The True Imam - How would you verify?

[progticide]

Adam/Progticide,

I answered your question but I still have not got the reply of my query yet :-

Adam wrote:
Every the first Dai was appointed by the Imam through Moulatena Hurratul Malekah. And every Dai appointed his Mansoos, the next Dai.

Stranger,
you mean that every "Dai" appointed his mansoos, Not "Imam" appointed the mansoos ( or future Da'i)...Imam uz zaman is not in picture ?
If so, then how Imam uz zaman will verify the True Dai out of multiple Dais ?
you claims that DB Dai will verify the true Imam for DB bohras but for that you need to answer the above question that how Imam Uz Zaman will verify/identify that DB Dai is True Dai at first place ?

Stranger,
I have answered this question already in one of the above post clarifying about Satr of Imam. Maybe you didn't bother to read carefully. I'll try and explain to the best of my ability.
Since the Imam is in Satr, we do not know his identity, but the Imam knows everything that is happening around him, in this world, in the community, in the dawat affairs, everything. If you have seen a one-sided mirror glass. A person facing the mirror does not see anything on the other side except his own reflection, whereas the person standing behind that mirror on the other side is capable of seeing this person and everything else of the other side. This is only an analogy to explain you. Therefore, your question is absurd in the sense that if the Imam uz zaman were unaware of any affairs in the community, then he would have needed to first identify the Dai and other things. But the Imam is never oblivious to the affairs of the Dawat and the world in general, and thus even during his seclusion he knows who is the rightfully appointed Dai and who is an imposter. Hence, the question of verifying the Dai does not exist since the Imam already knows who is his authentic Dai.

About the technical aspects related to Dai appointing his Mansoos or Imam appointing the Mansoos etc. you wont get those answers on open forums. So it would be futile for you to persist with that question, if that is your intention, because you'll only end up with some idiots giving their own perception or opinions without having a slighest clue of the facts.

Hope your question is answered.

[SBM]

Progticide
Since the Imam is in Satr, we do not know his identity, but the Imam knows everything that is happening around him, in this world, in the community, in the dawat affairs, everything.

Then how do you explain that Dai Syedna Taher Saifuddin who denied the existance of Imam in Satr If Dai has already denied the existence of an Imam the how do you trust the subsequent Dais who are appointed by Syedna Taher Saifuddin to verify ANY IMAM?

[Humsafar]

Humsafar,
Atleast we are beginning to influence your grammar already. I see the words changing fom "Your" to "Our" above. Nothing to feel offended. I dont mean any sarcasm. This is a sign of some healthy discussion despite numerous attempts to derail the subject.

You may not agree to everything that I say, and vice versa. And every debate may not necessarily end on an agreement.

The five fingers in every hand are of different shapes and sizes. But they still exist in harmony each one knowing its own place and significance.

Pesticide, you're obsessing about the grammar but missed the message, which of course has not changed.
And thanks for your profound insight on "five fingers", but I missed the meaning and relevance of it to what we are talking. If there is a taawil please fill us in.

[anajmi]

pesticide wants you to show him the middle finger. That will make the "five fingers" relevant.

[Adam]

I would like to add to Progticides answer to stranger. (Analogy of the mirror)

For the sake of clarity, Since the Dawat infact has been in the "open" right throughout the first Dai, it is very easy for someone (The Imam) to physically oversee the Dawat affairs and especially the link of Dai after Dai.

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

[Humsafar]

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Humsafar]

Also, on a poetic note with apologies to Ghalib:
Hum ko maloom hai Imam ki haqiqat lekin
Dai ko kush rakhne ko Adam ye khayal achha hai

[anajmi]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?

Confusion, confusion??

[ghulam muhammed]

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

First answer the following then blow your trumpet :-


This thread has run up to 19 pages and have had more then 8600 visits but the originator of this thread, Adam comes out with a few stereo typed words like "So how will you verify your Imam" and "Proggies are confused, confused". The words "confused, confused" appears quite often and in his zest to close down this thread abruptly one would see that "confused" is actually a reflection of his own thoughts !! The simple answer to this is that till now he has been avoiding some very important questions like the fallibility of Dai Abe Abdellah due to the Imam whacking him as per Adam's holy literature -- fatimid books. He also refuses to answer as to why the present dai earns "Daru ni kamai" by way of rent accrued from liqour shops in properties owned by him and also why is the dai indirectly earning "interest income" by way of leasing out his properties to banks.

The above questions have put him in a serious dilema due to which the one who is truly confused is Adam himself and thereby he seeks answers from the proggies as he knows that under no circumstances can the true imam further the cause of a dai who is indulged in the above mentioned practices and moreover the question of infallibility of the dai remains unanswered as per Dai Abe Abdellah's incident which is duly recorded in fatimid literature. Hence please help him out by removing his confused phobia

[Adam]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?

