The True Imam - How would you verify?

[SBM]

Brother Porus
Since Adam has joined Imam in Satr due to his cowardice (adam and not Imam) of not answering my questions could you be kind enough to reply which were regarding the progeny of current dai and when did the Wadhawo Rasm started. How does Bharmal and Tarmal hindu rajas who became Dai justifies the progeny of current Dai.

[SBM]

Brother Porus
I read your post about Imam and his progeny from Imam Tayyab so let me rephrase my question since Adam is still in SATR
Is current Dai from the Progeny of Hurut al Maleka?

[Fateh]

I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.

the simplest thing for me to say is that the Imam will say that all Dai's except ours, are fake and only our Dai is the true one. And i could hazard a risk and say it too, as this site is for Dawoodi Bohras, but i would rather not make that suggestion.

I will, however, say that in that eventuality, remote as it may be, i do not have an answer to that question. but what i can assure you is that the question would be disregarded in the very first place, by any Dawoodi Bohra as we believe that our Dai can never be wrong.

my words may seem convuluted, and i apologise for that but this question is either extremely tricky for someones whose faith is not set in stone yet, or extremely easy for someones who's is. For the former, people like me, we would prefer to say "i dont have an answer". for the latter, their responce is above.

Salam Mustafabhai, no you do not understand from where i am coming & what i am trying to say, please do not misjudge me from my single question.Do not try to escape from your own soul ,dai is not our final ultimate goal our final goal is to achieve ALLAH. Its your faith that only our dai is true other dais are fake same thing will not true for others sects of bohara.This is one possibility,my question is may be other possibility .In my pov imam will choose who is rightful dai till then follow as per your faith.

[progticide]

Imam al-Tayyib, in all probability, was killed in his infancy by his father's enemies. Thus, he has no progeny. No Imam is coming and hence the question of his verification does not arise.

Prof. Poo (Porus), with this statement you have openly declared to everyone especially the progressives that you have nothing more to do with DB faith. Progressives, remember my earlier post on this thread where I had clearly mentioned about Porus attempting to legitimize Aga Khan's Imamate and his acceptance of Nizari Ismaili faith. Still, you wanna consider Porus as one of yours is entirely your choice, but that would clearly raise doubts about your following of the DB faith too. Now I am waiting for a progressive like Doctor Mubarak to take a stand on behalf of those progressives still professing to be following DB faith to question Porus on what he has written above and whether Doctor Mubarak considers Porus to be part of the progressive community anymore. Lets see if the progressives defend DB beliefs that Porus has now openly challenged.

No Dai al-Mutlaq has ever been appointed by any Imam because the first Dai al-Mutlaq was appointed by Hurrat al-Malika.

Prof. Poo, you forgot to mention about the Imam who instructed Maulatena Hurrat al Maleka to appoint the Dai-e-Mutlaq. So the Dai-e-Mutlaq's office was appointed on the explicit instruction and orders of Imam Aamir (although the process itself started from the time of Imam Mustansir Billah). Maulatena Hurrut al Maleka only executed the orders from the Imam. So you would now rather care to keep you crappy knowledge with you and not confuse the progressives anymore. You and your friends have led them astray for long enough. Time's up now.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

Prof. Poo, I guess this was told to you by the Aga Khan through Ilham in the night while you were answering the nature's call. Just two lines above you have written that no imam is coming and therefore no question of verification. And now just two sentences later you are making a definitive judgement that the Imam would verify the Dai and not other way around. You are insane. What do you have to say on this Doctor Mubarak or are you still going to remain silent on this and keep cleaning Porus' poo? Hussain_KSA, see this is the person whom you were so happy sending across the Fatimi literature. See for yourself whom you were dealing with all this while. The one who you thought was supporting your cause is actually a termite eating into your faith from inside and hollowing it to the extent that now he is openly challenging the articles of DB faith that you and your forefathers followed.

