Dawoodi Bohra Forum

humanbeing wrote:

TaherH21 wrote:Syedna Ahmad al Naysaburi RA, the Hujjat of Imam al Aziz AS and Imam al Hakim AS said:

"...Those animals who refuse to be under the control of man, like beasts of prey, with no benefit or merit, are judged by reason and law that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy...."

(Kitaab Ithbat al Imama).”

can you please explain the part highlighted in bold !

The beasts of prey which are acceptable to kill in this context are analogous to the enemies of Imam al Hakim AS.

At the time, the Imam AS would have been waging jihad against the Byzantines and Abassids who refused to recognise the political and religious supremacy of the Fatimid Caliphs AS.

humanbeing wrote:

TaherH21 wrote:Syedna Ahmad al Naysaburi RA, the Hujjat of Imam al Aziz AS and Imam al Hakim AS said:

"...Those animals who refuse to be under the control of man, like beasts of prey, with no benefit or merit, are judged by reason and law that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy...."

(Kitaab Ithbat al Imama).”

can you please explain the part highlighted in bold !

It appears to me that Taher has not been to a circus, seen an elephant work in the logging industry or watched Life of Pi. If he'd had, he would not try to claim that humans cannot control these beasts.
Humans have always had the upper hand over wild animals. That places an even greater responsibility upon us to ensure that we do not wipe them off the face of this planet! Elephants are beautiful, intelligent, social animals. They mourn for their dead which shows they are emotional beings. Calling any man who kills them, an animal, is an insult to these creatures who would not harm anyone except to defend themselves.

well said OO53 !

apart from that, there are phrases mentioned in the quran, where Allah says, he has created communities of flora and fauna same as that of humans. also states co-exist with them and consume what is made lawful and do not exceed the limits.

Well said OO53.

"...Those animals who refuse to be under the control of man, like beasts of prey, with no benefit or merit, are judged by reason and law that it is acceptable kill, destroy and annihilate them because they refuse to obey human beings and remain under the control of their supremacy...."

God doesn't create anything without benefit or merit. The guy who wrote this must be drunk with alcohol or with power to have this kind of arrogance.

The beasts of prey which are acceptable to kill in this context are analogous to the enemies of Imam al Hakim AS.

So this is how you justify the SMS and his goons controlling Abdes/Amtes?

It appears to me that Taher has not been to a circus, seen an elephant work in the logging industry or watched Life of Pi. If he'd had, he would not try to claim that humans cannot control these beasts.
Humans have always had the upper hand over wild animals. That places an even greater responsibility upon us to ensure that we do not wipe them off the face of this planet! Elephants are beautiful, intelligent, social animals. They mourn for their dead which shows they are emotional beings. Calling any man who kills them, an animal, is an insult to these creatures who would not harm anyone except to defend themselves.

Obviously the author RA knew that animals can be tamed... he was making a point. As was I.

The Fatimid court itself had many exotic animals which were tamed, for example there is a record of ten tigers that used to be involved in processions.

Have a look at the link below:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6V9 ... rs&f=false

And before anyone starts to complain about the Imam's AS lavish lifestyle, please consider the following hadith of Imam Jafar al Sadiq AS:

"A man said to him, 'May I be thy ransom! What I like most among men is one who eats coarse food, and wears rough clothes and abases himself, and the marks of lowliness are apparent on him. The Imam said, Woe to thee! Humility is a matter of the heart. Have you not heard of a prophet, the son of a prophet, the grandson of a prophet, the great grandson of a prophet, who used to wear gowns of silk brocade embroidered in gold, and used to sit on the throne of the pharaohs and administer justice. The people had no concern with his dress; they were only concerned with his justice and equity...."

(Daim al Islam, Vol 2, pg 137 of the Fyzee translation. A similar narration is mentioned in al Kafi)

You do realise that a lavish lifestyle also has to be funded. Where are those funds going to come from? The Imams were rulers and presumably got their funds through such means. How are the Dais, shehzadas funding their lavish lifestyle?

Supreme beings as you are claiming, tame bacteria, fungus, viruses and other microbes.

Some yes, like yeast in bread making, lacto bacillus, etc. However, wipe them all? They will mutate or jump from different species.

Looks like the hiding Imam may be hiding in the jungle training animals so he doesn't have to kill them!!

The Imam said, Woe to thee! Humility is a matter of the heart. Have you not heard of a prophet, the son of a prophet, the grandson of a prophet, the great grandson of a prophet, who used to wear gowns of silk brocade embroidered in gold, and used to sit on the throne of the pharaohs and administer justice. The people had no concern with his dress; they were only concerned with his justice and equity...."

The fact that "justice and equity" is no longer in the equation, everything else comes into question. If your Dai hadn't been the corrupt human being that he is, if he had treated people with justice and equity and if he hadn't been living on other people's money, no one would question his life style. When did all these people become so stunted to not understand even the most basic of human principles?

