The True Imam - How would you verify?

[porus]

Humsafar, porus,

This analogy is a double edged sword. I am sure you are smart enough to figure it out.

I realized that the minute I posted it. However, Nabi Musa clearly said before he 'disappeared' where he was going. Bohra Imam disappeared without trace, not telling anyone; and he did not even bother to nominate anyone as his deputy. While Nabi Musa did, in fact, appoint Haroon as his deputy with Allah's approval.

Well, Musa was not in 'satr'.

[Doctor]

Humsafar, porus,

This analogy is a double edged sword. I am sure you are smart enough to figure it out.

I realized that the minute I posted it. However, Nabi Musa clearly said before he 'disappeared' where he was going. Bohra Imam disappeared without trace, not telling anyone and he did not even bother to nominate anyone as his deputy. While Nabi Musa did, in fact, appoint Haroon as his deputy with Allah's approval.

Dear Porus bhai,

Please advise: Which literature says, Imam has to compulsorily depute/appoint someone to lead during his seclusion?

Mustakar Imam is the supreme authority, it is his will, if he deems fit to leave any depute or otherwise.

Porus, Progticide, and all, please note: To reveal himself Imam is not 'mohtaaz' of Kothar Inc or anyone. We all are indeed 'mohtaz' of Imam.

[porus]

Dear Porus bhai,

Please advise: Which literature says, Imam has to compulsorily depute/appoint someone to lead during his seclusion?

Doctor bhai saheb,

That, indeed, is my question. Quran does not say it, does it? Then how can any derived book, like a Fatimid one. say it?

However, 'nass' is a fundamental belief of the Shia. Even if you assume that Imam al-Tayyib 'went into satr out of his own free will', would he not have appointed a 'Mustawda' Imam in his place?

[Adam]

@Humsafar

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

You have posted the above multiple times. Which is nothing but lying on your part
Why would someone continue to say something, that he doesn't believe in, let alone, actually opposes it!
Definitely not a sane intellectual

I would like to return to the thread by asking the Proggies what brother Progticide has been constantly asking, but not one proggy has had the guts to answer is basic belief in Imamat.

. What do you have to say on this Doctor Mubarak or are you still going to remain silent on this and keep cleaning Porus' poo? Hussain_KSA, see this is the person whom you were so happy sending across the Fatimi literature. See for yourself whom you were dealing with all this while. The one who you thought was supporting your cause is actually a termite eating into your faith from inside and hollowing it to the extent that now he is openly challenging the articles of DB faith that you and your forefathers followed.


This is for you Doctor Mubarak. What Porus is suggesting is that the 46 DB Dais that you hold your faith in atleast were appointed without Imam's authority. Make the progressive stand clear Doctor.


porus wrote:
So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue, especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than Allah.

I guess, after trying to delegitimize the hitherto progressive faith in DB beliefs, Porus is now referring to the remaining progressives still professing to follow DB faith as mushriks.

[Adam]

@PORUS
You have made you views clear that you believe No Imam is coming, or exists at this moment. Thank you for that opinion.
Now, you are questioning why Satr happened in the first place.

For the sake of continuing an intellectual discussion, i'd request you to start another thread relevant to that topic. "Why is Satr right", or "We don't need Satr" etc etc.

The topic at hand (this thread "The True Imam - How would you verify?" already establishes the fact that Satr has taken place, and some are awaiting the Imam, but, how would they verify.

Those who don't believe in the Imamat need not answer. You'll (Porus, Humsafar & anajmi) have clearly stated you'll don't believe in Satr nor Imamat. So you really need not answer. And as requested above, start a new thread for the relevant topic.

Every topic is derailed by opinions that are not "directly" connected.

Stay smart, stick to the discussion, don't divert.

PROGGIES. Still waiting for you'll to come out of your closet and answer this thread. "The True Imam - How would you verify?"

[Humsafar]

I would like to return to the thread by asking the Proggies what brother Progticide has been constantly asking, but not one proggy has had the guts to answer is basic belief in Imamat.

"The True Imam - How would you verify?"

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept him as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Doctor]

PROGGIES. Still waiting for you'll to come out of your closet and answer this thread. "The True Imam - How would you verify?"

When Mustakar Imam wish to reveal himself, then he is able to reveal himself. He is not 'mohtaaz' of anyone. We are 'mohtaaz' of him.

Momineen do not need any criterion to test the authenticity of true Imam. If Imam wish to reveal to Mumineen then we will automatically be realized the truth of Imam.

