Dawoodi Bohra Forum

FMHassanali,
I'd appreciate if Kansas spoke for himself, without having you to intervene on his behalf. Thanks for your note, anyway. Of course, I get it that he is speaking from the point of view of Bohras who take Dai's claim to infallibility as a given. But what you are not getting, despite the Socratic method of reasoning and all that, is that thinking Bohras who have some idea of our history cannot and should not allow the Dai and his flock to get away with that claim. Kansas' contention is that it is OK if Bohras believe that, let's leave them to their own devices and let reformists forge a different path. Counter to that, my plea is that that would be a defeatist attitude, we cannot and should allow that claim to go unchallenged. Fatimid tradition and scriptures gives no authority to Dais to invent new tenets and make them as absolute part of faith.
I'm sure he's a deep thinker and spiritual, but I'm a little uncomfortable with such thinking and spirituality that gives a free pass to Dais who manipulate basic faith and rule like absolute potentates.

I completely agree with Humsafar. Let us say we were to follow Kansas and create a new community because we shouldn't be seeking to right the wrongs in the bohra community. Then if we have similar folks in the new community who claim infallibility for themselves and some people believe in them. What then? do the others break away and form another community? And then another?

if you look at hitory, every religion and every community has gone under reform within a cycle of couple of hundered years, and this is how people have adopted new systems and new way of life, which ultimately lead to evolution of human understanding.

now this is the time for bohras to reform and get sync with modern world, which is beyond zyafat, salaam, talaqqi, human worshiping and other rituals.

Humsafar: You wrote:

Even so, the fact remains that you've built your argument on a false premise - infallibility of the Dai - and with the slightest nudge the whole thing comes crashing down.

I did not build my argument on the premise that the Dai is ACTUALLY infallible; I built my argument on the premise that he CLAIMS he is infallible, which he certainly has for the past 100 years.

Maybe so, but we cannot accept that fiction.

Ok, don't accept that fiction then. I certainly do not.

His infallibility has to be questioned as part of reform,

Feel free to question away!

and the community must be disabused of this infallibility nonsense.

Now this is the central point where you and I disagree. One thing I really admire about all the Dawoodi Bohras I have ever met (except for the Bhai Saheb from my childhood ) is that we are a religiously tolerant people. Having been a Sunni for a while I can assure you that all Muslim sects DO NOT respect the beliefs of others to the same degree. Your statement is very similar to what a Wahhabi/Talibani says; People are off the straight path and I am going to see to it that these deviant innovators come to their senses!

I must admit I am VERY offended by the way faithful Dawoodi Bohras are so often maligned on this website. "Brain-dead Abdes", "spineless sheep", "Muffy Moula"; the list goes on and on. My mother is one of these "brain-dead sheep", why does anyone think they have the right to insult her? None of us would call Hindus "brain-dead cow worshippers", EVEN if we believe they are commiting shirk. Why then do people attack their own friends and relatives?

Humsafar, I am not saying that YOU constantly insult the faithful Bohras, but your belief that the community needs to be disabused of something is condescending. This is true EVEN if your belief is correct. It also guarantees that Dawoodi Bohras will hate Progressives; no one likes being told that they are a gullible idiot.

Salam kansas - I would really like to debate with you, on some aspects of your thinking and proposals, on this issue (in a couple of days) but in the mean time would like to invite you to read my two posts entitled "The Way Forward" & "Succession Claimants Exposed" and then we can compare notes and discuss the matter further

Kansas,
In any religious system there always are some central planks of beliefs that remain firm and almost absolute. When discussing Bohra faith, we've to agree on what those central planks are: In my understanding it is the Ismaili system of Imamt (and his representatives) founded on Islamic and Quranic beliefs. The role of the Dai and Dawat is clearly laid out in the Fatimid and Tayyebi source books and well defined by tradition and history. Now the question is, are the Dai and Dawat going to adhere to and be guided by tradition and scriptures (and the larger Quranic teachings) or is it going to be a carte blanche for the Dai to do whatever he wishes?

