The True Imam - How would you verify?

[anajmi]

@Anajmi - We know you don't believe in the Imamat and the Imam (but you're also confused about the coming of some Imam later on), so kindly keep your Imamat opinions to yourself.

Actually, my opinions are the same as those of the Quran thank you very much.

[Humsafar]

Humsafar,
In the unfortunate event that death comes to you before the Zuhoor of the Imam, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter?

I have a strong feeling that again it will we one of your ridicule-centric responses. But just in case you were willing to think sincerely and respond, what would be your stand now?

Good lord, pesticide, I never considered that question. Ever since I read it I'm having sleepless nights. How in heaven am I going to recognise the Imam. How, oh for crying out loud how? I'm tearing at my hair, my clothes, in my maddened frenzy I've stopped eating and drinking, my family and friends no longer talk to me as I keep asking them "how will I identify the Imam after death". They laugh at me and are planning to take me to the loony bin. But I don't care, all I want to do is die so that I can find an answer to this question. I just want to die. Oh Imam, Imam wherever you are whoever you are pls take me.

[anajmi]

The abde idiots should be asking this question. How will you recognize Allah in the hereafter? Only the Dai can verify the True Imam and only the True Imam can verify Allah. So the rest of us will never be able to recognize the true Allah in the hereafter!!

[anajmi]

According to the Quran, on the day of judgement, your record will be presented to you. If presented in the right hand, all is good. If presented in the left hand, you go to hell. Now according to the abde idiots, the Imam is the one that is the record of everything. So, it looks like Allah will be giving your Imam to you in your right hand or left hand. So what this means is that you do not need the Dai in the hereafter.

[Adam]

HUMSAFAR:

But I don't care, all I want to do is die so that I can find an answer to this question. I just want to die. Oh Imam, Imam wherever you are whoever you are pls take me.

From the above post, it is quite obvious that Humsafars belief in the Imam are not weak, he ridicules the subject entirely.
He doesn't seem religious and steadfast to his beliefs, and like is above posts, he's been ridiculing this subject altogether.
Two conclusions.
1. He has no belief in any Imam whatsoever, rather, makes fun of it.
2. Is so confused that he tries to hide it with shallow sarcasm.

Which one is it?
If i'm wrong, state your opinion and belief loud and clear.

[Humsafar]

How dare you pronounce my deep truths as "shallow sarcasm"! Haven't you learnt nothing from your masters? They not only ridicule the Imam but have actually sold him down the river.

[anajmi]

Adam,

As you might've noticed, it doesn't seem that people believe you to be deserving of a serious response anymore. We are getting pretty tired of your shtick.

[ghulam muhammed]

It's unfortunately suprising that not many progs have the brains or the courage to answer such a fundamentally easy but important par of their beliefs.

It is surprising that NONE of the abdes have the brains or the courage to answer such a fundamental question as to why Dai Abe Abdellah was whacked by the Imam which demolishes their very fundamental belief of an infallible dai and how can an Imam approve of a dai who enjoys "Daru Ni Kamai" and "Interest Income" leave aside his mass extortions and public felicitations of the YAZIDS of today !!!!

[Hanif]

@Muslim First
Please try to act intelligent and stick to the current thread topic.

@Anajmi - We know you don't believe in the Imamat and the Imam (but you're also confused about the coming of some Imam later on), so kindly keep your Imamat opinions to yourself.

Please tell me, how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter if death comes to you before the Zuhoor? Has the Dai already revealed the Imam to you so that in the event of sudden death you will recognise the Imam in the hereafter? If he has then why are the majority of the Abdes not aware of this?

Again, twsiting words.
Answer is simple. We are the Dais followers. He will verify the Imam to us. That's our stand.
Now, what's yours.
Quoting stranger (who's of the same belief as you?), he says he doesn't know.
We can leave it at that, unless you want to add your own "different" opinion that of strangers.

It's unfortunately suprising that not many progs have the brains or the courage to answer such a fundamentally easy but important par of their beliefs. Belief in the Imam.

