Inviting young Bohris 35 years and below

[humanbeing]

HB, you keep referring to "MOST BOHRA YOUNGSTERS" in almost every post of yours. i am not going to say anything about this except that maybe you are living in some part of the world where MOST BOHRA YOUNGSTERS are like this.

All i can tell you is come to Mumbai. you will see an altogether picture here. Yes, places like Surat, Jamnagar, Ahmedabad etc will probably conform to your POV, so that means that it is more a function of the geographical society that they live in rather than a mindset.

Seriously, take up my offer. let me take you to Bhendi Bazaar too, and you will be surprised to see that the Bohra Youth is more than you think, or claim it to be!

Hi MN

Thanks for your offer ! I mean it and I appreciate it, I look forward to meet you when I visit Mumbai. I may not be a very travelled person, but I have lived in various parts of India (Pune, Dahod, Banswara, Ratlam) I have travelled frequently to Mumbai, Surat and Galiyakot. My upbringing has been in orthodox environment. Cities I mentioned are from region where bohraism is a majority with dominant influence on way of life. Currently in middle east, where crowd is majorly from the regions I mentioned.

Coming to Mumbai / Pune locals, there is a distinct attitude of Maharashtrian Bohra, they do not like Bohra from Waagad (Rajasthani), consider them brute and rural in attitude and conduct. Having lived in these areas and being a observer by hobby. I have experienced latent attitude and prejudices within our community too (it’s a human nature, no blame game). Bohra in Mumbai are found in extremes, from fanatically devoted (bhendi bazaar and surroundings) to regularly liberal average bohra to complete strayed drinking / smoking / doping yet respected bohras (bandra, powai, santa cruz)

I have visited and lived in places like, Bandra, Kurla, Mazgaon, Bhendi Bazar, Bhainder. I have a fair idea of observing bohra in action (majaalis, ziyarats, muharram and ramadan). Just for a demo ; Visit Raudat Tahera and observe bohra brothers, you will get a hint of what I m saying.

My POVs are not blanketed on every bohra, any perception expressed is always subjective. There is a universal saying “All fingers are not same”

[humanbeing]

Repeated !! how I dont know ! Thus Deleted

[Muslim First]

IYER, WHO IS ALSO A HINDU, WOULD NEVER PRAY IN A GURUDWARA OR A JAIN DERASSAR,

You have no knowledge of Hinduism.

Jainism and Shikhism is entirely different religions.

[Muslim First]

Are Bohra allowed to stand shoulder to shoulder with another muslim and pray ? IM NOT SURE OF THIS ANSWER. BUT IF YOU ASK ME, I DONT SEE WHY NOT. INFACT, DURING RAMZAN, THERE WAS A SUNNI MUSLIM WHO HAD BORROWED MY MASALLA BUT HE EITHER PURPOSELY OR UNINTENTIONALLY, DID NOT PRAY WITH ME. I WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO DO SO BUT HE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS NOT READY. AGAIN, LIKE I SAID, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN UNINTENTIONAL

We frequently visit close Bohri friend and they do the same. I have offered to lead or follow him in Namaaz and he has refused both. Raza is problem for him.

Bold letter is cute but it is considered like SHOUTING.

[Muslim First]

Sikhism, yes, i agree. Probably gave a wrong analogy. Let me change it to a Jain Derrasar or a Kali Maa ka Mandir
P.S. I am married to a Hindu, so i think you should remember that

Very dear friend of mine is Jain. Even though they inter marry it is entierly different.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jainism ( /ˈdʒeɪnɪzəm/; Sanskrit: जैनधर्म - Jainadharma, Tamil: சமணம் - Samaṇam), is an Indian religion that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings. Its philosophy and practice emphasize the necessity of self-effort to move the soul towards divine consciousness and liberation. Any soul that has conquered its own inner enemies and achieved the state of supreme being is called a jina ("conqueror" or "victor"). The ultimate status of these perfect souls is called siddha. Ancient texts also refer to Jainism as shramana dharma (self-reliant) or the "path of the niganthas" (those without attachments or aversions).

Jain doctrine teaches that Jainism has always existed and will always exist,[2][3][4] although historians date the foundation of the organized or present form of Jainism to sometime between the 9th and the 6th century BC.[5][6] Like most ancient Indian religions, Jainism has its roots from the Indus Valley Civilization, reflecting native spirituality prior to the Indo-Aryan migration into India.[7][8][9] Other scholars suggested the shramana traditions were separate and contemporaneous with Indo-Aryan religious practices of the historical Vedic religion.[10]

Contemporary Jainism is a small but influential religious minority with as many as 4.2 million followers in India,[11] and successful growing immigrant communities in North America, Western Europe, the Far East, Australia and elsewhere.[12] Jains have significantly influenced and contributed to ethical, political and economic spheres in India. Jains have an ancient tradition of scholarship and have the highest degree of literacy for a religious community in India.[13][14] Jain libraries are the oldest in the country.[15]

do you see any mention of Hinduism?
Married to Hindu! Good for you. that does not make you scholar in Hinduism. Like Muslims most of Hindus do not know much about their religion.

