Dawoodi Bohra Forum

STS started these hunting trips and after him SMB took them with vigor, all the sons of SMB have been avid hunters. Does any one know or has seen Khuzema Qutbuddin to hunt wildlife? as far as i know i have not seen him or his sons indulge in any kind of leisure activities practiced by SMB's sons.

asad wrote:STS started these hunting trips and after him SMB took them with vigor, all the sons of SMB have been avid hunters. Does any one know or has seen Khuzema Qutbuddin to hunt wildlife? as far as i know i have not seen him or his sons indulge in any kind of leisure activities practiced by SMB's sons.

yes exactly so does it means he was aware that this is wrong going on? does it means SMB was not really masoom as he claimed all his life? this is million dollar questions.

and if these guys are not masoom and mutlaq KQ must give away this fancy title and accept he is a nizaam of community, if he does this I give him misaaq today.

TRUTH must be spoken to world lies cannot sustain any more..

Idaho woman comes under fire for celebrating her killing of giraffe

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/ ... AW20150804

There is nothing wrong in hunting. The Dai and his family need to go for job hunting. Hunt for honest days work. Just like most momins. Partaking in others peoples fortunes makes dumb parasitic family.

watsup msg

Forwarded as Received :-

This is not to cause offence to anyone, its merely to lead to discussion and practice of we the Dawoodi Bohras and our Mola No.53. The picture below is of Eland Antelope. It was shot dead during the wild game hunt. It took place recently in Burigi Game Reserve in Kagera region of Tanzania. The Kagera region borders Mwanza region where many Dawoodi Bohras reside. The meat of this Eland Antelope was sent to Mwanza bohras as BARKATI GOSHT for their FMB thaali jaman. Now what you see is that the animal has been shot dead and his throat or neck is not cut. I am told that Muffy and his entourage also consumed this meat as "Mishkaki".... Mishkaki is the swahil language word for mutton boti. I want bohras who call themselves Muslims to think carefully whether this meat is 'Halal' or 'Haraam'. I debated with one Dar es Salam sheikh and he told me that "Mola nu shikar Halal che, Zabeh karvaani zaroorat nathi"..... Now THINK logically whether this is right or wrong.

I pray to Allah to guide me and other Bohras to the right path.

A post which appeared on the forum on Sat Nov 08, 2008 :-

Subject: "FOLLOWERS OF SULTAN-UL-BOHRA" sent you a message on Facebook...

Shikaar akhbar

A summary of shikaar safar of huzer e aala 1429 (as collected from different sources)

Theme of 1429 shikar trip was MASWA JUNGLE ONCE MORE.

As aqa moula arrived in the same jungle of 1428 shikar trip on Wednesday 22nd of October. Aqa moula arrived in maswa jungle in a charter plane.

The first shikar was itself an ejaaz of huzur e aala as it was the hunt of an enormous elephant which was described by the professional hunter as one of the best trophies in Tanzanian history.

As it was very huge and had one of the longest task ever seen in Tanzanian jungle, also the hunt was an ejaaz as hunting of elephant in that particular block was banned by the block owner and the government, but it was just the respect and shaan of huzur e aala, that government and the block owner gave the permission just to aqa moula to hunt elephant.

After that two huge size buffalos were shot by shehzada sahebs, aqa moula after magrib came to have a look at them and said "HAWEY LION BAAQI CHE".

After that aqa moula hunted a buffalo, and an ostrich was shot by shehzada saheb, also some Thomson (Gazelle), Elen, Topi (Damaliskus lunatus) , were shot by qasre ali sahebs.

Hizb-us-saeed gave zyafat to Aqa moula on Saturday night, and also for ziyafat and maqdam of aqa moula were held together by dare es salaam jamat and momineen.

Aqa moula did bayan and especially said;

"Aaa aale rasul ni rida ane baitul batul ni ata tamne yaqinan jannat ma pohchawi desey, tame tamara bawa shafeeq ne khush karwa waste kisam kisam ni khidmat karo chho jaan si, maal si, zaat si.. garaz ekaj chhe ke moula khush thai jaay, aaj me tamne kahu chu ke me tamara si ghano khush chhu, tame saghla ye ghanu behter intezam kidu hatu 'extra ordinary' ".

Aqa moula stayed for 12 days and it was the second longest stay of aqa moula in any jungle.