Since the Imam did not appoint Dai al-Mutlaq, he will have to consider whether the latter is his 'true' follower. If the Imam is being presented by the Dail al-Mutlaq as 'aalim al-ghayb' and 'to whom sajda is wajib', he is not going to be much impressed by him.

This is for you Doctor Mubarak. What Porus is suggesting is that the 46 DB Dais that you hold your faith in atleast were appointed without Imam's authority. Make the progressive stand clear Doctor.

So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue, especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than Allah.

I guess, after trying to delegitimize the hitherto progressive faith in DB beliefs, Porus is now referring to the remaining progressives still professing to follow DB faith as mushriks.

[anajmi]

And now just two sentences later you are making a definitive judgement that the Imam would verify the Dai and not other way around.

This is what porus has written.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

So, it is not a definitive statement but conditional.

[porus]

Brother Porus
I read your post about Imam and his progeny from Imam Tayyab so let me rephrase my question....
Is current Dai from the Progeny of Hurut al Maleka?

The short answer is that the Dai is not from the progeny of Hurrat al-Malika. I am surprised that you even think that. No Bohra will agree with you.

Imam and his family's significance derives from Shia doctrine regarding Imamat. Specifically, Imam must be from the progeny of Imam Husain. Imam Husain's family are referred to Ahl-e-bayt in relation to events of Karbala. This designation has survived to indicate families of all subsequent Imams although it is strictly incorrect according to Quran.

The better term to describe Imams and their families is 'Aal-e-Muhammad'. That is the term Imam Jafar al-Sadiq has used to refer exclusively to Imams according to Daaim al-Islam. That is confirmed by Sayedna's constant reference to himself as 'Mamluk -e-aal-e-Muhammad' meaning 'Servant of Imams'.

There is no parallel significance, at least in dogma, to a Dai al-Mutlaq and his family. However, as we shall see, dogma is being revised to give the the families of the last two Dais a significance equivalent to that given to Imam's families. Thus, increasingly, there is a mention of Bayt-e-Zaini and Qasr-e-Aali in the same breath as Ahl-e-bayt.

Hurrat al-Malika was daughter-in-law of Ali al-Sulayhi, a ruler of Yemen appointed by Imam Mustansir. She became the ruler of Yemen after the death of Ali al-Sulayhi. Neither were related to Imams but they were very loyal to Imamat.

Hurrat al-Malika appointed Dhuaib bin Musa as the first Dai al-Mutlaq when it became clear that the rule of Imam Aamir and his designated heir, Imam al-Tayyib had come to an end. Dhuaib bin Musa was no relation to Imam or Hurrat al-Mulaika.

Dhuaib bin Musa was followed by 3 Dais who were father, son and grandson. They were Ibrahim al-Hamidi, Hatim bin Ibrahim and Ali Shamshuddin. This was the first family of Dais.

The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. The next 18 Dais, including the 5th, were from the family of Ali bin Waleed. This can be considered the second family of Dais.

This brings us to the 24th Dai, Yusuf Najmuddin. He was the first Dai of India following the shift of Daawat from Yemen to India. From then on, Dais came from different families until the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin.

All the Dais since then, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, the third and final family of Dais. These Dais, especially 51st and 52nd, have elevated themselves to almost divine status. After Tayyib Zainuddin, they call themselves Bayt-e-Zaini. (Because of a large number in Bayt-e-Zaini, 51st Dai distinguished his family by a different name, Qasr-e-Aali.)

So, while none of the Dais and their families are from ahl-e-bayt or from progeny of Hurrat al-Malika (- I don't know where that came from-), I have heard them frequently being referred to as 'spiritual ahl-e-bayt' or 'spiritual descendants of ahl-e-bayt'.

