Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

[jawanmardan]

This discussion seems utterly pointless.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

Every discussion with znan is utterly pointless, but I can't let her go on distorting the quran. Did you read how she manipulates the quran's ayahs?

Now consider this quote of hers

The Koran says: "None shall have the power of intercession, but such who has received permission (or promise) from (God), the Most Glorious" (19:87) ...so have your alims or mullahs received this power or permission? if so how and when? and if you can't show us then again you are hopelessly deluded and have fallen into misguidance !

Has anyone ever claimed that any alim or mullah has received this power or permission for intercession? Now, no one has made this claim, but if we can't show that we have made this claim then you are hopelessly deluded and have fallen into misguidance !. Does what she say make any sense to you? So we have to show you that which cannot be shown and if we can't show you that which cannot be shown then we are deluded and misguided.?? Are people like her common amongst Ismailis or is she an exception?

She says that the quran we have is fabricated by Uthman and she keeps quoting fabrications and distortions from this same quran. What kind of a person is she? I don't believe she is evil. I just think that she is extremely stupid. Her parents probably dropped her on her head when she was little.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

znan keeps asking us about why Allah refers to himself in the plural "We" or "Us". She refuses to give answers to any questions she asks, even though she claims that she has all the answers, so is it ok if I ask you as to what the Ismaili understanding is of why Allah refers to himself as "We" or "Us"?

[znanwalla]

because I have no obligation to answer for you !...I am not here to "educate" you.....we all know that you guys have not been able to answer most of our questions....nothing new to us !...zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

I abide by what I have questioned or stated because the historians are saying this too ! Muslim philologist recognize it also....so what I am saying is nothing unique !...the only time this issue can be resolved is if you provide answers and everyone can then judge fairly (as I do not accept blindly anything that is offered to me).....I quoted an ayat and asked you simply if it applies to your Muftis and Mullahs...you are saying it doesn't ! then thats fine....maybe God is talking of someone else then ?......zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

I have told you many times over that you are assuming i am referring to your text ! I am not !...but you don't seem to get the point....if anyone cross refers books of different authors or commentators, it does not mean he or she follows it ! I don't ! I don't ! how many times you want me to repeat I dont follow what you follow !!!!...zn

[anajmi]

because I have no obligation to answer for you !...I am not here to "educate" you.....we all know that you guys have not been able to answer most of our questions

hub!! You are not obligated to answer me but I am supposed to answer you? Does your Imam have blinders fitted on to the Ismaili morons?

[anajmi]

So you concede that you quote fabricated ayahs from books that you don't follow? So you concede that you actually don't follow what you quote? So you concede that you don't follow the quran when it talks about the Imam Mubeen? HA HA. Caught again with your pants down!!

[jawanmardan]

anajmi,

To be honest I am barely following the "discussion" I'm being very generous with that description.

As to your question I'm not fluent in Classical Arabic, and aren't aware of a particular Isma'ili take on the "we" issue. Personally I would presume the "We" employed in the English Qu'ran is one form of a plural pronoun, in this case a pluralis majestatis or "Majestic use Plural". Its often employed in in Italian by Popes, the English sitting sovereigns, and high ranking clergy. Quite possibly others I'm not aware of.

[Muslim First]

Its often employed in in Italian by Popes, the English sitting sovereigns, and high ranking clergy. Quite possibly others I'm not aware of.

And also by dimwit called ZN.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

Thanks for the response. That is the understanding of the majority of the Muslim Ummah. The "We" in the quran is used as a plural of respect. It does not indicate that Allah is referring to himself and the Hazar Imam.

znan,

Did you get that?

[Aarif]

Divinely guided by God, he molds the sensible spiritual truths revealed to him into the Zahir, and adapts them, making them relevant to the society and people he must convey this message to.

Agreed

Islam is unchanging, and any attempt to reconstruct Islamic "truths" is both illusionary and futile.

Agreed

Religion may not be changed but rather the human understanding of it, within this distinction lies the key of reconciling a fixed religion with a dynamic contemporary world. To meet the challenges of modernity Muslims must not seek to change their religion but reconcile their beliefs with the outside world (scientific, cultural, social etc).

We have a disconnect here.. The human understanding of religion is supposed to remain the same. It is not suppose to change with times. Even today human values have not changed most of which were guided by religion at some point of time. E.g. stealing is wrong and honesty is considered as a virtue. This was true 1400 years ago and it is true even today. We cry when we are hurt and we laugh when we are happy which means that basic human emotions have not changed either. If basic values, emotions and human feelings have not changed how can the understanding of religion change with times???

