MF,
AB's question is:
Is there a non-deviant version of Islam other than Wahhabism?
Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
porus,
And will you be able to explain what exactly is wahabism? The Average Moron has no clue, maybe you do. And I would appreciate it if you can back up your claim from the quran or hadith, since Wahabism is a deviant form of Islam, that should be easy to do.
Average Moron,
Do you know of any ayah in the quran which requires a rape victim to produce 4 witnesses to prove that rape occured?
And will you be able to explain what exactly is wahabism? The Average Moron has no clue, maybe you do. And I would appreciate it if you can back up your claim from the quran or hadith, since Wahabism is a deviant form of Islam, that should be easy to do.
Average Moron,
Do you know of any ayah in the quran which requires a rape victim to produce 4 witnesses to prove that rape occured?
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
anajmi,
I am not going to play ping pong with you with Quran and Hadith. Those and history are subject to multiple interpretations.
As far as Wahhabism is concerned, there is enough material on the web both pro-Wahhabi and anti-Wahhabi; and you can make your own mind up after reading it.
My own take:
Great godfather of Wahhabism is Ibn Taymiyya. His teaching is founded upon his hatred of the Shia against whom he sanctioned violence. He teaches that God smiles on those who wrest power and bring tyranny and organization among the masses. This is why he almost condemns Ali and says that Muawiya and Yazid had God’s favor because they won against what the Shia call Ahlul Bayt. He condemns any attempt at esoteric interpretation of Quran and calls anyone except those who agree with him Kafirs.
Godfather of Wahhabism is Abdul Wahhab who was inspired by Ibn Taymiyya and he managed to persuade the ruling clans of Arabia to unleash violence against the Shia everywhere. This is continuing today throughout the world with Saudi blessing. Most of the 9/11 perpetrators were Wahhabis. They have also murdered innocents in Africa and Iraq by the hundreds. They say they will stop if they become Muslims after their fashion.
Apart from violence against the Shia, what do they teach? Theirs is a literal interpretation of Quran and hadith. How does that benefit anyone? Wait for the next post.
I am not going to play ping pong with you with Quran and Hadith. Those and history are subject to multiple interpretations.
As far as Wahhabism is concerned, there is enough material on the web both pro-Wahhabi and anti-Wahhabi; and you can make your own mind up after reading it.
My own take:
Great godfather of Wahhabism is Ibn Taymiyya. His teaching is founded upon his hatred of the Shia against whom he sanctioned violence. He teaches that God smiles on those who wrest power and bring tyranny and organization among the masses. This is why he almost condemns Ali and says that Muawiya and Yazid had God’s favor because they won against what the Shia call Ahlul Bayt. He condemns any attempt at esoteric interpretation of Quran and calls anyone except those who agree with him Kafirs.
Godfather of Wahhabism is Abdul Wahhab who was inspired by Ibn Taymiyya and he managed to persuade the ruling clans of Arabia to unleash violence against the Shia everywhere. This is continuing today throughout the world with Saudi blessing. Most of the 9/11 perpetrators were Wahhabis. They have also murdered innocents in Africa and Iraq by the hundreds. They say they will stop if they become Muslims after their fashion.
Apart from violence against the Shia, what do they teach? Theirs is a literal interpretation of Quran and hadith. How does that benefit anyone? Wait for the next post.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Wahhabis and other extremist Sunnis who continually peddle Quran and Hadith claim that Prophet is their model and their main claim is that they worship and act in the way he did.
They almost totally ignore the fact that Prophet’s actions followed from his being. While his actions are observable, his state of being is not accessible to us. There is a method of self-improvement called Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) whose main claim is that in order to duplicate the success of highly successful people, all you need to do is to model that person. NLP has not been wildly successful because it totally ignores the fact that actions follow from state of being.
This reminds me of a story I once read of a great Master and his student. Before commencing his lecture every morning, the Master would take his hat off and put it in the middle of his table. He would then take three deep breaths and start his lecture. When the Master lay dying, he told his student to be faithful to his teaching and he would not go astray. On the first day of his assignment as the new Master, he is asked if he has grasped the teaching completely. He replied. “Yes, of course. The first thing you do is take off your hat and put it in the middle of the table. Then you take three deep breaths and then read from the notes he prepared….”