How am I twisting words? brothers. Do you understand your own question? You asked how are you going to recognise the Imam in the hereafter if death comes to you before the Zuhoor

I asked the same of you. And you tell me your Dai is going to verify the Imam. Now at the moment the Dai does not know the Imam because he has not appeared and say you are going to die right now, how will you recognise the Imam in the heareafter? How is the Dai going to help you. Please don't give me silly answer like the Dai will identify him. How? You will be up. Is the Dai going to go up with you identify the Imam and come back and go back with another dead. There are a million bohoras and I am sure some die in other parts of the world where the Dai is not present. Please give an intelligent answerYou guys are the confused ones.

Now prove to me how Dai is infallible because I proved to you Dais are not infallible.

Prove to me your Dai is from the Line of Imam Jaffar Sadiq because I proved you wrong.

Instead of going in circles, please respond. May be we will learn a thing or two from you. I am always open to learning.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro Hanif,

The escape route taken by the likes of Adam is due to the fact that in the final halka of sabaks abdes are told that the dai himself is the Imam. I know that this will be vehemently refuted by them because there is no written document to that effect but believe me I have been told this by a diehard hardcore abde who had attended all the sabaks. We very well know that abdes have to take an oath of secrecy whilst attending sabaks which many usually do not break but there are still some who spill the beans in a state of frenzy. I have heard plenty of absurd things from these sabak going lot which I would not like to disclose as again they will refuse to accept that in the absence of written literature as that is a very convenient tool for them to hide their true beliefs and keep the mainstream muslims in dark.

[Hanif]

Bro Hanif,

The escape route taken by the likes of Adam is due to the fact that in the final halka of sabaks abdes are told that the dai himself is the Imam. I know that this will be vehemently refuted by them because there is no written document to that effect but believe me I have been told this by a diehard hardcore abde who had attended all the sabaks. We very well know that abdes have to take an oath of secrecy whilst attending sabaks which many usually do not break but there are still some who spill the beans in a state of frenzy. I have heard plenty of absurd things from these sabak going lot which I would not like to disclose as again they will refuse to accept that in the absence of written literature as that is a very convenient tool for them to hide their true beliefs and keep the mainstream muslims in dark.

How are they going to prove that the Dai is from the Progeny of Ahle Bayt? Yes, I hav heard these rumors too but don't they have brains? Why rely on Sabaks only, why not think hard and wonder that no Dai or religious leader would exploit his people, torture them, and send lanats on people they know nothing about, but because somebody says so. First of all, no religious leader would send lanats on his bitterest enemy. Prophet SAW and other Prophets before him always forgave their enemies.Then they have the nerve to call the reformists "confused" and ask questions like "how would you verify your Imam?" When they themselves don't have a clue!

I do not buy into their story that the Dai would verify the Imam! That's a lot of hogwash.

[Adam]

@Humsafar

How dare you pronounce my deep truths as "shallow sarcasm"!

I didn't. You did, by ridiculing the subject of Imamat in your post:

Good lord, pesticide, I never considered that question. Ever since I read it I'm having sleepless nights. How in heaven am I going to recognise the Imam. How, oh for crying out loud how? I'm tearing at my hair, my clothes, in my maddened frenzy I've stopped eating and drinking, my family and friends no longer talk to me as I keep asking them "how will I identify the Imam after death". They laugh at me and are planning to take me to the loony bin. But I don't care, all I want to do is die so that I can find an answer to this question. I just want to die. Oh Imam, Imam wherever you are whoever you are pls take me.

HANIF

how will you recognise the Imam in the heareafter? How is the Dai going to help you. Please don't give me silly answer like the Dai will identify him. How? You will be up. Is the Dai going to go up with you identify the Imam and come back and go back with another dead.

Imam Ali (do you believe in him?) told Haris e Hamdan that whoever dies will see me. من يمت يرني .
This is applicable in accordance to DB faith to every Imam. In Satr, the Dai represents the Imam.
So, we will "see" the Imam, and the Dai will verify.
That's our stand. Whether you accept it or not.
But what's yours? Either you don't have one, or are confused to explain it.

Now prove to me how Dai is infallible

I've already told you.
Read Syedna Hatims and Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habibullah books on this subject.

