Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:40 pm**

Who ever destroys nature for fun is out of Islam and he is mardood.

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:03 am**

Rightly so......they want to extradite the dentist who killed Cecil the lion. They also need to extradite MS for killing this lion. MS and his gundas paid similar amounts to kill the lion.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/world/zim ... index.html

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:59 pm**

Cecil the lion's slay inspires push from local pols to protect wildlife

After sparking outrage, the killing of Zimbabwe's Cecil the Lion by Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer is now inspiring local legislators to create new protections for wildlife.

Manhattan Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-Manhattan) Thursday called for the African lion to be listed as "threatened" under the U.S.' Endangered Species Act.

"It's hard to imagine a world without lions, but that's what we'll get if we do nothing," Maloney said in a statement.

The idea was first proposed in letter from 44 congressmembers to the Department of the Interior in 2013. Listing the lion as threatened would make it illegal to bring carcass "trophies" back to the U.S., aiming to disincentivize American hunters from killing at all.

"The United States is the largest source of game hunters traveling abroad and paying top dollar to shoot these majestic animals," she said. "The outrageous killing of Cecil the Lion is just the latest example for why Fish and Wildlife Service should act immediately to add African lions to the Endangered Species Act threatened species list."

Another piece of legislation would bring the ban a little closer to home.

On Wednesday, New Jersey Assemb. Tim Eustace proposed banning the transport of endangered animals' bodies in Port Authority-controlled terminals, such as LaGuardia and Kennedy airports, cutting "off a link back to the United States for game hunters."

"Hopefully making it more difficult for these types of hunters to transport their 'prizes' will give them pause or perhaps even make them reconsider this type of inhumane activity," he said.

The Port Authority declined to comment.

Taking it a step further, Queens State senator Tony Avella took the opportunity for another push for his "Big Five African Species" bill, introduced earlier this year. The bill would put a statewide ban on the sale, possession, import or transportation of the bodies and body parts of African lions and four other species threatened by hunting.

"The recent story uncovering the cruel murder of the beloved Cecil the Lion is, unfortunately, yet another example of how legal hunting practices are actually encouraging illegal poaching," Avella said. "Since New York acts as a major transportation hub for international hunters, these prohibitions will be a big step toward protecting these threatened species."

http://www.amny.com/news/cecil-the-lion ... 1.10693199

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:18 pm**

I don't think SMS will go on hunting in the near future considering all the world's attention there. Don't worry, extra abde sheep will be hunted for ziyafats, nikahs, misaaqs, qadams in the meantime.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:34 am**

٧٨٦

Hunting according to Fatimid-Ismaili Islam

The following is from a work that I am currently preparing that aims at refuting the "Progressive" Doctrine, but due to far reaching ignorance of Fatimid beliefs on this forum, I feel I must post this part now. This work is in no way related to the official Dawat e Hadiyat. What follows is purely based on research I have conducted myself. Firstly, according to the Fatimid-Ismaili school of law, hunting is a permissible practice, in accordance with the actions of the esteemed and holy family of Prophet Muhammed (SAW). I will now offer proofs that support my argument.

There is not one Ayah of the Holy Quran (except those that refer to prohibition of hunting during Pilgrimage), nor one authentic Fatimid-Ismaili Hadith that states hunting for reasons other than sustenance is forbidden or disapproved. “Progressives” who rely on the books of our Sunni brothers simply have no case as such books have been rejected by the Awlia Allah (AS) in the first place.

Maulana Hamza (AS) the noble uncle and loyal companion of the Messenger of God (SAW) was an avid lion hunter. The Messenger of God (SAW) would have rebuked him if he was wrong in doing so, and at least in Fatimid-Ismaili literature, no such thing has been recorded. It is rather fitting that he was given the title 'Lion of God’.

