the above incident when people asked Mola Ali (a.s.) as to wasnt he afraid of death which was almost sure to come. To this Mola Ali (a.s.) replied that he had the most peaceful sleep on that night as he was CONFIDENT that no harm would befall him because The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) had himself predicted so as He (s.a.w.) had instructed him to restore to their owners all the goods and properties that had been entrusted to the Prophet (s.a.w) for safekeeping. Hence this instruction was in itself a sign that no harm would befall him on that night. Such was the love and belief of Mola Ali (a.s.) towards the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and Allah (swt).

[anajmi]

Aarif,

You should not try to apply the "one size fits all" rule everywhere. Allah's messenger fought in wars along with his sahaba. Why do you think he did that? Why didn't he just let Hazrat Ali fight and he himself stay at home? Try to understand the hiqmat behind the acts of the prophet (saw) before applying your own personal logic.

[Aarif]

After the above incident when people asked Mola Ali (a.s.) as to wasnt he afraid of death which was almost sure to come. To this Mola Ali (a.s.) replied that he had the most peaceful sleep on that night as he was CONFIDENT that no harm would befall him because The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) had himself predicted so as He (s.a.w.) had instructed him to restore to their owners all the goods and properties that had been entrusted to the Prophet (s.a.w) for safekeeping. Hence this instruction was in itself a sign that no harm would befall him on that night. Such was the love and belief of Mola Ali (a.s.) towards the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and Allah (swt).

Br. GM,

You literally make me laugh. Obviously Ali would say this. After all he was the most loyal companian of prophet (pbuh).

BTW: I also remember a story where Hazrat Umar left the battle field to nurse his sick wife. I am not sure whether that was a great example set by a great leader. Just imagine every soldier, back home, has a sick wife, mother, father, uncle, aunty and so on. If all of them run away than who will fight?

[Aarif]

Try to understand the hiqmat behind the acts of the prophet (saw) before applying your own personal logic.

I definitely agree with you on that and also request you to follow the same. Not that I am arguing in favor of the Imams or anyone in particular but there are many such things in general about religion that we cannot comprehand and should leave it at that.

[anajmi]

You literally make me laugh. Obviously Ali would say this. After all he was the most loyal companian of prophet (pbuh).

So you believe Ali said this, but you also believe that he was just lying to show his loyalty to the prophet?

[anajmi]

I definitely agree with you on that and also request you to follow the same. Not that I am arguing in favor of the Imams or anyone in particular but there are many such things in general about religion that we cannot comprehand and should leave it at that.

Thank you for not commenting on the rest of my post.

[ghulam muhammed]

Br. GM,

You literally make me laugh. Obviously Ali would say this. After all he was the most loyal companian of prophet (pbuh).

Bro Aarif,

Either you lack a sense of humour or you have not understood the context in which I posted my comments because there is nothing laughable in it...... The comments of Mola Ali (a.s.) only proved beyond doubt his firm belief, trust and love for Allah (swt) and Rasul Allah (s.a.w.) and also his fearless and couragous self.

[Aarif]

Br. GM,

You literally make me laugh. Obviously Ali would say this. After all he was the most loyal companian of prophet (pbuh).

Bro Aarif,

Either you lack a sense of humour or you have not understood the context in which I posted my comments because there is nothing laughable in it...... The comments of Mola Ali (a.s.) only proved beyond doubt his firm belief, trust and love for Allah (swt) and Rasul Allah (s.a.w.) and also his fearless and couragous self.

Br. GM,
Please read my earlier posts.. They were on Pophet (pbuh) and not on Ali (a.s.). And as Anjami has rightly mentioned I would not want to argue anymore on this one. Case rested...

[Aarif]

So you believe Ali said this, but you also believe that he was just lying to show his loyalty to the prophet?

Anajmi,

As a believer will you ever say anything against Quran or prophet (pbuh) or Allah? And if you don't does that make you a liar in anyway? I don't think so and I hope these questions answers all your questions...

[anajmi]

Aarif

As a believer will you ever say anything against Quran or prophet (pbuh) or Allah? And if you don't does that make you a liar in anyway? I don't think so and I hope these questions answers all your questions...

Since you do not understand the difference between not saying anything against the Quran/Prophet/Allah and not lying, I have to conclude that you haven't understood much and I shouldn't be wasting my time arguing with you. But I have some time to waste.

[israfild]

Aarif

As a believer will you ever say anything against Quran or prophet (pbuh) or Allah? And if you don't does that make you a liar in anyway? I don't think so and I hope these questions answers all your questions...

Since you do not understand the difference between not saying anything against the Quran/Prophet/Allah and not lying, I have to conclude that you haven't understood much and I shouldn't be wasting my time arguing with you. But I have some time to waste.

Assalamualaikum,

Bro Aarif, GM, Thank you.

Bro anajmi,

Thank you for your comments.

Why do we speak dis-respectfully of a personality which the Shias beleive as either their 1st Imam (AS) / Vasi e Rasul / Valiullah and the Sunnis believe is the 4th Khalifa & Ameer-al-Mumeneen (RA). Let us unite on the point that he is the best of Mumeneen, the closest person to Rasulallah (SAW) and a role model to follow.

Also, I request all members that let us not deviate from the topic of the thread which is "DB-A Personality Cult with Sinister Mind Control". My sincere request is to keep your comments limited to the topic of the thread.

However, getting back to the topic,

The point that i wanted to drive through my post was that,
1.) According to the Shia (ithna ashari, or bohras or khoja shias etc) there has to be a Sahib-uz-zamaan which is none but the Imam-Uz-zamaan (AS).
2.) No body apart from the ones i mentioned earlier can answer all questions. NOBODY AT ALL
3.) Any form of control (or conditioning to make it sound less barbaric) whether it be mind, behavioral, clothes, appearance or anything else is prohibited in Islam. This i quoted from Quran so there should not be any contradictions here.