Kothar Inc must be always praying that Imam may not reveal himself otherwise they have to surrender all the loot booty to Imam.

To filter out untrue or fake Imam, the test is simple: Bohra faith about Mustakar Imam is that he is errorless. Ask meaning of few uncommon Arabic/English/Hindi words if he make errors he is false Imam otherwise we will go to second level of test. The primary test itself is enough to filter the false claims.

Adam, you can use this test over your leader as well who claim to be Masoom i.e. errorless. Test above on him and you will get the first hand information on his state of being Masoom (errorless).

In Burhanpur Dargah case - why Taher Saifuddin sahab claimed that there Imam are (mazallah) imaginary and there are no Imams, neither in viel nor in present?

[anajmi]

Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 1 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 2 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 3 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 4 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 5 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 6 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.

The next day
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 1 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 2 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 3 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 4 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 5 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 6 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.

The next week
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 1 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 2 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 3 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 4 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 5 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 6 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.

The next few weeks
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 1 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 2 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 3 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 4 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 5 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 6 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.

The next month
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 1 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 2 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 3 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 4 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies come out of the closet, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 5 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.
Adam and other abde idiots - Proggies, you cowards, how would you verify the true Imam?
Proggie 6 - This is how we will verify the true Imam step 1, step 2 and step 3.

And on and on .......

[Humsafar]

Despite this, I bet abdes will ask the question again.

[fearAllah]

"The True Imam - How would you verify?"

So simple....

Imam saheb knocks on the door of Saifee Mahal, Muffy opens the door, Imam saheb reveals his identity, Muffy panics and punches the Imam, Qasre Alis command the Burhani guards to beat the Imam and throw him to the deepest dungeons of the palace for the rest of his life

Meanwhile Burhan Kakaji wakes up from his afternoon nap and informed that Imam has appeared to reveal himself, Burhan kakaji frantically swallows the tijori key..............

[porus]

@PORUS

Now, you are questioning why Satr happened in the first place.

Not at all. 'Satr' happened in history during Abbasid Khilafa because Imams were in mortal danger of their lives. They worked underground. Satr = Underground.

Mythical 'satr' and 'kashf' in accordance with Ismaili/Bohra Metaphysics need not concern us here. Only the historical 'satr'. That has happened once only and ended when Imam Mahdi revealed himself.

Imam al-Tayyib never went into 'satr'. He was an infant and could not have made that decision. As I keep saying, there is ample evidence to believe that Imam al-Tayyib was killed in his infancy.

This is now a new age. It is the age of Daawat in 'kashf'.

Daawat = Imamat.

Dai = Imam.

That is all there is to it. Forget about Imam. Think, as Doctor has proposed, about how you would verify the Dai to be 'maasum'. Evidence so far is strongly against believing that he is.

[Doctor]

Imam al-Tayyib never went into 'satr'. He was an infant and could not have made that decision. As I keep saying, there is ample evidence to believe that Imam al-Tayyib was killed in his infancy.

Dear Porus bhai,

FYI - Prophet Isa (a) too was new born and did conversation and convinced people! So, even a new born can take decision and indeed take convincing decision on doing convincing conversation.

Imam is borned as Imam. Infancy or adulthood make no difference. Imam is omnipotent. Hence, Molana va Aaka va Syyedina Imam Tayyib (a) did decided to go in 'satr'. Leave ample, you do not have even one categorical proof to verify he was killed in infancy.

Thanks,

[ghulam muhammed]

PROGGIES. Still waiting for you'll to come out of your closet and answer this thread. "The True Imam - How would you verify?"

I would like to return to the thread by asking the Proggies what brother Progticide has been constantly asking, but not one proggy has had the guts to answer is basic belief in Imamat.

@ Adam,

Still waiting for you and your gang to come out of the closet and answer this querry raised by Porus :-

"Abu Abdallah and his brother were executed by Imam al-Mahdi within a year of his zuhoor. This is confirmed by Qadi Noman in his 'Iftitah al-Dawaa'.

Dai Abu Abdallah became extremely embarrassed by Imam al-Mahdi being unable to fulfil expectations of 'cosmic' activities by Imam coming out of satr. (Similar to an abde's expectation that Imam, upon his zuhoor, will destroy tombs of Abu Bakr and Umar located next to the tomb of Rasulullah in Masjid-e-Nabawi). He then denounced al-Mahdi as an impostor and sought to overthrow him. Imam found this out and had him executed".