All historians of repute, for example those at the Institute of Ismaili Studies affirm that the Fatimid Caliphs (AS) took part in royal hunting expeditions. Dr. Shainool Jiwa references Ibn Muyassar, Ibn al Athir, Ibn Khallikan and al Maqrizi; who all state the Caliph al Aziz (AS), our fifteenth Imam used to excel at lion hunting and was a great patron of the sport (http://www.academia.edu/6711858/Title_A ... a_Islamica). Al Maqrizi clearly states: “On his return from the hunt, the Caliph entered the city of Cairo preceded by a lion which lay on a mule”. He even spent 50,000 dinars on birds of prey in his court, according to most Mamluk historians (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PRc ... ng&f=false). Why he spent so much is not for us to question as obedience to him was obligatory and he ruled by Divine Right. One of the Imam's (AS) slaves even compiled a book on the rules of hunting and its religious legitimacy. He stresses that there are two types of hunters: "the underclass that hunts for gain and the prince that hunts for pleasure." (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6V9 ... id&f=false )

According the book State and Society in Fatimid Egypt, Caliph al Amir (AS), our twentieth Imam, also went on hunting expeditions, on one occasion he stayed at a Christian monastery where he built a pavilion and donated large sums of money to the local monks (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I2L ... ty&f=false). Whether we like it or not, this is historical fact and the actions of an infallible Imam cannot be questioned as he is always on the path of the Holy Quran and the Sunna of his forefather the Holy Messenger of God (SAW). In fact there are records of Sunni Islamic fatwas legitimising hunting, stating that it is permissible for rulers to do so for reasons of amusement, distraction and relaxation (not that these fatwas can be used as a benchmark for Fatimid beliefs) (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6V9 ... ng&f=false).

Artefacts from the Fatimid era have survived to present day, many of which include depictions of hunting in addition historical accounts of such artefacts. A key example is that of Syedna Nasir Khusraw (RA), the Hujjat of Badakshan and student of Imam al Mustansir's (AS) Bab al Abwab, Syedna al Muayyad al Shirazi (RA). He very vividly describes the throne of Imam Mustansir (AS) which had images of hunting inscribed on the sides. If hunting was forbidden, Imam al Mustansir (AS) would not have had such images inscribed on his own throne (http://www.amaana.org/history/history4.htm).

Based on these proofs, it has been established that the Fatimid Imams (AS) did indeed hunt for reasons other than sustenance. Therefore, as it is the belief of all Bohras that the Dai al Mutlaq and his two subordinates represent the Imam in seclusion in the Period of Concealment, it would not be wrong at all if the Dai (along with his entourage) was to go hunting. The people who lived during Fatimid times would dare not question or doubt the Imam's actions.

Unless you are willing to risk criticising the Fatimid Imams (AS), you cannot criticise the Dai al Mutlaq for going hunting. If you do not like it, tough luck.

.لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ

T.H

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:51 am**

Can the author of above research site examples where he sourced that Hamza AS was a hunter and show evidence that the Prophet SAW or the early companions or ahlul bayt practised hunting for pleasure

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:12 am**

Forget about your ismaili bull crap, look at this from humanity view.

is it okay to have blood bath in innocent animal bloods for trophies and for unwanted photo shoot?

First be human then try to be muslim or ismaili.

btw from where does syedna gets money to pay jungle authorities to kill these animals? this money belongs to community and not for ayyashi of syedna. he doesn't have any businesses to pay these bills, poor of community pays for all his ayyashi.

Community don't have any free hospitals/schools/loans for businesses while these leaders waste money for hunting?

show some shame and stop defending these criminals.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:27 am**

Prophet Muhammed(salawatullah alai salaam) is biggest authority in ISLAM, and this is his views on killing of innocent animals, now decide by yourself.

Prophet [S.A.W] said: "No human being kills a sparrow or [something] larger, without right, except that Allah will ask him about it (hold him responsible!) on the Day of Judgement." It was said: O Prophet of Allah! What is its right? He said: " Its right is that you slaughter it and eat it, not that you decapitate it!" (Al-Nasa'i, 7/ 207)

Prophet [S.A.W] said: "A woman who tied a cat will go to Hellfire; she neither fed it, nor allowed it to find food on its own." (Al-Bukhari)

The story of Prophet Nuh and the Flood also confirms the utmost care to prevent the extinction of any species. Allah commanded him to carry a pair of every species in the ark: "…We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female…" Qur'an, 11:40

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:43 am**

Bohra spring wrote:Can the author of above research site examples where he sourced that Hamza AS was a hunter and show evidence that the Prophet SAW or the early companions or ahlul bayt practised hunting for pleasure

Hamza, while returning from a hunting expedition, passed by the same way, his bow hanging by his shoulder. A slave-girl belonging to ‘Abdullah bin Jada‘an, who had noted the rudeness of Abu Jahl, told him the whole story of the attack on the Prophet . On hearing that, Hamza was deeply offended and hurried to Al-Ka‘bah and there, in the courtyard of the Holy Sanctuary, found Abu Jahl sitting with a company of Quraishites. Hamza rushed upon him and struck his bow upon his head violently and said: "Ah! You have been abusing Mohammed ; I too follow his religion and profess what he preaches."