Hadith peddlars are like the new Master. They can only be literal and like Wahhabis would soon destroy priceless works of Shia and Sufi Masters, whose insight they could learn from.
That begs the question. Is Prophet’s inner being accessible to anyone? Ali said once that Prophet gave him knowledge like a dove feeds its young. What the dove does is that it does not chew the seeds before feeding its young. Similarly, Ali’s instruction was not in any way re-interpretation from Prophet but direct knowledge. Shia claim spiritual connection of Imams to Prophets being and that the teaching of Islam is renewed continually by those who follow the Imam.
The Shia and Sufi attempt at taawil is in reality an exegesis not only of the model of the Prophet, as in his Sunna, but also of the spirit that moved him. Hadith peddlars only need to attempt a reading of one great Sufi or Shia Master’s commentary on the Quranic verses. There are many. Rumi, Ibn Arabi among Sufis and Shirazi among Ismailies.
Take a look at Sayedna Idris’s sublime esoteric interpretation of the fall of Adam. And then consider Wahhabi interpretation. You will learn more about yourself from esotericism then Wahhabis.
In short, Wahhabis have absolutely nothing to teach Muslims except arrogance and hatred.
They almost totally ignore the fact that Prophet’s actions followed from his being. While his actions are observable, his state of being is not accessible to us. There is a method of self-improvement called Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) whose main claim is that in order to duplicate the success of highly successful people, all you need to do is to model that person. NLP has not been wildly successful because it totally ignores the fact that actions follow from state of being.
This reminds me of a story I once read of a great Master and his student. Before commencing his lecture every morning, the Master would take his hat off and put it in the middle of his table. He would then take three deep breaths and start his lecture. When the Master lay dying, he told his student to be faithful to his teaching and he would not go astray. On the first day of his assignment as the new Master, he is asked if he has grasped the teaching completely. He replied. “Yes, of course. The first thing you do is take off your hat and put it in the middle of the table. Then you take three deep breaths and then read from the notes he prepared….”
Hadith peddlars are like the new Master. They can only be literal and like Wahhabis would soon destroy priceless works of Shia and Sufi Masters, whose insight they could learn from.
That begs the question. Is Prophet’s inner being accessible to anyone? Ali said once that Prophet gave him knowledge like a dove feeds its young. What the dove does is that it does not chew the seeds before feeding its young. Similarly, Ali’s instruction was not in any way re-interpretation from Prophet but direct knowledge. Shia claim spiritual connection of Imams to Prophets being and that the teaching of Islam is renewed continually by those who follow the Imam.
The Shia and Sufi attempt at taawil is in reality an exegesis not only of the model of the Prophet, as in his Sunna, but also of the spirit that moved him. Hadith peddlars only need to attempt a reading of one great Sufi or Shia Master’s commentary on the Quranic verses. There are many. Rumi, Ibn Arabi among Sufis and Shirazi among Ismailies.
Take a look at Sayedna Idris’s sublime esoteric interpretation of the fall of Adam. And then consider Wahhabi interpretation. You will learn more about yourself from esotericism then Wahhabis.
In short, Wahhabis have absolutely nothing to teach Muslims except arrogance and hatred.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
on one hand the muslims claim that islam is the greatest religion and then the wahabbis say that the prophet who brought this great islam was an ordinary man and should not be remembered at all,then why do you insist on following his quran leave that also and just follow the doctorine abdul wahab. this wahabbis and not the jews are the biggest enemies of islam
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Br. Porus
AS
Why do you complain about Sunni Scholars dislike of Shia when Esteemed Shia Scholars to two-bit Aamils curse and put down Companions and Sunnis every day. Ibn Taymiya revived interest in Hanbali's writings by calling for a return to original article of faith. He preached against Shia theology and Sufi Brotherhoods. What else was he going to say? Deviant ways are OK?
The Shia and Sufi attempt at taawil is in reality an exegesis not only of the model of the Prophet, as in his Sunna, but also of the spirit that moved him
"Tawil"! Last refuge of scoundrel!
profroag
AS Brother. I see you can put together a compete sentence!
Wasalaam
.