IF YOU CANNOT REFUTE THE ABOVE THEN ACCEPT WHAT PORUS SAYS :-

What we have just done is to pull the rug under the feet of all the abdes by destroying their argument that only the Dai can point out the 'true' Imam. The success for establishing the foundations of Fatimid Khalifat in Ifriqiya owes entirely to the efforts of Dai Abu Abdallah al-Shii. While he had not met the Imam until he helped rescue him from his arrest at Sijilmasa, he had operated under Imam's instructions conveyed to him by a third party. (Yes, Adam was correct in stating that the Dai had not met the Imam).



Even at the instant of rescuing the Imam, Dai Abu Abdallah could not recognize him and had to wait for Imam to reveal himself to him and those assembled. That is documented.



We can draw two conclusions from this episode.



1. Dai Abu Abdallah, despite being the greatest Dai of Imam Mahdi, was not infallible.

2. Imam reveals himself under his own authority and does not depend on any Dai to point him out.



One of the reasons why the Dai fell out with Imam was that after having had absolute authority, he was relegated to playing second fiddle to Imam. He resented this. The other reasons are more complex having to do with expectations and prophecies that were current about the Imam at the time. The Dai felt that the Imam did not live up to expectations in establishing justice and order in society and was not quick enough to engage in overthrowing the Abbasid Khalifat. After all, according to abde belief about ayat 36:12, Imam is supposed to be an extraordinary individual in whom Allah had vested everything.



Thus the entire abde argument that only the Dai can point out the Imam is blown completely out of water.



And MF is correct. Having enjoyed absolute power for over a century, the current Dai and his family are unlikely to entertain a rival in the shape of an Imam. Thus he is likely to remain hidden for abdes for ever.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hence..........

[Adam]

Doctory (The only Proggy I know of)

When Mustakar Imam wish to reveal himself, then he is able to reveal himself. He is not 'mohtaaz' of anyone. We are 'mohtaaz' of him.

Firstly, Allah isn't MohtaJ of anyone, but for a believer to believe in him, a guide is needed to Allah, this guide is the Prophet.

Also, you would also know that even after Rasulullah SAW "revealed himself" (in your words) there were still many people that didn't believe in him. Same for the Imam, a guide is needed.
There is a possibility that you may not believe in the correct Imam, not being sure whether he's right or not. That thought seems a bit unsure and scary.

So there it is. (For the first time I believe)

Dawoodi Bohras - Will verify the Imam through their Dai al Muthlaq. (Who was appointed by the Imam in the first place)
Progs - Believe until the 46th Dai, stop there, and when the Imam decides to reveals himself, something will happen to convince them, the Progs will flock towards this Imam thinking/guessing he's the right one. So basically, it will be their "self" which will verify the Imam.

[humanbeing]

More than 800 years of Satr, that’s a way too long time to remain in seclusion ! phew !! Dai’s are enjoying wordly titles and national guest honors, politicians and statesmen are in Dai’s pockets. Then what in the world is making Imam remain in seclusion.

A mystical justification, that Zuhoor will happen only when Allah wishes, but only DB Dai can verify / indentify / introduce / acknowledge true Imam.

What a sad Irony !

Imam Ali wished, hoped, sacrificed and suffered to keep the Muslims united and his very followers (Shias) have gone on to create sects and sub sects stifling people into narrowing ideologies and beliefs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we all will see someone will dance in colourful disgust

[profastian]

More than 800 years of Satr, that’s a way too long time to remain in seclusion ! phew !! Dai’s are enjoying wordly titles and national guest honors, politicians and statesmen are in Dai’s pockets. Then what in the world is making Imam remain in seclusion.

A mystical justification, that Zuhoor will happen only when Allah wishes, but only DB Dai can verify / indentify / introduce / acknowledge true Imam.

What a sad Irony !

Imam Ali wished, hoped, sacrificed and suffered to keep the Muslims united and his very followers (Shias) have gone on to create sects and sub sects stifling people into narrowing ideologies and beliefs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we all will see someone will dance in colourful disgust

You really need a history lesson my friend. And change your teacher.
There have hardly been any sects after Imam Amir. Most of the sects were created during Fatimid era. People have left the faith but there are only 2 major sects after Imam Amir(Dawoodi and Sulemani) bohras. I can name tens of sects which were created in the Fatimid era.

[Adam]

A mystical justification, that Zuhoor will happen only when Allah wishes, but only DB Dai can verify / indentify / introduce / acknowledge true Imam.

What a sad Irony !