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/new/inde ... n-of-allah

Even if this is the only record of a companion hunting, it does not change the fact that the Fatimid Imam al Aziz AS and al Amir AS hunted as well. So Bohras simply cannot criticise the Dai, without risking criticising the Imams AS

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:48 am**

TaherH21 wrote:
Bohra spring wrote:Can the author of above research site examples where he sourced that Hamza AS was a hunter and show evidence that the Prophet SAW or the early companions or ahlul bayt practised hunting for pleasure
Hamza, while returning from a hunting expedition, passed by the same way, his bow hanging by his shoulder. A slave-girl belonging to ‘Abdullah bin Jada‘an, who had noted the rudeness of Abu Jahl, told him the whole story of the attack on the Prophet . On hearing that, Hamza was deeply offended and hurried to Al-Ka‘bah and there, in the courtyard of the Holy Sanctuary, found Abu Jahl sitting with a company of Quraishites. Hamza rushed upon him and struck his bow upon his head violently and said: "Ah! You have been abusing Mohammed ; I too follow his religion and profess what he preaches."

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/new/inde ... n-of-allah

Even if this is the only record of a companion hunting, it does not change the fact that the Fatimid Imam al Aziz AS and al Amir AS hunted as well. So Bohras simply cannot criticise the Dai, without risking criticising the Imams AS

Was Hamza (A) also paying 50,000 USD to jungle authority by looting it from people?

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:49 am**

Al-Noor wrote:Prophet Muhammed(salawatullah alai salaam) is biggest authority in ISLAM, and this is his views on killing of innocent animals, now decide by yourself.

Prophet [S.A.W] said: "No human being kills a sparrow or [something] larger, without right, except that Allah will ask him about it (hold him responsible!) on the Day of Judgement." It was said: O Prophet of Allah! What is its right? He said: " Its right is that you slaughter it and eat it, not that you decapitate it!" (Al-Nasa'i, 7/ 207)

Prophet [S.A.W] said: "A woman who tied a cat will go to Hellfire; she neither fed it, nor allowed it to find food on its own." (Al-Bukhari)

The story of Prophet Nuh and the Flood also confirms the utmost care to prevent the extinction of any species. Allah commanded him to carry a pair of every species in the ark: "…We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female…" Qur'an, 11:40

The books of our Sunni brothers are not relevant to Fatimid-Ismaili beliefs, with all due respect.

Now regarding the Ayah you posted, no Imam or Dai is advocating the extinction of animals....

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:50 am**

Al-Noor wrote:
TaherH21 wrote:
Hamza, while returning from a hunting expedition, passed by the same way, his bow hanging by his shoulder. A slave-girl belonging to ‘Abdullah bin Jada‘an, who had noted the rudeness of Abu Jahl, told him the whole story of the attack on the Prophet . On hearing that, Hamza was deeply offended and hurried to Al-Ka‘bah and there, in the courtyard of the Holy Sanctuary, found Abu Jahl sitting with a company of Quraishites. Hamza rushed upon him and struck his bow upon his head violently and said: "Ah! You have been abusing Mohammed ; I too follow his religion and profess what he preaches."

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/new/inde ... n-of-allah

Even if this is the only record of a companion hunting, it does not change the fact that the Fatimid Imam al Aziz AS and al Amir AS hunted as well. So Bohras simply cannot criticise the Dai, without risking criticising the Imams AS
Was Hamza (A) also paying 50,000 USD to jungle authority by looting it from people?

okay by this logic lets not criticize Hunting but lets criticize ayyashi and waste of money by burhanuddin and mufaddal.

are you happy now?

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:53 am**

When ever HAQ is said it becomes irrelevant for our kothari *brothers....

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:54 am**

Al-Noor wrote:Forget about your ismaili bull crap, look at this from humanity view.

is it okay to have blood bath in innocent animal bloods for trophies and for unwanted photo shoot?

First be human then try to be muslim or ismaili.

btw from where does syedna gets money to pay jungle authorities to kill these animals? this money belongs to community and not for ayyashi of syedna. he doesn't have any businesses to pay these bills, poor of community pays for all his ayyashi.