Prove to me your Dai is from the Line of Imam Jaffar Sadiq because I proved you wrong.

I already told you, whethe ANY Dai Muthlaq is or isn't from the line of any Imam doesn't affect the infallibility.

[anajmi]

So, we will "see" the Imam, and the Dai will verify.

Does that mean that you will see more than one Imam and the Dai will have to verify the correct Imam? Or does this mean you will see only one Imam but the Dai will have to verify incase you end up seeing an imposter?

Imam Ali (do you believe in him?) told Haris e Hamdan that whoever dies will see me. من يمت يرني .

Who is going to verify that it is Imam Ali? The Dai?

[progticide]

So, we will "see" the Imam, and the Dai will verify.

Does that mean that you will see more than one Imam and the Dai will have to verify the correct Imam? Or does this mean you will see only one Imam but the Dai will have to verify incase you end up seeing an imposter?

Imam Ali (do you believe in him?) told Haris e Hamdan that whoever dies will see me. من يمت يرني .

Who is going to verify that it is Imam Ali? The Dai?

Moron Anajmi,
Why are you asking these questions? These are issues concerning DB Faith which you have nothing to do with. Stop wasting our time and go ask your Ahle zikr.

Or wait a minute, is it that your Ahle Zikr does not have answers to these and therefore you are now trying to find your way back into DBs.

Yes, that's true. You're done with your AhleZikr and therefore you are asking these questions to DBs.

[anajmi]

That is correct. My Ahle Zikr does not have answers to these questions. Now, please can I get some answers from your Ahle Zikr who are really smart?

So, we will "see" the Imam, and the Dai will verify.

Does that mean that you will see more than one Imam and the Dai will have to verify the correct Imam? Or does this mean you will see only one Imam but the Dai will have to verify incase you end up seeing an imposter?

Imam Ali (do you believe in him?) told Haris e Hamdan that whoever dies will see me. من يمت يرني .

Who is going to verify that it is Imam Ali? The Dai?

[abde53]

anjami bhai
i know you have problems accepting our shafiq bawa TUS as leader, but can I request you that you please do not use abusive language for our leader. yes this progree forum and yes you can express freely but being a learned person you are do you think it is good idea to disrespect a person who is admired by a thousands if not millions. i am no scholar in islam but does not allah says to respect people of other faiths and to disrespect them. allah is the judge of our deeds

[Adam]

Summarizing this thread:
How will you verify the Imam?
Dawoodi Bohras = Dai will verify the Imam.
Proggies = Don't know (quoting stranger)

[anajmi]

Summarizing the response one more time.

And why do you think that it is "stranger" that represents the progressive view point when he has clearly identified himself as a confused abde?
Confusion, confusion??

Abde Idiot Dawoodi Bohras = Actually, you also don't know the answers and I doubt if anyone really do (quoting stranger).
stranger = and yea, I dont know your definition of progressive but believe me I am very much a common orthodox bohra and I dont care much about accountability (quoting stranger)

Quoting Progressives.
DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Hanif]

HANIF

how will you recognise the Imam in the heareafter? How is the Dai going to help you. Please don't give me silly answer like the Dai will identify him. How? You will be up. Is the Dai going to go up with you identify the Imam and come back and go back with another dead.

Adam writes: Imam Ali (do you believe in him?) told Haris e Hamdan that whoever dies will see me. من يمت يرني .

Hanif responds:
Yes, I do believe in Imam Ali AS. OK if Imam Ali SA said we will see him, then we will see him. So why are you asking us how will you verify your Imam and that Dai will verify Imam for the Abdes. Who then needs the Dai to verify the Imam? If we will all see Imam Ali AS why do we need to see the Imam in Satr. You mean to say that Imam Ali AS will be there together with the other 21 plus more! and plus the Dai. What about the DBs who passed away before the present Dai came about?

Adam writes: This is applicable in accordance to DB faith to every Imam. In Satr, the Dai represents the Imam.

So, we will "see" the Imam, and the Dai will verify.