Thanks.
And even "sadder irony" would be for the Progs, who don't even have a guide to guide them after 800 years, rather its solely upto their own weak base.

I think this thread has come to a conclsion

[humanbeing]

You really need a history lesson my friend. And change your teacher.

True ! My teacher never answers my queries, he passes it off as “ Taawil nu Bayaan che, arso daraaz thai jaase”

There have hardly been any sects after Imam Amir. Most of the sects were created during Fatimid era. People have left the faith but there are only 2 major sects after Imam Amir(Dawoodi and Sulemani) bohras. I can name tens of sects which were created in the Fatimid era.

Imam Ali wished, hoped, sacrificed and suffered to keep the Muslims united and his very followers (Shias) have gone on to create sects and sub sects stifling people into narrowing ideologies and beliefs.

Profastian,
What does it matter, there were schism nevertheless, during Imam times; 12vers, 7vers, Nizaris, Druze while during Dai era; Sulemani, Alavi, Dawoodi. You too mentioned some 10 sects which were created, please share what were they called.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam
F Y I

What a sad Irony !
Imam Ali wished, hoped, sacrificed and suffered to keep the Muslims united and his very followers (Shias) have gone on to create sects and sub sects stifling people into narrowing ideologies and beliefs.

[progticide]

Bro Adam,
Agree with you. This thread has come to an end. Proggies can breathe a sigh of relief finally. But for those proggies who are still wondering why the progressives could not make a convincing argument on this thread or offer any firmly grounded response, the answer is simple. You progressives have lost direction and are now moving in the dark, one by one falling pray to predators like Porus, Anajmi, MF, GM and their likes.

Time to retrospect on your actions and decisions Progressives. Any help to salvage your faith is just a short distance away to the nearest DB Masjid/Darul Imaarat or just a phone call to the local DB Amil /DB Jamaat official.

For any progressives still wishing to clarify their stand and make an argument, you are welcome to do so. On my part, I'll call it a day for this topic.

The End.

[Hussain_KSA]

[quote="progticide"]Bro Adam,
Agree with you. This thread has come to an end. Proggies can breathe a sigh of relief finally. But for those proggies who are still wondering why the progressives could not make a convincing argument on this thread or offer any firmly grounded response, the answer is simple. You progressives have lost direction and are now moving in the dark, one by one falling pray to predators like Porus, Anajmi, MF, GM and their likes.

The End

Seconded

[fearAllah]

Bro Adam,
Agree with you. This thread has come to an end. Proggies can breathe a sigh of relief finally. But for those proggies who are still wondering why the progressives could not make a convincing argument on this thread or offer any firmly grounded response, the answer is simple. You progressives have lost direction and are now moving in the dark, one by one falling pray to predators like Porus, Anajmi, MF, GM and their likes.

Time to retrospect on your actions and decisions Progressives. Any help to salvage your faith is just a short distance away to the nearest DB Masjid/Darul Imaarat or just a phone call to the local DB Amil /DB Jamaat official.

For any progressives still wishing to clarify their stand and make an argument, you are welcome to do so. On my part, I'll call it a day for this topic.

The End.

Late Syedna Taher Seifuddin and Syedna Rozat Tahera would be so proud of you! Celebrate defeat in a victorious way is a cunning gift you inherit from your Taher dadaji.

Muawiya used to say "There is only one Amr bin Al-As" but i guess he didnt live enough to see more.

[Adam]

Late Syedna Taher Seifuddin and Syedna Rozat Tahera would be so proud of you! Celebrate defeat in a victorious

@FearAllah
No one is claiming victory.
Besides it silly to claim victory over those with a "lost" cause
No need to get excited. It was just a question and that question was answered, and chapter can be closed.

[fearAllah]

Well questions were discussed and answered but as usual you all missed it.

I don’t blame you as we are all very used to sleep in Burhan uncle’s waaz that it has become a habbit.

I have re-posted the answers below for you, please don’t go to sleep again, jaman (ooops I should say niyaz) almost ready.

When Mustakar Imam wish to reveal himself, then he is able to reveal himself. He is not 'mohtaaz' of anyone. We are 'mohtaaz' of him.

Momineen do not need any criterion to test the authenticity of true Imam. If Imam wish to reveal to Mumineen then we will automatically be realized the truth of Imam.

Kothar Inc must be always praying that Imam may not reveal himself otherwise they have to surrender all the loot booty to Imam.