The need of a contemporary spiritual leader to set the parameters of discussion and dialogue amongst individual believers becomes paramount in moving human understanding of religion forward, and to execute a reconciliation between religious truths, and the outside world, in so doing the faith becomes relevant to contemporary needs, and challenges. Further the spiritual leader is also a repository of the esoteric nature of religion since for our community religious objectives are not Paradise in the exoteric sense, but Marifat a spiritual gnosis.

As I have mentioned earlier that all that you need to know about Islam is there in Quran. It is the essence of Islam. Now I agree that you need some person with good understanding of Quran (in terms of its message) to guide and preach the common masses. But than this can be done by any qualified person who spends enough efforts and time to gain that knowledge. You do not need any spiritual leader for that... The crux of my point lies in the fact that when you bring in spirituality it results in cult formation and human worshipping. And that is the reason our prophet(pbuh) always kept himself away from this aspect and guided the mankind to follow the path as mentioned in Quran.

we believe that Nass is guided by a divine inspiration.

My belief is that divine inspiration can come to any person who is chosen by Allah and it does not dependent upon Nass. If Allah wishes you or I can be that chosen one. And for that you do not need any ancestral background. If you will read history carefully it has been the most ordinary people from nowhere have done the most extraordinary things for mankind.

We believe that most will be satisfied with the zahir, but others will seek a spiritual and intellectual journey to the divine and move from Shariat to Tariqat to Haqiqat to achieve Marifat, the Imam I Zaman is a primarily intended for this purpose in addition to what I have outlined above.

If one needs to embark on a spiritual journey than his spiritual guide is Allah. This is the concept of Islam as we believe in one god and all others are mere followers of this god. If this is true than how can a human being guide you to a spiritual journey who himself is a mere follower?

[znanwalla]

"Its often employed in in Italian by Popes, the English sitting sovereigns, and high ranking clergy..."

Really?............Najmi, It is not easy to understand JM !

So Najmi what you are saying to us all is that what you folks are doing now is following what the Pope and the "english sovereigns" use as their interpretation in their own language, as you do not have enough brains of your own !

Nor do you understand the implication of the word "employed" !....

The Quran as revealed to Muhamad in its original form (not your interpolations and paid script writings) distinguishes between truth and falsehood and refines the old books of human alloy and contains transcendant truths embodied in all sacred scritptures with Complete additions, necessary for the development of all human faculties and so the Quran adds what was not in the previous scriptures....so najmi whilst the Quran is meant to refine, in your situation it is the other way around....hahahahhah! dumbo !


You do not know classical arabic and so anyone who knows this language will tell you that Quran CANNOT be translated in english or other languages in a complete and literal manner because of its intimate relationship between its linguisitic form and semantic content and so the "sovereign english" or the style and mannerisms of the Itlaian Popes and their clergy lacks incommensurability as classical arabic has extreme density and extra ordinary intensity and so cannot be reproduced in english and then interpretated and that is why you are so confused....the sacredotal language of the Quran is built on mathematical principles and shows signs of being a constructed language - a phenomena not paralleled by any other language and yet Najmi riding high on his MF scooters, made in Tataland is trying to convince everyone in this forum that muslims are following the style and mannerisms of the English Sovereigns and the Pope of Italy, as a key approach to the Quran !

That is why I call him the "Al-Dim" from the Pit latrines of Wahabbi land ! JM set him up and so he clung to it desperately like a drowning man holding onto a straw....hahahahaha!

Najmi thinks the Quran is the collection of dogmas or the handbook of his non-believing Mulla cult and then wants to bark incessantly like an imbecile showing us all his ignorance !

zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi and the MF scooters....! Go back in time to Adam and explain to us clearly Sura al Baqara.....

I am not here to educate the uneducated Wahaabis like you and so to that extent I do not feel obligated to be at your beck and call.....we have offered explanation to most of your questions but you have not been able to answer most of ours that we raised !

So if you do not have the answers then I am not going to provide you with answers to my own questions and 'educate' you ......let the people know how limited is your knowledge about Islam and the Quran !

" God it is who created for you all that is on earth, then turned to the heights and fashioned them into SEVEN HEAVENS and God is completely aware of all things....".....So Najmi ....God says he created "Seven heavens".....do you agree ? or have your script writers "abrogated" this ayat?