[SBM]

y mustafanalwalla on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:32 am

humanbeing wrote:

profastian wrote:And what is real Islam. What aspect of real Islam does a common bohra not know about?



Are Bohra allowed to pray in masjid other than thiers ? - I DONT KNOW WHY NOT. I WAS GOING TO RAISE THIS QUESTION IN RAMZAN, BUT NEVER GOT AROUND TO DOING IT. I WAS WONDERING IF INSTEAD OF PRAYING IN THE OFFICE, SHOULD I GO TO THE SUNNI MOSQUE AROUND THE CORNER. I THINK THE REASON HERE IS MORE DUE TO DIFFERING BELIEF SETS AND THEOLOGIES THAN ANYTHING ELSE. FOR INSTANCE, AN IYER, WHO IS ALSO A HINDU, WOULD NEVER PRAY IN A GURUDWARA OR A JAIN DERASSAR, EVEN THOUGHH THEY ARE ALL FOLLOWERS OF HINDUISM

Br. Nalwala
I do not know if you have to been to Hajj or Umrah but it is an unfortunate sight when Adhan is called in both Haram Masaajids and as all Muslims are walking in to to Salah together, DBs are going out to their Center or Rabaat to do Salah their. When I went for Hajj, I did not go with DB group but I did see my local Aamil who told me that we can not pray behind any one who has no RAZA but do the arkan which is just to show off they you are praying if you are unable to get out, Again we have been taught to be actors by our leader whether it is to pray with other Muslims or "RUWA JEYO MOH BANWO AGAR TAMARE RUWO NA AWAYE"
As far as Hinduism is concerned, that is why Islam i superior that it does not distinguish when it comes to pray, ALL THE MUSLIMS REGARDLESS OF THEIR SCHOOL OF THOUGHT HAVE ONE ALLAH, ONE RASOOL, ONE KAABA AND ONE QURAN
May Allah guide us all to the right path

[Muslim First]

haa haa haa, touche
And yes sir, although it might not be mentioned here, Jains too are a sub-sect of Hinduism

Tell that to a knowledgable Jain.
You do not know when to call it quits.

[SBM]

Does Bohra know, Maatam is expression of grief and not form of prayer to Allah ? YES WE DO. THEN WHY MAATAM AFTER NAMAAZ? I DONT KNOW. IS IT WRONG? I DONT KNOW.]NOWHERE IN THE QURAAN HAS ANYONE POINTED OUT THAT IT IS WRONG

Br. Nalwala
Nowhere in Quran it has pointed out how to pray either.so it some one prays while lying down or without proper clothing , would you do it or does it make sense? Quran does not point many things and that is why you follow Sunnah of Prophet and the will of Ijtima. Did Prophet or Ali, Imam Hassan or Imam Hussain did Maatam. Did any of the DBs did Maatam after Namaz before 52nd Dai, did any DB prayed 2 Rakat Namaz for any Dai before 52
Did DB do 100 Darees or 100 hours of Maatam for Ta Qiyamat long life for 52nd

[Muslim First]

Br SBM

Like many Muslims Br Nal does not know Islam very well.

[humanbeing]

MN !

I m not confronting you to defend Mumbai Bohras., I m expressing my thoughts over your opinion of me that - limited exposure to bohra behaviour I talk about. I was trying to convey, I have seen similar attitude, behaviour pattern, prejudices and practices in several bohra dominated regions I have travelled. So my exposure to bohra world is not some exceptional scanty bohra populace, but from places which form dominant bohra societies..

It Doesn’t matter; Surat, Ahmedabad, Mumbai or Pune. Neither my emphasis is on you or your area buddies or acquaintances which you are defending.

Raudat Tahera is visited by 1000s of bohras from region all over the world, see the standard practice in some (as you don’t like me saying most) bohras how they perform ziyarat from entrance to exit. A common sense will see there is thin line between worshipping and expression of respect. Actions are of worshipping the Qabr / Qubbah / Doors .. intention, only Allah knows best !

Dont get me wrong now, but i think that your othrodox, strict upbringing is one of the reasons of your attitude now. It is your id rebelling against years of coditioning and suppression.

Yes MN ! you are right, I have been bought up in orthodoxed upbrining. Intellectually it is stifling !
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Non Bohra Masjid Prayers : I DONT KNOW WHY NOT. I WAS GOING TO RAISE THIS QUESTION IN RAMZAN, BUT NEVER GOT AROUND TO DOING IT. I WAS WONDERING IF INSTEAD OF PRAYING IN THE OFFICE, SHOULD I GO TO THE SUNNI MOSQUE AROUND THE CORNER.

I m wondering if you answered my query or extended it !

Non Bohra Masjid Prayers : I THINK THE REASON HERE IS MORE DUE TO DIFFERING BELIEF SETS AND THEOLOGIES THAN ANYTHING ELSE. FOR INSTANCE, AN IYER, WHO IS ALSO A HINDU, WOULD NEVER PRAY IN A GURUDWARA OR A JAIN DERASSAR, EVEN THOUGHH THEY ARE ALL FOLLOWERS OF HINDUISM

Fundamentally, Monotheistic religions promote common places of worship, so giving example a iyer, sikh, jain does not fit into the scope of our discussion.