To filter out untrue or fake Imam, the test is simple: Bohra faith about Mustakar Imam is that he is errorless. Ask meaning of few uncommon Arabic/English/Hindi words if he make errors he is false Imam otherwise we will go to second level of test. The primary test itself is enough to filter the false claims.

Adam, you can use this test over your leader as well who claim to be Masoom i.e. errorless. Test above on him and you will get the first hand information on his state of being Masoom (errorless).

In Burhanpur Dargah case - why Taher Saifuddin sahab claimed that there Imam are (mazallah) imaginary and there are no Imams, neither in viel nor in present?

"Abu Abdallah and his brother were executed by Imam al-Mahdi within a year of his zuhoor. This is confirmed by Qadi Noman in his 'Iftitah al-Dawaa'.

Dai Abu Abdallah became extremely embarrassed by Imam al-Mahdi being unable to fulfil expectations of 'cosmic' activities by Imam coming out of satr. (Similar to an abde's expectation that Imam, upon his zuhoor, will destroy tombs of Abu Bakr and Umar located next to the tomb of Rasulullah in Masjid-e-Nabawi). He then denounced al-Mahdi as an impostor and sought to overthrow him. Imam found this out and had him executed".

IF YOU CANNOT REFUTE THE ABOVE THEN ACCEPT WHAT PORUS SAYS :-

What we have just done is to pull the rug under the feet of all the abdes by destroying their argument that only the Dai can point out the 'true' Imam. The success for establishing the foundations of Fatimid Khalifat in Ifriqiya owes entirely to the efforts of Dai Abu Abdallah al-Shii. While he had not met the Imam until he helped rescue him from his arrest at Sijilmasa, he had operated under Imam's instructions conveyed to him by a third party. (Yes, Adam was correct in stating that the Dai had not met the Imam).



Even at the instant of rescuing the Imam, Dai Abu Abdallah could not recognize him and had to wait for Imam to reveal himself to him and those assembled. That is documented.



We can draw two conclusions from this episode.



1. Dai Abu Abdallah, despite being the greatest Dai of Imam Mahdi, was not infallible.

2. Imam reveals himself under his own authority and does not depend on any Dai to point him out.



One of the reasons why the Dai fell out with Imam was that after having had absolute authority, he was relegated to playing second fiddle to Imam. He resented this. The other reasons are more complex having to do with expectations and prophecies that were current about the Imam at the time. The Dai felt that the Imam did not live up to expectations in establishing justice and order in society and was not quick enough to engage in overthrowing the Abbasid Khalifat. After all, according to abde belief about ayat 36:12, Imam is supposed to be an extraordinary individual in whom Allah had vested everything.



Thus the entire abde argument that only the Dai can point out the Imam is blown completely out of water.



And MF is correct. Having enjoyed absolute power for over a century, the current Dai and his family are unlikely to entertain a rival in the shape of an Imam. Thus he is likely to remain hidden for abdes for ever.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hence..........

Core tenets of Dawoodi Bohras are in the Quran.

While a fairly solid argument can be constructed for Imamat using the Quran, I will wait for Adam and his fellow-Mushriks to construct an argument, based on the Quran, that Imam can disappear and Muslims must wait for him to re-appear and in the mean time fall in sujood to a leader who purports to be Imam's representative.

While they are looking for an answer, I will advise them to consider the episode from the Quran when Nabi Musa left Banu Israel for communion with Allah and returned to find Banu Isarael worshipping a 'golden' calf.

Maatam is the best method used by kothar to make sure no one sleeps during the waaz, so just incase you are asleep once more, the burhani guards are about to do matam on the Imam below….

So simple....

Imam saheb knocks on the door of Saifee Mahal, Muffy opens the door, Imam saheb reveals his identity, Muffy panics and punches the Imam, Qasre Alis command the Burhani guards to beat the Imam and throw him to the deepest dungeons of the palace for the rest of his life

Meanwhile Burhan Kakaji wakes up from his afternoon nap and informed that Imam has appeared to reveal himself, Burhan kakaji frantically swallows the tijori key..............

[SBM]

Question to Adam-Progticide-Profstian
Do you think who ever is the true Imam to your beliefs ( I am not going in that debate) would Kothari Goons will provide the financial accountability to that Imam or if the Imam asks them the Kothari Goons will say what Syedna Taher Saifuddin said that there is no such thing as Imam in Satr
Another question
Can you tell us if Syedna Taher Saifuudin did not believe in Imam in Satr in supreme Court, then how you the Kothari Co Goons (as is in co conspirators) can identify the true Imam based on Dai's verification when this Dais and his Mansoos are nussed by Syedna Taher Saifuddin who already denied the existence of an Imam
[b]Let us end the chapter now as all abde of Dai agree what our Muqqadas Moula Syenda Taher Saifuddin said[/b]

[porus]

In Burhanpur Dargah case - why Taher Saifuddin sahab claimed that there Imam are (mazallah) imaginary and there are no Imams, neither in viel nor in present?