"And when your Lord said to the angels..." I AM PLACING A DEPUTY ON EARTH"......." Isn't this clear to all that God has indeed sent HIs Manifest Light on this earth? so now kindly explain to me in the context of TAWHID what this implies? but it is clear - HE has sent HIS deputy or Vicar and so in a general context, do you agree with this ayat? or are you disputing it ?

So to whom does the WE/US/OURS apply? one needs to trace it all since Adam and beyond and not jump any ladders !

"God said..." Adam tell them their names" and when he had told them their names, God said, did I not tell you I know the mysteries of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you disclose and what you have been concealing...".....(so does this not tie up with Sura Yaseen?)

And so opposed God ? Iblis? what happened to him? he was banished? what did Iblis then do? he opposed God and chose to mislead God's creation? who are they? kindly read the Prophet's ahadith....the Holy Prophet offers a clear explanation as to who they are ?

Al-Shawkani (1979), Al-Subki (1982) and Al-Bazdawi (1973) defines ITJIHAD and says
it is as "to spare no effort in the quest of knowing the rules of the
divine laws."...... It may also be defined as a creative but disciplined and
comprehensive intellectual effort to derive rulings, in the absence of CLEAR TEXTS FROM THE QURAN ON GIVEN ISSUES in the context of the existing conditions of the Muslim community. (Kamali 2002)

So people like you should now go to the Pope and the english sovereigns as you seem to prefer their style and mannerism better in how one should or can understand the Quran!

zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Now tell this forum how God created Adam? and what did HE breath into Adam before making him his Deputy and Vicar but importantly to qualify him as HIS deputy ?

Then let us know a bit about your own origin, i.e., where is your original abode? Some may say that their origin is from Adam... Yes !your body is created from Adam but before this your origin was from where? and in which world were you and what is it called ? and prior to that where were you i.e. in which world? what is this world known as ?

And then try and explain how have you descended in a step wise manner into this human form?....now unless you can briefly touch base on this subject, you are really ill equipped to discuss about the Prophet or Imamat if you don't even know your own origin ...so let us hear you now...and remember God has said that there are seven heavens...right? .....zn

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

Can you please explain what znan is saying as I have absolutely no clue.

[znanwalla]

Why is JM your teacher or guru? why are you then making boastful claims you know the Quran? or everyone in this world should follow what you follow when you don't have answers to what I am showing you?

Al-Amidi (1966) defines Ijtihad as "to spare no effort in the quest of discovering the supposed rules of the divine in the sense that the Mujtahid leaves no stone unturned......

Besides, the Koran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33)......so what happens now? Muhamad is not amongst you? or do you want JM to also help you understand this ayah?

....."(Remember) the day (hereafter) when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader-witness) then, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their books and they shall not be dealt with (even) a shred unjustly" (17:71).....do you not see a clear distinction between IMAM and the BOOK and also don't you see that there is an indication that you will NOt be able to hold the Book also if there is NO Imam with you as Allah says openly HE will call only through your Imams and now you have NONE ! so will your Mullahs stand for you? they themselves will need an Imam also or Allah's message is clear what awaits anyone without the Imam? and the prophet has already said that those who die without knowing their Imam of the time and age will die the death of a pervert (ignorance).....

The word Imam is used seven times in singular and five times in plural form in the Koran. I don't think you even know this ? Yes! Sura Yasin is just one of such verse !

what about this then?..."O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you Light from Allah AND Plain scripture , whereby Allah guides him who seeks His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He brings them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guides them unto a straight path." (5:15-16). (don't you see a clear distinction between the Light from Allah and the Plain scripture? or do you need JM to help you here also?

Now go and listen to the arabic version of 15:79....it refers also to IMAMIM MOBEEN AND IMPLIES a path or a road - not the Book !

1). "And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Verily, I make you Imam for the mankind. Abraham said: And of my offspring? He (God) said: My covenant does not include the unjust" (2:124)....Now is the expression IMAM still unclear to you ignorant folks?

2. "And We made them Imams guiding people by Our command and We revealed to them the doing of good and keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve" (21:73). ....so what is so unclear here?

3. "And We made Imams among them to guide by Our command when they were patient and they were certain of Our signs" (32:24).