Hanif writes:
You have still not clarified - what if you die suddenly and you have gone in haven, and the Imam in Satr is on earth, how is Dai going to verify the Imam for you. Do you really know what you are talking about?

Adam:
That's our stand. Whether you accept it or not.

Hanif:Good luck with your stand!

Adam: But what's yours? Either you don't have one, or are confused to explain it.

Hanif: Don't worry about me. I do not need the Dai to verify the Imam. Believe me I am not gropping in the Dark like you guys.


Hanif:
Now prove to me how Dai is infallible

Adam:
I've already told you.

Hanif:You have told me nothing. All you told me was about Abu Abdullah Shiih who verified Imam Mahdi after Satr but was executed by his Imam.Obviously he was not infallible.
Adam:
Read Syedna Hatims and Syedi Lukmanjee bin Habibullah books on this subject.

Hanif:Can you quote from the book?



Hanif:Prove to me your Dai is from the Line of Imam Jaffar Sadiq because I proved you wrong.
Adam:
I already told you, whethe ANY Dai Muthlaq is or isn't from the line of any Imam doesn't affect the infallibility.

Hanif: Now you are changing the subject. You told us that the Dai is from Imam Jafar Sadiq and I proved you wrong. Here you are changing from "Dai" to Dai Al-Muthlaq "is or isn't from the line of any Imam doesn't affect the infallibility". Please go consult a scholar from outside DB or Shia of any denomination who will tell you only TRUE IMAMS are infallibles and no DAIs or Dai al-Mutlaks are infallible. You have just insulted the Pajatan Pak and their progeny! Next time you go to your sabak please use your intelligence and tell the amil to stop his fairy tales. For once use your God given AQL.

No wonder you guys are soooooooooooooo confused.

[porus]

Hanif,

My personal view is that only Panjatan were infallibles. This is my interpretation of ayat of tatheer (33:33) and the hadith of ahl al-kisa. Naturally, all Shia will disagree. However, I am open to changing my view on infallibility of Imams after Imam Husain if it can be verified from the Quran. I am also open to Quran being supplemented by a hadith acceptable as authentic by both the Shia and the Sunni.

In kitab wazkur fil kitab Ismail (hindi version available for download on this website), Bohra belief that Imams are born Imams is stated, not explained with reference to Quran. It is not clear that incumbent Imam actually knows that a new Imam has been born. It would appear that he sometimes knows and sometimes he has to wait for a sign from God.

According the book, Imam Jafar al-Sadiq pronounced nass on Imam Ismail. Imam Ismail in turn pronounced nass on his son Imam Muhammad even though Imam Ismail was not yet an Imam. (This is indeed curious!) In the event, Imam Ismail pre-deceased Imam al-Sadiq. Because of the belief that Imams are infallible, and born infallible, these nusus (appointments) are valid according to Bohra beliefs. In that case, we simultaneously had 3 Imams on earth at the same time, Imam al-Sadiq, Imam Ismail and Imam Muhammad!

Let us assume that 'infallibility ' is by God's grace. Therefore, only an Imam can identify an infallible successor. However, since infallibility is now extended by Bohras to their Dais, then all Dais must also be born infallible. That is, just as Imams are born as Imams, Dais are also born as Dais.

It is clear then that only an infallible can appoint an infallible. So, how do we account for Hurrat al-Malika appointing first Dai al-Mutlaq? She could not have done that unless she was infallible too. So, she must have born infallible as well.

Now, it be comes clear why abdes are insisting that only their Dai can verify/identify an Imam. That is because all infallibles are equal and necessarily so. So, just like Quran does not differentiate among anbiya, Bohra belief is that there is no difference among Dai, Imam and Prophet with regard to rank or knowledge. They are all equally infallible, equally knowledgeable and have the same station on earth and in heaven. And anyone of them can verify any other. So, whoever is around can verify another infallible. Dai can verify Prophet or Imam or another Dai; and equally, Prophet can verify Dai, Imam or another Prophet and so on.

It is clear then that Muffadal Maula was born infallible. This has only just been revealed to us. Similarly let us hope that we will soon be privy to infallible son and infallible grandson of Mufaddal Maula being the 54th and 55th Dais. Let us pray we will not have to wait that long.