Praying with Non Bohra Muslims : NOT SURE OF THIS ANSWER. BUT IF YOU ASK ME, I DONT SEE WHY NOT. INFACT, DURING RAMZAN, THERE WAS A SUNNI MUSLIM WHO HAD BORROWED MY MASALLA BUT HE EITHER PURPOSELY OR UNINTENTIONALLY, DID NOT PRAY WITH ME. I WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO DO SO BUT HE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS NOT READY. AGAIN, LIKE I SAID, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN UNINTENTIONAL

Are you sure / not sure of what ? whether bohra can / shall pray next to another non bohra muslim or not ! from your answer I assume, personally you don’t mind, but dear we are talking macro level. What you experienced with one muslim is a personal incident. But as a philosophy / rule / law what does bohra priest preach is under discussion here.

Restriction to Shia Majlis : REALLY? WE OFTEN GO TO ZAINABIA HALL IN BHENDI BAZAAR IN MUHARRAM AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF BOHRIS THERE WALKING IN AND OUT IN OPEN VIEW!!!!! CARE TO EXPLAIN THAT??????

MN, I think you may have missed the Farmaan, Fatwa passed from headquarters, Bohra Mumin don’t have Raza to attend Shia Majjalis. This is not region specific but farmaan from sayedna saheb. I m surprised you are not aware of this farmaan.

Human Worshipping : YES WE DO. WE DO NOT WORSHIP OUR DAI. WE RESPECT, LOVE AND ADORE HIM. YES THEIR ARE PEOPLE WHO KISS HIS CAR TYRES AND ALL, AND ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT THEY ARE A MISGUIDED FEW

It really depends on your understanding of what defines worshipping. Actions speaks louder than words. What you are saying is; actions are similar to that of worshipping but intention is expression of respect. Isn’t it ?? Such misguided few shall be guided on observation ! if not by you or me, then Haq na saheb shall take the effort of correcting such misguided behaviour ! is it happening ?

Namaz Space Sale : YES WE DO, BUT THIS IS AN UNFORTUNATE TRUTH. THERE ARE SOME UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE WHO WILL DO ANYTHING FOR A QUICK BUCK, WHICH IS WHY, GIVEN THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF MONEY, ONE CAN JUMP THE QUEUES AT BALAJI TEMPLE TOO

This unfortunate truth is supported by leadership under the raza of ghaib-na-janaar sayedna saheb and mansoos mufaddal bhaisaheb. Unscrupulous people who are doing anything to make a quick buck is relatives and acquiatances of Qasre-Ali and Baite Zainee.

What happens at Balaji temple is out of scope in our discussion.

Concept of Maatam : YES WE DO. THEN WHY MAATAM AFTER NAMAAZ? I DONT KNOW. IS IT WRONG? I DONT KNOW. NOWHERE IN THE QURAAN HAS ANYONE POINTED OUT THAT IT IS WRONG

Are you again extending my query ? Thanks !

I think you did not understand the essence of my query. I don’t have objection with timing of the maatam, it’s the intention and purpose of maatam which is being diluted. MN, really !! after pages of discussion on this issue. You are expressing such naïve justifications.

Maatam is expression of Grief, not a prayer !! this is my point. If you are honestly grieving on Imam Hussain after every namaaz, do maatam with marsiya as long as you feel the grief.

Access to Heaven : ABSOLUTELY. UNFORTUNATELY EVERY RELIGION SAYS THAT EXCEPT THEIR FOLLOWERS, ALL OTHERS WILL GO TO HELL, SO I GUESS IT IS STATUS QUO. INFACT IF YOU DIG A LITTLE IN THE HISTORY, YOU WILL NOTICE THAT I WAS SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF MY VOICE, WITH CLEAR LOGICAL REASONING WHY NO ONE IS DESTINED FOR HELL. ASK ANAJMI, HE WILL VOUCH FOR IT

Yes MN ! thankfully we agree on one point ! ..2nd part of your observation is another argument from other religious purists !

Bohra Theory of Kabaa : UMMM... ACTUALLY I ONLY KNEW ABOUT THE PHYSICAL ONE

Wel you need to attend and listen to bayaans and muzakeraat more attentively. You will discover a theory of Physical Qibla and Nafs Qibla (Dai-uz-zaman).

Hunting of Animals : YES. AND MY OPINIONS ARE QUITE CLEAR ON THAT

Heartening ! now we agree on 2 points !! thanks !! but lot of bohra has no idea about such restriction, and those whose conscience says its wrong are keeping quiet in guilt of blasphemy.

[profastian]

Br SBM

Like many Muslims Br Nal does not know Islam very well.

Look who is talking
A person who does not have any idea about Islam. A moronic ignoramus.