I agree with Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. I believe that he was telling the truth.

Aakhir sachch zubaan pe aa hi gaya, kya?

[Humsafar]

Bro Adam,
Agree with you. This thread has come to an end. Proggies can breathe a sigh of relief finally. But for those proggies who are still wondering why the progressives could not make a convincing argument on this thread or offer any firmly grounded response, the answer is simple. You progressives have lost direction and are now moving in the dark, one by one falling pray to predators like Porus, Anajmi, MF, GM and their likes.

Time to retrospect on your actions and decisions Progressives. Any help to salvage your faith is just a short distance away to the nearest DB Masjid/Darul Imaarat or just a phone call to the local DB Amil /DB Jamaat official.

For any progressives still wishing to clarify their stand and make an argument, you are welcome to do so. On my part, I'll call it a day for this topic.

The End.

Hey pesticide, don't give up on this most urgent, life-and-death, earth-shattering issue yet. It seems I still need to repeat my answer a thousand more times before you get it. So please keep asking, as you have done again here: why the progressives could not make a convincing argument on this thread or offer any firmly grounded response....
And here is once again my convincing argument and a firmly grounded response:
Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

Please do not give up yet. We can't bear the thought of you going to bed worrying about we proggies being lost in the dark. We want to dispel all your doubts. Please do not give up.

[Humsafar]

Unless you can tell me how will the reformist community idenitify / acknowledge the real Imam, this post above was just another copy-paste job that answered nothing.

In case you missed it, here is how we'll identify the Imam:
Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

@humsafar

In case you missed it, here is how we'll identify the Imam:

1. Who's we?

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

Why don't you accept what the dai is saying NOW? Rather you insult him. Sounds a bit strange to me. Insult now, and follow later on?

So what is it Humsafar?
Do you believe in an existence of an Imam? And his coming? (Like US and Anajmi)
OR No Imam and no-ones coming (Like Porus?)

[porus]

Dear Porus bhai,

FYI - Prophet Isa (a) too was new born and did conversation and convinced people! So, even a new born can take decision and indeed take convincing decision on doing convincing conversation.

Imam is borned as Imam. Infancy or adulthood make no difference. Imam is omnipotent. Hence, Molana va Aaka va Syyedina Imam Tayyib (a) did decided to go in 'satr'. Leave ample, you do not have even one categorical proof to verify he was killed in infancy.

Thanks,

I believe that Quran uses age old fables as a teaching device. We need not take everything it states literally. Creation of Adam, Virgin birth, Isa being raised to heaven, Isa talking in the cradle are all fables. If you apply similar fable to Imam al-Tayyib, you are unwittingly suggesting that 'his decision to go into satr' is also a fable.

Imams are never born as Imams. They are chosen by an incumbent Imam in a process of 'nuss'. If he was born and every Imam believed that, how would you account for multiple Imams making claims for Imamat themselves?

By the way, no one except Allah is omnipotent.

While there is no categorical proof that Imam al-Tayyib was killed in infancy, that is the inference, based on exhaustive research, of non-partisan scholars. Neither do you nor anyone else have any categorical proof that the Imam survived the coup d'teat. You have to believe that he survived otherwise it negates your faith. I do not begrudge you your faith.

Imam al-Tayyib's satr is a fundamental dogma of Bohras and, of course, I have no objection to them hanging on to it. The debate on this thread is a red herring started by Dai-worshippers to demand that proggies worship the Dai too. In the process, the myth had to be exposed.

[Humsafar]

1. Who's we?

Real, non-Dai-worshipping Dawoodi Bohras.

Why don't you accept what the dai is saying NOW? Rather you insult him. Sounds a bit strange to me. Insult now, and follow later on?

We accept everything that Dai says that DOES NOT violate the Quran, Daim and our DB traditions. But unfortunately the Dai hardly says or does anything without violating all these.
Even if told you won't understand. Let me try, Humsafar is That.

Do you believe in an existence of an Imam? And his coming? (Like US and Anajmi)

Just waiting for the Dai to reveal him to us.

OR No Imam and no-ones coming (Like Porus?)

Just waiting for the Dai to reveal him to us.