The True Imam - How would you verify?

[Adam]

1. No
2. For the same reason sects were formed during the time of Imam Ali AS and other Imams. By not following the One True Leader.
3. For the same reasons stated above. The True Dai appointed by the Imam is present. They haven't entered. (You will also have to ask the Imam for that answer)
4. Refer to Q 1
5. The same reasons the first Satr happened. (You will have to ask the Imam for that answer). But during the Satr, the Imam appointed the Dai to continue the Dawat.

The Dai will verify to Dawoodi Bohras, the True Imam.

Now stranger, MY TURN.
Do you believe in the 21st Imam and the Imams after him in Satr? Yes or No?
If No, please clarify your stance on the Fatimid Imams.
If Yes, how will you verify the Imam during Zuhoor.

[stranger]

Imam in Satr means the identity of the Imam (Imam uz zamaan and not the 21st Imam with whom satr started) is concealed and it is not known to ordinary people outside his cabinet which includes other higher dignitaries of Dawat who are also in Satr with the Imam. The Imam uz zamaan is very much amongst our midst but we do not know his True identity. Which means he is aware of everything, every decision, every problem, every solution, every news, every affairs of the Dawat. So, ofcourse he already knows who are the false Dais other than the True one who is appointed through his authority.

1.) "Is Imam uz Zaman in physical contact with our current Da'i (TUS)" ? NO
4.) "If today, our Dai (TUS) or highest echelon of Dawa't are in contact with Imam uz Zaman" then why they don't give its proof to the other bohra sects and invite them to the true path of Haq ? NO

Dears,
Without any Contact with Current Da'i (TUS) and Dawat, how it is possible for Imam uz Zaman to be aware of everything, every decision, every problem, every solution, every news, every affairs of the Dawat ? Also, If there is No contact then How it is believed that Da'i (TUS) is appointed with authority/decision of Imam uz Zaman ?

[anajmi]

In the copy available on this website, "Wazkur fil kitaab Ismail" is headed with a letter in his own hand-writing by Rasulullah, which is from a Museum in Hyderabad.

porus,

Can you translate the contents of this letter?

[Adam]

Without any Contact with Current Da'i (TUS) and Dawat, how it is possible for Imam uz Zaman to be aware of everything, every decision, every problem, every solution, every news, every affairs of the Dawat ? Also, If there is No contact then How it is believed that Da'i (TUS) is appointed with authority/decision of Imam uz Zaman ?

Imam will have his ways, you don't worry about that.
The Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Maleka, there are documents to prove that.

Now, again, for the question which I directed to you STRANGER, which you chose to ignore:

Now stranger, MY TURN.
Do you believe in the 21st Imam and the Imams after him in Satr? Yes or No?
If No, please clarify your stance on the Fatimid Imams.
If Yes, how will you verify the Imam during Zuhoor.

[/color]

[profastian]

1. No
2. For the same reason sects were formed during the time of Imam Ali AS and other Imams. By not following the One True Leader.
3. For the same reasons stated above. The True Dai appointed by the Imam is present. They haven't entered. (You will also have to ask the Imam for that answer)
4. Refer to Q 1
5. The same reasons the first Satr happened. (You will have to ask the Imam for that answer). But during the Satr, the Imam appointed the Dai to continue the Dawat.

The Dai will verify to Dawoodi Bohras, the True Imam.

Now stranger, MY TURN.
Do you believe in the 21st Imam and the Imams after him in Satr? Yes or No?
If No, please clarify your stance on the Fatimid Imams.
If Yes, how will you verify the Imam during Zuhoor.

I will venture an answer to 3(the only valid question). The reason Imam doesn't come forward to prevent people from going astray is exactly the reason for Satr. The PRIMARY reason for Satr is to get the rubbish out of the fold. The reason Dais don't do tableeg is to get the rubbish out of the fold. Munafiqs like proggies find it hard to leave the fold during Zahoor and Imam's Sultanate.So they stay in the system and spread fitnat. So Imam has just made it easier for them. And the proggies have taken the bait. They think that they have put a dent in dawat by leaving the fold and lessening the numbers. But actually the results are exactly as the imam intended.