[SBM]

Br. Nalwala
I hope you will comment on my posting regarding your comments on "Are Bohris allowed to pray in Sunni Masjid"as well as doing "Maatam after Namaz is not mentioned in Quran" I am sure everyone who likes your post viz ProF-ProG-MVD-Adam-AR can chime in too

[humanbeing]

MN

Any discussion is not with you, but rather on topics of concern. I don’t have issues with your or anyone’s personal choices of belief. Intentions of the argument are to the world at large affecting everyone of us.

One or many muslim person denying to pray with another is an isolated case of personal choice. But a fatwa, farmaan, philosophy, rule, diktat, law, instruction not to pray with muslims is concern under discussion. For a fact we know, that our community leaders do not allow / encourage praying in non bohra masjid.

If we probe further with a muslim denying to pray with us, he may give his personal reasons (preached prejudice or choice), but for a fact we know in our hearts, bohra refuse because one sure reason is; they don’t have raza from the priestly leaders of our community. They may be some / few / many Non Bohra Mullas and Moulvis advocating not to pray with bohra muslims, they too are wrong in their position to preach such a philosophy. But in our community ALL Mullas and Moulvis preach not to pray with non bohra muslims as a practice.

One example is, we see muslims come to bohra masjids to pray but bohra don’t go to non bohra masjids, even if a masjid is right outside their door. Another disturbing example is faking namaaz in Haram Shareef (Kabaa). Although we pray in Imaamat, but to Allah we are individually responsible for quality of our namaaz, Faking a namaaz to Allah we are not fooling Saudis or Non Bohras around, but fooling ourselves and making a fool of ourselves in front of Allah and strengthening manipulative grip of priestly class.

What Other religions (Monotheistic or Polytheistic) is not in scope of our discussion, A) because orthodox bohras downgrade and criticize practices of non bohra. Sad hypocritical irony is; financial influence in another religion is criticized and ridiculed and similar actions are promoted in our own community. B) practices under discussion in another religion, they too are deemed wrong, immoral and unfair by ethical thinkers.

[sallu_baba]

MN

Any discussion is not with you, but rather on topics of concern. I don’t have issues with your or anyone’s personal choices of belief. Intentions of the argument are to the world at large affecting everyone of us.

One or many muslim person denying to pray with another is an isolated case of personal choice. But a fatwa, farmaan, philosophy, rule, diktat, law, instruction not to pray with muslims is concern under discussion. For a fact we know, that our community leaders do not allow / encourage praying in non bohra masjid.

If we probe further with a muslim denying to pray with us, he may give his personal reasons (preached prejudice or choice), but for a fact we know in our hearts, bohra refuse because one sure reason is; they don’t have raza from the priestly leaders of our community. They may be some / few / many Non Bohra Mullas and Moulvis advocating not to pray with bohra muslims, they too are wrong in their position to preach such a philosophy. But in our community ALL Mullas and Moulvis preach not to pray with non bohra muslims as a practice.

One example is, we see muslims come to bohra masjids to pray but bohra don’t go to non bohra masjids, even if a masjid is right outside their door. Another disturbing example is faking namaaz in Haram Shareef (Kabaa). Although we pray in Imaamat, but to Allah we are individually responsible for quality of our namaaz, Faking a namaaz to Allah we are not fooling Saudis or Non Bohras around, but fooling ourselves and making a fool of ourselves in front of Allah and strengthening manipulative grip of priestly class.

What Other religions (Monotheistic or Polytheistic) is not in scope of our discussion, A) because orthodox bohras downgrade and criticize practices of non bohra. Sad hypocritical irony is; financial influence in another religion is criticized and ridiculed and similar actions are promoted in our own community. B) practices under discussion in another religion, they too are deemed wrong, immoral and unfair by ethical thinkers.

A very thoughtful post by you Bro HB

[humanbeing]

Sallu Baba

Thanks for your appreciation.
(you seem to be a fan of Salman Khan ?)
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MN

I don’t wish to continue tiresome discussion on obvious and simple issues. Please re read postings to get better understanding. Lets not make it a pain for others to read.

[humanbeing]

OMG ! MN calm down ! .. allow me to continue…

I suggest you re-read the postings too because what you suggest is neither obvious nor simple.

Which part of the discussion is not obvious neither simple ?

• Bohra Priest farman not to pray in non bohra masjid : It’s a famous, obvious and age old fatwa issued from sayedna saheb disseminated via network of Amils, Muallims and Sheikhs through bayaans, sabaks and discussions. This farman is not retaliatory but a planned diktat to prevent bohra from interacting with Mainstream muslims.

• Non Bohra praying in Bohra Masjids : I have personally seen non bohra muslims come to bohra masjid and pray in IMAMAT of bohra priest. I have observed in Pune and Kuwait. Non Bohra has come to attend prayers, Also I have seen Shia attending Muharram Majalis in bohra setup. I have even seen how bohra brothers see in curiosity and surprise odd persons in non SKT. No Amil or Ayan stopped them, asked them to leave or instructed to attend masjid / majalis in white SKT !!
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MN ! I m not competing with you ! I mentioned earlier, my intention is to present a debative point. I m open minded and intelligent enough to see goodness and exploitation in scheme of things. I have presented my opinions and I have changed, if convinced.