Community don't have any free hospitals/schools/loans for businesses while these leaders waste money for hunting?

show some shame and stop defending these criminals.

There is no need to insult Ismaili beliefs by saying its "bull crap". That was uncalled for with all due respect.

We have no right to question the finances of the Dai just we didn't have the right to question those of the Imam AS.

Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA the esteemed Hujjat and Chief Justice of Imam al Muiz SA states the following in his Kitab-ul-Himma fi Adabi Ataba-el-a’emma: “God has laid down in His Holy Book that it is our duty to obey them. He has associated the devotion to the Imams with devotion to Him and devotion to the Prophet by saying Obey God, the Prophet and your Spiritual Leaders.” The noble Hujjat RA says further: “The Imams have every right to test their followers by asking them to part with their properties or to probe their loyalty by different means.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:59 am**

wow I am just speechless to this, I will let someone with more tolerance to bull crap to reply. (btw this is exactly what asharam bapu expects from his followers, complete submission

)

Quran teaches to question every thing and make sure not to give away to satan and his fairy tales while these guys are asking for complete submission without any conditions, I personally will stick with Quran.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:53 pm**

Killing for fun is wrong, at any level of human understanding.

Shame on you for sitting on some solid proof ThairH1N1 . Dont forget to hold your Masters hand on the judgement day.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:33 pm**

What Taher bhai is suggesting that the actions of Hamza AS suprcedes the Quran , and Prophet's SAW advice ...he does not include or endorse the source if Sunni , while his is Shia.It is a matter of judgement ...one wants to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet or instead Jardani, or Hamza

My next question was still not answred ...is there any evidence that Ali ibn Talib AS went hunting for pleasure?

I will hold my comments t of the Imams until we see if Ali, Hassan or Husain went hunting g !

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:35 pm**

The problem with abdes is that they cherry pick Hadiths which suits them and defends their master's inhuman acts. They will go all out to question Sunni Hadiths and claim it to be forged but when it comes to Bohraism, they will vouch for its authenticity..... Sheer double standards !!

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:48 pm**

Bohra spring wrote:is there any evidence that Ali ibn Talib AS went hunting for pleasure?

Let him also show a single instance wherein Prophet (s.a.w.) indulged in hunting for fun, pleasure and sport. Sunni/Shia Hadiths are always questionable as they were written more then 2 centuries after Prophet (s.a.w.) left for heavenly abode and the ONLY reliable source is Quran so let him prove his point from the divine scripture rather then literatures which are questionable.

Abdes use these same texts to justify the ayyashi and opulent lifestyle of their Dai by citing examples of past Imams who too allegedly lived the same way but they conveniently omit the fact that Imams of those times were like kings/monarchs who governed vast provinces, hence they could have maintained some standards of living whereas the Dai is not a king (only a self proclaimed Sultan) and rules no such provinces, he is a mere vicegerent whose job is to give Dawat and is also much much lower in rank as compared to Imams.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:15 pm**

Sometimes I do wonder if it is this very oppulent and luxurious lifestyle that keeps getting quoted as an example of how our Imams lived to justify the present day excesses is also the very reason Allah SWT "punished" them by ending it when it did.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:25 pm**

Bohra spring wrote:What Taher bhai is suggesting that the actions of Hamza AS suprcedes the Quran , and Prophet's SAW advice ...he does not include or endorse the source if Sunni , while his is Shia.It is a matter of judgement ...one wants to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet or instead Jardani, or Hamza

My next question was still not answred ...is there any evidence that Ali ibn Talib AS went hunting for pleasure?

I will hold my comments t of the Imams until we see if Ali, Hassan or Husain went hunting g !

Please do not get the wrong idea from what I stated.

I hold the Quran absolutely supreme, above all texts, as the primary source of law.

After it, is the Sunna of the Messenger SAW, and after that, the Sunna of Ali AS, and after that the Sunna of the Imams AS (and in their seclusion the Du'at Mutlaqeen RA).

I personally cannot find evidence Maulana Ali AS going hunting, nor of Imams Hassan and Husain AS. It does not mean it does not exist.