You seem to be saying that if Dai is claiming to be something then let him be. That his claims are in contravention of our core beliefs does not seem to be much of a problem for you. Just because it is being claimed for 100 years does not make it valid or true.

Yes, I agree Bohras have traditionally been very tolerant and also liberal in their outlook, but not anymore, I'm afraid. Over the last generation they have increasingly become inward looking and insular. And in the last two years under Muffadal Saheb's dispensation increasingly Taliban-like. The current round of lanat marathon against SKQ is a testament to their growing intolerance.

Your assumption of "faithful" Bohras is moot. Faithful to what? To the Dai and his innovations or faithful to the core beliefs of our faith. The abuse of "faithful" Bohras on this Forum is deplorable but understandable when viewed in the larger context. In Islam and even within our narrow Islamili Tayyebi faith there is no room for human worship, there is no room for the Dawat becoming a cult, there is no room for believers becoming slaves of the Dai. If calling these practices into question and demanding that Bohras go back to Islamic ideals is condescending then so be it. By the way, the analogy of "cow-worshipping" Hindus is wrong. Within the framework of their belief system Hindus are supposed to worship cows. Within our Islamic framework worshipping humans is wrong. It is shirk and must be condemned. If Dai and Dawat were to renounce the Islamic mantle and become an independent cult then of course abusing and denouncing their practices by outsiders would be wrong and self-righteous.

Reformists, me included, have presumed the community needs reform. My question is 'Does the community want reform?. Here we are theorising and strategising as to what ails the community and diagnose and prescribe cures.

Agreed that Kothar is exacting ever-increasing levies under various names from the community. The community have and will always pay. Kothar has over the years racheted up retributions and punishment on defaulters and s##t disrurbers. From time to time we have seen dissent (Udaipur comes to mind) but nothing like a tidal wave. The majority of Bohras just go on living. Our community has always been meek and docile. Bohra faith has evolved over many many years. Bohras have always been faithful followers like their fathers and grandfathers. Their family life, community life, social life, commercial life revolves around the fulcrum of the faith and that means the Dai is their leader and redeemer. What the Dai says and proclaims is 'sar ankho uper'. Reform has never been in their agenda. They have no 'Plan B'.

For me, I am actively watching the shenanigans of SMS and SQS. I experience glee as the plot gets thicker. Soon all this will come to pass. SMS has the inside track and eventually SQS will fade away to lick his wounds. I do hope SMS will be magnaninous and give SQS enough to ward off malnutrition.

Humsafar, you wrote:

In any religious system there always are some central planks of beliefs that remain firm and almost absolute. When discussing Bohra faith, we've to agree on what those central planks are: In my understanding it is the Ismaili system of Imamt (and his representatives) founded on Islamic and Quranic beliefs.

Excellent, I agree with your planks. And it is because I agree with your planks that I believe that a reformed/democratic Dawoodi Bohrism can not exist. Shiism in general (and Ismaili Shiism in particular) can not be reconciled with democratic religious institutions. In fact, the core principle of Shiism is that the community of believers can not be trusted to have any say in who rules them. After all, the very founding event of Shiism is when a sort of election led to Abu Bakr becoming the first caliph. Shiism is clear that this was a catastrophe and that the people had no right to choose their leader. For Shias, leaders are appointed by their infallible predecessor; the flock has no say in the process whatsoever. This is especially true of the Ismailis, who either have an infallible Imam amongst them (Aga Khanis) or a hidden Imam that inspires his Dai from behind the scenes (Dawoodi Bohras). Progressives demanding that the Dai be accountable to them or seeking a say in who rules them should at least be honest and admit that their proposals have no precedent and are at complete at odds with Ismaili Shiism.

The role of the Dai and Dawat is clearly laid out in the Fatimid and Tayyebi source books and well defined by tradition and history.

