Moula Cares

[anajmi]

In that case, may be we shouldn't consider others to be dumb that they need to be spoon fed evidence. Present them the evidence that convinced you to smarten up and trust them to be smart too.

[Grayson]

Spoon feeding makes us no better than the opposition. Information gathering does.
Eye-opening is what'll get things going. That's the kicker. However it's achieved.

[Humsafar]

Grayson,
I do understand that some kind of proof can go a long way in strengthening our case and cause. But your rabid insistence on it seems to me like more of an idle fuss. I'm not sure what kind of abdes you are trying to convince with these proofs. Those who cannot see anything wrong with old men bowing to a pre-teen runt or those who cannot see anything wrong with the opulence of the zadaas? Do you think such brain dead abdes will be swayed by a few pieces of paper? I can see that most of these "wrongs" have been internalised as "normal". If that is the case then do you think a few documentary proofs is going to exorcise them of their illusions?
And even if proof is produced do you think that will change their minds and they will become enlightened? The two enquiry commissions in the 70s and 80s produced enough proof and depositions of Kothars wrongdoings. What was kothar's response to that? They dismissed as the lies of dushmano. No matter what evidence you bring forward, it is going to be dismissed as lies, and is not going make an iota of difference to abdes whose minds are closed, who are not interested in what you have to say.
If you're targetting fence-sitters, then it means that they already have doubts in their mind. There is enough evidence available - without the proof of title deed to the Amassador Hotel - to convince them that the Kothar is an evil, unIslamic, oppressive cult.
Again, it would be good to have proof for such allegations as the ownership of Ambassador Hotel, selling liqour, Nafisa Ali affair etc. - but these are not important issues, although some people throw them into the mix for some spice and fun. These are mere distractions. The truth or otherwise of these allegations has no bearing on the validity of the reformist cause.
The core issues are accountability and jamat autonomy. Abdes know that tons and tons of money is collected from the community. They need no proof for that. Where does all that money go? This is the first question that must cross the mind of any normal person. The second question should be, why do they need so much money? And the third, why should I give it to them. To think and ask these question one needs no proof. Only a modicum of sense and a few grey cells.
Abdes have no excuse for remaining dumb, stupid, ignorant and slavish. Proof or no proof. And if you think some piddly proof about some petty scandals is going to change their minds then you too, I'm afraid, are a bit delusional.

[Grayson]

Humsafar,

I rabidly insist on such and rightfully so.

This isn’t the 70s or 80s (thank God) where information solely comes from the top; truth is more transparent than ever. My words target the fence sitters (and those unafraid of honesty), to start them going a little. People need to talk about these issues (and silence/dumbstrike) the fanatics to a point where they question themselves internally. In a way, it’s what’s happened to me.

All these little things such as incriminating the top brass, is crucial as the system as a whole is woven together. You see the human flaws and hypocrisy of the mid-level bhaisahebs taking your moola, and your mumbles turn to actual voices. Let’s not pretend they’re separable from the core issues; things like this matter. I(/we) can challenge accountability based on known specific events.

An “abde” such as myself on my own? Who the hell am I to challenge the machinations of Kothar without hard proof or support? I’ll be castrated, sidelined and bitter like everyone else (worse, it'll affect my family). Remaining silent and complaining about issues amongst themselves and on forums.

You’re an out and about progressive, I’m still in the orthodox fold. Considering that, my delusions aren’t (completely) unfounded as I’m fighting for gradual change within. I realize faults and seek to rectify it by spreading realization as much as I can (a win with whomever it means something; no losses to speak of). The alternative means giving up on the loved ones around me which I don’t have the guts to do.

We have no excuses; but at this point, with a look towards gradual change, I don’t think there’s any proof that’s unneeded. Not from my point of view.

[Al Zulfiqar]

i have a most humble suggestion, which i hope will be taken in the constructive spirit in which it is being offered.

why dont grayson and bohra spring join forces and work together on their agenda of reforms? rarely if ever has such zeal, motivation and fire been seen on this forum as is being displayed by these 2 members.

after grayson meticuluosly and painstakingly collects proofs of the wrongdoings of the last 2 syedna's and the evil kothar to put together a compendium of their misdeeds and tyranny, bohra spring can take that liturgy of immoral, unethical and unislamic travesties to the community to convince them to overthrow the dai and his parasite family and put together a machinery to democratically elect a 'people's choice' dai. working thus in tandem, keeping in mind the adage, "2 heads are better than one", they can together achieve tremendous and concrete results as their goals are common although their roads are different.

both grayson and bohra spring have been displaying unbridled enthusiasm and passion for their individual projects. i say, whats stopping them from working as a team? one delivers the jabs and hooks, while the other delivers the final knockout punch?

if they announce their partnership openly on this forum, i am sure many like-minded members will be emboldened to join in.

[Grayson]

All jest aside, I'm up for it.

Sadly I have no substance of my own and will make no progress without actual contributions from others.

I'm surprised this hasn't been done before.

[anajmi]

Sadly I have no substance of my own and will make no progress without actual contributions from others.

earlier you said

I've felt personal progress; would like to share that others.

How did you make this progress without any substance?

[Grayson]

Substance in regards to events significant to the community as a whole. Personal progress mainly came from reflective self-thinking from constant exposure (and conversation) on differing views. I've had some good friends.

[anajmi]

And these good friends didn't give you anything of substance? And yet you were able to make progress? But the other bohras are too dumb is what you are saying? Maybe your friends should start working with them as well.

[Grayson]

And these good friends didn't give you anything of substance? And yet you were able to make progress? But the other bohras are too dumb is what you are saying? Maybe your friends should start working with them as well.