May allah grant our beloved moula a long and prosperous life till the day of qayamat. Aameen

Who is that headless guy wearing sports topi?

Allah fearing people who know they have to answer to Allah for killing his creatures, would never even dream of killing animals for fun. Remember history. one daty the Rasul was passing by and saw a cat shivering in the weather, guess what the rasul did and what Allah liked; the rasool took his shawl and wrapped it around the cat to save a life that only allah gives and only Allah can take. And here we have a hard hearted so called bogus muslim religious leader who goes on a hunting spree. Are the bohri mumineen listening? This guy muffy is a fake and so was his father and his fathers father. People who fear Allahs wrath are always humble and merciful. Do you all think that travelling in chartered planes , hop skipping all over the world , when mumineen are dyeing and are in need of help; and going around killing animals is humble and merciful? He and his gang of thieves make certain with all the false propaganda that he is looked upon as all holy poly. His actions should open your eyes to the truth. He is just another Hitler without a portfolio making a fool of the bohri religion and mumineen.

husain_angry wrote:Who is that headless guy wearing sports topi?

That headless guy wearing sports topi is Malik Chuster The Hajam.

And I guess if he is truly what he claims he is, He should try to kneel down lion or any wild animal without using guns with his bare hands

His belief is not in Allah. He is not suleman nabi or Dawood nabi. He is just a puppet of the politicians and chief money grabber of the mumineen; his job is to feed the dirty politicians so they can shut up and let him do his thing; which is rob the mumineen blind.

I would like to reiterate my argument again, with reference to the Practice of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt, the Fatimid Caliphs AS.

Ibn Muyassar, Ibn al Athir, Ibn Khallikan and al Maqrizi; all state the Caliph al Aziz (AS), our fifteenth Imam used to excel at lion hunting and was a great patron of the sport (http://www.academia.edu/6711858/Title_A ... a_Islamica).

Al Maqrizi clearly states: “On his return from the hunt, the Caliph entered the city of Cairo preceded by a lion which lay on a mule” (https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/ ... 1.pdf?...1). He even spent 50,000 dinars on birds of prey in his court, according to most Mamluk historians (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PRc ... ng&f=false).

One of the Imam's (AS) slaves even compiled a book on the rules of hunting and its religious legitimacy. He stresses that there are two types of hunters: "the underclass that hunts for gain and the prince that hunts for pleasure." (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6V9 ... id&f=false )

According the book "State and Society in Fatimid Egypt", Caliph al Amir (AS), our twentieth Imam, also went on hunting expeditions, on one occasion he stayed at a Christian monastery where he built a pavilion and donated large sums of money to the local monks (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I2L ... ty&f=false).

In fact there are records of Sunni Islamic fatwas legitimising hunting, stating that it is permissible for rulers to do so for reasons of amusement, distraction and relaxation (not that these fatwas can be used as a benchmark for Fatimid beliefs) (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6V9 ... ng&f=false).

Syedna Jafar bin Mansur al Yaman RA has clearly stated that the Imam is present through the Dai al Mutlaq and his two subordinates.

Unless you are willing to risk criticising the Fatimid Imams (AS), you cannot criticise the Dai al Mutlaq for going hunting. Can any Progressive/Reformist Bohra (not Sunni or follower of any other Madhhab of Islam) actually refute these historical facts?

H21

I don't know if they are facts as in actual historical records , they are narations

what you are presenting are statements that imply the Imam in discussions is allegedly going outside the Islamic teachings of The Prophet SAW value and Quranic instructions and legitimised sport hunting .

to discuss whether that Imam is permitted to change laws is a whole new topic.

I cannot accept your position because if I did then I would take the Imams practises as described via narations superior to my undertsanding of the Quran and widely practised behaviours. That in itself makes me contradict Quran principles which I will not .If you are asking what is superior Quran, Prophet's lifestyle vs Imams, for discussion say they are different, then I will choose Quran and the Prophet SAW side without regret.

I as said previously provide benefit of doubt to fact the initial Imams were extremely pious Muslims, whose purpose was dawaat, moderation etc etc , who would never individually go outside the Sunnah and Quran. Now will we go digging into history whether they as humans erred or not is not worthwhile discussion

Delicate line we are crossing ....what your are going down the path of let us justify sms actions at whatever cost , so he can continue his relaxation as you noted.