[profastian]

1. You say that it is a farmaan that we are to not pray in a non-Bohra mosque. I for one have never heard of that. But if what you say is true, then i would have to agree that it is wrong and i for one WOULD insist on knowing why
BROTHERS PROGTICIDE, ADAM AND PROFASTIAN, This question is to you. Is it true? If so, what is the reason for it?

Surely bohras can pray in a Sunni mosque. But they cannot pray behind Sunni Imams as they(Imams) do not have raza. Same is the case with Sunni Maulvis performing Nikkah. We do not consider their Nikah as valid, as they do not have raza, although they may recite the same Dua during the Nikah. Any non bohra can pray in a bohra mosque, they can pray behind our Imam ift hey want to or they can pray seperately. I have seen numerous cases of both and in many countries and mosques and there haven't ever been any problem. As to why there is no raza, it is obvious. Would you pray behind a person who loves Umar? Would you pray behind a person who considers as his leader someone who murdered you mother?

[humanbeing]

In that case, Can a bohra pray in Imamat of Shia Imam ?

[profastian]

In that case, Can a bohra pray in Imamat of Shia Imam ?

No, they do not believe in the Imam that we believe in(Imam-uz-zaman), so how can we pray behind their Imam(mosque). After all, the mosque Imam is like a proxy to Imam-uz-zaman and Imam is the foundation of Iman, and there is no Salat without Iman.

[level_headed]

humanbeing,
You claim (correctly) to observe people quite a lot when you go to the Bohra gatherings. I think you spend too much time in observing the folks around you but do not spend too much time or do not listen attentively.
My reasoning - not praying behind Sunnis or anybody without raza - you do not need to ask these questions on the forum. This is said multiple times during bayans and waaz's.
1. When the Prophet(PBUH) was on his deathbed, Bilal came to the Prophets house and asked for who had raza to lead the prayers. Aisha falsely said raza was with Abu Bakr. Prophet (PBUH) heard Abu Bakr's voice from his bed, he went to the Masjid using Maulana Ali's support and pulled Abu Bakr out from the mehraab and led the namaaz himself (he was so weak that he led the namaaz sitting). That is what Bohras believe in - you cannot pray namaaz behind anybody - has to have raza

2. During the time of Umar, Umar led namaaz in state of janaabat. He realized it later and said so. Maulana Ali was in the masjid and supposedly he was also there in the prayers. His answer - again I may not be reproducing this correctly - all of YOU including Umar will have to pray namaaz again. He did not include himself in the YOU. This was to show that Maulana Ali had actually prayed fajr namaaz at home and 'taqiyat na maate' - he came to the masjid and prayed namaaz behind Umar

Sorry for being condescending

[humanbeing]

Namaz is a secular and consistent practice amongst Muslims. Namaz is offered to Allah with an allegiance that, There is only one god and Muhammad is his messenger. This forms the basis of a Muslim’s Imaan.

Imam in any masjid stands with intention of facilitating Namaaz. I don’t wish to get into divisive debates and focus on topic of discussion.

After all, the mosque Imam is like a proxy to Imam-uz-zaman

This is something new I m hearing !! I m not sure, but you are mistaken in your understanding. Although word Imam means “Ahead” or “Lead” in my understanding (Hey guys, I shall be corrected if I m wrong). The mosque Imam is a learned person who is in charge of the masjid and takes care of facilitating Namaaz, In mainstream muslims, its any person who volunteers to lead namaaz in a small informal congregation. But a Masjid / Namaz Imam may not be comparable with Imam-uz-Zaman, these are 2 different concepts !

[humanbeing]

HI Level Headed

Don’t be sorry if you are correcting me for a wrong statement or in good faith. No offense taken.

I think you spend too much time in observing the folks around you but do not spend too much time or do not listen attentively.

Observing Bohra brothers isn’t too distracting, They make it very obvious themselves. However your advise is better required for MN, who is majorly unaware of obvious and basic farmans since many years.

Although I don’t wish to get into divisive debates, but in order to clear my doubts too, I wish to express my query:

1. When the Prophet(PBUH) was on his deathbed, Bilal came to the Prophets house and asked for who had raza to lead the prayers. Aisha falsely said raza was with Abu Bakr. Prophet (PBUH) heard Abu Bakr's voice from his bed, he went to the Masjid using Maulana Ali's support and pulled Abu Bakr out from the mehraab and led the namaaz himself (he was so weak that he led the namaaz sitting). That is what Bohras believe in - you cannot pray namaaz behind anybody - has to have raza

Is this incident substantiated by mainstream muslims ? However understanding this incident as it is, considering culture, society and mentality at the times of prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr being associate friend of Prophet and Bilal being a servant had the authority of pulling down Abu bakr from Mehraab and offer prayers, and abu bakr wouldn’t have objected. If prophet Muhammad had objection with Abu Bakr, why did he consider him as his friend at all and allow him other Islamic leadership rights. Prophet Muhammad is an influential persona then and now. Whatever Prophet says muslims accepts it undoubtedly.