But as I said before, the fact remains that the Fatimid Imams AS did hunt. They, being infallible would not have done it if it was wrong.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:38 pm**

The focus is on Hamza (r.a.) and he is alleged to be a vivid hunter. Even if we presume that he was one then too there are no literatures to prove that he did it for pleasure !! It could well have been for consumption as its very difficult to digest the fact that a person of his stature could indulge in such types of activities which the Prophet (s.a.w.) himself was averse to. It does not require rocket science to figure out that killing of endangered species just for fun is totally inhuman and no divine religion could ever permit it.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:01 pm**

ghulam muhammed wrote:
Bohra spring wrote:is there any evidence that Ali ibn Talib AS went hunting for pleasure?
Let him also show a single instance wherein Prophet (s.a.w.) indulged in hunting for fun, pleasure and sport. Sunni/Shia Hadiths are always questionable as they were written more then 2 centuries after Prophet (s.a.w.) left for heavenly abode and the ONLY reliable source is Quran so let him prove his point from the divine scripture rather then literatures which are questionable.

Abdes use these same texts to justify the ayyashi and opulent lifestyle of their Dai by citing examples of past Imams who too allegedly lived the same way but they conveniently omit the fact that Imams of those times were like kings/monarchs who governed vast provinces, hence they could have maintained some standards of living whereas the Dai is not a king (only a self proclaimed Sultan) and rules no such provinces, he is a mere vicegerent whose job is to give Dawat and is also much much lower in rank as compared to Imams.

I cannot find such evidence, I do fully admit, as I am not a scholar, just someone who has read up on the issue.

While I hold the Quran as absolutely supreme, it does not mean other texts are questionable. Everything Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA wrote was verified by Imam al Muiz AS. He being infallible would not let Syedna RA write anything wrong.

Now regarding their "opulent" lifestyle, may I point out that many Du'at RA and Hudood RA after the concealment of Imam al Tyeb AS were actually kings or held royal titles. Syedna al Khattaab RA (the Mazoon of Syedna Zoeb RA) was the Sultan of Hajur and Baron of Jurayb (according Abbas Hamdani). Most of the Yemeni Du'at RA were in fact rulers themselves. Just because recent Du'at RA were not worldly rulers, does not mean they cannot hold royal titles. In fact, the British themselves conferred royal titles to several Indian Dais --- Refer to Farhad Daftary's books on Ismailis. Also I am pretty sure it was al Azhar University that conferred the title "Sultan al Bohra" on Syedna Burhanuddin RA anyway.

You are right that the rank of Dai is lower than that of the Imam, but in the Period of Concealment, The Dai al Mutlaq and his two subordinates represent the Imam according to Syedna Jafar bin Mansur al Yaman RA (who by the way, being the Bab al Abwab is actually infallible according to our 5th Dai RA). The Dai al Mutlaq occupies the "maqam" of the Imam. This is the core of Bohra doctrine. There is nothing "mere" about it.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:06 pm**

ghulam muhammed wrote:The focus is on Hamza (r.a.) and he is alleged to be a vivid hunter. Even if we presume that he was one then too there are no literatures to prove that he did it for pleasure !! It could well have been for consumption as its very difficult to digest the fact that a person of his stature could indulge in such types of activities which the Prophet (s.a.w.) himself was averse to. It does not require rocket science to figure out that killing of endangered species just for fun is totally inhuman and no divine religion could ever permit it.

What I am trying to get across is that the Holy Prophet SAW was not averse to it, at least according to Fatimid-Ismaili beliefs.

It is well recorded in both Shia and Sunni works that Maulana Hamza AS did hunt lions. I doubt the lions were consumed.

Refer to this Twelver Shia website:

http://www.al-islam.org/hamza-bin-abdul ... l-muttalib

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:54 pm**

Taherbhai I appreciate your honesty

I have to state GM bhai pointed out rightly it is not evident that Hamza AS was a trophy hunter and as he stated probably enjoyed eating game meat like I do I enjoy eating Impala , buffalo , African game for bbq . Lion meat is edible but in out times haram and socially unacceptable . When did the aya regarding what meat was permitted arrive , before or after the event, eg Alcohol was disallowed after Some years .

Regarding Imams 200 years later being infallible is a matter of belief but then if their actions were divinely guided one wonders their empire collapsed too and was that divinely predetermined , while at the same time Islam or Sunni belief was expanding exponential . If opulence had consumed their piousness did that result in the downgrade of their dynasty ?