There is something called context which TaherH21 bhai is conveniently omitting in his zeal to defend Dai's actions.

If you are quoting examples of the Imams, how about going back all the way to Moula Ali AS - it is well documented/narrated that he used to wear old clothes and used to eat flour. So shouldn't his Dai do as he did?

a point by k.m. well worth considering. one cannot pick and choose from history what one likes and make it o.k. so , and so imam did it ,so it is o.k. if I as a dai did it. Ithat being the case, let alone the dai we have the aga khan imam with a storng following and it is no secret that he and his followers do not fast during ramadan. An argument can be made " let the bohris do the same also, since imam is a higher order than the dai.

Bohra spring wrote:H21

I don't know if they are facts as in actual historical records , they are narations

what you are presenting are statements that imply the Imam in discussions is allegedly going outside the Islamic teachings of The Prophet SAW value and Quranic instructions and legitimised sport hunting .

to discuss whether that Imam is permitted to change laws is a whole new topic.

I cannot accept your position because if I did then I would take the Imams practises as described via narations superior to my undertsanding of the Quran and widely practised behaviours. That in itself makes me contradict Quran principles which I will not .If you are asking what is superior Quran, Prophet's lifestyle vs Imams, for discussion say they are different, then I will choose Quran and the Prophet SAW side without regret.

I as said previously provide benefit of doubt to fact the initial Imams were extremely pious Muslims, whose purpose was dawaat, moderation etc etc , who would never individually go outside the Sunnah and Quran. Now will we go digging into history whether they as humans erred or not is not worthwhile discussion

Delicate line we are crossing ....what your are going down the path of let us justify sms actions at whatever cost , so he can continue his relaxation as you noted.

@Bohra Spring

I really do understand what you mean, and I accept that according to other Madhhabs hunting for sport is not allowed. But I likewise, cannot agree with your points.

Our Madhhab is the Fatimid-Ismaili Madhhab. We believe in the concept of infallibility. The Imams AS would not ever commit sin. They are always on the path of the Sunna of the Prophet SAW and the path of the Quran.

I fully agree with you that Quran is superior, followed by Sunna of the Prophet SAW and then the Imams AS.

According to Fatimid-Ismaili sources, there is no evidence at all, that hunting for reasons other than sustenance, is forbidden. We must understand this.

We have to hold on to Fatimid teachings and Fatimid teachings alone (i.e.: Fatimid interpretations of Quran, Sunna)

To quote our 5th Dai, Syedna Ali RA: ."..there is only one, of a single branch, that concerns us, and that is the name Ismā‘īliyya.....This is our inherent name. It is our honour and our glory before all of the other branches of Islam, because we stand on the Path of the Truth, in following our guides – the Imāms. We drink at an abundant fountain, and we hold firmly to the guiding lines of their walāyah. Thus they cause us to climb from rank to rank among the degrees of proximity and excellence.”

TaherH21 wrote:Our Madhhab is the Fatimid-Ismaili Madhhab. We believe in the concept of infallibility. The Imams AS would not ever commit sin. They are always on the path of the Sunna of the Prophet SAW and the path of the Quran.

Which part of the Sunnah and which part of Quranic ayats permits hunting for pleasure, sport and photo ops ?

This foolish Abde apologist of Dawedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (DMMS) has completely ignored my argument and continued to rant on and on about how Fatimid Imams did this and that. It is of no importance what the Imams did or did not do. Not all their actions are Sunnah, to be followed or emulated. Imams also had slaves. Should we bring back slavery? As I show below, there is no Quranic justification for hunting. Rather the opposite is true. Hence, if the Fatimid Imams did something which contradicts the Quran, they are, in brief, wrong. I am reproducing my message for this DMMS foot-licker again:

TaherH21 wrote: While I hold the Quran as absolutely supreme, it does not mean other texts are questionable. Everything Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA wrote was verified by Imam al Muiz AS. He being infallible would not let Syedna RA write anything wrong.

Before I point out the severe flaws in the reasoning of TaherH21, I want to say that religion is the refuge of the scoundrel. It is very evident, that the reasoning by TaherH21 is a post-hoc justification for behavior what any sane person would condemn, specially when it comes from the leader of a religious group. Nothing can justify the killing of lions, elephants, water buffalo or any other endangered species by a da'i. No references to so-and-so literature, no amount of references to conservation articles. Nothing.