AS
Why do you complain about Sunni Scholars dislike of Shia when Esteemed Shia Scholars to two-bit Aamils curse and put down Companions and Sunnis every day. Ibn Taymiya revived interest in Hanbali's writings by calling for a return to original article of faith. He preached against Shia theology and Sufi Brotherhoods. What else was he going to say? Deviant ways are OK?
The Shia and Sufi attempt at taawil is in reality an exegesis not only of the model of the Prophet, as in his Sunna, but also of the spirit that moved him
"Tawil"! Last refuge of scoundrel!
profroag
AS Brother. I see you can put together a compete sentence!
Wasalaam
.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Br MF, it's obvious that Porus's nuanced, refined understanding of Islam will not penetrate your sledgehammer, "my way or the highway" approach to your creed. So let me put it this way, Islam would not have survived all these centuries without the diversity and flowering of different sects. Diversity is a law of nature. Look around you, domination of one type, trend, category, species or whatever can only spell disaster. All great empires found defeat in their own over-reach. Domination of man over this planet has brought it to the brink of extinction. Domination of western civilisation is destroying not only other civilisations but itself too. Domination of one plant type makes it vulnerable to disease, and destroys the soil. One could go on. And domination of Wahabism will obliterate Islam. Let a million Islams flourish, for that’s the best guarantee for its survival. Insist on Wahabism and you’re inevitably digging its grave.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Br. Humsafar
Same way if I told you that all that years of chest thumping is useless that also will not penetrate Shia brain.
To me Islam is simple religion. You do prayers five times a day as our prohet as shown us, (Your understanding of his way may be slightly different then mine but it does not matter) with Khusu and concentration. If you have time then study Qur'an and Sunnah of prophet. Then go about your business of sustaining your life and that of your family.
Now why complicate it with chest beating, visiting graves, going to Waaz, Forced Darshan and feet kissing. This complicated rules of who can lead prayer and who cannot. All these convoluted interpretation of Qur'an and when somebody questions that then you call it Tawil or refined understanding of Islam.
I am believing Muslim I pray five time for sure and Tahajjud (Qiam a Layal) most of time. I read Qur'an and listen to translation simultaneously.
Occasionally I go and listen to talk on Qur'an or Hadith. I do not pray to Muhammad, Ali or Hussain nor seek their help. Why complicate your religion when you do not have to?
Wasalaam
.
O’ that hurts.Br MF, it's obvious that Porus's nuanced, refined understanding of Islam will not penetrate your sledgehammer, "my way or the highway" approach to your creed
Same way if I told you that all that years of chest thumping is useless that also will not penetrate Shia brain.
To me Islam is simple religion. You do prayers five times a day as our prohet as shown us, (Your understanding of his way may be slightly different then mine but it does not matter) with Khusu and concentration. If you have time then study Qur'an and Sunnah of prophet. Then go about your business of sustaining your life and that of your family.
Now why complicate it with chest beating, visiting graves, going to Waaz, Forced Darshan and feet kissing. This complicated rules of who can lead prayer and who cannot. All these convoluted interpretation of Qur'an and when somebody questions that then you call it Tawil or refined understanding of Islam.
I am believing Muslim I pray five time for sure and Tahajjud (Qiam a Layal) most of time. I read Qur'an and listen to translation simultaneously.
Occasionally I go and listen to talk on Qur'an or Hadith. I do not pray to Muhammad, Ali or Hussain nor seek their help. Why complicate your religion when you do not have to?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Fixed.Originally posted by Muslim First:
Br. Humsafar
Then go about your business of hating and killing kafirs, sustaining your life and that of your family.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
MF,
Islam is not as simple as you make it out to be. Like Christianity, not only it makes false claims to universality but also comes with historical and cultural baggage which has condemned thinkers, scholars and mullas and believers to endless doctrinal battle. Imposing simplicity on it is a wahabi project, one skirmish of the battle. In any case, wouldn't it be better if you stuck to your "simple" Islam and let the chest-thumpers stick to theirs?
Islam is not as simple as you make it out to be. Like Christianity, not only it makes false claims to universality but also comes with historical and cultural baggage which has condemned thinkers, scholars and mullas and believers to endless doctrinal battle. Imposing simplicity on it is a wahabi project, one skirmish of the battle. In any case, wouldn't it be better if you stuck to your "simple" Islam and let the chest-thumpers stick to theirs?
