Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Biradar wrote:

TaherH21 wrote: According to Fatimid-Ismaili beliefs, hunting is allowed. I have proven it by giving multiple accounts of at least two Imams (AS) hunting.

It makes absolutely no difference. Imam's behavior is not Sunnah for us to follow. They are only infallible as to religious things. Not secular things like hunting etc. The first and only criteria is to test against the Qur'an. The Qur'an clearly and unambiguously preaches a message of compassion for all created things. Hence, sports hunting of big-game species, as I have shown in the post above (which you continue to ignore) in great detail, is illegal and, more importantly, unethical.

Also, if the Imam's were so powerful and infallible in worldy matters, how come the Fatimid Empire collapsed? Imam Mustansir was in such dire straits that he lost control of the empire and had to wait till Sayedna Badrul Jamaali rescued him. Then, in a few more decades the whole thing just collapsed. How come an infallible Imam could not maintain even his grip on his own kingdom?

In any case, don't quote the Imam's actions. They are not sunnah and do not prove anything. Please quote Qur'anic ayaats to show hunting big game for fun is recommended. A further task for you is to dig through the prophet's biography and prove that he liked to hunt for fun and that he recommended that his family members and descendants do so. Just number of the Qur'anic ayats will be enough. Waiting your reply eagerly.

It makes all the difference! The Messenger of God SAW clearly stated that he would leave behind two things: The Quran and the Ahlul Bayt AS, and the two will not separate.

Your logic, in my opinion is a flawed one because it can be used to debunk any text or religion, even the Quran (God forbid anyone from doing this).

I do not want to go down this route, but if you insist:

The Quran preaches compassion indeed. But critics of Islam have very different interpretations. I don't agree with the following but for the purpose of what I am trying to say I shall state it:

When al Khidr AS killed the boy in front of Musa Nabi AS, would you call that compassion? He hadn't committed any sin yet. (I'm not disagreeing with al Khidr AS, I am just making a point by the way)

With regards to you saying the Ikhwan as Safa was wrong when it comes to physical sciences, please tell me, do you believe the world was created in 6 days as per what is written in the Quran? Or that mountains act as pegs which prevent the ground from shaking? Do you see why your logic is flawed when it can be used to debunk the Quran (Nauzobillah)

How do you know what to take literally and what to take metaphorically? You have no right to make that judgement, only the Imam AS does (or in his seclusion the Duat RA).

With regards to Imam al Mustansir AS, don't forget he conquered Baghdad (albeit for a short while) and expelled the Abbassid sultan. God knows why the Empire was allowed to collapse, the same can be said for the kingdoms of the Biblical Prophets AS.

The Imams AS are completely infallible and immaculate, perfect in everyway. They are the best of Almighty God's servants.

If you are a Bohra (even reformist) you have no choice but to agree that the Imam AS is infallible completely.

If you are not a Bohra, why are you here?

TaherH21 wrote: The Imams AS are completely infallible and immaculate, perfect in everyway. They are the best of Almighty God's servants.

If you are a Bohra (even reformist) you have no choice but to agree that the Imam AS is infallible completely.

If you are not a Bohra, why are you here?

Please prove the above text in bold by quoting Qur'anic texts.

I have a choice, please don't be a fool. Allah has given me a brain. He has also instructed me to use it. You are a robot with no thoughts of his own, so think others do not and should not have either. Imams are not infallible as far as non-religious things are concerned. You have not told me why if that was the case why Fatimid empire collapsed? Why the Ikhwan as-Safa (and all other books, even written under the supervision of the Imams) are so replete with scientific errors?

Also, as you are ignorant, I will enlighten you somewhat. The "compassion" of Allah is particularly for creatures who can not accept the linguistic message of the Qur'an. Do you understand the difference between an animal and a human? There are copious traditions which explain the meaning of the word "ar-Rahman" in the very first ayaat of the Qur'an.

Finally, are you a prophet? Do you qualify as someone who can judge who is Bohra, muumin, Muslim? Do you have any special insight on who should on this forum? Please let me know. Perhaps you are the awaited Mahdi. If so, and you can prove it, we will all accept you as such. Otherwise, don't be a pompous ass and ask why I or anyone is here.

Biradar wrote:

TaherH21 wrote: The Imams AS are completely infallible and immaculate, perfect in everyway. They are the best of Almighty God's servants.

If you are a Bohra (even reformist) you have no choice but to agree that the Imam AS is infallible completely.

If you are not a Bohra, why are you here?

Please prove the above text in bold by quoting Qur'anic texts.

I have a choice, please don't be a fool. Allah has given me a brain. He has also instructed me to use it. You are a robot with no thoughts of his own, so think others do not and should not have either. Imams are not infallible as far as non-religious things are concerned. You have not told me why if that was the case why Fatimid empire collapsed? Why the Ikhwan as-Safa (and all other books, even written under the supervision of the Imams) are so replete with scientific errors?