Would I be stretching the discussion that it is concerning the Imams if true would indulge in opulence just be cause they can , their role was to serve Allah swt 24x7 hence even if they were kings and emperors they were governors and leaders, increase islamic content and whatever left to worship their creator as dictated in Quran so where did they get time to go stalking animals to kill for pleasure to celebrate and enjoy . You know I am not suggesting they cannot relax to take sleep, spend time with their famy to laugh and talk , that is being human.

Imams cannot and if someone narrates cannit contradict sunnah or Quran , so most likely the evidence is false . If not then this results in Imam being false.

I have not met Imams and I seek forgiveness if I have accused them that is not my intent but unfortunately the evidence presented takes us Fien that path, but what I am trying to do is question the basis of evidence being presented to justify SMS actions .

Posted: **Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:06 pm**

TaherH21 wrote:
ghulam muhammed wrote:The focus is on Hamza (r.a.) and he is alleged to be a vivid hunter. Even if we presume that he was one then too there are no literatures to prove that he did it for pleasure !! It could well have been for consumption as its very difficult to digest the fact that a person of his stature could indulge in such types of activities which the Prophet (s.a.w.) himself was averse to. It does not require rocket science to figure out that killing of endangered species just for fun is totally inhuman and no divine religion could ever permit it.

What I am trying to get across is that the Holy Prophet SAW was not averse to it, at least according to Fatimid-Ismaili beliefs.

It is well recorded in both Shia and Sunni works that Maulana Hamza AS did hunt lions. I doubt the lions were consumed.

Refer to this Twelver Shia website:

http://www.al-islam.org/hamza-bin-abdul ... l-muttalib

Now see what the website says :-

Al-Hamza set off for the hills overlooking Makkah. His strong horse was going up the sand hills. It was galloping along the valleys. Al-Hamza was looking carefully at the lovely scenery.

The sky was blue and clear. The hills were covered with sunshine. So the grains of sand were glittering in the sun.

Al-Hamza was thinking about our Master Muhammad's mission. His heart was with Allah's Apostle. He was repeating to himself:

Really there's no god but Allah. Al-Lat, al-Uzza and Munat are rocks. Man has made them with his hand. So why does he worship them?

The horse was roaming through the desert. The horse ran away when it saw a man holding a bow and looking for the lions. THIS DOES NOT SAY AL-HAMZA (R.A.) WAS HOLDING A BOW AND LOOKING FOR LIONS, IT JUST SAYS THE HORSE RAN AWAY WHEN IT SAW A "MAN" HOLDING A BOW. BTW... WASN'T HAMZA(R.A.) RIDING THE HORSE ??

Now, even if you presume that the horse saw Hamza (r.a.) then too the incident appears to have taken place BEFORE Hamza (r.a.) accepted Islam... Read this from the same site :- While al-Hamza was in tears, he embraced our Master Muhammad [s]. Our Master Muhammad [s] became happy when his uncle al-Hamza became Muslim.

So, he named him the Lion of Allah and the Lion of His Apostle.

Hence, even if Hamza (r.a.) was allegedly fond of hunting then it was BEFORE he embraced Islam !!

Posted: **Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:15 pm**

TaherH21 wrote:Everything Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA wrote was verified by Imam al Muiz AS. He being infallible would not let Syedna RA write anything wrong.

In this case as well as in cases of other Hadiths I do not doubt the credibility of people to whom the narrations are attributed to but the only serious doubts are with regard to the publishers of such texts who in every likelihood could have distorted the sayings as there are no original scriptures written by the noble narrators available to anyone and any hadiths which contradicts Quran should not be given any credence !!

Posted: **Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:32 pm**

Photos of endangered animals shine on Empire State Building

NEW YORK -- Dozens of people stopped in Manhattan intersections gazing at photos of endangered animals shining on the side of the Empire State Building.

Organizers say the Saturday night event was a first-of-its-kind live video projection.

It drew large crowds of spectators, many taking photos with their smartphones.

Images of endangered animals, including birds, tigers, bears and other creatures, shined on the south side of one of the city's most iconic landmarks.

The event was meant to spark conversations about mass extinction.

It was organized as part of a promotion for a new Discovery Channel documentary, Racing Extinction, which is set to air in December.

http://7online.com/pets/watch-endangere ... ideoplayer

Posted: **Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:56 pm**

TaherH21 wrote: While I hold the Quran as absolutely supreme, it does not mean other texts are questionable. Everything Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA wrote was verified by Imam al Muiz AS. He being infallible would not let Syedna RA write anything wrong.

