Pray for the muslims in Iraq

[anajmi]

Anajmi:

I'm a Harvard educated surgeon. Who are you, moron?

That is perfect. Now I can tell people that even Harvard can produce morons. The next time I need surgery I am going to make sure the guy is not Harvard educated.

[anajmi]

Al-Muizz,

Since you are a Harvard educated surgeon, I have a question for you. If I were to feed some bull-shit, where would I need to insert the feeding tube?

[anajmi]

Average Bohra

while the muslims should start with introducing the word "diplomacy" in their vocabulary

The muslims have the word "diplomacy" in their vocabulary. Didn't you see our great leader from America kissing our great leader from Saudi?

[Average Bohra]

Yes, I did which simply proves that even Bush knows diplomacy, and a brilliant move I might add.

[Average Bohra]

Now if the Saudi leader showed up sporting some Wranglers, Lucchese boots, a Stetson and a belt buckle with the Saudi insignia on it, that would be some bad ass diplomacy !

Personally, I would have topped that off with a hand written Bible from Madrasa students in Saudi Arabia who were victims of terrorism and gifted that to Mrs. Laura Bush. Now we are talking some major Brownie Points, Halal ofcourse……!

Diplomacy at its best…….

[Amicus Mellitus]

Al-Muizz:
I'm a Harvard educated surgeon

I am sure most of us are educated professionals here but let us accept that Internet is really wonderful:

I happen to be the only Nobel Laureate who also won a Pulitzer Prize for fiction. Now any objections?

[kalim]

Dear AB: It is true that the Jewish people have political alignment with all significant groups. I also know that most Jews vote Democratic. If you read my previous mail I said that it was the evangelicals who are really driving the administration to adopt pro-Israel policies. It is clear to almost everyone that the Christian right sees itself as being instrumental in Bush's reelection. It is the evangelical and other conservative Christians who have influence on the administration and not the Hispanics, Blacks etc. So the Jewish alignment with them is not relevant here. It is indeed ironic that senators from states with very small Jewish population are most vocally pro-Israel. One reason is that these senators are influenced by conservative Christians on supporting the Jewish state at the expense of Palestine. Muslims can't get into an analogous position as they do not enjoy the support of those who can influence decision makers.

Anyway, I did not mean this is as a criticism of Jewish politics. I simply indicated that Christians in America are deeply sympathetic of Jews due to their religious beliefs and hence it is natural for them to pressurize the government to support Israel. I apologize if you felt upset at my calling your views naive. I hope you forgive me.

[anajmi]

Better still, a fake turkey to the morons dying in Iraq or a green "red blue and white" to the morons over here!!

[Average Bohra]

Kalim,

I appreciate the clarification, but no offense was taken. Naive may be the best thing I have been called as of late here on this board.

I still disagree with you on the so-called evangelical / Christian influence. Kerry lost because he was on both sides of every issue. Not unlike the intelligentsia I have shared my opinions with on this thread. What I want you to understand is that the Jewish and pro-Israeli stance is not unique to evangelicals, but rampant in US politics. The influence is greater than you give it credit for.

[Average Bohra]

Anajmi,

Most of the morons dying in Iraq are Muslims who happen to be innocent civilians and victims of Muslim on Muslim terrorism. Inspite of your obvious tumultuous, traumatic and dysfunctional upbringing, your gloating at the deaths of innocent civilians in Iraq (lately a bus full of school children) is nauseating.

[porus]

AB,

I suggest you offer yourself to participate on national tv, say CNN or CBS and offer criticism of Israel. And count the number of seconds before you are shut up.

In fact, one person did just that on a 3 pm Eastern town hall like CNN programme. The co-ordinator politely told him that there would be time to discuss that issue in a future programme. That, despite its relevance to the issue.

Telling us about composition of Congress does not mean anything. Zionist influence operates by stealth. Christian Right/Zionist alliance is important only in so far as Bush is being manipulated by it. But, like you say, Israeli influence is just as strong over Christian Right as it is over both overt and covert political process in the USA and extends far beyond the influence of Evangelicals.