No one questions the wealth of Bill Gates or the other billionaires who made their money through their own sweat and blood.

kimanumanu wrote:You do realise that a lavish lifestyle also has to be funded. Where are those funds going to come from? The Imams were rulers and presumably got their funds through such means. How are the Dais, shehzadas funding their lavish lifestyle?

Imam Jafar al Sadiq AS was not a political ruler.

If the Dai does not want to reveal how funding happens, he is under no obligation to do so. Because Imam al Muiz, did not reveal tax collection methods many times:

al Maqrizi (a Shafiite historian) says: "The exact amount al Muiz spent in Egypt was neither recorded nor known except to himself and his treasurers".

(Towards a Shii Mediterranean Empire, translated by Shainool Jiwa, Pg 116)

Dai is honest when he files his taxes. His education and degrees speak for him. How dare you guys think he got this job, his resume is listed with all his innovations. Thali and roti aside. Look at his titles...

If the Dai does not want to reveal how funding happens, he is under no obligation to do so. Because Imam al Muiz, did not reveal tax collection methods many times:

al Maqrizi (a Shafiite historian) says: "The exact amount al Muiz spent in Egypt was neither recorded nor known except to himself and his treasurers".

When the lawmaker is a thief, the first law he makes is to protect himself from being exposed. If these Imams were honest, there is absolutely no reason for them to hide the source of the wealth. But, they were not honest. They were looting the nations treasury. And that is why they invented these laws that are now being used by the bohra Dai to fleece the abde idiot.

Even the American politicians, some of the most corrupt people on earth, reveal their incomes and taxes before election time. But the Dai and the Imams were worst than even these politicians.

TaherH21 wrote:

It appears to me that Taher has not been to a circus, seen an elephant work in the logging industry or watched Life of Pi. If he'd had, he would not try to claim that humans cannot control these beasts.
Humans have always had the upper hand over wild animals. That places an even greater responsibility upon us to ensure that we do not wipe them off the face of this planet! Elephants are beautiful, intelligent, social animals. They mourn for their dead which shows they are emotional beings. Calling any man who kills them, an animal, is an insult to these creatures who would not harm anyone except to defend themselves.

Obviously the author RA knew that animals can be tamed... he was making a point. As was I.

The Fatimid court itself had many exotic animals which were tamed, for example there is a record of ten tigers that used to be involved in processions.

Have a look at the link below:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6V9 ... rs&f=false

And before anyone starts to complain about the Imam's AS lavish lifestyle, please consider the following hadith of Imam Jafar al Sadiq AS:

"A man said to him, 'May I be thy ransom! What I like most among men is one who eats coarse food, and wears rough clothes and abases himself, and the marks of lowliness are apparent on him. The Imam said, Woe to thee! Humility is a matter of the heart. Have you not heard of a prophet, the son of a prophet, the grandson of a prophet, the great grandson of a prophet, who used to wear gowns of silk brocade embroidered in gold, and used to sit on the throne of the pharaohs and administer justice. The people had no concern with his dress; they were only concerned with his justice and equity...."

(Daim al Islam, Vol 2, pg 137 of the Fyzee translation. A similar narration is mentioned in al Kafi)

By the author's own logic, these animals that can be tamed and can be of use to mankind must then not be hunted! Elephants are off-limits by that author's logic. Sorry, you lose this debate by your own argument.

^^^ Taher seems to be getting lost in his own argument. Let's see:

Taher: Oh but we can hunt wild animals because it says in our kitabs that we can hunt animals that humans cannot control.
OO53: Ummm but Humans CAN control wild animals! Look at elephants in the logging industry and look at lions in a circus...
Taher: Of course those animals can be controlled. I knew that...

Sigh.....Taher the necessary conclusion is, you cannot then hunt these animals. This is what happens when you try to use our books to support the distasteful excesses of a greedy, cruel man whom you and sadly me (in public) call "moula."

The Imam said, Woe to thee! Humility is a matter of the heart. Have you not heard of a prophet, the son of a prophet, the grandson of a prophet, the great grandson of a prophet, who used to wear gowns of silk brocade embroidered in gold, and used to sit on the throne of the pharaohs and administer justice.

By the way, does anyone remember that silk and gold has been made haraam for the men of the muslim ummah?

By the author's own logic, these animals that can be tamed and can be of use to mankind must then not be hunted! Elephants are off-limits by that author's logic. Sorry, you lose this debate by your own argument.

Actually, these abdes are so stupid that he might actually come back and say that the Dai only hunts elephants in the jungle that haven't been tamed. He doesn't go to a circus to hunt elephants.

If you take away Dai's wealth than the Chawala prime minister is more qulified to be Dai.

TaherH21 wrote:

kimanumanu wrote:You do realise that a lavish lifestyle also has to be funded. Where are those funds going to come from? The Imams were rulers and presumably got their funds through such means. How are the Dais, shehzadas funding their lavish lifestyle?

Imam Jafar al Sadiq AS was not a political ruler.

If the Dai does not want to reveal how funding happens, he is under no obligation to do so. Because Imam al Muiz, did not reveal tax collection methods many times:

al Maqrizi (a Shafiite historian) says: "The exact amount al Muiz spent in Egypt was neither recorded nor known except to himself and his treasurers".