This is a shrewd political attempt to revise dogma to prepare Bohras to accept 'bayt-e-zaini/qasr-e-aali' as a feature of divine providence. This will allow the family to retain absolute power over faith and wealth of Bohras. And you can bet that any Imam, if there is one, initiating his zuhoor will be vehemently resisted and will have his work cut out for him by the third family.

[Muslim First]

And now just two sentences later you are making a definitive judgement that the Imam would verify the Dai and not other way around.

This is what porus has written.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

So, it is not a definitive statement but conditional.

Br anajmi
Do you except this human worshipping Shia to interprete any words correctly?
They read what they want to read, they listen what they want to listen and they have particular biased filter in their sight and in their ear. They will hang on to lies. Half truths and twist truth.
Any way if is fun to be here
Wasalaam and Jumma Mabruk
Happy Zohr-asr prayer to DBs (Only return of their Imam can revive traditional Jumma prayer which will not happen)

[SBM]

Brother Porus
Thank you for a very informative post about Dawat and current Dai
I am still waiting Adam once he makes Zahoor to tell us about Wadhawo Rasm and how did Raja Bharmal and Tarmal came in to picture
How would Adam and his co horts would recognize the True Imam if current Dais are not the true progeny when they say that Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt
I do not know if any of these Abde Regressives will answer but thank you for an informative post.

[fearAllah]

Happy Zohr-asr prayer to DBs

Lol, nice one bro!

[porus]

........... tell us about Wadhawo Rasm and how did Raja Bharmal and Tarmal came in to picture

Wadhawani rasam is a vestige of the Hindu past of the Bohras. It is a modified form of the rasam of Hindu 'Aarti'. In Bohra history, the first Dai sent to India by Imam Mustansir was Dai Maulai Ahmed, who started his daawat in Khambaat by adopting many Hindu customs and learning local language. That may be the reason why this non-Islamic rasam has retained its mark.

Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were twins Ramnath and Roopnath, who were renamed Abdullah and Noordin, respectively. Maulai Ahmed took them to Egypt for further education in missionary activities. With the blessings of Imam Mustansir, Abdullah and Noordin returned to India as Dais.

Dai Abdullah returned to Khambaat and succeeded in converting the first couple known as Kaka Akela and Kaka Akeli. Later he manged to convert a small but significant population of Khambaat. With this success behind him, Abdullah travelled to Patan in around 1100 AD. Patan was ruled by Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh, whose wazeer (prime minister) was called Raja Bharmal and his chief priest was called Raja Tarmal. Dai Abdullah managed to convert both Bharmal and Tarmal, who also convinced Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh to embrace Ismailism.

Raja Bharmal does not feature much in history but Raja Tarmal had a famous son who was named Fakhruddin and who was killed by local bandits in Galiyakot while being engaged in missionary activities. He is known to us as Sayyedi Fakhruddin Shaheed. The latter was killed in 1150 AD. Hurrat al-Malika died in 1130 AD, a few years after establishing the office of Dai al-Mutlaq. Thus all the Dais mentioned above were not Dai al-Mutlaq.

Progeny of Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh is prominently featured in history of Daawat as there have been great Ismaili scholars among them. I am not sure if there has been any Dai al-Mutlaq in his progeny, although that is very likely.

How would Adam and his co horts would recognize the True Imam if current Dais are not the true progeny when they say that Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt.

This question does not make sense. What has progeny of Dai got to do with recognition of Imam?

[progticide]

........... tell us about Wadhawo Rasm and how did Raja Bharmal and Tarmal came in to picture

Wadhawani rasam is a vestige of the Hindu past of the Bohras. It is a modified form of the rasam of Hindu 'Aarti'. In Bohra history, the first Dai sent to India by Imam Mustansir was Dai Maulai Ahmed, who started his daawat in Khambaat by adopting many Hindu customs and learning local language. That may be the reason why this non-Islamic rasam has retained its mark.

Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were twins Ramnath and Roopnath, who were renamed Abdullah and Noordin, respectively. Maulai Ahmed took them to Egypt for further education in missionary activities. With the blessings of Imam Mustansir, Abdullah and Noordin returned to India as Dais.