Please do not reject ideas because they are "conspiracy theories". See if they make sense even if you need to take them with a large dose of salt.

Try this for starters:

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/zionismdata.htm

[Average Bohra]

Porus,

I appreciate the link, but I generally stay away from posting links to books and articles that support my point of view. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.

My disagreement with you is in that the "Zionist influence" on US politics is not a covert secret or a conspiracy known only to you, but an accepted, public and useful means of exerting one's influence in a democracy. Every other group, minority or otherwise, has the same right. Your assertion that those accepting such influence are brainwashed and don’t know any better is rudimentary.

[porus]

AB,

Your argument is like this:

I am a bully and you better watch out. But hey, you have equal right to be a bully too. Just try it!

[anajmi]

Average Moron,

I was talking about the "morons" that are dying in Iraq. But since you are a moron, I didn't expect you to make the connection!!

The Iraqi civilians are martyrs and they are, inshaallah, at a better place than the American occupied Iraq.

And please don't pretend to care for the innocent children that are dead because of morons like you who supported this illegal war.

[anajmi]

And as far as upbringing is concerned, no one ever taught me to lie or support liars or be a moron. I can go pretty low but that is one place I can't reach you.

[anajmi]

As far as posting links and articles is concerned, again, you are a liar. Second, you don't because the couple of times you did, you were exposed to be a big fat liar!!

[tahir]

AL Muizz,

the rest of us actually make a difference in this owrld

Making a difference in this world is the last thing a confirmist would ever do. People of your ilk are such a perfect symbiotic fit in the prevailing order that they would work overtime to keep it intact eternally. Its because of components like you that civilizations decay and ultimately vanish (unless some fresh blood is pumped in).

[Humsafar]

Al-Muizz,

Your Harvard education truly and genuinely impresses me but I’m sorry to say that real education has passed you by. This, not despite your Harvard credentials but rather because of it.

Let me explain. Schools everywhere (West or East) are little more than centres of indoctrination. Their function is to produce disciplined, obedient workers and consumers (never citizens). The educational system socialises us into accepting the existing unjust social and economic order as something natural, and even god-given. Of course, all this is tacit and unwritten. The process of indoctrination is highly subtle and institutionalized and we are oblivious to its inner workings or its ultimate goal. We are trained to obey rules and laws, and from an early age taught the consequence of breaking them or of questioning authority. We finish schools and universities armed with an education that has variously equipped us to become part of the existing system, bent upon individual careers, making a “success” of our lives etc. You know the routine. Rarely do you find an individual who emerges from a university and says, “Damn, this world is a bloody mess, let me do something to set things right!” If graduates started doing that that would be considered a failure of the educational system.

In all this the role of the premier educational centres like Harvard is even more crucial. No doubt brilliant minds go there – but only to be trained as managers, administrators, lawyers, CEOs, scientists, politicians etc. In short, the leaders of tomorrow who will help maintain the status quo – who with their education, power, influence and wealth will reinforce the doctrinal system: a system that that is rooted in private property, pursuit of profit, endless economic growth, social and economic inequities, primacy of the market (as a pretext for the rich and powerful to practically do whatever they want) rule of law (which is permanently rigged in favour of the elite) and public investment and private profit – all of which understood as “laws of nature”.

To give you an analogy – though analogies are never perfect – compare an “educated” person to a processed food. The more processed and refined the food is the more it loses its original taste, nutrients, fibre and less value it has as a food even though artificial flavour, colour and preservatives are added to it make it look attractive and desirable. Similarly, the more you go through formal education, the more “processed” you become. After all how many PhD or MBA programmes are there which actually train you to subvert the system.

Of course, this not to condemn all “educated” people. There are always exceptions – quite a few on this board - who go through the educational system (even to its fullest extent) and yet escape the indoctrination process, who have not lost their ability to think critically and rationally, to question authority and speak the truth to power. Those are the people with real education. And you Al-Muizz, I’m sorry to say, are not one of them.