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Progressive and Orto Bohras
Look at this Video 1 ( http://malumaat.com/videos/ashara1428/10thmoharram1.mpg )
What do you see and think?
Shining example of "Islam"
Wasalaam
Look at this Video 1 ( http://malumaat.com/videos/ashara1428/10thmoharram1.mpg )
What do you see and think?
Shining example of "Islam"
Wasalaam
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
MF,
Let's be honest here. You know very well that progressive bohras do not endorse this kind of hero-worship. In fact, one of our main criticisms is against the cult that surrounds the sayedna. The problems specific to bohras - ie corruption, lack of accountiblity, distortion of fatimid traditions, hero-worship etc. - are not the direct result of "deviant" interpretation of the Quran or Hadith (which is what we are taking about here). These cultural and social problems - and we are dealing with them as best as we can.
To cite bohra issues to prove your point is dishonest. What we are discussing here is whether the Quran and Hadith lend themselves to a single, one and only, absolute, literalist Islam as you claim or to contextual and principle-based interpretations. What some of us are saying is that the attempt to impose the Wahabi template on Islam is wrong, bigoted and ultimately unrealistic and destructive.
Let's be honest here. You know very well that progressive bohras do not endorse this kind of hero-worship. In fact, one of our main criticisms is against the cult that surrounds the sayedna. The problems specific to bohras - ie corruption, lack of accountiblity, distortion of fatimid traditions, hero-worship etc. - are not the direct result of "deviant" interpretation of the Quran or Hadith (which is what we are taking about here). These cultural and social problems - and we are dealing with them as best as we can.
To cite bohra issues to prove your point is dishonest. What we are discussing here is whether the Quran and Hadith lend themselves to a single, one and only, absolute, literalist Islam as you claim or to contextual and principle-based interpretations. What some of us are saying is that the attempt to impose the Wahabi template on Islam is wrong, bigoted and ultimately unrealistic and destructive.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
MF,
Look at this Video 1 ( http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... osque&only )
What do you see and think?
Shining example of "Wahabism"
Wasalaam
Look at this Video 1 ( http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... osque&only )
What do you see and think?
Shining example of "Wahabism"
Wasalaam
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
porus,
Nice lecture, I missed the point though. Are you saying that a person who prays like the prophet taught in his sunnah and Allah commanded in the quran is a wahabi? or are you saying that one should not pray as the prophet taught (as shown in the hadith) because one does not really know how the prophet taught, one only thinks that one knows how the prophet taught and that you, porus, knows that that is not how the prophet taught?
Nice lecture, I missed the point though. Are you saying that a person who prays like the prophet taught in his sunnah and Allah commanded in the quran is a wahabi? or are you saying that one should not pray as the prophet taught (as shown in the hadith) because one does not really know how the prophet taught, one only thinks that one knows how the prophet taught and that you, porus, knows that that is not how the prophet taught?
I couldn't help laughing after reading that crap. Know why? After all this, you actually don't believe that the prophet was the prophet or Ali was the Imam or that Allah is God. Go figure!!The Shia and Sufi attempt at taawil is in reality an exegesis not only of the model of the Prophet, as in his Sunna, but also of the spirit that moved him. Hadith peddlars only need to attempt a reading of one great Sufi or Shia Master’s commentary on the Quranic verses. There are many. Rumi, Ibn Arabi among Sufis and Shirazi among Ismailies.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Nice story. I am assuming that this is only a story and not fact. Cause no one is as stupid as this student, except people who assume others are.This reminds me of a story I once read of a great Master and his student. Before commencing his lecture every morning, the Master would take his hat off and put it in the middle of his table. He would then take three deep breaths and start his lecture. When the Master lay dying, he told his student to be faithful to his teaching and he would not go astray. On the first day of his assignment as the new Master, he is asked if he has grasped the teaching completely. He replied. “Yes, of course. The first thing you do is take off your hat and put it in the middle of the table. Then you take three deep breaths and then read from the notes he prepared….”
Here is the counter - first the master did not ask the student take off his hat and do whatever else the student actually did. The master said be faithful to his teaching and he would not go astray.