I find this statement somewhat problematic. Others on this forum (Al-Zulfiqar) have made a similar argument, referencing the Fatimid Dai Qadi Noman and his work, "The Pillars of Islam". He of course never states that the Dai is infallible, but he lived in an era when the Fatimid Imams (who were claimed to be infallible) were present and directly ruling the umma. I am not sure if the opinions of a man who lived centuries before the Imam went into occultation directly apply to Dawoodi Bohras today; as Ismailis they can make a strong argument that an infallible leader living amongst the people is a requirement for the community to continue to exist.

Now the question is, are the Dai and Dawat going to adhere to and be guided by tradition and scriptures (and the larger Quranic teachings) or is it going to be a carte blanche for the Dai to do whatever he wishes.

This question has been answered quite definitively over the past century.

You seem to be saying that if Dai is claiming to be something then let him be.

Yes, exactly.

That his claims are in contravention of our core beliefs does not seem to be much of a problem for you.

Well, it was enough of a problem for me that I left the faith, but I do believe he can claim whatever he pleases and people can choose to follow him if they want.

Within our Islamic framework worshipping humans is wrong. It is shirk and must be condemned.

Ok, you have condemned it. Repeatedly. At some point it becomes like beating a dead horse.

If Dai and Dawat were to renounce the Islamic mantle and become an independent cult then of course abusing and denouncing their practices by outsiders would be wrong and self-righteous.

Exactly!!! So as an outsider, why do you keep abusing and denouncing them?

Dai is not infallible, no matter how loudly and for long he may claim it, and no matter how you slice and dice it.
I'm not an outsider.

Salam kansas - I am glad that any misunderstandings arising out of your article have been clarified/resolved and we can move on with the crucial work of creating awareness, inspiring and motivating those who for many years have been unhappy with the way Dawa't, Jamaats and the Community have been managed and who seriously believe that the Status Quo will not change in the way they operate and who see the present crisis as an opportunity to seek a different path, in which they can practice their Faith and enjoy their culture, traditions and heritage without any interference, while still upholding the tenets of the Faith and using best practices to promote their socio/economic/political progress, while being an integral part of the wider society they live in - The task ahead is challenging but not impossible and with the present energy, enthusiasm and goodwill, something meaningful can be achieved - However, we should not rush but create a momentum among the progressives/reformists and encourage them to join the new movement (suggested names "Progressive Dawoodi Bohras" or "Enlightened Dawoodi Bohras" or "Fatemi Dawoodi Bohras") - To promote this effort, I suggest we create "Country Groups" on this Forum, so that people from the same country can co-ordinate their efforts in setting up "Social Groups" in their respective towns/cities - One way is to state your country on your posts/comments and then ask Admin. to create the Country Groups - Also, let us find ways to reach out to people who are not participating on this Forum but would be interested in the initiative we are taking - This has to be a well co-ordinated effort to reach as many like minded people as possible - Those who have the technical expertise in how to achieve these goals, please come forward and help - Finally, kansas please read my posts entitled "The Way Forward" and "Succession Claimants Exposed" and let us co-ordinate our efforts with other progressives on this Forum and worldwide - I am in the US and can we identify everyone from the US on this Forum so that we can communicate directly via e-mail
Best Wishes - Aluta Continua

I thought there was a truce between kansas and Humsafar
If my reading is correct both them have good intentions for their cause
I think it is necessary not to get bogged down by their own principled positions but to move on for the greater good of the constituency they intend to impact - As I have said in some of my posts that this is a defining moment in the history of our Community as well as a historical moment in out recent history and we need to come up with practical grassroots solutions both in terms of the evolving situation as well as The Way Forward for those who believe Reforms will not happen and are wiling to explore alternatives

As regards kansas' serious concern about the civility on this Forum, please read my today's post entitled "Etiquette On This Forum"