Stranger is not an Abde. He's made that very clear.
He claims to be a Proggy. And a confused one for that matter. (Confusion and Proggyness come hand in hand, it's a part of the deal)


Summarizing this thread:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

[anajmi]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?
Confusion, confusion??

Here is the progressive stand.

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

Stranger is not an Abde. He's made that very clear.
He claims to be a Proggy. And a confused one for that matter. (Confusion and Proggyness come hand in hand, it's a part of the deal)

Humsafar is equally confused. He insults the same Dai that he supposedly claims will verify the Imam.
Anajmi, don't worry your self too much about the Imam and verifying.

Summarizing this thread:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

[humanbeing]

Adam
Will 52nd Dai verify the Imam ?

[anajmi]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?
Confusion, confusion??

Here is the progressive stand.

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

Adam
Will 52nd Dai verify the Imam ?

The Dai at the time of Zuhoor will verify the Imam.

Summarizing this thread:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

[anajmi]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?
Confusion, confusion??

Here is the progressive stand.

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

@Humsafar
You've been quoting that you'll follow the Dai when the time to verify the Imam comes.

Why not now?
Summarizing this thread:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

[progticide]

Summarizing:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

Humsafar,
In the unfortunate event that death comes to you before the Zuhoor of the Imam, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter?

I have a strong feeling that again it will we one of your ridicule-centric responses. But just in case you were willing to think sincerely and respond, what would be your stand now?

[stranger]

Stranger,
I have answered this question already in one of the above post clarifying about Satr of Imam. Maybe you didn't bother to read carefully. I'll try and explain to the best of my ability.
Since the Imam is in Satr, we do not know his identity, but the Imam knows everything that is happening around him, in this world, in the community, in the dawat affairs, everything. If you have seen a one-sided mirror glass. A person facing the mirror does not see anything on the other side except his own reflection, whereas the person standing behind that mirror on the other side is capable of seeing this person and everything else of the other side. This is only an analogy to explain you. Therefore, your question is absurd in the sense that if the Imam uz zaman were unaware of any affairs in the community, then he would have needed to first identify the Dai and other things. But the Imam is never oblivious to the affairs of the Dawat and the world in general, and thus even during his seclusion he knows who is the rightfully appointed Dai and who is an imposter. Hence, the question of verifying the Dai does not exist since the Imam already knows who is his authentic Dai.

Hope your question is answered.

well, thats not the answer of my question. your analogy and all explanation is fine but the question was " HOW " :- How He Knows ?

About the technical aspects related to Dai appointing his Mansoos or Imam appointing the Mansoos etc. you wont get those answers on open forums. So it would be futile for you to persist with that question, if that is your intention, because you'll only end up with some idiots giving their own perception or opinions without having a slighest clue of the facts.

Actually, you also don't know the answers and I doubt if anyone really do.

[Adam]

Humsafar,
In the unfortunate event that death comes to you before the Zuhoor of the Imam, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter?

I have a strong feeling that again it will we one of your ridicule-centric responses. But just in case you were willing to think sincerely and respond, what would be your stand now?[/quote]

I was going to ask the same question to Humsfar, but you beat me to it
I really doubt he can give an intelligent answer.

From where I see it:
Summarizing this thread:
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)
[/color]

[anajmi]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?
Confusion, confusion??

Abde Idiot Dawoodi Bohras = Actually, you also don't know the answers and I doubt if anyone really do (quoting stranger).
stranger = and yea, I dont know your definition of progressive but believe me I am very much a common orthodox bohra and I dont care much about accountability (quoting stranger)

Here is the progressive stand.

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

@anajmi
You've already proved to be a Wahabi and a DB hater. So you shouldn't be talking for the "Dawoodi Bohra" (Mushriks according to you) Proggys.

Humsafar,

In the unfortunate event that death comes to you before the Zuhoor of the Imam, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter?
I have a strong feeling that again it will we one of your ridicule-centric responses. But just in case you were willing to think sincerely and respond, what would be your stand now?

You've been quoting that you'll follow the Dai when the time to verify the Imam comes.
Why not now?

The Progressive stance is clear:
They don't know how to verify the Imam (Quoting Stranger - The Proggy)
Dawoodi Bohras will verify the Imam through their Dai. (Quoting Adam, Progticide and another Dawoodi Bohras)

[Adam]

The above just comes to show how lost the Proggies are.
They are confused of their basic beliefs in the Imam. Just imagine the rest!

[anajmi]

Here is another ayah from the Quran that lays waste to the abde idiot argument that everything is written in the Imam who is a human.

22:70 أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ فِي كِتَابٍ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرٌ

Dost thou not know that God knows all that occurs in heaven as well as on earth? All this, behold, is in [God’s] record: verily, [to know] all this is easy for God.

[anajmi]

Here is the reality

Abde Idiot Dawoodi Bohras = Actually, you also don't know the answers and I doubt if anyone really do (quoting stranger).