Again, I’ll not respond to your ranting against me because it belies the supposed Harvard refinement and shows you up as its crude and vulgar product who nonetheless parrots the language of the masters: “backwards”, “losers”, “the rest of us” “cycle of laziness and ineptitude” “successful country” etc. I guess they forgot to add colour and flavour when they packaged you.

[Humsafar]

Muslims too are driven by scriptural thinking. Those who keep harping that terrorism is not "Islamic" conveniently forget that the terrorists use the same Qur'an and hadith to justify their violent actions.

Kalim,

Your point is well taken. I agree that there is “Islamic” underpinning to terrorism – who can deny it when terrorists themselves say so. But the point I was trying to make – and perhaps failed – is that Islam by and of itself is not the first cause, the original instigator of this terrorism – which the western propaganda seems to imply. This terrorism is a response, a reaction to American atrocities, and happens to be Islamic. That Islam supports violent action, jihad etc. is incidental and is readily exploited by terrorists. The bottom line is, without the American presence and influence in the region there would be no terrorism – Islamic or otherwise.

You are right, only secular humanistic ethics will save this world. Religion generally is bad news.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

I just think he is a moron!!

[kalim]

Dear Humsafar: Yes, I agree that Islam is not the primary instigator of the terrorism. I was not trying to imply that it was so. However, one does not need Western propaganda to see that the Qur'an and hadiths can be read in ways which justify terrorism. Further, to conclude that if it was not for the Americans presence and influence there would be no terrorism is hasty. To do so we need to look into history to see how Muslims have fared during those times when they were not being exploited by others. Only then we can rationally concluded what the situation of the Muslims would be otherwise.

I submit that one cause (among many) of the great progress in Western civilization was the Enlightenment. A similar "Muslim Enlightenment" has not yet occurred. So it has never occurred to Muslims to question their scriptures or use their reason to question religious authority. They take it for granted that they, and only they, are repositories of "Absolute and Complete Truth". All the tremendous progress in science and other intellectual fields thus passed them by and now most of them have been reduced to consumers of technology. I submit that the root of Muslim terrorism is not modern imperialist policies of America or Britain (although such policies are the immediate cause) but the failure of the Muslims to progress with the rest of humanity. Anyway, these issues are complex and exchange of views can only mean ones understanding of them becomes better.

It is sad to see that people like Al-Muizz presume that their supposed "education" will bully others in silence. Many people on this board are equally well educated. However, as you rightly pointed out, they have broken free of the indoctrination and learnt to use their own understanding, a true Enlightenment ideal. I hope Al-Muizz, and others like him, wake up from their self incurred tutelage and have the courage to use their own reason and understanding.

[Muslim]

"Al-Muizz",

Formal education does not necessarily make you intellectually superior or open-minded. <B>You</B> are living proof of that.

[Humsafar]

Dear Kalim,
We both seem to agree – only that you are looking at the broad historical canvas, and I at the current context when I say that without the American presence there would be no Islamic terrorism. However, Islam and Muslims are no stranger to using violence. If fact it could be argued that the furious and rapid spread of Islam in the early decades and centuries could not have possible without violence. Historically Muslims have been as much guilty of imperialism as America is today. And no imperialist project can be accomplished without violence and oppression.

If Islam had gone through the Enlightenment experience, it is possible that the Islamic world would be less vulnerable to Western exploitation. And its response to America may have been different. Who knows. But let’s not forget that today the West (US/UK in particular), as Porus pointed out earlier, represents the betrayal of Enlightenment ideals what with its imperial wars, market fundamentalism, consumerist culture, social atrophy, urban decay, environmental destruction etc. etc.

But the tragedy is that Muslims are suffering the failure of western imagination without the benefit of having experienced Enlightenment. Complex issues, and this exchange is really fruitful.

[anajmi]

Husafar,

However, Islam and Muslims are no stranger to using violence. If fact it could be argued that the furious and rapid spread of Islam in the early decades and centuries could not have possible without violence.

Based upon what? Do you know how many people died during the 23 years of the prophet's life when Islam was being revealed? Do you know why they died? Was it because they were being forced to become Muslims?