I am going to put in my "two cents" here and hope some good can come from it - With much respect, Bhai Humsafar, I know exactly where you are coming from on this issue, in that, the only way to go, is to continue to challenge the Dai and his system until they give in to reforms, whereas kansas is saying that, that approach has NOT worked - On the contrary, the Dai and the Dawa't have become even more emboldened, because the great majority of the Community, possibly as much as 95%, supports the Dai (and I think kansas is even saying that this great majority has every right to decide for themselves, according to the dictates of their own conscience) - This reality (majority supporting the Dai) has not changed in the last 100 years or even in the last approx. 900 years (since Imam Tayyib) and kansas is saying that, there are people who have seriously re-examined their stand on this issue and are convinced that nothing will ever change as long as the Dai has the support of the majority, hence he does not have to concede anything - We can call this great majority all kind of names but it is not going to alter the fact that they like their Dai and want to support him, call it blind/misguided faith and we have no business telling them anything but to wish them well and move on with our lives

So, I think, kansas believes that, given the present situation in the Dawa't, perhaps it is time to explore alternatives, to what has clearly not worked (demand for reforms)

I sincerely hope that you, Sir (Humsafar) are not taking this personally and not as an affront to your stand, because you have every right to take the position that you believe is morally right for you - I admire and respect that you are a veteran on this Forum but at this defining moment in the history of our community, each one of us, having made our own individual experiences in the Dawa't, is free to choose any path they feel will be good for their religious/spiritual fulfillment - Yes, each of us can put forward our plan to the people and let the people decide, of their own free will, which way they want to go - We live in a world where people have learned to make their own choices, in many aspects of their lives and increasingly people are exercising that right by making choices which they believe are good for their life
Let us agree to disagree but remain friends and well wishers, for that is our collective strength
Let us move on and find practical solutions for the challenges we face

Bhai Humsafar, with due respect - You say that "thinking Bohras who have some idea of our history cannot and should not allow the Dai and his flock to get away with that claim"
The trouble is Bohras stopped thinking some 100 years ago - They are content with their lives and do not want to think, in fact have no time to think and have entrusted that task to the Dai, to do all the thinking for them and then issue the commandments - Bohras don't know any history let alone their own history - They let the Dai tell them the history, not as it is known or recorded but as he deems fit, taking into account the "intellect" of his flock - When you say "cannot" and "should not" then it becomes a monumental task to get a Bohra to challenge the Dai, for they are not known for anything courageous - I will bet you a buck that most Bohras may not know the meaning of the word "Mumin"

Bhai Humsafar, with due respect, what do you do with DICTATORS? - We are not in the political arena where we can demonstrate, challenge and confront them or take them to court and get the international community place sanctions on them or even start an armed revolt against them but unfortunately we are in the religious arena where people are known to lay down their lives for their leaders, let alone challenging them in any way - So, if Bohras are not stepping up to take action against the Dai, do you suggest we whip them into submission, which could put us all in jail - These people do not want to listen to anything, any word against the Dai is like firing a bullet at them - You must have noticed how violent and abusive they became in relation to SKQ's claim to be the Dai - In fact the present scenario is clear proof that Bohras are least concerned about the higher Islamic ideals that you are talking about, it is beyond them, sadly and unfortunately and worst of all, it is a lost cause, whether one likes it or not or whether one wants to accept it or not

AliZahara,

Thank you for your posts, and thank you for trying to understand my point of view. The question of breaking away and forming another sect has been looming on reformists for a long time. Don't think it has not crossed our minds. In fact, the mafia clergy will be more than happy to see our backs, and has been urging us to do so at every opportunity. But I hope you and Kansas and others with similar bent of mind will realise the contradiction and irony in your position.

If you are going to argue that the Dai's claim to infallibility is a cardinal tenet of Bohra Islamili faith, and when questioning that tenet disqualifies you from being a Dawoodi Bohra then how would you, by breaking away and forming a separate sect, still maintain your "religious" Dawoodi Bohra identity. You would have cut the umbilical chord to the fundamental doctrine and the chain of Imams that underpins the basic Dawoodi Bohra faith. Of course you can call yourselves reformists/progressives whatever, and you may still retain the vestiges of your culture and ethnicity but nothing more. You may look like Bohras but in the most essential and fundamental sense you would have renounced the Fatemid Tayyebi faith. Donctrinally, you may claim antecedents to Shiism, Ismailism, Tayyebism, Boharism or whatever but you would have lost all historical continuity and validity of your claim. Or you can choose to be plain Shia Muslim or Sunni Muslim or just Muslim and that would be perfectly Okay. Are reformists ready for this? I doubt very much. Personally, I couldn't care less either way.