As far as Islam goes, the prophet said "Pray as you see me praying" - absolutely clear about what he wanted us to do. Interpretations of something that clear are only for the fitnatis. This is what the quran has to say -
033.036
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
PICKTHAL: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
SHAKIR: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
For those who actually believe in Islam, and you are not one of those, humans are not required for it to flourish. It is Allah's religion and Allah says in the quran, referring to the humans, that if you are not good enough then Allah will replace you with someone better.Let a million Islams flourish, for that’s the best guarantee for its survival. Insist on Wahabism and you’re inevitably digging its grave.
So, wahabis will neither cause the destruction of Islam nor will they be able to spread it without the will of Allah.
Second, the reason people like you want a million Islams to flourish is not for the sake of Islam but for your own personal agenda. As I have pointed out numerous times before, you want to use Islam to control just as your Syedna (and I am saying "your" Syedna because you accept his seat as valid) uses his Islam to control.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
047.038
YUSUFALI: Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in the Way of Allah: But among you are some that are niggardly. But any who are niggardly are so at the expense of their own souls. But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!
PICKTHAL: Lo! ye are those who are called to spend in the way of Allah, yet among you there are some who hoard. And as for him who hoardeth, he hoardeth only from his soul. And Allah is the Rich, and ye are the poor. And if ye turn away He will exchange you for some other folk, and they will not be the likes of you.
SHAKIR: Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.
033.036
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
PICKTHAL: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
SHAKIR: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
This ayah basically takes care of your millions of Islams!!
YUSUFALI: Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in the Way of Allah: But among you are some that are niggardly. But any who are niggardly are so at the expense of their own souls. But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!
PICKTHAL: Lo! ye are those who are called to spend in the way of Allah, yet among you there are some who hoard. And as for him who hoardeth, he hoardeth only from his soul. And Allah is the Rich, and ye are the poor. And if ye turn away He will exchange you for some other folk, and they will not be the likes of you.
SHAKIR: Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.
033.036
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
PICKTHAL: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
SHAKIR: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
This ayah basically takes care of your millions of Islams!!
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
anajmi,
I gave a response about Wahhabism at your request. Now get back to that discussion. Why does your (incl MF, Ibn Taimiyya, Abdul Wahhab) interpretation of Quran and Hadith entitle you to unleash violence against those who have a different view of of the same?
Are you saying you will not read or listen to any Shia or Sufi Master because I suggest it? Or are you like Umar, who will say "Quran and Hadith are enough for me because I know my reading and interpretation is the right one, and the only right, one, period."
By the way, why do you single out the Shia? What about Hindus and Christians who openly "blaspheme"? Do you quote Quran and Hadith on their forums too? Or like MF, you perhaps believe "lakum deenakum" applies to them and not to those who dare calling themselves Muslims and do not follow your brand of Islam, Islam of your Quran and your Hadith.
Will you join Sipah-e-Sahaba, a Wahhabi outfit, and declare all Shia and Sufi non-Muslims like they managed to do to Ahmadiyyas? And bar them from visiting Makka and Madina? After all, they follow your "truth", Quran and Sunna.
That is the logical conclusion to your beliefs because the Shia are not going to abandon their beliefs.
On the other hand, you could thank God for the diversity with which his message is interpreted and expressed and marvel at it.
I gave a response about Wahhabism at your request. Now get back to that discussion. Why does your (incl MF, Ibn Taimiyya, Abdul Wahhab) interpretation of Quran and Hadith entitle you to unleash violence against those who have a different view of of the same?
Are you saying you will not read or listen to any Shia or Sufi Master because I suggest it? Or are you like Umar, who will say "Quran and Hadith are enough for me because I know my reading and interpretation is the right one, and the only right, one, period."
By the way, why do you single out the Shia? What about Hindus and Christians who openly "blaspheme"? Do you quote Quran and Hadith on their forums too? Or like MF, you perhaps believe "lakum deenakum" applies to them and not to those who dare calling themselves Muslims and do not follow your brand of Islam, Islam of your Quran and your Hadith.
Will you join Sipah-e-Sahaba, a Wahhabi outfit, and declare all Shia and Sufi non-Muslims like they managed to do to Ahmadiyyas? And bar them from visiting Makka and Madina? After all, they follow your "truth", Quran and Sunna.