They're not Bohra. I was lucky to get exposure others may not have. No one's too dumb (neither am I smart). We just see things differently. And in regards to what (I came to believe) is wrong in faith and society, I'll push with it to share what I believe to be right.

[anajmi]

That is what this board is doing. It is giving the same exposure that you have been lucky to receive. If you were able to achieve progress without any hard evidence or substantial proof and being no smarter than the others, then I think the others can too.

[Grayson]

But isn't reason better than spite? Reason that actually relates with those that hold such opposite views? I personally feel more people get pushed out (or they don't even give it a chance), then pulled in when they see abuse splattered around. No proof. Just a hunch.

[anajmi]

It is hard to believe that bohras get pushed out because of a little abuse. This is an anonymous forum where you have just as much right to abuse. Besides bohras should be used to being abused. Don't they get that day in and day out from their kothari masters?

[Grayson]

But the 'abuse' from our 'masters' is perceived as 'sharaf' that we were conditioned to accept from the time of birth.
Harsh words against our Dai (and indirectly our identity) are too personal of a nature that most get salty over.
The existence of this forum among most orthodox is pretty much an open secret; people skim, see hate, constantly hear how it's filled with dushmans from the people payed to say it and don't stick around enough to take words that matter to heart and mind.
The aforementioned example is sponsored (unknowingly) by two of my friends, who told me this is pretty much what they did when we last talked about this forum and related issues.

[anajmi]

But the 'abuse' from our 'masters' is perceived as 'sharaf' that we were conditioned to accept from the time of birth.

Which obviously means that your definition of abuse is skewed. How is it possible to accept proof when the acceptance of this proof is considered abuse? Let me get back to the proof that I provided originally about how your Dai abuses the Quran.

This is what the bohra misaq says

The Dai shall raise among you or degrade among you persons as he likes. He shall gift to and shall deprive persons as he pleases. The Dai shall reward persons and shall punish them in his discretion. The Dai shall smile upon or shall break his wrath on whomsoever he thinks fit. You shall be pleased in that which Dai is pleased....Say yes.

This is what the Quran says

3:26 SAY: "O God, Lord of all dominion! Thou grantest dominion unto whom Thou willest, and takest away dominion from whom Thou willest; and Thou exaltest whom Thou willest, and abasest whom Thou willest. In Thy hand is all good. Verily, Thou hast the power to will anything.

Now, according to you, abdes might consider this as abuse and run from this forum. Well, in that case, let them get more "sharaf" from their masters.

[Grayson]

According to me, the religious appeal (and the outright display of ignorance it triggers) is not an issue most are willing to face.
The question of that being right or wrong is irrelevant if there's no one (that actually needs to think of these things) to debate it with in an appropriate way.
Humanistic qualities (my opinion) is a common ground everyone could start with. It's what I've personally found effective in conversations.

[anajmi]

According to me, the religious appeal (and the outright display of ignorance it triggers) is not an issue most are willing to face.

Precisely the reason why the kothar has been able to subjugate the abdes.

The Quran says (I shouldn't be quoting the Quran since this is not something that you are willing to face)

2:269 He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.

14:52 Here is a Message for mankind: Let them take warning therefrom, and let them know that He is (no other than) One Allah. let men of understanding take heed.

38:29 (Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee, full of blessings, that they may mediate on its Signs, and that men of understanding may receive admonition.

Look at the emphasis on "men of understanding" time and time again. The kothar has ensured that the abdes are no longer men of understanding!!

[Grayson]

Sadly agreed. Let's appeal through methods that may be more successful. Progress persists gradually. I'm not unwilling to face it. I'm glad I've had, and am further. Thanks for that.

[anajmi]

Sadly, one of those methods is to just wait for unbearable humiliation. Then, even a little "proof" will be enough.

[Grayson]

Whatever get's one going is fine with me.

[anajmi]

But that doesn't mean it IS fine, right?

[Grayson]

An eventual path towards (or atleast attempt of) some sort of enlightenment?
The intentions are pretty good in themselves. Let's leave God to judge, rather than extrapolate our fates ourselves.

[anajmi]

One path is to wait for unbearable humiliation. One path is to study the truth about the religion you claim to be following to enlighten your here and your hereafter. And you have chosen which path for your fellow abdes? And that too with good intentions I might add!!

[Grayson]

I do not choose it on their behalf. I attempt to challenge their view using methods I find attractive. It's realistic to me and if successful, the change is gradual.
I'd like to think a merciful God could appreciate good intentions. Forgive me for not knowing if he does.

[anajmi]

I do not choose it on their behalf.

Actually, you have. You have already decided what will and what won't work with the abdes. The Quran won't work and titles and deeds of the Ambassador hotel will!! After rejecting the message of God, you appeal to the mercy of God!!

[Grayson]

No; the only thing I've chosen is my method of tackling this situation. From how I realistically (and your case, wrongly) see it.

[anajmi]

So you are saying that getting unbearably humiliated is the realistic approach towards tackling this situation. I am glad I am not an abde with you giving me advise!!

[Grayson]

It was humiliating to me to learn how un-islamic some of our practices are. From your point of view, I'm still likely damned, but I'm generally satisfied with my (continual) self-progress. I don't advise so much as offer my view and how I choose to approach it.

[anajmi]

Then let me offer my own view. Your approach is dependent upon human artifacts. Human artifacts are what have landed abdes in the situation that they are in right now. It won't work. It is time to go back to the divine artifact!! I have given some samples that should be sufficient to make those with a little bit of sense to start thinking.

[Grayson]

If it's landed us here, same appeals could get us out. An atheist becomes what he is through human artifacts. Only the divine can show him the way. Praise Jebus.