Now as to the issue of infallibility, it is a peculiar Shiite tenet which was introduced in a specific historical context and has evolved over time into a fundamental article of faith. But anyone who can sustain a thought for more than five seconds knows that this is pure fiction. It is a relic of the past, and we can keep it as community heirloom and regard it as something cute and corny but we don't have to believe in it as gospel truth. Our brand of Ismailism has to evolve. Maybe it would be too radical to question the Imam's infallibility right away but we as thinking and aware Bohras must not allow the Dai to get away with that claim. Once you begin to chip away at this infallibility monolith and all the myth of perfection surrounding it, a newer and freer community might begin to emerge. But this is only true for those who care about historical continuity and ties to the past. Those who don't are free to go their way, and they don't even have to bother with any elaborate justification for it either.

AliZahra:

I have now read your "claimants exposed" post (along with many others, 98% of which I agree with).

In it, you state that not only is the Dai not infallible, much of what he does is blatantly un-Islamic.

Then you call into question whether the Imam uz-Zaman even exists! After all, there seems to be a controversy over whether Dawoodi Bohras beleive the Dai is infallible, infallible-like, or not infallible. But there is no doubt that the Imam is infallible and is supposed to inspire the Dai to remain on the straight path. So where has he been the past 100 years?

Then you liken the misaq to slavery!

Then you suggest that the Dai should have to give a misaq to the community!! (something that has no precedent in any form of Shiism anywhere)

If the Dawoodi Bohra faith is like a building, your post is the equivalent of someone taking a sledgehammer and knocking down all the walls. And then setting the building on fire. And then dropping 1000 nuclear bombs on the rubble.

Yet despite this you write the following:

However, we should not rush but create a momentum among the progressives/reformists and encourage them to join the new movement (suggested names "Progressive Dawoodi Bohras" or "Enlightened Dawoodi Bohras" or "Fatemi Dawoodi Bohras")

I don't know how to make this any clearer; you (or anyone who shares your opinions) are NOT Dawoodi Bohras. You are as much a Dawoodi Bohra as Narendra Modi. Actually, that is false. Modi is at least welcomed at Saifee Mahal, you would be cursed, excommunicated, and beaten.

I have already explained why I believe the term "Progressive Dawoodi Bohra" is an oxymoron. But you take it even further. "Enlightened" Dawoodi Bohra?? And again, when you call yourself the progressive or enlightened Dawoodi Bohra, you are implicity insulting the majority as the regressive or unenlightened Dawoodi Bohras. Why not just call them the Neanderthal Barbarian Bohras and be done with it?

I believe it was a member of the Nathwani Commission that called the Kothar a "state within a state". Let's call this fictional state Syednastan. I believe like-minded people should seek to amicably secede from this country and create institutions as they see fit. But it is becoming clear that this is NOT what most Progressives want. They are like a cabal of left-wing military officers who want to stage a coup and take over Syednastan! I think Progressives will continue to find little support for such an overzealous illiberal undertaking.

Humsafar
I was not trying to justify anything because I have always known that if I want to do something, I do not have to justify it to anyone, it is between me and my Creator - It was because of the "tit for tat" that was going on between you and kansas, that I felt, I should clarify my position - The past does not matter anymore to me, what matters more to me now is being a good Muslim and a good human being and move on with my life - I am fairly young (approaching 70) and have for many many years suspected the infallibility of the Dai and his proclaimed connection with the Imam-uz-Zaman, through "ilham" and one time upon questioning an Aamil about it, he explained, in such a way, just to convince me that it was, as you say Gospel Truth and by asking such questions I would be weakening my Imaan - Actually, the present crisis, reaffirmed my past suspicions and my resolve to leave the Staus Quo (since last Saturday, the day of Misaq in my city)

AliZahra,
The "justification" bit was not aimed at you in particular but was a general comment for anyone who wanted to leave the community for whatever reason.