[anajmi]

So the Imam intended to leave the abde idiots who are incapable of thinking in the fold and the intelligent folks who are capable of thinking to leave? There is a reason for that. If only abde idiots remain in the fold, the Imam wan't be exposed for being a fraud like your Dai, atleast amongst the abde idiots.

[profastian]

Is there anyone on this forum who reads a whole anajmi post? I skip it after the first few lines.

[anajmi]

That is why my posts only have a few lines. I know abde idiot capacity very well.

[SBM]

Profstian
The PRIMARY reason for Satr is to get the rubbish out of the fold. The reason Dais don't do tableeg is to get the rubbish out of the fold.

So when are you leaving?

[progticide]

Dai Mutlaq office can cease to exist like that of office of Prophets. The "Dawaat" will keep on running till there is Mustakar Imam and is not 'mohtaaz' of presence or absence of Dai Mutlaq.

Doctor Mubarak,
You have made a great contribution to my above argument albeit unknowingly.

You have agreed above that Dai-e-Mutlaq's office can cease to exist like that of offices of Prophets. But I am sure then you would also agree that each time the office of one prophet ceased to exist, the prophet formally appointed or handed over the affairs to his sucessor to the office. Thus, the process followed upto Prophet Muhammad (SAW) formally appointing Maula Ali, and Maula Ali appointing Imam Hasan and Imam Hasan handing over reigns to Imam Husain and so on and so forth upto 21st Imam and then the reigns of Dawat passing onto Dais one after another upto the present 52nd Dai-e-Mutlaq. Now from what you say that Dawat will keep on running till there is Mustakar Imam, and that the line of Dais ended with 46th Dai, then there should have been a formal handover of the authority from 46th Dai to the Mustakar Imam, or otherwise from 46th Dai to the 47th Dai-e-Mutlaq. But in any case, a formal handover is obvious as from all the above historical references that you and I know of.

So, now please enlighten us from your vast knowledge as to which Mustakar Imam did the 46th Dai handed over back the affairs of dawat before passing from this world. If, it was not Mustakar Imam, then which other authority did the 46th Dai handover the reigns of Dawat to before passing away from this world. I am sure that you know that there will always be a manifest authority running the dawat, either the Mustakar Imam himself during period of kashf or an authority appointed by the Mustakar Imam during his seclusion. But, in any case there will be a manifest authority for mumineen on the face of earth.

The DB stand is clear that the line of succession of Dai-e-Mutlaq continues till date with present 52nd Dai-e-Mutlaq Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin(TUS) as head of the affairs of dawat with absolute authority during the period of satr of Imam uz zaman AS.

Now, I ask you, to which authority did the 46th Dai handover the affairs of dawat to as per your belief. Hope you would not shy away from answering this again.

[Muslim First]

Doctor Mubarak,
You have made a great contribution to my above argument albeit unknowingly.

You have agreed above that Dai-e-Mutlaq's office can cease to exist like that of offices of Prophets. But I am sure then you would also agree that each time the office of one prophet ceased to exist, the prophet formally appointed or handed over the affairs to his sucessor to the office. Thus, the process followed upto Prophet Muhammad (SAW) formally appointing Maula Ali, and Maula Ali appointing Imam Hasan and Imam Hasan handing over reigns to Imam Husain and so on and so forth upto 21st Imam and then the reigns of Dawat passing onto Dais one after another upto the present 52nd Dai-e-Mutlaq. Now from what you say that Dawat will keep on running till there is Mustakar Imam, and that the line of Dais ended with 46th Dai, then there should have been a formal handover of the authority from 46th Dai to the Mustakar Imam, or otherwise from 46th Dai to the 47th Dai-e-Mutlaq. But in any case, a formal handover is obvious as from all the above historical references that you and I know of.

So, now please enlighten us from your vast knowledge --------.

the prophet formally appointed or handed over the affairs to his sucessor to the office. Thus, the process followed upto Prophet Muhammad (SAW) formally appointing Maula Ali,

Br Porgie and other Shia Brothers

Here is main problem of Muslim Ummah. Can somebody conclusively prove that the Prophet SAW passed authority to Imam Ali in plain clear words so there are no two interpretation of it?