That is the logical conclusion to your beliefs because the Shia are not going to abandon their beliefs.
On the other hand, you could thank God for the diversity with which his message is interpreted and expressed and marvel at it.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
anajmi,
Have you comments on the Shia interpretation of 33:36?
Have you comments on the Shia interpretation of 33:36?
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
It does not and I have never condoned violence unless by those who are oppressed against the oppressor. Next time you accuse me of that kindly post my response along with your accusation cause I have said the same thing a million times.I gave a response about Wahhabism at your request. Now get back to that discussion. Why does your (incl MF, Ibn Taimiyya, Abdul Wahhab) interpretation of Quran and Hadith entitle you to unleash violence against those who have a different view of of the same?
Well, I cannot be like Umar, he was way better than I will ever be. As far as reading and listening to Shia or Sufi Master is concerned, I will neither listen to them because you suggest nor will I disregard their writings because you suggest. I was a shia for 30 years before I decided not to be just a shia but a Muslim first.Are you saying you will not read or listen to any Shia or Sufi Master because I suggest it? Or are you like Umar, who will say "Quran and Hadith are enough for me because I know my reading and interpretation is the right one, and the only right, one, period."
Just one question, have you ever listened to what the shia and sufi masters say? What do they say about the existence of Allah and heaven and hell? Do you believe them?
I don't care about the Hindus and Christians because they are not the ones corrupting Islam. They are out in the open. The more dangerous enemy is always the one within. And once again, there is no "my brand of Islam", there is only the quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Everything else is Taawil crap. When was the last time you visited a Hindu or a Christian site to advise them about the Shias and the Sufis?By the way, why do you single out the Shia? What about Hindus and Christians who openly "blaspheme"? Do you quote Quran and Hadith on their forums too? Or like MF, you perhaps believe "lakum deenakum" applies to them and not to those who dare calling themselves Muslims and do not follow your brand of Islam, Islam of your Quran and your Hadith.
If the Shias and Sufi adopt the same beliefs as the Ahmadiyyas or any other belief, which goes against the quran, I will declare them non-muslims and I don't need to join any outfit to do that. And if I have the power, yes I will bar them from visiting Mecca and Medina. Fortunately the Shias have not been completely corrupted by the likes of you. There is and always will be, hope.Will you join Sipah-e-Sahaba, a Wahhabi outfit, and declare all Shia and Sufi non-Muslims like they managed to do to Ahmadiyyas? And bar them from visiting Makka and Madina? After all, they follow your "truth", Quran and Sunna.
Shia beliefs currently do not make them non-muslims. You however are a non-muslim by your own cognizance, unfortunately even then you were able to enter mecca and medina.
Oh I thank God alright, I thank him for all the different interpretations that I have available to read from and how they all tell me the same thing over and over again. One has to be careful though, of interpretations written to fulfil a personal agenda - like the Taawil crap written by your Syedna. As long as one can recognize these, one will be on the correct path.
In your case however, there is diversity, but no God to thank!!
What is the shia interpretation of 33:36? If it is based on Taawil then you know that I will reject it, but nevertheless I would like to read it. If the interpretation is that Ali is his successor then so be it. Hazrat Ali is dead, so it does not matter anyway. I believe that Hazrat Ali was an Imam, a Khalifa and a great leader. So were Hazrat Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.
If it is to follow the prophet's progeny, then show me that by doing what I am doing, I am going against the teachings of the progeny of the prophet. And please, no taawil.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
You mentioned about the Wahabi Taliban blowing up the statues of Buddha. There is a backstory associated with that incident about how the Swedish government was willing to restore the statues (before they were blown up) and were willing to spend $15 million on the restoration. The Taliban asked them to for the money for the people of Afghanistan and they were refused. That is when the Taliban decided to blow them up. Of course you may decide to believe this story or not, I decided to believe in it.
See, people like you consider those dead statues more valuable than living people. Besides, it is a historical fact that the prophet destroyed statues that were being worshipped after he conquered Mecca.
See, people like you consider those dead statues more valuable than living people. Besides, it is a historical fact that the prophet destroyed statues that were being worshipped after he conquered Mecca.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
anajmi,
That was an excellent response. Congratulations. Never before on this board has bigotry been so eloquently expressed.