4. "And We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams and to make them heirs" (28:5). ( so who was weak and yet God made him HIS heir?)

5. "And those who pray: O our Lord! Grant in our wives and our progeny the comfort of our eyes and make us Imams to lead the righteous" (25:74).

And how would you also explain to us..."None is there in the heavens and the earth but he comes to the All-Merciful, as a Servant.." (19:93)...so who is this "servant" of Allah ? and make a special note here that Allah says clearly that there is NONE in the heavens and the earth but he.......so are you not able to understand this?

When you don't have answers you start showing your childishness as usual but everyone here knows your limitations !

zn

[anajmi]

Why is JM your teacher or guru?

No, but he obviously understands Ismaili garbage better than I can.

[anajmi]

If Hazrat Uthman manipulated the quran to remove references to Imam Mubeen, then how did you find Imam Mubeen in the quran? Also, you said that you do not follow the texts you quote. Imam Mubeen in our text refers to a book. It is our text not yours. And you do not follow it. Our text says that your Hazar Imam Mubeen is foolish and unjust.

[znanwalla]

How do you know I am only reading from Uthman's text? why do you believe that only one text exists in this world when there are many?

Secondly do you want me to ask you the questions again, on the quality of your text and its history of compilation, which you have not been able to answer?

if so then let me know but give a committment that you will answer !

Also just because you hold a "like thereof" does not mean you have the Quran in its entirity and frankly if you texts also reflect the same information then why were you not honest enough to quote the ayats which I have quoted and (which you now do not dispute) ...

And why did you even dispute Imamat? is it because you are in this habit of obfuscating and maligning ? or are you are you so ignorant ? so what is it? dishonesty? ignorance? or ayats missing?.....zn

[znanwalla]

He understands because he is knowledgeable ! You don't because you ride MF scooters made in Tataland ! You had no answers based on your own admission and so you are hoping JM will be "kind" enough to comply and spoonfeed you ignorants !....zn

[znanwalla]

If what we practice, believe or do is garbage then by default what you practice, believe or are doing must be of value ! so then why does it irk you so much? why is your entire inner being under heat? why do you feel so jealous and petty? only logical conclusion I draw is that what you have is not what you proclaim but inferior than what we have and hence the burning and whining !....when i llok at the statistics concerning your women, it shows some grim picture....a large number of your women die in pregnancy or childbirth (average 6 for every 1000 live births and this is despite the fact that contraception has not been formally banned by orthodox islam...why such a high mortality rate? the average life span of the woman is also low ! female attendance in primary school is one of the lowest you have..why? did the prophet discouage education for them? large part of the blame lies with your own attitudes which has always seem women as being inferior to man...for many of you birth of a baby girl is a matter of mourning for you still !and hundreds of babygirls born are abandoned in the gutters and dustbins or on the pavements...why? during marriage the girls' family is under pressure to provide high dowry....you guys have turned the clock backwards and you are now boasting ! You should look down in shame !...zn

[anajmi]

How do you know I am only reading from Uthman's text? why do you believe that only one text exists in this world when there are many?

Good. So you concede that the quran that we all have and which is easily available on Amazon and everywhere else around the world, does not refer to your Hazar Imam when referring to Imam Mubeen. You are referring to some other book. That is all I wanted you to concede. Mission accomplished.

[anajmi]

if so then let me know but give a committment that you will answer !

I will give a committment only after you give a committment to first answer all my questions.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,


so now you also concede that you are following a text found on Amazon website ! wow ! first you call your Imams as being useless ! then you also abandon them and boast you have the Quran and now suddenly you are saying to all of us you read Amazon !!!! OMg ! I think you are really screwed up pal !

zn

[anajmi]

znan,

No, I simply concede that the text I follow is easily available on Amazon. An Ismaili won't understand the difference. That is the reason why your books were hidden and you have been quoting fabrications ever since.

[znanwalla]

Lots of trash and garbage is also readily available in 'sovereign english" too , on the internet ? was Quran revealed to the Internet?....so in other words you would be willing to follow anything that seems like Quran to you but is not save a like thereof ?....I told you that you were an imbecile !...I even offered its meaning so you understand pretty well what a scooter you are?...zn

[anajmi]

Yeah, available to me. But you are the one quoting fabrications. ha ha ha.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

So now you are conceding openly that you are referring to garbage and trash ! Thank you !....zn

[anajmi]

So you concede that you've been quoting garbage and trash all along?