Let us also pray that Imam does come out of parda and spoil all this fun-filled suspense.

p.s If an Imam can be in satr, can a Prophet and Dai be satr too. Well, if they are all equal......

[anajmi]

18:110
Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward [with hope and awe] to meeting his Sustainer [on Judgment Day], let him do righteous deeds, and let him not ascribe unto anyone or anything a share in the worship due to his Sustainer!"

5:6
O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your [wet] hands lightly over your head, and [wash] your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total ablution, purify yourselves. But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings (or to complete his favor upon you), so that you might have cause to be grateful.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاةِ فاغْسِلُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُواْ بِرُؤُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَينِ وَإِن كُنتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاء أَحَدٌ مَّنكُم مِّنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لاَمَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُم مِّنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَـكِن يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهَّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

33:33 And abide quietly in your homes, and do not flaunt your charms as they used to flaunt them in the old days of pagan ignorance; [36] and be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto God and His Apostle: for God only wants to remove from you all that might be loathsome, O you members of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you to utmost purity.
وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَى وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

As can be seen from above examples, the prophet (saw) clearly identifies himself as no more a man than the rest of whom he is addressing. The Dai will never make that claim. Infact if you read Daimul Islam, you will find the Imams making exorbitant claims about themselves.

Second, every time you do wudhu Allah purifies you. That means we all become infallible every time we do wudhu, if purification of 33:33 means infallible. Full measure of his blessing (or his complete favor) is the same as utmost purity.

Third, ayah 33:33 is addressing the wives of the prophet (saw).

Fourth, no one has been able to explain as yet what is the meaning of infallible. What qualities does an infallible person display. Are they unique such that no other person is capable of displaying such qualities?

[porus]

anajmi,

The difference between 5:6 and 33:3 is that in wudu, you 'purify' yourself but Ahlul Bayt have been 'purified' by Allah himself.

I have attempted the meaning of 'infallible' several times on this forum. Removing rijs, I take it mean removing all traces of unbelief. I have explained this with reference to another ayat of the Quran. This in turn means that they are the only ones who can be relied upon to interpret the Quran without error and their guidance can be trusted absolutely.

[anajmi]

porus,

5:6
O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your [wet] hands lightly over your head, and [wash] your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total ablution, purify yourselves. But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings (or to complete his favor upon you), so that you might have cause to be grateful.

If this translation/interpretation of the ayah is correct, then over here as well, it is Allah that wants to make you pure. So when you perform wudhu, it is Allah that makes you pure.

This in turn means that they are the only ones who can be relied upon to interpret the Quran without error and their guidance can be trusted absolutely.

No question about that. A majority of muslims believe this without interpreting 33:33 as infallibility of the prophet (saw) and the family of Ali(ra). The Quran says that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to all mankind and that he does nothing which hasn't been commanded by Allah. So, yes the guidance of the prophet (saw) can be trusted absolutely.

[porus]

anajmi,

You do have a point. I must say I had missed 5:6. Both 5:6 and 33:33 use essentially the same word 'purify' with subject being Allah.

Thus it appears that all who perform wudu will be 'purified' in accordance with 5:6. That is, they will be 'purified' for namaaz until there is time for wudu again, I think. However, they do not become infallible.

However, 33:33 not only 'purifies' ahlul bayt, but it also removes all traces of rijs=unbelief from them. It is the latter that makes them infallible. I do not think that 33:33 removes from them the obligation to perform wudu in accordance with 5:6.

In conclusion, 5:6 applies to all who perform wudu. 33:33 applies only to ahlul bayt.

[progticide]

The problem with ordinary people is that everyone wants to know answers to every question that crops up in their mind. How, what, which, when etc?.

There is no problem with these questions per se? Afterall, every human mind has been provided the faculty to think, albeit with different capacities. Nevertheless, it is not unnatural or irrational behaviour to think and generate questions about things around us, including religion.