It is crystal clear that Maulana Burhnuddin appointed Maulai Muffi as 53rd. Can you post crystal clear account of appointment of Ali as Prophet's successor?
Wasalaam

[aqs]

Yes, Porus bhai, these are the names of Imam who immediately succeeded Molana Imam Tayyeb (a).

Approx 300 years ago was the era of Mola'e Syyedi Khan Jo Pheer (r), died on 2nd Mohrram H1118.

He was Mukasir.

Doctor Sahab,

Can you Please quote how many names are mentioned in the book and are there any other details available. And what about the original book(Moula Khani Ji peers or Syedna Idris), Do you or any other progs have it in possession.

If Dais knew the name of Imam's then they sure must have known the location of them also.

[stranger]

The Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Maleka, there are documents to prove that.

Fine, agreed that Imam appointed our first Da'i through Moulatena Hurratul Maleka and we have substantial proof of the same.
But the question is - " Is every Dai ( till 53rd) have been appointed by the Imam uz Zaman of the time." ?
If yes then How ?
If No then How would Imam will verify the true Da'i out of multiple Da'is ?

Now, again, for the question which I directed to you STRANGER, which you chose to ignore.
Now stranger, MY TURN.

Do you believe in the 21st Imam and the Imams after him in Satr ? Yes or No?

YES

If Yes, how will you verify the Imam during Zuhoor.

I donno as of now, but I keep bowing down to Allah (SWT) and seeks help from him to lead me on true path of Islam and seeks mercy to forgive my sins.
And I am pretty sure that when there will be Zuhoor of True Imam then Allah (SWT), the most merciful and the most Bountiful, will guide me to him.

[Adam]

@Muslim First. Take your question to a Shia Sunni debate of Nass on Imam Ali AS (The majority of "The opposition" disagrees with you any, but are too scared to face you)

@Stranger:

Fine, agreed that Imam appointed our first Da'i through Moulatena Hurratul Maleka and we have substantial proof of the same.
But the question is - " Is every Dai ( till 53rd) have been appointed by the Imam uz Zaman of the time." ?
If yes then How ?

P.S You better agree with that, because that's the base of your claim :p
Every the first Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Malekah. And every Dai appointed his Mansoos, the next Dai.

If No then How would Imam will verify the true Da'i out of multiple Da'is ?

It's an unbroken chain of "True" Dais. One after the other.
But in your case, the chain has been broken, without a leader, you're lost.

Thank you for answering MY question to you:

If Yes, how will you verify the Imam during Zuhoor.

You answered:

I donno as of now, but I keep bowing down to Allah (SWT) and seeks help from him to lead me on true path of Islam and seeks mercy to forgive my sins.....

Which answers the simple question that was originally posted.
How would you verify the Imam?
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam. Yaqeen.
Proggies = Don't know (They are in "Shak" rather than "Yaqeen", more like guess work?

I think the thread has been answered?[/color]

[anajmi]

My Dai Futlak was directly appointed by the Imam and not by a previous Dai. Which means that my Dai Futlak is more infallible than your Dai and will be able to verify the Imam more correctly than your Dai.

[Adam]

Anajmi

My Dai Futlak was directly appointed by the Imam

Nice try to divert a conversation that is nearing an end. (You don't like that do you

So who is YOUR "Dai Futlak"? Doesn't seem like you have too much respect for him.
If he the loser in your masjid? Or someone else. Please clarify. (Unless who have more idiotic things to say)

Which answers the simple question that was originally posted in accordance to STRANGER.

How would you verify the Imam?
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know

I think the thread has been answered?

[anajmi]

So who is YOUR "Dai Futlak"?

My Dai Futlak is the great infallible Dai who was directly appointed by the infallible Imam. His name is Syedna Maluddin Leuddin Khauddin (TUS-$Rs).

Since my Dai Futlak was directly appointed by the infallible Imam he is infallible and is the only one who can reveal the true Imam to us.

[Adam]

Oh. Okay. I actually thought you had something intelligent to say. Guess not.
For the other "intellgent" people, this is what I posted, before I was interrupted by a crying child.