Before I point out the severe flaws in the reasoning of TaherH21, I want to say that religion is the refuge of the scoundrel. It is very evident, that the reasoning by TaherH21 is a post-hoc justification for behavior what any sane person would condemn, specially when it comes from the leader of a religious group. Nothing can justify the killing of lions, elephants, water buffalo or any other endangered species by a da'i. No references to so-and-so literature, no amount of references to conservation articles. Nothing.

Now, the most significant mistake is the above statement by TaherH21. The only book that is without errors is the Qur'an. That is it. No other book, written by anyone else can be flawless or without errors. Even if Qadi Nauman wrote under the supervision of the Imam, that does not mean he did not make errors, or that his reasoning is eternal or valid for ever.

For example, in the Ikhwan as-Safa, there are long descriptions of cosmology, mathematics and other scientific fields. These were supposedly written by Imam Ahmad al-Mastuur, or under his supervision. However, the whole edifice of science in it is wrong, and so outdated that is almost irrelevant today. For example, they did not know of the existence of the outer planets, put the Earth at the center of everything, thought the stars occupied a "fixed sphere" and so on and so forth. Their idea on origins of the universe were 100% wrong.

Now, if the writers of the Ikhwan as-Safa were alive today, they would agree with me, and say that yes, we should adjust our beliefs and knowledge according to the times. Sticking to the old-fashioned Ptolemaic astronomy is to remain forever in the past. It does not behove us, who the Qur'an commands to marvel (which means explore) the wonders of Nature, to remain ignorant fools.

Now, if even the Imams and da'is got questions of physical sciences wrong, how much more likely is it that they got some questions of ethics wrong? For example, yes, it may be legal to hunt big-game like lions, but the question remains: is it ethical? We are not talking about the actions of a private individual, but of a leader, someone who should be setting an example for others. What type of example is the da'i setting, when he goes and hunts a lion or elephant for fun? I mean, what do we tell our children when we visit a zoo or a safari? That these beautiful creatures are made for pleasure of the rich and powerful da'i, to satisfy his lust, hunger and greed? At the end of the day, it is nothing but lust that makes one kill beautiful creatures.

If we look at the Qur'an, we notice the that very first thing it says is that Allah is Compassionate and Merciful. We say this phrase before everything we do. Can you imagine the da'i saying this and the very next moment using a bullet to kill a lion!?

I want to point out something which not everyone may know. The word "ar-rahman" actually encompasses both the believer and the unbeliever, and encompasses all created beings. Hence, it is translated as "Compassionate" and not "Gracious" as it should. The word "ar-rahim" includes the believers only, and hence is rendered "Merciful".

Looking deeper, what this means is that Allah extends his compassion to everyone, believers and unbelievers, animals and plants. The unbeliever is given a chance to accept the message of the prophet, and earn jaanat for himself. This is compassion for him. The animals and plants are given Allah's protection by being put under the protection of humans. These creatures are unable to respond to the linguistic message of the Qur'an and hence must be protected by others who can, that is us.

In this way, we learn that we must protect the animals and plants from wanton destruction. What this also means is that it is totally unethical for a da'i to go hunting for pleasure. There is no justification, and the da'i is doing things which will take him further from the mercy of Allah.

Some people say that the fees of hunting helps in conservation. That may be true, and perhaps a valid excuse for an ordinary private citizen. However, it does not apply to a public figure like a da'i. If the da'i is so concerned about conservation, he should just donate the money he would spend on a hunt to the conservation agency. By going on the hunt, he is showing that yes, I want to help conservation, but only if I get to satisfy my lust also. That is unacceptable behavior from a da'i. No excuses.

In short: no textual evidence can override the Compassion of Allah (Q 1:1). No da'i, no Imam no one. Compassion extends to all creatures. Hence, it behoves a da'i to control his lust and not engage in unethical things like big game hunting. He should instead go on sight-seeing safari, or donate large sums of money to conservation agencies.

Also, da'i's followers should not feel compelled to defend everything he does. Sometimes da'i can make mistakes. Don't quote or mis-quote so-and-so book and partake in his crime of killing innocent creatures. Don't be a scoundrel who takes refuge in religion.

Posted: **Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:58 pm**

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Link to an article I came across related to this topic. She even quotes vague lines from the Bible justifying her hunting.

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/hun ... lsignoutmd

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The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

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Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport

Re: The Quran on hunting and killing of animals for sport