However, the problem starts when some people start demanding answers to every question as their fundamental right. This may still not be an unjust demand in a democratic society where the fabric of the society is created by the members thereby giving them equal rights and responsiblities in societal affairs. But, the same problem takes greater dimension when people start applying the same logic in matters of religion. It is because, unlike a society, a religious community is not created by participating members, but there is a progenitor of the community who lays down certain rules and procedures of conduct encompasing whatever he/she wishes to include in its realm including knowledge dispensation, roles, hierarchy, responsibilities, etc etc.

When members are invited to join a religious community, they are called toward following a predetermined course/ journey with a laid down code of conduct expected for them to abide to. Conflicts begin when these members start demanding changes/reforms inside a community in line with the outside world, forgetting that the outside society is a result of their actions whereas the religious order is the result of someone else's actions.

Similarly, when it comes to knowledge dispensation, since the ordinary people are part of the process of knowledge creation in the outside society in general (though again not every person has the right to every such knowledge as we know based on their roles and position in the society like say only scientist would know some of the secrets medical formulae, defense engineers would know secrets of nuclear weapons, aircrafts, operations of ordinance, higher officials of a company would know the secrets of their product IPRs etc) they have a right to demand answers to questions that they may have as a matter of their fundamental rights in society, though the same is not true for these same people as part of a religious order. The reason is that when it comes to religious or spiritual knowledge, ordinary people have no role in the creation of this knowledge, which is created by someone else, they are merely part of the recipient class and not the contributor or creator class as in the outside world. This is a big difference, which those who understand accept the code of the religious order with humility and discipline, whereas those who do not accept this, try to enforce their reforms and logic and systems belonging to the outside world into the religious order only to disrupt the equilibrium of the community. They fail to understand that merely being part of or born in the community or religious order does not grant them the right to change the rules or procedures or customs of that community since they were not the ones who created them or participated in its creation.

Besides, it is also important to understand that not every mind possesses the same capacity and ability to think, store, secure, process, dispense & retrieve the information that is offered to it. Therefore, it becomes even more important that knowledge dispensation in a religious order be carried out with utmost precision and discretion, lest it becomes a greater problem rather than a solution to an untrained mind and to others in the society outside.

This above thought would be accepted and rejected in the same manner as the rules governing the conduct of members of a community.

The problem is not to persist with demands in the outside world and inside a community; the problem is failing to understand the difference in the right to demand in the outside world and inside a community.

[humble_servant_us]

anajmi

Fourth, no one has been able to explain as yet what is the meaning of infallible. What qualities does an infallible person display. Are they unique such that no other person is capable of displaying such qualities?

Trying to put thoughts on infallibility.

<<What qualities does an infallible person display.>>
A infallible person would not do anything against the will of Allah(swt). He has in totality submitted to Allah(Swt).

<<Is infallibilty possible.>>
Yes. Infallibilty is based on knowledge. Submitting to Allah(swt) is to obey what ever he has commanded to do and avoid all that he has prohibited.

For eg. There are 2 glasses of water, one is pure and other is contaminated with germs. You have the knowledge about this. Would you drink the contaminated water. Common sense dictates based on the knowledge I will never drink the contaminated water because i understand the evil effects of it. Likewise people who have knowledge about purity of following the commands of Allah(Swt) and the evil effects of disobeying HIM(swt) will never go towards its which is protecting his self from disobedience which is a Sin.

All the messengers of Allah(swt) have to be infallible because they were entrusted the responsibility of bringing commandments from Allah to the people. They have been given the knowledge. If we have to doubt about their infallibility than the institution of deliverance of message and the message itself is questionable and then all this discussion have no value.

I think you may not have a problem upto this stage. Your doubts or question arise when shias extend the infallibilty to the Imams of ahlulbait(as). This can only be answered if we fall back to the event of ghadeer and necessity of a khalifa/imam after the prophet(pbuh).