2. During the time of Umar, Umar led namaaz in state of janaabat. He realized it later and said so. Maulana Ali was in the masjid and supposedly he was also there in the prayers. His answer - again I may not be reproducing this correctly - all of YOU including Umar will have to pray namaaz again. He did not include himself in the YOU. This was to show that Maulana Ali had actually prayed fajr namaaz at home and 'taqiyat na maate' - he came to the masjid and prayed namaaz behind Umar

Yes ! I have heard this Rivayat in bayaans, According to the Rivayat, Maulana Ali had already performed Fajr Namaz at home ?? If he prayed fajr Namaz at home, he could simply state that to the congregation why he prayed double ? for “Taqiyat na Maate” !! why would Maula Ali need taqiyat in those times ?? Morever Maula Ali had an authority of educating / commanding Umar and people to peform namaaz again, why would he need to exercise any sort of Taqiyat !!

A version I have heard of this incident is : Umar lead a namaaz in condition of Janabat and when he realized his mistake he informed and advised his congregation not to worry about it, as he would individually perform namaaz again, and namaz of people in the congregaton is accepted. When the word reached Maula Ali, he objected to this solution and advised / educated umar and others in the congregation to perform namaaz all over again. Maula Ali doesn’t have to exercise taqiyat, he is brave enough to speak his mind

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This is the state of confusion in our own community, where bohras hear different versions from different amils and sometimes different versions from same amil. Then how can we authenticate that the stories mentioned are true enough to conclude present day theories and strategies.

[anajmi]

Both the stories recited by level_headed are nothing more than Shia fairy tales. The concept of raza has no sanction from the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). I do not understand why the prophet (saw) couldn't just say that you need raza for salaah. Doesn't the Dai say that? Does he act it out? Not one single shia fairy tale command can be directly found in the words of the prophet (saw). You have to go around in circles to find these!!

The ruling of Imamat prayer is the if the Imam led the prayer while being impure, the prayers of his followers will be accepted. Only the Imam will have to redo his prayers and those who knew that the Imam was impure. That means only Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Umar would have to repeat their prayers. Because apparently, according to the shia fairy tale, Hazrat Ali knew about the impurity (which is why he prayed at home before coming) and still did nothing to stop the prayer. Infact, the cause of every person's error is on his head!!

[humanbeing]

Examples and Incidents from where Priestly class infer their theories and policies conveniently interpret those aspects of the stories which suits their strategies. We can have a different learning from the same stories which would very well disturb scheme of things for sinister minds.

I can very well accept the inference that, everyone seeked Raza from prophet to exercise Islamic rituals and rights, Islam being a new religion and Prophet being its preacher people came to him for guidance and prophet acknowledged his rayyet’s concerns, A revolutionary idea was to liberate everyone from clutches of ignorance and slavery. He allowed a slave and master equal rights and respect in the society. Abolishing latent prejudices of caste system.

Prophet spread knowledge, he did not maintained secrecy, infact he bought all secrets out, he put his life and conduct on display for others to emulate. He lived by strict discipline, austerity and humilty.

From the incident of Umar and Maula Ali, Umar made a mistake and Maula Ali corrected him, he did not excommunicated him !!

Islam is spreading wide and far, governance and control of Raza concentrated in the hands of a single human doesn’t make sense in bigger / wide scheme of Islam. Its few handful bohras who can be regulated by raza system, but at macro, much wider and humongous presence of Islam at world level, it would be impossible for every Imam to come and seek raza from sayedna saheb in order to validate Namaaz.

[ghulam muhammed]

It is crystal clear for the world at large that the present day bohraism is a cult in the garb of Islam. It allows only those practices which are sanctioned by the dai even if the same are not in line with the Prophetic teachings and in order to do so they invent, distort and fabricate pieces of history and literature, they are not allowed to read even their own holy book 'daimul islam' lest it spills the beans. Have you seen their most revered book daimul islam being sold in any bohra book shops ? The abdes are not allowed to read any hadiths or Quranic translations other then the one approved by the dai, this way bohras are deprived of a comparative study of religion due to which they remain ignorant and are unable to enter into any debate with Islamic scholars of other sects. Leave aside the average bohra, have you seen any bohra aalim, zada or even the dai debating with other islamic scholars on a public platform ? If the dai cannot even have an open debate with other sectarian leaders then how do you expect him to carry on his primary duty of a dai which is to invite people to his faith ?

Hence this hurdle in the name of 'raza' is delibarately created to keep a watchful eye on his followers. Raza for prayers, raza for haj, raza for akika, raza for majlis, raza for nikah, raza for janaza namaz, the list is exhaustive. Raza also has the financial benefits by way of salams. The time is not far when bohras will have to seek raza to answer natures call. In short, the very freedom of an individual is blatantly snatched away and he is subjected to a tyranic rule even in democratic countries like India.