Also, as you are ignorant, I will enlighten you somewhat. The "compassion" of Allah is particularly for creatures who can not accept the linguistic message of the Qur'an. Do you understand the difference between an animal and a human? There are copious traditions which explain the meaning of the word "ar-Rahman" in the very first ayaat of the Qur'an.

Finally, are you a prophet? Do you qualify as someone who can judge who is Bohra, muumin, Muslim? Do you have any special insight on who should on this forum? Please let me know. Perhaps you are the awaited Mahdi. If so, and you can prove it, we will all accept you as such. Otherwise, don't be a pompous ass and ask why I or anyone is here.

Quran 33:33.

Refer to this website, it is more or less correct:

http://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-inf ... -mubahalah

I cannot answer your question about Ikhwan as Safa and scientific errors, just like you cannot answer why the Quran says the world was created in 6 days, when geological evidence proves that it took much longer. Critics would say this is quite a big scientific error (Nauzobillah).

This is why I wanted to avoid this topic, as your logic can be used to debunk the Book of God.

Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA says: "....It is our bounden duty to obey the commands of every Imam of the time and submit to his will. To criticise him or to pry into his affairs is as abominable as to criticise the Prophet...Those who cannot see through them disapprove of them and criticise the Imams because of their ignorance. "

If you criticise the Fatimid Imams AS you are not an Ismaili, therefore not a Bohra. Its simple.

TaherH21 wrote:
Quran 33:33.

I cannot answer your question about Ikhwan as Safa and scientific errors, just like you cannot answer why the Quran says the world was created in 6 days, when geological evidence proves that it took much longer. Critics would say this is quite a big scientific error (Nauzobillah).

This is why I wanted to avoid this topic, as your logic can be used to debunk the Book of God.

Please tell me if Q 33:33 has the word "Imam" in it? Also, please tell me who in particular are the "ahla l-bayti" are in the 22nd and 23rd words in this verse. Don't paste some random nonsense from some website without thinking through it yourself.

To answer the bolded part above. Do you think the word "day" means really means the physical day? There is a very big difference in the exalted meanings of the Qur'an and the specific (incorrect) science in the Ikhwan as-Safa and other book, even if written by or under the supervision of the Imam.

Also, unless you can tell me why the Imam could make so many errors in science and philosophy but is perfectly correct when it comes to hunting for fun, I won't take you seriously. I mean, it is absurd! This in itself proves, beyond any doubt that the Imam is not infallible, at least when it comes to non-religious matters.

You are trying to defend some nasty habit of some rich person against the exalted and sublime words of the Qur'an. How can you call yourself a Muslim, leave alone a Ismaili or a Bohra?

Qaid Noman was a sycophant. He was no doubt a great man in his own right, but at the end of the day his job (and life) depended on praising and defending the Empire and its leaders. Also, as I said, he was fully susceptible to error as is everyone, Imam and da'i included.

Finally, you have not answered my specific query: (a) please point to the ayaat in the Qur'an where hunting for fun is permissible (b) please point to reliable hadith of the prophet to show he hunted for fun and also recommended his family and descendants do so. Thanks, awaiting your reply eagerly.

At one place Allah says that a day is equivalent to 1000 years and in another place he says it is equivalent to 50000 years in the quran. So no there are no issues with Allah claiming that he created the earth in 6 days. As is easily explained from the quran itself without going into any taawil, a yaum is not the same as a 24 hour day.The Imams and their sycophantic followers have corrupted your thinking to a great extent.

H1N1 Bhai, its time to go back to the drawing board.

We will only know if we can ask our All knowing Dai who claims to have a direct line, with imam and Allah at the other end.

Dai should do a AMA (Ask ME Anything )

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anajmi wrote:At one place Allah says that a day is equivalent to 1000 years and in another place he says it is equivalent to 50000 years in the quran. So no there are no issues with Allah claiming that he created the earth in 6 days. As is easily explained from the quran itself without going into any taawil, a yaum is not the same as a 24 hour day.The Imams and their sycophantic followers have corrupted your thinking to a great extent.

I did look up the ayats regarding this.

22:47

Disbelievers challenge Muhammad to bring Allah's punishment upon them because of their disbelief. Allah says, "No fears. I will take my time in punishing them. My 'Day of Judgment' is 1000 years long. It does not mean that there is a difference between our day and Allah's day. It is the same. 'Day of Judgment' is simply a period of 1000 years.

70:4

Allah says that angels and spirit (ruh) ascend towards Him in a period equivalent to 50,000 years. Here again, Quran uses the 'Day' to refer to the period. It does not mean that our day is different from Allah's day.