Do you know how many people died during the times of the khalifas? When was the last time a muslim nation started a war of conquest to spread Islam like America wants to spread democracy?

"Islam was spread by the sword" is just as much fiction as Harry Potter!!

[Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

Are you saying that imperial wars, market fundamentalism, consumerist culture, social atrophy, urban decay, environmental destruction is unique to the West (US/UK in particular) ?

[Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

I am amazed to read your opinion of the educational system. Your expectations are far beyond the scope of such an institution and rightly so. We are trained to obey rules and laws, and from an early age taught the consequence of breaking them or of questioning authority. Do you not want your child to learn the importance of obeying laws and the consequence of breaking them ? If not, you would trust a teacher with his or her inherent biases to teach your child that ? I seriously doubt that. It would be irresponsible for a parent to relegate that responsibility to a teacher. To be able to think outside the box, one has to know what's in it. To know what law to protest, one must first know what the law is and the consequences of breaking it. That's what a good educational system is designed to do; not dole out a PhD in Visionary Arts or a Certified Dreamer certification !

only to be trained as managers, administrators, lawyers, CEOs, scientists, politicians Only ? Are you somehow above needing the services of these individuals ?

What you expect the educational system to provide comes for real life experiences, and upbringing. My criticism of the educational system is that it does not do a good enough job of teaching what you claim it does effectively.

The realists are not content sitting on a pedestal drinking tea , scoffing at pragmatism, and dictating how the world is all wrong and pretending to have all the answers to the worlds problems. If you claim to as you do, then you must prove that you have the credibility and the actions to back up your rhetoric. That you have actually done something to change the world; else it would make you a dreamer.

[anajmi]

I don't think that there is something wrong with the entire world. It's just the US and UK because they are a country of morons led by blood sucking parasites living off of the blood and resources of innocent people elsewhere in the world.

[Humsafar]

anajmi,

You don't have to take it personally - you did not start Islam nor did you participate in its spread which at times was allegedly violent. You don't have to feel personally responsible about the unsavoury aspects of Islam. I understand that as a strong believer - like any other believer of any other religion - you are in denial. Besides it is never a good idea to look at history from the standpoint of a belief system - you are bound to get a distorted view. For nothing in human history - and especially so in religion - is pure, pristine, uncomplicated and unblemished. The history of Islam is no exception.

Look at it this way. So what if Islam supports violence under certain conditions or its followers used/use violence in its name? This does not in any way mitigates the essential goodness of Islam, its core values of justice, benevolence, peace and human brotherhood. Concentrate on the positive aspects but at the same time also accept the negative - for that is the essential duality of all things. Positive cannot exist without negative. Good without evil, black without white etc. This acceptance would constitute a true understanding of one's faith and help strengthen and deepen it further. The problem starts when you believe that there are no problems with one's religion, that, as Kalim mentioned, it is perfect and absolute. Nothing is.

[Muslim First]

.

Very good-Humsafar

Last 2 Fridays, I have spoken to Imaam at mosque I attend. I have asked him to say something about killing of innocent. First friday he ignored it. Second friday he danced around it.

Many of us are in denial.

May Allah help us all.

Wasalaam
.

[Humsafar]

AB,

The problem is that you read in my comments what you want to read and not what I’m trying to say. Like anajmi does with Islam, you take it as a personal affront if anything negative is said about the West (particularly the US) or what it represents. We’ll have far less difficulty in understanding each other if we took emotion out of facts.

As for your question whether all those ills are unique to the West, no they are not. Those ills are specific to a system. They are the result of the path of economic and social development the West has taken and the rest of the world has willy nilly followed.

With regard to my comments about the educational system, I’m not amazed that you’re amazed – because it questions your deeply held belief that “this system works”. Ergo, any criticism of it must come from dreamers, failed utopians, non-realists etc. That there can be alternatives, different possibilities, different perspectives is never allowed by a mindset that has learned its lessons well from the educational system: this is the way things are, this is the best we can have, they are good for us and they are good for the rest of the world. Do not rock the boat. Be a realist. Follow the rules. Work hard. Etc. Etc.

In short, your defence of the educational system is my best argument against it.