[level_headed]

Humanbeing - This is found among mainstream Muslims too. Abu Bakr was removed by the Prophet and not by Bilal. My contention is that even in times of the Prophet(PBUH) there was the concept of raza to lead prayers. Since the raza did not come from the Prophet but was given by Ayesha, the Prophet himself went in his state of extreme illness and removed Abu Bakr from the mehraab.
Maulana Ali practiced taqiyat after the Prophet's death. His house was surrounded and almost burnt down, he was dragged in front of Abu Bakr with a rope, he was forced to give bayat (with literally a sword on his face). He needed taqiyaat only in those times. When Umar pronounced that he would repeat his namaz and others did not have to, Maulana Ali told the people the correct fiqh. There are countless instances where Maulana Ali spoke up against the incorrect rulings.
I am sorry to say that You talk about being a Bohra but your comments show that you have doubts all the way upto Maulana Ali.
I am highlighting your comments
"Abu bakr being associate friend of Prophet"
"If prophet Muhammad had objection with Abu Bakr, why did he consider him as his friend at all and allow him other Islamic leadership rights"
"Maula Ali doesn’t have to exercise taqiyat, he is brave enough to speak his mind"
- forget about a Bohra - show this to an Ithna Athari Shia - and they will not consider you one of their own

There are no different versions from different Amils. Most of these bayans are from Sharhul Akhbaar or Daimul Islam.

[Muslim First]

humanbeing,
You claim (correctly) to observe people quite a lot when you go to the Bohra gatherings. I think you spend too much time in observing the folks around you but do not spend too much time or do not listen attentively.
My reasoning - not praying behind Sunnis or anybody without raza - you do not need to ask these questions on the forum. This is said multiple times during bayans and waaz's.
1. When the Prophet(PBUH) was on his deathbed, Bilal came to the Prophets house and asked for who had raza to lead the prayers. Aisha falsely said raza was with Abu Bakr. Prophet (PBUH) heard Abu Bakr's voice from his bed, he went to the Masjid using Maulana Ali's support and pulled Abu Bakr out from the mehraab and led the namaaz himself (he was so weak that he led the namaaz sitting). That is what Bohras believe in - you cannot pray namaaz behind anybody - has to have raza

2. During the time of Umar, Umar led namaaz in state of janaabat. He realized it later and said so. Maulana Ali was in the masjid and supposedly he was also there in the prayers. His answer - again I may not be reproducing this correctly - all of YOU including Umar will have to pray namaaz again. He did not include himself in the YOU. This was to show that Maulana Ali had actually prayed fajr namaaz at home and 'taqiyat na maate' - he came to the masjid and prayed namaaz behind Umar

Sorry for being condescending

Brother Humanbeing
I am not here to argue with educated ignorant of the Kothar and its followers. I am here to present accounts which are recorded in books and Ahadit and believed by majority of Ummah,

Here is what I transcribed (errors are mine) from sub heading “Abu Bakr leads people in Prayers” Starting from page 284. This is first paragraph on page 286 of the Sirat_un_Nabi by Ibn Ishaq. Free down load of pdf is available here
http://freedownload.is/pdf/seeratun-nabi-in-english
Also there are related Ahadith here
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... number=647

Also according to Ibn Isaq, Abu Bakr Ibn Abdulla ibn Abi Mulakia told him that when Monday (on which the Prophet died ) came, the Prophet pubh went out to perform morning prayers with his head banded while Abu Bakr was leading people in prayers, when Prophet emerged people’s attention was disrupted. Realizing that people would not behave like that unless Prophet had come. Abu Bakr withdrew from his place to give way to Prophet to lead in prayers but He (pubh) brought him back to his place saying “ lead people in prayers”. The Prophet sat on right side of the Abu Bakr performing the prayers in sitting position. Having ended the prayers, He addressed people in such a loud voice that he could be heard outside the Mosque. “O people! The Fire is blazed, and the Fitna are coming the waves of dusky night! By Allah, you can lay nothing to my charge. I have surely made lawful only what Qur’an has made lawful and have prohibited what the Qur’an has prohibited”.

BTW read whole chapter called "THE END OF BLESSED JOURNY FROM WORLDLY LIFE" starting page 275

[Muslim First]

Br Humanbeing
here are Ahadith regarding qualifications of Imam (prayer leader)
See if you can find one of qualification is Raza from some phony authority.

From:
http://www.aaiil.org/text/had/manhad/ch8had.shtml

1 Abu Musa said,
The Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, fell ill and his illness became severe; so he said:
"Tell Abu Bakr that he should lead the prayer for the people." 1 . . . So the messenger came to him, and he (Abu Bakr) led the prayer for the people in the lifetime of the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be on him. (B. 10 : 46.)
1 While alive, the Holy Prophet himself acted as imam and led the prayers. During his last illness he became too weak to leave his bed and to go out to pray in congregation; so he directed that Abu Bakr should lead the prayers. This hadith, along with the Holy Prophet's practice, is conclusive proof that the man who held the highest place of honour in the community on account of his righteousness acted as imam, for after the Holy Prophet Abu Bakr was admittedly the most excellent of his followers.