Kansas,
You don't have to be so rigid and cocksure about the inviolability of the Dai and the Bohra doctrine. The Dai is not God. Besides, even the mighty Catholic Chruch has yielded to public pressure and changing times. The church has made a string of mea culpas, and this despite the Pope claiming to be infallible. The Dai will yield if Bohras wake up from their slumber and pressure him enough, or rather stop giving him and his parasitic family any money. Stop that financial oxygen and see how the infallible beings start behaving.

The suggestion of "amicably seceding" is defeatist. With that attitude I wonder how humanity would have progressed. All the prophets and seers and rebels and revolutionaries should have given in to their oppressors and tormentors and receded to their caves. And once your group secedes, and again there is some dispute, so what do you do? Secede again? Secede till you are in a minority of one? If this sounds ridiculous, then it is, and this is exactly what you are suggesting.

Humsafar wrote:AliZahra,
The Dai is not God. Besides, even the mighty Catholic Chruch has yielded to public pressure and changing times. The church has made a string of mea culpas, and this despite the Pope claiming to be infallible. The Dai will yield if Bohras wake up from their slumber and pressure him enough, or rather stop giving him and his parasitic family any money. Stop that financial oxygen and see how the infallible beings start behaving.

Absolutely correct. But the issue is that the "public" is not going to put pressure. A common Bohra is not like a common Christian who could "think" and apply "logic". So the main issue is that you will never see any uprising or pressure from the masses because of which the Dai (and the whole system) will change. This is the crux of the question "Is reform truly possible?".

Forget Dai and his infallibility for now. Just focus on his subjects. Do you really think that they will put pressure on the Dai to bring in the reforms? (Ofcourse a handful of them can and might but we need majority here). In my humble opinion the primary focus should not be the Dai but the common bohra who needs to be educated to starting "thinking". Rest of the things come after that.

Btw: Did reformists do anything to connect with common bohra over the past thirty years? (just asking, no pun intended)

I question people as to why the rich Dai deserves your money more than the Ghareeb, miskeen and old folks. Create one more Insan from an abde. Just chip away and this mountain and it will become grains of sand. This is how the reform is possible.

AgnosticTheist wrote:Forget Dai and his infallibility for now. Just focus on his subjects. Do you really think that they will put pressure on the Dai to bring in the reforms? (Ofcourse a handful of them can and might but we need majority here). In my humble opinion the primary focus should not be the Dai but the common bohra who needs to be educated to starting "thinking". Rest of the things come after that.

I don't think "education" is the real issue here. There are thousands of educated and professional Bohras who are enabling the corrupt system, either out of ignorance or cowardice. Either way the end result is the same. But it is a Catch 22 situation all the same, unless Bohras become aware and bold nothing will change, but no conditions exist to make them aware and bold. But ultimately change will come and it has come from within. Nothing is permanent. Of course the alternative, as I said before, is to form your own social/cultural club that mirrors Bohra lifestyle.

AgnosticTheist wrote:Btw: Did reformists do anything to connect with common bohra over the past thirty years? (just asking, no pun intended)

All reformist jamats do charity work. In Udaipur we have various institutions and charity organisations affiliated to the jamat which has been helping the poor Bohras for past 40 years. The help includes financial assistance, food and clothing, free medical care and free schooling for their children. And you have to understand the context within which it is done: the Udaipur jamat is engaged in legal battles with the Kothar and has to spend untold amounts to hire good lawyers and other court expenses. Opposed to our one lawyer, the Kothar has a battery of 10 top-notch lawyers. This is the kind enemy we are facing just to keep control and ownership of our community property. Besides funds must be spent upkeep and maintenance of properties, running of jamat etc. All the work is done on voluntary basis. The source of funds is yearly sial fitra etc. and personal donations form people. Despite our limited resources we reformists have done a good job of supporting our poor brethren. If the Kothar spent only 1% out of their annual loot on the poor, poverty among Bohras would be completely eradicated.