Dai Abdullah returned to Khambaat and succeeded in converting the first couple known as Kaka Akela and Kaka Akeli. Later he manged to convert a small but significant population of Khambaat. With this success behind him, Abdullah travelled to Patan in around 1100 AD. Patan was ruled by Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh, whose wazeer (prime minister) was called Raja Bharmal and his chief priest was called Raja Tarmal. Dai Abdullah managed to convert both Bharmal and Tarmal, who also convinced Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh to embrace Ismailism.

Raja Bharmal does not feature much in history but Raja Tarmal had a famous son who was named Fakhruddin and who was killed by local bandits in Galiyakot while being engaged in missionary activities. He is known to us as Sayyedi Fakhruddin Shaheed. The latter was killed in 1150 AD. Hurrat al-Malika died in 1130 AD, a few years after establishing the office of Dai al-Mutlaq. Thus all the Dais mentioned above were not Dai al-Mutlaq.

Progeny of Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh is prominently featured in history of Daawat as there have been great Ismaili scholars among them. I am not sure if there has been any Dai al-Mutlaq in his progeny, although that is very likely.

How would Adam and his co horts would recognize the True Imam if current Dais are not the true progeny when they say that Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt.

This question does not make sense. What has progeny of Dai got to do with recognition of Imam?

Porof. Poo (Porus),
Couple of mistakes you made in the above detailing. Let me correct them.
1. Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were Balamnath (not Ramnath) and Roopnath.
2. Raja Bharmal definitely features in history till date. Raja Bharmal's son was Maulai Yaqub, the second Wali-e-Hind (after Maulai Abdullah). Maulai Ishaq, Maulai Ali and Maulai Hasan Fir who subsequently became Wali-e-Hind one after another were from Maulai Yaqub's progeny.

[progticide]

Dhuaib bin Musa was followed by 3 Dais who were father, son and grandson. They were Ibrahim al-Hamidi, Hatim bin Ibrahim and Ali Shamshuddin. This was the first family of Dais.

The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. The next 18 Dais, including the 5th, were from the family of Ali bin Waleed. This can be considered the second family of Dais.

This brings us to the 24th Dai, Yusuf Najmuddin. He was the first Dai of India following the shift of Daawat from Yemen to India. From then on, Dais came from different families until the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin.

All the Dais since then, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, the third and final family of Dais.

Prof. Poo (Porus),
Let me suggest some corrections in this post also.
The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. 17 Dais (and not 18 as you said) out of the next 19 Dais in Yemen (including the 5th), were from the family of Ali bin Waleed (means a total of 17 dais from the First 23 dais in Yemen were from Al Waleed family). This can be considered the second family of Dais. The 18th Dai from the Al Waleed family (Syedna Ali Shamshuddin - 30th Dai-e- Mutlaq) was appointed in Yemen much later after the transfer of dawat to India, thereby making the total number of Dais in Yemen as 24.

All the Dais since 45th, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, another familial line of Dais . There have been other smaller familial line of dais like that of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed, Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin etc.

So now we know what kind of research scholar you are.

BTW, I am still waiting for Hussain KSA & Doctor Mubarak's response to the nonsense posted by you in your post above. Have Hussain KSA & Doctor Mubarak missed my post above or are they shying away to refute Porus' comments who they had been supporting all this while?

[Adam]

Thank you Progticide for clarifying all the issues.
These statements of course, are the most important directly at the so-called-Proggies :

. What do you have to say on this Doctor Mubarak or are you still going to remain silent on this and keep cleaning Porus' poo? Hussain_KSA, see this is the person whom you were so happy sending across the Fatimi literature. See for yourself whom you were dealing with all this while. The one who you thought was supporting your cause is actually a termite eating into your faith from inside and hollowing it to the extent that now he is openly challenging the articles of DB faith that you and your forefathers followed.