@Muslim First. Take your question to a Shia Sunni debate of Nass on Imam Ali AS (The majority of "The opposition" disagrees with you any, but are too scared to face you)

@Stranger:

Fine, agreed that Imam appointed our first Da'i through Moulatena Hurratul Maleka and we have substantial proof of the same.
But the question is - " Is every Dai ( till 53rd) have been appointed by the Imam uz Zaman of the time." ?
If yes then How ?

P.S You better agree with that, because that's the base of your claim :p
Every the first Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Malekah. And every Dai appointed his Mansoos, the next Dai.

If No then How would Imam will verify the true Da'i out of multiple Da'is ?

It's an unbroken chain of "True" Dais. One after the other.
But in your case, the chain has been broken, without a leader, you're lost.

Thank you for answering MY question to you:

If Yes, how will you verify the Imam during Zuhoor.

You answered:

I donno as of now, but I keep bowing down to Allah (SWT) and seeks help from him to lead me on true path of Islam and seeks mercy to forgive my sins.....

Which answers the simple question that was originally posted.
How would you verify the Imam?
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam. Yaqeen.
Proggies = Don't know (They are in "Shak" rather than "Yaqeen", more like guess work?

I think the thread has been answered?[/color]

[anajmi]

This was the answer from the Proggies.

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[stranger]

Every the first Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Malekah. And every Dai appointed his Mansoos, the next Dai.

Adam,
you mean that every "Dai" appointed his mansoos, Not "Imam" appointed the mansoos ( or future Da'i)...Imam uz zaman is not in picture ?
If so, then how Imam uz zaman will verify the True Dai out of multiple Dais ?

Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam. Yaqeen.
Proggies = Don't know (They are in "Shak" rather than "Yaqeen", more like guess work?

Adam,
you claims that Dai will verify the true Imam for bohras but for that you need to answer the above question that how Imam Uz Zaman will verify/identify that DB Dai is True Dai at first place ?
wrt yaqeen : my yaqeen is more on Allah (SWT) than to yakeen on mortal humans and hence i am sure of one thing that i won't get betrayed in any case.

and yea, I dont know your definition of progressive but believe me I am very much a common orthodox bohra and I dont care much about accountability. . I care little about salam and najwas..Its OK i can still swallow it somehow as they are somewhere materialistic things but brother i really get fed up of attending Waa'z and Majlises where the Name of Allah ( SWT) is taken once after taking the name of Dai and his mansoos for 100 times.
Rip me off materially but don't rip me off spiritually, its hard to swallow.

[SBM]

Stranger
Rip me off materially but don't rip me off spiritually, its hard to swallow.

Wow Kudos Brother very strong words indeed

[porus]

Rip me off materially but don't rip me off spiritually..

In either case, I would aware become of my own responsibility for allowing myself to be ripped off.

Once you are aware and see the injustice of it, then you would need to ask what your response should be. If you profess to have faith in Allah and His Messenger, then Quran would be a good source for how to handle the situation.

Allah is not pleased with either active or passive tolerance of injustice.

[progticide]

Dai Mutlaq office can cease to exist like that of office of Prophets. The "Dawaat" will keep on running till there is Mustakar Imam and is not 'mohtaaz' of presence or absence of Dai Mutlaq.

Doctor Mubarak,
You have made a great contribution to my above argument albeit unknowingly.

You have agreed above that Dai-e-Mutlaq's office can cease to exist like that of offices of Prophets. But I am sure then you would also agree that each time the office of one prophet ceased to exist, the prophet formally appointed or handed over the affairs to his sucessor to the office. Thus, the process followed upto Prophet Muhammad (SAW) formally appointing Maula Ali, and Maula Ali appointing Imam Hasan and Imam Hasan handing over reigns to Imam Husain and so on and so forth upto 21st Imam and then the reigns of Dawat passing onto Dais one after another upto the present 52nd Dai-e-Mutlaq. Now from what you say that Dawat will keep on running till there is Mustakar Imam, and that the line of Dais ended with 46th Dai, then there should have been a formal handover of the authority from 46th Dai to the Mustakar Imam, or otherwise from 46th Dai to the 47th Dai-e-Mutlaq. But in any case, a formal handover is obvious as from all the above historical references that you and I know of.