That was taawil! The greatest authority on the Quran in the universe, aka anajmi, did not understand that. He is a fake authority. Never listen to him.

Now, Allah says in the Quran that He created the Universe in 6 days. Does he say if this day also refers to a period exceeding multiple years? I do not think so.

Allah also says that when He wants something to be, all he has to say is "Be". How does that square with these 6 days? It does not compute. It is inconsistent, no? To achieve consistency you will need recourse to taawil. Shall I tell you how to resolve the conundrum? Or will you listen to anajmi, the greatest authority of the Quran in the universe whose students include all mufassireen, past, present and future?

My 'Day of Judgment' is 1000 years long. It does not mean that there is a difference between our day and Allah's day.

Allah says his 'Day of Judgment' is 1000 years long. And yet, fayyaaz tells us that it does not mean that there is a difference between our day and Allah's day.

Allah - My 'Day of Judgement' is 1000 years long.
fayyaaz - There is no difference between your day and my day.
anajmi - That is cause fayyaaz is Bill Murray waiting to sleep with Andie McDowell and that ain't happening in a thousand years.

I don't think I need to go into the next ayah.

Shall I tell you how to resolve the conundrum?

No. Keep it to yourself. Unless you want to be ridiculed some more!!

Allah also says that when He wants something to be, all he has to say is "Be". How does that square with these 6 days?

You don't need to reconcile the two. Allah said both things. So if you can accept one, then you should accept the other. No need to go into fictional taawil to resolve it and end up worshipping idols!!

Allah is able to be create anything He wants by just saying "Be". however, that doesn't mean He has to. He isn't bound by any laws, not even his own. So he doesn't have to say "Be" to do something in an instant if he wants to do the same in 6 days (and these are not fayyaaz days). And there is no taawil on earth that can prevent Him from doing as He wills.

anajmi wrote: Allah - My 'Day of Judgement' is 1000 years long.
fayyaaz - There is no difference between your day and my day.

O ridiculer extraordinaire, why don't you go back to loving Yazid!

"Day of Judgment", that is, "Period of Judgement" is equivalent to 1000 human years, idiot!

"Day of Judgment", that is, "Period of Judgement" is equivalent to 1000 human years, idiot!

Duh!! Yes it is. And that was the point. Now, you might want to go back to sleep till next week.

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How about a mask for the Muffy's lion? Does any one know how many majestic animals this blood thirsty guy has killed? And is he going to stop? Continuing in father's and grand father's steps. Beshumar killings. I wonder if dead animals can utter bid doa?

Nice Quote on Hunting

How does Aliasgar bin QJ feeling being surrounded, beaten , wounded , caged in jail......just like the hunted lion or wounded elephant

so how does it feel to be injured in pain but not dying

can sms relate to the pain ?

sms and his bushra party try remember next time you hunt you know you are also being hunted !

where are the conservationists abde who defended the hunts ..

don't worry saudi will not kill him. just giving him taste of extreme pain.

question is , will he be the same arrogant zada when released ?

Bohra spring wrote:question is , will he be the same arrogant zada when released ?

he is going to be a HERO, stood against the atrocity of the opressor, the true defender of deen ! he would be a shining example of shiat-e-ali .. a majalis would be planned .. ikraam and faaker najwa to be presented to this great hero .. it is an achievement unparalleled in kothar's history .. yet another opporrtunity out of many to extract moolaah out of abdes ..

Syedna Ahmad al Naysaburi RA, the Hujjat of Imam al Aziz AS and Imam al Hakim AS said:

"...Those animals who refuse to be under the control of man, like beasts of prey, with no benefit or merit, are judged by reason and law that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy...."

(Kitaab Ithbat al Imama)

Would any of you condemn the noble Hujjat RA who Syedna Hatim RA described as "most excellent and illustrious"?

There is nothing wrong with hunting as it is the Sunna of the Fatimid Imams AS, who have never deviated from the Sunna of the Messenger of God SAW and the Holy Quran.

If you do condemn him RA, then you are hypocrites because it says on this very own forum:

“We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb and his progeny, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the rightful successor to the 52nd Dai Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.”

If you do condemn him RA, then you are hypocrites because it says on this very own forum:

And what would you say about the NUSS of a Dai?\
Are you a bigger hypocrite if you accept the verdict of a Hindu Judge.
The times are different, everything can be questionable except the Quran-Prophet and Ahle Bayt.
The current Dawat and its leaders have brought everything in question.

TaherH21 wrote:Syedna Ahmad al Naysaburi RA, the Hujjat of Imam al Aziz AS and Imam al Hakim AS said:

"...Those animals who refuse to be under the control of man, like beasts of prey, with no benefit or merit, are judged by reason and law that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy...."

(Kitaab Ithbat al Imama)

Would any of you condemn the noble Hujjat RA who Syedna Hatim RA described as "most excellent and illustrious"?