[humanbeing]

• Is demanding accountability of funds and transparency in running of the community, a religious question forbidden to be asked ?
• Is demanding justice for embezzlement of funds by appointees, entrusted with care and administration of the community a religious question forbidden to be asked ?
• Why is the very foundation of bohra islam which is about Imamate, is in confusion and unknown for centuries to commoners, who have pledged their faith and belief as advocated by the leaders-in-presence ?
• Why many religious, secular, financial and administrative functioning of the community practiced as clandestine activities in guise of Taqiyet ?
• Why is there a need for Taqiyet ?
• Which questions are unfairly demanded as per outside world or inside of community ?
• Can not a person ask questions which forms the foundation of his / her existence, belief, faith and affiliation? which he / she is struggling in the mind and conscience ?
• Why only those questions are answered which suits to the taste and convenience of the priestly class ? •

Why does leaders who set the rules, break themselves, such as :
Respect Law of the Land, while their own appointed agents break them (black money, hawala, evasion of tax)
Claim tolerance and respect for other sects and religions to outside world, but ridicule them in private audience.

[fearAllah]

The problem with ordinary people is that everyone wants to know answers to every question that crops up in their mind. How, what, which, when etc?.

There is no problem with these questions per se? Afterall, every human mind has been provided the faculty to think, albeit with different capacities. Nevertheless, it is not unnatural or irrational behaviour to think and generate questions about things around us, including religion.

However, the problem starts when some people start demanding answers to every question as their fundamental right. This may still not be an unjust demand in a democratic society where the fabric of the society is created by the members thereby giving them equal rights and responsiblities in societal affairs. But, the same problem takes greater dimension when people start applying the same logic in matters of religion. It is because, unlike a society, a religious community is not created by participating members, but there is a progenitor of the community who lays down certain rules and procedures of conduct encompasing whatever he/she wishes to include in its realm including knowledge dispensation, roles, hierarchy, responsibilities, etc etc.

When members are invited to join a religious community, they are called toward following a predetermined course/ journey with a laid down code of conduct expected for them to abide to. Conflicts begin when these members start demanding changes/reforms inside a community in line with the outside world, forgetting that the outside society is a result of their actions whereas the religious order is the result of someone else's actions.

Similarly, when it comes to knowledge dispensation, since the ordinary people are part of the process of knowledge creation in the outside society in general (though again not every person has the right to every such knowledge as we know based on their roles and position in the society like say only scientist would know some of the secrets medical formulae, defense engineers would know secrets of nuclear weapons, aircrafts, operations of ordinance, higher officials of a company would know the secrets of their product IPRs etc) they have a right to demand answers to questions that they may have as a matter of their fundamental rights in society, though the same is not true for these same people as part of a religious order. The reason is that when it comes to religious or spiritual knowledge, ordinary people have no role in the creation of this knowledge, which is created by someone else, they are merely part of the recipient class and not the contributor or creator class as in the outside world. This is a big difference, which those who understand accept the code of the religious order with humility and discipline, whereas those who do not accept this, try to enforce their reforms and logic and systems belonging to the outside world into the religious order only to disrupt the equilibrium of the community. They fail to understand that merely being part of or born in the community or religious order does not grant them the right to change the rules or procedures or customs of that community since they were not the ones who created them or participated in its creation.

Besides, it is also important to understand that not every mind possesses the same capacity and ability to think, store, secure, process, dispense & retrieve the information that is offered to it. Therefore, it becomes even more important that knowledge dispensation in a religious order be carried out with utmost precision and discretion, lest it becomes a greater problem rather than a solution to an untrained mind and to others in the society outside.

This above thought would be accepted and rejected in the same manner as the rules governing the conduct of members of a community.

The problem is not to persist with demands in the outside world and inside a community; the problem is failing to understand the difference in the right to demand in the outside world and inside a community.

Idiotic comments ignored!
Back to the main topic please

Summarizing this thread:

How will you verify the Imam?
Burhani Bohras = Dai is the Imam.......(Confused, confused....!)

Dawoodi Bohras = Imam will punish/execute the Dai

[progticide]

In the absence of any rational argument or defense in an open debate, people often resort to such childish behaviour like the one exhibited by FearAllah above.

DBs please ignore him and move forward.

[fearAllah]

In the absence of any rational argument or defense in an open debate, people often resort to such childish behaviour like the one exhibited by FearAllah above.

DBs please ignore him and move forward.

Professor Prostitute,

Was just giving you a taste of your own medicine!