This is for you Doctor Mubarak. What Porus is suggesting is that the 46 DB Dais that you hold your faith in atleast were appointed without Imam's authority. Make the progressive stand clear Doctor.

porus wrote:
So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue, especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than Allah.

I guess, after trying to delegitimize the hitherto progressive faith in DB beliefs, Porus is now referring to the remaining progressives still professing to follow DB faith as mushriks.

Also, thank you Porus for clarifying the questions posed by SBM (although with some mistakes, clarified by Progticide:
I agree with yout final comment

This question does not make sense. What has progeny of Dai got to do with recognition of Imam?

Proggies -- WHY SO SILENT ABOUT THE IMAMAT?

[Humsafar]

Proggies -- WHY SO SILENT ABOUT THE IMAMAT?

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

[Adam]

Proggies -- WHY SO SILENT ABOUT THE IMAMAT?

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

Progticide was referring to PORUS s false claims/opinions about the 21st Imam.
HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

[Humsafar]

HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Unlike you and other abdes I do not lose sleep over what Porus or anyone else believes. What Porus believes is his business. My business is to point out that your masters have turned beliefs into a business, and abdes like are you the salesmen.

[porus]

Progticide was referring to PORUS s false claims/opinions about the 21st Imam.
HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Humsafar,

My opinion (that Imam Tayyib was killed in infancy and therefore he has no progeny) does not invalidate historical Imamat. Similarly, for the group who doubts the legitimacy of Duaat Mutlaqeen after the 46th Dai, it does not invalidate historical Daawat. Nor do those opinions invalidate Fatimid literature and the literature produced by Fatemi/Tayyibi scholars. They are valuable historical documents. Although, one must not be tied to received opinions held by Mushriks (Adam, Progticide etc) on this board about this literature.

This whole business of 21st Imam is a red herring by Mushriks. In reality, he is not important among majority of Bohras apart from reciting his name in Dua Taqarrub and ritual touching of forehead and kissing the hand while doing it. The position of the Dai al-Mutlaq is what counts. That is of prime importance.

[porus]

Raja Bharmal does not feature much in history.....

Porof. Poo (Porus),
Couple of mistakes you made in the above detailing. Let me correct them.
1. Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were Balamnath (not Ramnath) and Roopnath.
2. Raja Bharmal definitely features in history till date. Raja Bharmal's son was Maulai Yaqub, the second Wali-e-Hind (after Maulai Abdullah). Maulai Ishaq, Maulai Ali and Maulai Hasan Fir who subsequently became Wali-e-Hind one after another were from Maulai Yaqub's progeny.

1. Balamnath ??? Huh!

2. Maulai Yaqub was not Raja Bharmal's son. He was, in fact, the grandson of Maharaja Jaisinh. His given name was Ajaypal which was changed to Yaqoob after he embraced Ismailism. It was he who trained Sayyedi Fakhruddin Shaheed.

[Adam]

HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Unlike you and other abdes I do not lose sleep over what Porus or anyone else believes. What Porus believes is his business. My business is to point out that your masters have turned beliefs into a business, and abdes like are you the salesmen.

So your above post of:

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

Is actually just another blatant lie.
Not surprising, coming from a confused coward? (Sorry for the harsh words)

[Adam]

The position of the Dai al-Mutlaq is what counts. That is of prime importance.

True. It is ONLY of importance because the Dai al-Muthlaq is the Dai of Imam Tayyeb.

[Humsafar]

Unlike you and other abdes I do not lose sleep over what Porus or anyone else believes. What Porus believes is his business. My business is to point out that your masters have turned beliefs into a business, and abdes like are you the salesmen.

So your above post of:

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

Is actually just another blatant lie.
Not surprising, coming from a confused coward? (Sorry for the harsh words)

Adam, I'm not surprised that you would try to "stretch" one post of mine and connect it to another. The two have nothing to do with each other. People who are in the business of "stretching" the Quran to justify shirk and kufr this is nothing. You think by using harsh words you can pull wool over eyes?