[DELETED]Can you, [DELETED]point to any ayaat in the Qur'an which justifies "that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them [animals] because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy"? In fact, it is quite the opposite! The Qur'an preaches compassion and nowhere, not once, does it say it is okay to annihilate animals!

I challenge you produce just one ayaat which says that it is okay for humans to annihilate animals.[DELETED] [DELETED[DELETED]]

[DELETED] [DELETED[DELETED]

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@Biradar

I find your reply quite funny indeed! I only came to know about Syedna al Naysaburi RA because I read about him on this website and how highly praised he and his literature is by reformists!


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Taher
I have question (more to follow depending on your answers)
Do you consider a Dai and his family to be the followers of Fatimid Imams?

[quote="TaherH21"]@Biradar



[DELETED] [DELETED

There are several answers to this:

- Naysaburi is misguided in his opinions on hunting and legality of "slaughter" of animals. As I keep asking you, and telling you repeatedly, things which can not be directly supported by the Qur'an, or at least not directly contradict it, must be rejected. You have failed to show me ONE ayaat where Allah says it is justifiable to slaughter animals for fun.

- Many of these da'is may have been great. I do not argue with it. In fact, I myself have written about the philosophical depths of some of these da'is, including Naysaburi. However, I do not blindly accept anything they say. They lived a 1000 years ago, and much progress has been made in that time. We have evolved ethically and morally. For example, the great poet and aalim, Sayedi Saadik-ali Saheb had very backward views on women, and I can quote his naasihat on this topic. (It is a personal topic of research for me). However, you would not treat your wife or daughter in the way he say you should treat them. So why this double standard? Why respect the view of Naysaburi on hunting, but not Saadik-ali on women?

- I have respect for aspects of the Fatemi Imams. Not others. The Ahle-bait are 5: Muhammad, Ali, Fatema, Hassan and Hussain. They have passed away a long while ago. No one else can be strictly termed as "able-bait". The Qu'ranic verses on purification applies only to these 5 and not their descendants.

- Further, as I mentioned before, please point out where these 5 true Ahle-bait have justified hunting for pleasure, and, specially, the extremist claim you made in your last post. (i.e. animals should be slaughtered if they do not submit to humans). Quite the opposite it true!

Hence, it is you have disrespected Ahle-bait in your zeal to defend the
[DELETED] da'i. The real Ahle-bait, and the greatest of them all, Muhammad, was a man full of compassion and mercy, for both humans and animals. Some RA saying this or that can not change the fundamental message of compassion which forms the backbone of the Qu'ran. So, stop insulting these great Ahle-bait personalities to justify the lust and greed of some
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SBM wrote:Taher
I have question (more to follow depending on your answers)
Do you consider a Dai and his family to be the followers of Fatimid Imams?

Yes, I do.

TaherH21 wrote:

SBM wrote:Taher
I have question (more to follow depending on your answers)
Do you consider a Dai and his family to be the followers of Fatimid Imams?

Yes, I do.

Then is it okay to say Lanaat on the family member of a Dai? If you say the lanaat on the family members of Dai then you are also disrespecting the leader of the followers, You get my drift.

Just like Bohra literature even the Hadiths which were found to be contradicting the message of Quran are untrustworthy, this is the view of Muslims from all sects.

@SBM

I think I understand what you are saying, but as uncomfortable as it is, from religious perspective there is nothing wrong with saying lanaat, even on a family member.

Firstly, wasn't Abu Lahab the Messenger's SAW uncle? He is even condemned by name in the Holy Quran.

Secondly, Imam al Mansur AS wrote a letter to Imam al Muiz AS condemning some of Imam al Mahdi's AS and Imam al Qaim's AS sons who had opposed Fatimid doctrine.

"...Know, O my son, that the Cursed Tree in the Quran applies to the Umayyads yesterday, and that today it applies to the sons of your two ancestors, al Mahdi billah and al Qaim biamrallah..."

(Sirat Al Ustadh Jawdhar, part 1, letter 25)

In any case I don't think this is relevant to this specific thread.

Firstly, wasn't Abu Lahab the Messenger's SAW uncle? He is even condemned by name in the Holy Quran.

Wrong analogy. Abu Lahab denied the message and that is why he was cursed. There is a difference. You are cursing people because of personal animosity and not for the sake of Allah. Hence your lanats are of no use and they will come back to bite you in the hereafter.

TaherH21 wrote:Syedna Ahmad al Naysaburi RA, the Hujjat of Imam al Aziz AS and Imam al Hakim AS said:

"...Those animals who refuse to be under the control of man, like beasts of prey, with no benefit or merit, are judged by reason and law that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy...."

(Kitaab Ithbat al Imama).”

can you please explain the part highlighted in bold !