Now, the most significant mistake is the above statement by TaherH21. The only book that is without errors is the Qur'an. That is it. No other book, written by anyone else can be flawless or without errors. Even if Qadi Nauman wrote under the supervision of the Imam, that does not mean he did not make errors, or that his reasoning is eternal or valid for ever.

For example, in the Ikhwan as-Safa, there are long descriptions of cosmology, mathematics and other scientific fields. These were supposedly written by Imam Ahmad al-Mastuur, or under his supervision. However, the whole edifice of science in it is wrong, and so outdated that is almost irrelevant today. For example, they did not know of the existence of the outer planets, put the Earth at the center of everything, thought the stars occupied a "fixed sphere" and so on and so forth. Their idea on origins of the universe were 100% wrong.

Now, if the writers of the Ikhwan as-Safa were alive today, they would agree with me, and say that yes, we should adjust our beliefs and knowledge according to the times. Sticking to the old-fashioned Ptolemaic astronomy is to remain forever in the past. It does not behove us, who the Qur'an commands to marvel (which means explore) the wonders of Nature, to remain ignorant fools.

Now, if even the Imams and da'is got questions of physical sciences wrong, how much more likely is it that they got some questions of ethics wrong? For example, yes, it may be legal to hunt big-game like lions, but the question remains: is it ethical? We are not talking about the actions of a private individual, but of a leader, someone who should be setting an example for others. What type of example is the da'i setting, when he goes and hunts a lion or elephant for fun? I mean, what do we tell our children when we visit a zoo or a safari? That these beautiful creatures are made for pleasure of the rich and powerful da'i, to satisfy his lust, hunger and greed? At the end of the day, it is nothing but lust that makes one kill beautiful creatures.

If we look at the Qur'an, we notice the that very first thing it says is that Allah is Compassionate and Merciful. We say this phrase before everything we do. Can you imagine the da'i saying this and the very next moment using a bullet to kill a lion!?

I want to point out something which not everyone may know. The word "ar-rahman" actually encompasses both the believer and the unbeliever, and encompasses all created beings. Hence, it is translated as "Compassionate" and not "Gracious" as it should. The word "ar-rahim" includes the believers only, and hence is rendered "Merciful".

Looking deeper, what this means is that Allah extends his compassion to everyone, believers and unbelievers, animals and plants. The unbeliever is given a chance to accept the message of the prophet, and earn jaanat for himself. This is compassion for him. The animals and plants are given Allah's protection by being put under the protection of humans. These creatures are unable to respond to the linguistic message of the Qur'an and hence must be protected by others who can, that is us.

In this way, we learn that we must protect the animals and plants from wanton destruction. What this also means is that it is totally unethical for a da'i to go hunting for pleasure. There is no justification, and the da'i is doing things which will take him further from the mercy of Allah.

Some people say that the fees of hunting helps in conservation. That may be true, and perhaps a valid excuse for an ordinary private citizen. However, it does not apply to a public figure like a da'i. If the da'i is so concerned about conservation, he should just donate the money he would spend on a hunt to the conservation agency. By going on the hunt, he is showing that yes, I want to help conservation, but only if I get to satisfy my lust also. That is unacceptable behavior from a da'i. No excuses.

In short: no textual evidence can override the Compassion of Allah (Q 1:1). No da'i, no Imam no one. Compassion extends to all creatures. Hence, it behoves a da'i to control his lust and not engage in unethical things like big game hunting. He should instead go on sight-seeing safari, or donate large sums of money to conservation agencies.

Also, da'i's followers should not feel compelled to defend everything he does. Sometimes da'i can make mistakes. Don't quote or mis-quote so-and-so book and partake in his crime of killing innocent creatures. Don't be a scoundrel who takes refuge in religion.

Very well said indeed.

If Imam and so Dai is infallible then how come SMS keeps claiming that ex-Mazoon was a bad person? He was appointed by none other than 52nd Dai RA with the ilham of Imam. If he got appointment of Mazoon wrong, then surely SMS's own appointment has to be wrong!

MUFFY IN MOMBASSA, KENYA...... GETTING PALLY WITH GOVERNMEMNT OFFICIALS FOR HIS NEST SHIKAR TRIP !!!