(Towards a Shii Mediterranean Empire, translated by Shainool Jiwa, Pg 116)

Mr. Taher I dont have any Deeni knowledge and am also not aware of the history of Imams (apart from Panjatan) and former Dais. But i can say one thing for sure that all the pious leader DOES NOT HAVE WANTING FOR POWER AND WEALTH, now how will you defend this.

I accept your point that Imam al MOiz did not reveal tax collection but i assume that people who were paying taxes during those era may be knowing in whose well being money is used and plus i assume that Imam al Moiz living standard was low (considering he was Imam a deeni leader). Now come to these era cant you see with your wide eyes how our Dais and their 100's of family members live, dont you ever thought from where does the money comes to live like Kingsize life? after all they are not into any business.

How can a person who call himself Shafiq bawa can live like emperor when his lakhs of childrens are living in miserable condition?

Remember one thing my friend, if a person is pious his inner 'WILL' will never ever allow him to live ayyash life.

I would be more than happy if our Dai announce

1. Dont waste money by gifitng expensive Gift, instead share equivalent amount among needy.
2. Dont waste money by throwing expensive Ziafat, instead share equivalent amount among needy.
3. As masjid is house of Allah i will not charge any Iftitah amount, instead share equivalent amount among needy.
4. Will give muharram waaz without najwa, instead share equivalent amount among needy.
5. Instead of wasting abde money to arrange hunting licence he should order those rich abdes to share equivalent amount among needy.
6. Instead of wasting abde money in private jets and palaces and properties he (DAI) should share equivalent amount among needy.

Once he made above statement i think the living standards of each and every Bohra will be much much better in terms of financial and humanity wise.

I suggest that we post all the pictures of Kothari Hunting on the Facebook of this organization
https://www.facebook.com/conservation.intl

Here is another organization that has to be informed also regarding the hunting escapades of MS. This organization takes cruelty and killing of animals seriously and good mileage will be gained if this organization is made aware of MS hunting of innocent animals.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA)
--------------------------------------------------

Contact PETA

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To contact PETA, please choose the most appropriate option below, and if necessary we’ll get back to you as soon as possible.


http://www.peta.org/about-peta/contact-peta/

Chinese woman ivory smuggler caught in SMS hunting territory

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/09/africa/ta ... index.html

More than pleasure, Muffy Mafatlal maula seems to be hunting out of ego to tease his detractors. seems like muffy is an arrogant and egocentric man. Good for the community, he makes his idiocy visible for many to jump the fence at least in their hearts.

humanbeing wrote:More than pleasure, Muffy Mafatlal maula seems to be hunting out of ego to tease his detractors. seems like muffy is an arrogant and egocentric man. Good for the community, he makes his idiocy visible for many to jump the fence at least in their hearts.

as long as mufaddal controls community properties he is not going to lose any followers...hunting is nothing, even if he is caught in Las Vegas throwing money on girls, abdes will remain abdes and his followers.

real dai in bohra community is one who controls dawat property.

PEOPLE MUST WORK TO GET THESE PROPERTIES BACK IN PUBLIC HANDS.

Dua for Momeen.

yes, totally agree. The properties should be handed back to the local trustees. why were they so ignorant specially karachi jamaat to hand over all properties to 51st. Now people are slaves. They chopped their own feet. The crafty kothar usurped the wealth of the community and are living like lords. shame on the community which fortunately or unfortunately I am also a part of, but under no circumstances would i have licked any ones a...s and handed the properties which were a trust given to me by the people and belonged to the community.

Al Zulfiqar wrote:inspite of repeated clamour on this issue, the blood-thirsty beast mu-faad-daal goes around decimating wildlife, wasting half a million dollars of the community's funds on every shikar trip to fulfill his savage lust.

muffy's shikar activities may not be terribly important to reform, but every stricture and stoppage of his unethical and inhuman practices means another dent in his arrogance and high-handedness. it is one more step towards curbing his monstrous powers and another reminder to him that we who value god's creations will not sit idly by.

AZ what a pleasant surprise to read this great comment person with greenbold fonts. Please stay longer not like a solar eclipse.

AZ youare mistaken I have insignificant connections, I might have done a good job in writing such that it looks like I take credit, I am simple mamuli guy living in St Kilda, VIC enjoying latte , I report what's in the media or available via Internet

Now this time they have really surpressed hunting photos from circulation. Someone somewhere must have something.

Hunting pictures of Saifee Mahal leeches, sucking blood from "fellow" animals,
SMB and hes suckers, the spoilt brats and brothers of current religious cult leader, the devil in making, the one and only, Mufaddal Saifuddin, self proclaimed Dawoodi Bohra leader.
Please post all the ayyashi pictures here so the world can see what kind of devil he is.

I am sure all these animals now hunts burhanuddin in his qabr every day....he killed these beautiful creatures for just pleasure. and also wasted millions of community funds.

Salaams to all,

Latest rehmat na baarish on the baby elephant calf in Tanzania. What can one say !

FiAmanillah