So, now please enlighten us from your vast knowledge as to which Mustakar Imam did the 46th Dai handed over back the affairs of dawat before passing from this world. If, it was not Mustakar Imam, then which other authority did the 46th Dai handover the reigns of Dawat to before passing away from this world. I am sure that you know that there will always be a manifest authority running the dawat, either the Mustakar Imam himself during period of kashf or an authority appointed by the Mustakar Imam during his seclusion. But, in any case there will be a manifest authority for mumineen on the face of earth.

The DB stand is clear that the line of succession of Dai-e-Mutlaq continues till date with present 52nd Dai-e-Mutlaq Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin(TUS) as head of the affairs of dawat with absolute authority during the period of satr of Imam uz zaman AS.

Now, I ask you, to which authority did the 46th Dai handover the affairs of dawat to as per your belief. Hope you would not shy away from answering this again.

[SBM]

One thing I noticed that how smartly Adam and Progticide have avoided answering Stranger's simple question despite the fact that Stranger identified his belief as per Bawa Adam's criteria
And their silence about Poverty among Bohras is very very deafening. Adam just put one sentence but never provided the solutions, Being Kothari
Plants on this forum they do not believe that DB face poverty like they say MEHLOON MEIN REHNE WALE HAMEY TERE DAR SE KIYA....

[Adam]

@Progticide
I think we've already got the answer to the question you posted to Stranger:

Now, I ask you, to which authority did the 46th Dai handover the affairs of dawat to as per your belief. Hope you would not shy away from answering this again.

The answer would be : I don't know

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know

[Humsafar]

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[anajmi]

If you read the seerah of the prophet (saw) you will see that when he was commanded by Allah to declare his call in the open, he climbed on top of the mountain and made the announcement himself. At that time there were people who were his close followers, like Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Abu Bakr and others but none of them had the responsibility of "verifying" the prophet. The prophet (saw) stood up on the mountain and announced it himself. An Imam who needs the Dai verification can safely be rejected as a puppet.

[stranger]

Adam/Progticide,

I answered your question but I still have not got the reply of my query yet :-

Adam wrote:
Every the first Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Malekah. And every Dai appointed his Mansoos, the next Dai.

Stranger,
you mean that every "Dai" appointed his mansoos, Not "Imam" appointed the mansoos ( or future Da'i)...Imam uz zaman is not in picture ?
If so, then how Imam uz zaman will verify the True Dai out of multiple Dais ?
you claims that DB Dai will verify the true Imam for DB bohras but for that you need to answer the above question that how Imam Uz Zaman will verify/identify that DB Dai is True Dai at first place ?

[ghulam muhammed]

This thread has run up to 19 pages and have had more then 8600 visits but the originator of this thread, Adam comes out with a few stereo typed words like "So how will you verify your Imam" and "Proggies are confused, confused". The words "confused, confused" appears quite often and in his zest to close down this thread abruptly one would see that "confused" is actually a reflection of his own thoughts !! The simple answer to this is that till now he has been avoiding some very important questions like the fallibility of Dai Abe Abdellah due to the Imam whacking him as per Adam's holy literature -- fatimid books. He also refuses to answer as to why the present dai earns "Daru ni kamai" by way of rent accrued from liqour shops in properties owned by him and also why is the dai indirectly earning "interest income" by way of leasing out his properties to banks.

The above questions have put him in a serious dilema due to which the one who is truly confused is Adam himself and thereby he seeks answers from the proggies as he knows that under no circumstances can the true imam further the cause of a dai who is indulged in the above mentioned practices and moreover the question of infallibility of the dai remains unanswered as per Dai Abe Abdellah's incident which is duly recorded in fatimid literature. Hence please help him out by removing his confused phobia

[progticide]

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

Humsafar,
Atleast we are beginning to influence your grammar already. I see the words changing fom "Your" to "Our" above. Nothing to feel offended. I dont mean any sarcasm. This is a sign of some healthy discussion despite numerous attempts to derail the subject.

You may not agree to everything that I say, and vice versa. And every debate may not necessarily end on an agreement.

The five fingers in every hand are of different shapes and sizes. But they still exist in harmony each one knowing its own place and significance.