[profastian]

Progticide was referring to PORUS s false claims/opinions about the 21st Imam.
HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Humsafar,

My opinion (that Imam Tayyib was killed in infancy and therefore he has no progeny) does not invalidate historical Imamat. Similarly, for the group who doubts the legitimacy of Duaat Mutlaqeen after the 46th Dai, it does not invalidate historical Daawat. Nor do those opinions invalidate Fatimid literature and the literature produced by Fatemi/Tayyibi scholars. They are valuable historical documents. Although, one must not be tied to received opinions held by Mushriks (Adam, Progticide etc) on this board about this literature.

This whole business of 21st Imam is a red herring by Mushriks. In reality, he is not important among majority of Bohras apart from reciting his name in Dua Taqarrub and ritual touching of forehead and kissing the hand while doing it. The position of the Dai al-Mutlaq is what counts. That is of prime importance.

As your worthless opnion does not invalidate imamat(as accepted by you), your other equally worthless opinion does not make bohras mushriks either. I wonder why you bother to post your worthless opinions as you yourself consider them worthless. Maybe you do not have much else do.

[progticide]

Progressives (like Doctor Mubarak, Hussain KSA) who profess to be following the DB faith and maintain their belief in the chain of Aimmat Tahereen and Duat Akrameen (though maybe upto 46th Dai only) would agree that the DBs have answered possibly every question on this particular thread that you had been raising over the years.

Despite this, you have chosen to be merely mute spectators when traitors among you like Prof. Poo (Porus) and his gang of non-DB followers, targetted core articles of DB faith in this thread in the name of raising Progressive banner for all of you. What Porus and his gang were actually doing was trying to invalidate the core tenets of your belief and promoting their ideas like Nizari beliefs against your DB belief (your beliefs and not ours because we DBs have stood united and unwavering in our faith and thereby were able to refute all the false propoganda and kick-the-poo out of Porus and gang).

We DBs do not require the least of your help or support to defend the core tenets and articles of our DB faith from insects like Porus and gang.

We only wanted to see how dearly you hold and defend your belief in DB faith, and now we know your stand too. Maybe, henceforth, you all would stop branding yourself as so-called DB.

[Humsafar]

Pesticide, bravo man that's a pretty big talk coming from a Dai worshipper. What I cannot understand is that each time you get on your high horse what is it that makes you forget that you're steeped in human worship? What is it they give you to cause instant amnesia?

[porus]

Core tenets of Dawoodi Bohras are in the Quran.

While a fairly solid argument can be constructed for Imamat using the Quran, I will wait for Adam and his fellow-Mushriks to construct an argument, based on the Quran, that Imam can disappear and Muslims must wait for him to re-appear and in the mean time fall in sujood to a leader who purports to be Imam's representative.

While they are looking for an answer, I will advise them to consider the episode from the Quran when Nabi Musa left Banu Israel for communion with Allah and returned to find Banu Isarael worshipping a 'golden' calf.

[anajmi]

Actually, the abde idiots and their religion got butt kicked on the very first page of this thread. The remaining 14 pages was nothing more than high pitched mourning.

[anajmi]

While a fairly solid argument can be constructed for Imamat using the Quran

I would love to see this argument too.

[Humsafar]

While they are looking for an answer, I will advise them to consider the episode from the Quran when Nabi Musa left Banu Israel for communion with Allah and returned to find Banu Isarael worshipping a 'golden' calf.

Porus, that is a brilliant analogy and fits perfectly to a T with these human-worshipping abdes. Excellent.

[anajmi]

Humsafar, porus,

This analogy is a double edged sword. I am sure you are smart enough to figure it out.

[Humsafar]

Yes and No. But for now it is good enough to cut dai-worshippers to size.