2 Abu Mas`ud said,
The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, said:
"The man who knows most the Book of Allah shall act as imam of a people; 2 and if there are persons equal in their knowledge of the Qur'an, then he who has greater knowledge of the Sunnah; and if they are equal in their knowledge of the Sunnah, then he who is first in hijrah; and if they are equal in hijrah,3 then he who is older in years; and a man shall not lead another in prayer in the place where he (the latter) is in authority,4 and no one shall occupy the place of honour in another man's house except with his permission." (M-Msh. 4 : 26.)
2 Evidently what is meant is excellence in knowledge of the Holy Qur'an, not merely its recitation.

3 Precedence in hijrah was an indication of precedence in sacrifices for Islam.
4 Thus the master of the house or the imam of a particular mosque has a greater right to lead the prayers there that a mere visitor.

3 Ibn `Abbas said,
The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, said:
"The most virtuous among you shall deliver the adhan, and those having most knowledge of the Qur'an shall act as imams."5 (AD-Msh. 4 : 26.)
5 The mu'adhdhin and the imam, the two office-bearers of the mosque, are thus to be chosen for their moral excellence and knowledge of the Qur'an.

4 Ibn `Umar said,
When the first emigrants came to `Usbah, a place in Quba, before the coming of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, Salim, the slave of Abu Hudhaifah, used to act as their imam, and he had the greatest knowledge of the Qur'an. 6 (B. 10 : 54)
6 A slave became the imam because he excelled others in knowledge.

5 `Ubaid Allah reported that,
He entered upon `Uthman ibn `Affan and he was then besieged (by the rebels). He said, Thou art the imam of the people and to thee has happened what thou seest, and the rebel imam leads our prayers and we consider this to be a sin. He said, Prayer is the best of things which people do; so when people do a good work, do thou also do the good with them, and when they do evil, do thou shun their evil. (B. 10 : 56.)

6 Abu Hurairah said,
The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, said:
"Jihad is incumbent on you under every commander whether he is virtuous or wicked, even though he be guilty of heinous sins; and prayer is incumbent on you behind every Muslim whether he is virtuous or wicked, even though he be guilty of heinous sins;7 and the holding of a (funeral) service on every Muslim is incumbent whether he is virtuous or wicked, even though he be guilty of heinous sins." (AD-Msh. 4 : 26.)
7 No one can be chosen as imam for carrying on jihad or for leading prayers unless he possesses the requisite qualifications, and, therefore, a man who is guilty of heinous sins cannot be chosen for either purpose. But if such a man is chosen by mistake or if he commits such a sin after he has been chosen, he must be followed so long as he is not removed from that office, as no organization can be maintained otherwise.

[humanbeing]

I am sorry to say that You talk about being a Bohra but your comments show that you have doubts all the way upto Maulana Ali.

Please keep your manipulative opinion to yourself about me. My doubts are with corrupt present clergy, how they twist stories from life of Maula Ali to suit their own policies.

I am highlighting your comments
"Abu bakr being associate friend of Prophet"
"If prophet Muhammad had objection with Abu Bakr, why did he consider him as his friend at all and allow him other Islamic leadership rights"

What is your point by highlighting this quotes from my post ?

"Maula Ali doesn’t have to exercise taqiyat, he is brave enough to speak his mind"
- forget about a Bohra - show this to an Ithna Athari Shia - and they will not consider you one of their own

I mentioned Maula Ali is brave enough to speak his mind, No where in my entire posting I have mentioned anything derogatory about Maula Ali. Level headed, please dont stoop to such level of frustration that you throw baseless pot shots at others without common sense or credible point.

Why are you mentioning Ithna Ashari ?? Bohra has denounced everyone who doesn’t acknowledge their views.

There are no different versions from different Amils. Most of these bayans are from Sharhul Akhbaar or Daimul Islam.

Again either an innocent ignorance or shrewd denial. I have stated one example how your and my version of Maula Ali / Umar incident differed. We both have heard this incident from the Amils of our respective areas.

I can give you another example, where Shahadaat of Imam Hussain is altered by same orator, infact Last Muharram, Shehzada Malekul Ashtar was presiding for Muharram, Its not a surprise that Shahadat of Imam Hussain is repeated many a times in a waaz, I have heard different versions from same shehzada over days of Muharram.
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Raza has to be associated with knowledge and capability of a person to deliver what he/she has been chosen / opted for. Islam is not about few lacs bohras concentrated in few pockets controlled by Ejamat card. If Raza for Namaaz is that important factor to validate and Raza in present time can only come from Sayedna Saheb and now Mansoos Mufaddal bhai saaheb, then what do you say about Millions of Muslims, and Million of Masjids which are facilitating Namaaz all over the world, with no idea or knowledge of sayedna saheb and such condition.

Do you conclude that, majority million muslims are praying namaaz in vain and only bohra namaaz is pristine of all, do you conclude that, Allah is not accepting their namaaz because its not permitted by raza of mortal human from earth.

[humanbeing]

HI MF
Thanks for sharing insight into topic under debate. I wish to refrain from divisive debates between Shia-Sunni. I dislike fragmentation and segregation of Human Spirit at any level, be it in Islam or other religions. Any side we choose, its filled with hatred.