"Shia are the enemy within." Ibn Taimiyya and Abdul Wahhab have a new disciple. Shias watch out. He will decide when you have transgressed the limits of "his" religion.
That was an excellent response. Congratulations. Never before on this board has bigotry been so eloquently expressed.
"Shia are the enemy within." Ibn Taimiyya and Abdul Wahhab have a new disciple. Shias watch out. He will decide when you have transgressed the limits of "his" religion.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Actually, I was referring to you and if you prefer to call yourself a shia then yes you are the enemy within. If all Shias are like you then yes shias are the enemy within. Fortunately, shias are not like you, they believe in Allah, his quran and his prophet. You, however, do not.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Oh; that's okay then. The Shia can sleep soundly.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Yes they sure can. Take a look at the people that I have been debating on this board and you will get a fairly good idea of the people that I have decided to deprive of sleep.
These are the ones who are pretending to be shias but are not, they hide amongst the other bohras, go to their jamans, but they have exposed their reality very well on this board.
These are the ones who are pretending to be shias but are not, they hide amongst the other bohras, go to their jamans, but they have exposed their reality very well on this board.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
anajmi, it's pretty clear that humans are not good enough. I hope Allah replaces them with someone better.It is Allah's religion and Allah says in the quran, referring to the humans, that if you are not good enough then Allah will replace you with someone better.
"Personal agenda"? That's news to me. Pray tell me what is my personal agenda, and what do I want to "control".Second, the reason people like you want a million Islams to flourish is not for the sake of Islam but for your own personal agenda...
By the way, you've not yet responded to the question: What do you make of this ayat: 004.089? Would you take it at face value, and do what is commanded of you or interpret it in context?
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
anajmi,
While you are pondering over a reply to Humsafar about 4:89 -and I will avoid you in person just in case you follow the ayat to the letter-, I would be interested in what you make of 2:25, Allah's promise to you.
Your take on 2:25, not taawil, mind you.
One translator of Quran has suggested your 'pure' mate in paradise will be without menses, stools, urine etc.
While you are pondering over a reply to Humsafar about 4:89 -and I will avoid you in person just in case you follow the ayat to the letter-, I would be interested in what you make of 2:25, Allah's promise to you.
Your take on 2:25, not taawil, mind you.
One translator of Quran has suggested your 'pure' mate in paradise will be without menses, stools, urine etc.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Some humans are not good enough. There is still hope for mankind.anajmi, it's pretty clear that humans are not good enough.
I don't know what your personal agenda is. But have you heard of a truthful person allowing a million falsehoods to flourish without his own interest at stake? Besides for the sake of all muslims, it would be better to have one united sect instead of a million divided ones. Diversity is ok as far as culture is concerned for eg, the afghanis prefer to fire guns at their weddings and the americans prefer to kill afghanis at their weddings, the Indians probably prefer something less subtle.
And I did reply to the question of that ayah in the thread that you asked the question. It is not this thread. In my reply I asked you a question too and haven't heard a reply. By the way when you read 4:89, you should read 4:90 too, but people like you read the quran precisely for what you are doing over here - fitna.
Now let me get to porus, who also doesn't find it necessary to answer my questions but for some reason finds it necessary for me to answer his!! And then he accuses me of bigotry.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
porus,
You ask about my take on 2:25
002.025
YUSUFALI: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
You are obviously looking for my take on "pure". Do you consider stools/urine/menses to be impurities? If you don't then you should see a doctor. If you do, then since in heaven the mates will be pure - and another way to put that is - free of impurities, then they will be just that - free of impurities. Of course those three aren't the only impurities in humans.
You ask about my take on 2:25
002.025
YUSUFALI: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
You are obviously looking for my take on "pure". Do you consider stools/urine/menses to be impurities? If you don't then you should see a doctor. If you do, then since in heaven the mates will be pure - and another way to put that is - free of impurities, then they will be just that - free of impurities. Of course those three aren't the only impurities in humans.
Re: Who Will Give Up Criticizing Other Sects ?
Let me give you an analogy - gold in its purest form is not malleable. One has to add some percentage of impurities to be able to mold it in the form of jewellery. Now wouldn't it be nice to be able to mold pure gold? That is what you get in heaven.