Quoting Proggies -
DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Hanif]

In the unfortunate event that death comes to you before the Zuhoor of the Imam, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter?

Please tell me, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter if death comes to you before the Zuhoor? Has the Dai already revealed the Imam to you so that in the event of sudden death you will recognise the Imam in the hereafter? If he has then why are the majority of the Abdes not aware of this?

[ghulam muhammed]

The above just comes to show how lost the Proggies are.They are confused of their basic beliefs in the Imam. Just imagine the rest!

First of all learn what is "basic beliefs" from the Quran and regarding confusion it is abdes like you who are TOTALLY confused as their claims of an infallible dai are tattered into pieces by their own holy books which proves beyond doubt the fallibility of Dai Abe Abdullah and moreoever they expect the true Imam to side with the present dai who is neck deep in various inhuman and unislamic practices like accepting "Daru ni kamai" and "Interest Income" to name a few. So go figure out who is "Confused" and who is lead "Astray".

[Muslim First]

Basic Belief of a Muslim
Six belief and five pillars

(From ISLAM THE ALTERNATIVE By Murad Hoffman, Amana publications
Chapter Complete faith, Pages 11-12)

‘Muslim’ is someone who finds peace in submission to God specifically in accordance with Qur’an and the Prophet’s model behavior (Sunnah); this includes earlier revelations as much as they are authentic and valid.

Thus, for example, a Muslim follows the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament and commandment to love thy neighbor of the New Testament. For him, as for Jews and Christians who have maintained their belief, there are six articles of faith, which according to the Qur’an are basis of theological understanding of cosmic reality (Q 2:285, 4:136, 9:51):

• the existence of the God;
• the existence of other spiritual beings (“His angels”):
• the existence of divine revelation (“His books”);
• the sending of prophets (“His messengers);
• Final judgment/Life after death;
• Predestination (‘Fatalism”)

These beliefs have been precisely stated in Al-Imanul Mufassal, the faith in detail:

Amantu Billahi, Wa Malaikathi, wa Kutubih, wa Rusulihi, wal Yawmil Akhiri, wal Qadri, Khairihi wa Sharrahi minal Lahi Taala, Wal Bathi Badal Mawt.

That means:

I believe in Allah, in His Angels, in His Books, in His messengers, in Last day (Day of Judgment) and in the fact everything good or bad is decided by Allah, the Almighty, and in Life after death.

Here is what Murad Hoffmana former German diplomat writes in his book “Islam the Alternative”

A Muslim lives in a world without clergy and without religious hierarchy; when he prays he does not pray via Jesus, Mary or other interceding saints, but directly to God-as fully emancipated believer-and this in a religion free of mysteries. An atmosphere of this kind suits the modern democratic citizen come of age far better then the wondrous, mystery stricken atmosphere of Byzantine and Catholic Churches, geared towards “Intercession” and focusing sacraments administered by clergymen.
(Islam the Alternative (Amana Publication) , Page 15



On the other hand, Islam prescribes code of conduct and worship which is specific to it alone, and which, together with profession of faith (Shahadah), comprises the so-called ‘five pillars’:

• Ritual prayers at fixed times, five times a day (salah)
• The annual payment of a capital tax (zakah)
• Fasting during the day throughout the month of Ramadan (swam)
• As far as possible, a pilgrimage to Makkah (hajj)

These pillars show that Islam is based on belief and deed, prayer and work; even spiritual activities such as prayers are linked to physical activities. This is clearly expressed in Surat al ‘Asr reveled in Makkah:

Surely man is in continuous loss, except those who believe and do good deeds and urge one another to act rightfully and urge he another to exercise patience. (Q 103-:1-3)

[Adam]

@Muslim First
Please try to act intelligent and stick to the current thread topic.

@Anajmi - We know you don't believe in the Imamat and the Imam (but you're also confused about the coming of some Imam later on), so kindly keep your Imamat opinions to yourself.

Please tell me, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter if death comes to you before the Zuhoor? Has the Dai already revealed the Imam to you so that in the event of sudden death you will recognise the Imam in the hereafter? If he has then why are the majority of the Abdes not aware of this?

Again, twsiting words.
Answer is simple. We are the Dais followers. He will verify the Imam to us. That's our stand.
Now, what's yours.
Quoting stranger (who's of the same belief as you?), he says he doesn't know.
We can leave it at that, unless you want to add your own "different" opinion that of strangers.

It's unfortunately suprising that not many progs have the brains or the courage to answer such a fundamentally easy but important par of their beliefs. Belief in the Imam.

[anajmi]

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?
Confusion, confusion??

Abde Idiot Dawoodi Bohras = Actually, you also don't know the answers and I doubt if anyone really do (quoting stranger).
stranger = and yea, I dont know your definition of progressive but believe me I am very much a common orthodox bohra and I dont care much about accountability (quoting stranger)

Here is the progressive stand.

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.