23rd Shawwal, 1436

ghulam muhammed wrote:

TaherH21 wrote:Our Madhhab is the Fatimid-Ismaili Madhhab. We believe in the concept of infallibility. The Imams AS would not ever commit sin. They are always on the path of the Sunna of the Prophet SAW and the path of the Quran.

Which part of the Sunnah and which part of Quranic ayats permits hunting for pleasure, sport and photo ops ?

Grrrr Muffy Moula is bolta Quran & Haqeeqi Quran. What he says & does is final.

ghulam muhammed wrote:MUFFY IN MOMBASSA, KENYA...... GETTING PALLY WITH GOVERNMEMNT OFFICIALS FOR HIS NEST SHIKAR TRIP !!!

23rd Shawwal, 1436

Hehe look at that walking stick beside him. Trying to ape every bit of his dad. Part of the process to be called "ana ni shaan"

ghulam muhammed wrote:

TaherH21 wrote:Our Madhhab is the Fatimid-Ismaili Madhhab. We believe in the concept of infallibility. The Imams AS would not ever commit sin. They are always on the path of the Sunna of the Prophet SAW and the path of the Quran.

Which part of the Sunnah and which part of Quranic ayats permits hunting for pleasure, sport and photo ops ?

@GM

I cannot personally find any, but are there any Fatimid-Ismaili texts that forbid it? At worst, this makes hunting for reasons other than sustenance “Mubah” (religiously neutral), not haram.

Although the Fatimid-Ismaili position is that it is Halal as the Imams AS practiced it.

Imam Jafar al Sadiq AS said: "...what we consider lawful derives from the Book of God and what we consider unlawful derives from it as well.”

Imam al Hakim AS said: “….Inform them that our intercession is valid for none who are not among those who act in accord with the Book of God, the exalted and the Sunna of His apostle, God bless him and keep him, and by means of our command worship God by obeying us. Proclaim this to the friends of God and of us as our own words.”

Al-Noor wrote:Taher either you are really dumb or you are just too shameless to defend some thing which our prophet has considered bad and asked people to stop it.

@Al Noor,

You are missing the point. The Prophet (SAW) never said anything of the sort according to our Madhhab.

I have already accepted that hunting is not allowed in Sunni Madhhabs and non-Ismaili Shia Madhhabs.

According to Fatimid-Ismaili beliefs, hunting is allowed. I have proven it by giving multiple accounts of at least two Imams (AS) hunting.

Don't forget this is not a Sunni website and with all due respect to them their books and interpretation have no relevance to this argument. In fact this is what it says on this website's own "About Us" section:

"We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb and his progeny, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the rightful successor to the 52nd Dai Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin."

Imam Tayyeb's (AS) father, Imam al Amir (AS) went hunting. He was infallible. You cannot criticise him and still be a Bohra (of any shade). Click on the link if you don't believe me!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I2L ... ty&f=false

I do not want to turn this into an Ismaili vs Sunni debate. Why do you not understand this point?

TaherH21 wrote: According to Fatimid-Ismaili beliefs, hunting is allowed. I have proven it by giving multiple accounts of at least two Imams (AS) hunting.

It makes absolutely no difference. Imam's behavior is not Sunnah for us to follow. They are only infallible as to religious things. Not secular things like hunting etc. The first and only criteria is to test against the Qur'an. The Qur'an clearly and unambiguously preaches a message of compassion for all created things. Hence, sports hunting of big-game species, as I have shown in the post above (which you continue to ignore) in great detail, is illegal and, more importantly, unethical.

Also, if the Imam's were so powerful and infallible in worldy matters, how come the Fatimid Empire collapsed? Imam Mustansir was in such dire straits that he lost control of the empire and had to wait till Sayedna Badrul Jamaali rescued him. Then, in a few more decades the whole thing just collapsed. How come an infallible Imam could not maintain even his grip on his own kingdom?

In any case, don't quote the Imam's actions. They are not sunnah and do not prove anything. Please quote Qur'anic ayaats to show hunting big game for fun is recommended. A further task for you is to dig through the prophet's biography and prove that he liked to hunt for fun and that he recommended that his family members and descendants do so. Just number of the Qur'anic ayats will be enough. Waiting your reply eagerly.