We need to educate our sisters, specially mothers of children to dream free life for their children. No more forced club fees. The new Bhikari ordered women in the house like zoo animals is for this reason. Women should teach children all the good that goes with living free of miracle man. Its the good work that brings satisfaction to life. Freedom is Allah's gift to pursue life full of good deeds and pleasure. There is more to life than hanging out at markaz listening to senseless lectures and unnecessary matem. Waiting to be fed for hours takes away the fun of life. We have so much to accomplish and so far to go. Dont give this stupid life to your children, they deserve better.

Humsafar bhai,

We have had this conversation in private too.

All Dawoodi Bohras are interested in reform, more so now. but when you have people abusing our faith and Dais (Seeker 110's post above is a case in point), you are not going to find too many supporters in your cause.

i have mentioned this numerous times earlier. I have often asked people to come and look at this site in the past 2 years, but the first thing that they see is abuse and gaali-galoch to our faith and that it... full stop.

Until this is weeded out, you wont find too many supporters for your cause, unless they are thick-skinned like me

i agree, a lot of educated Dawoodi Bohras are aware of what is going on, but are part of the community for a third reason that you did not mention. Ignorance and Cowardice, yes, but also, a sense of belonging, an identity. it is who we are and what our forefathers were. Whether it is a perverted version of what our forefathers knew or not is something that is evident over here only. the present community today has seen the previous 3 Dai's only, so there is no reference point we have to hedge the corruption/perversion on.

i completely agree on the next points you say about kothar controlling the wealth of the community, it is a long-standing dream that we all have, and WILL one day come true, if not in my lifetime, then certainly in my childrens

P.S. incase you wish to point out the gaali galoch from our side, i agree, it is there, but it is a reaction to the abuse that is dished out to us here

Humsafar wrote:

AgnosticTheist wrote:Forget Dai and his infallibility for now. Just focus on his subjects. Do you really think that they will put pressure on the Dai to bring in the reforms? (Ofcourse a handful of them can and might but we need majority here). In my humble opinion the primary focus should not be the Dai but the common bohra who needs to be educated to starting "thinking". Rest of the things come after that.

I don't think "education" is the real issue here. There are thousands of educated and professional Bohras who are enabling the corrupt system, either out of ignorance or cowardice.

Well, I should have used a better word than "educated". I didn't mean the actual education but to make them "start thinking" and "reason logically". I have seen many highly educated (and western) bohras who are die hard abdes and are absolutely "brain dead".

Humsafar wrote:

AgnosticTheist wrote:Btw: Did reformists do anything to connect with common bohra over the past thirty years? (just asking, no pun intended)

All reformist jamats do charity work. In Udaipur we have various institutions and charity organisations affiliated to the jamat which has been helping the poor Bohras for past 40 years. The help includes financial assistance, food and clothing, free medical care and free schooling for their children. And you have to understand the context within which it is done: the Udaipur jamat is engaged in legal battles with the Kothar and has to spend untold amounts to hire good lawyers and other court expenses. Opposed to our one lawyer, the Kothar has a battery of 10 top-notch lawyers. This is the kind enemy we are facing just to keep control and ownership of our community property. Besides funds must be spent upkeep and maintenance of properties, running of jamat etc. All the work is done on voluntary basis. The source of funds is yearly sial fitra etc. and personal donations form people. Despite our limited resources we reformists have done a good job of supporting our poor brethren. If the Kothar spent only 1% out of their annual loot on the poor, poverty among Bohras would be completely eradicated.

Good to know this.

Zingerji, Mola Ali used to make pieces of the zalim and deen na dushman in war and for the freedom of human beings. Mola Ali was the true defender of Haq of the poor. It is unfortunate of me, to see so many of my fellow human beings mistreated and me not wiping them out. Some see Mola Ali as the man of wisdom. There is another side of this Haider-e-Karrar, a true fighter of human rights dignity and freedom. Many of my young bohra brothers are not reminded of the great warrior of Islam. Need help, call on Mushkel Kusha. Leave your Dai to rob bhoras in masjid.