Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

[Human]

aqs and Smart,
Sorry to jump in the discussion, but I'd like to give my own example regarding this.
I found this website and then became a regular visitor because it gave me freedom of speech. I had grudges against all the changes being forced in our community and things with no sense or logic being made the word of law or should i say word of god. I asked questions, but no one answered and often I was considered to be an alien or an outsider. I came on this forum and I found so many people who have problems with our community. Problems that were similar to mine and problems that are more deep than mine.
Before I came to this forum, I was not aware of many things about Islam as from childhood we were given the impression that we are the higher 'class' of people whereas muslims (sunnis) are low class. Somehow, when I grew up, I refused to agree to this. I had very good sunni friends and they all were perfectly good people.
So far I've learned a lot on this forum about quran that I didn't know before. Yes I've read quran many times in arabic, but did that make any sense? NO, a bit fat NO. Getting into long debates with anajmi has also inspired me to read the quran in a language other than arabic, which I'm now doing and I wouldn't have done it if I never came on this website. I also found the other side of the coin stories which were never known to me before as I only knew what came through as gossip in the local community. I never knew before that Asghar Ali Engineer was such a learned scholar as all I knew before was what was told to me by the royals that he is a 'dushman' that he did a 'humla' in moula, no details whatsoever. There are many other incidents.
I can really admit that coming to this website has provided me a lot of knowledge about bohra history as well regardless of orthodox or progressives.

[Al Zulfiqar]

I am not here to discuss deen or intricacies of it in any way.

then what are you here for??? to spread your insidious brand of disinformation, lies, doubt, and confusion?

the subject title of this thread is " Abdes - any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?"

admit that abdes do not have any websites that impart any real knowledge. period. no, instead of admitting that, what do you do? you try to sell yr snake oil, and keep repeating join sabaks, we have the secret knowledge of ahle bait, dont read anything available freely, its all doctored, blah blah and blah.. crap!

you also mention that you are here to have 'sensible' discussions. so far whatever you have posted is such unadulterated garbage that even a donkey on reading your bilge would get brain fever..!! as i have told you, i have attended these brainwashing sessions and realised very early on what is the eventual goal of their sinister agenda. if you cant see it, then it raises serious doubts about yr mental state. but then people like you are exactly the type of brain-dead recruits that the dawat wants to take in for 'programming'.

this forum is not as fertile a hunting ground as you assumed. take yr sales pitch elsewhere. try the main islamic websites, your audience will be much wider there and you will get a red carpet welcome too.

[SBM]

To all
I know our discussion are getting a little bit deeper but I do hope we all keep our composure and stay out of personal attacks as well as name calling.
Some of the Abdes who used this forum to vent their learning by using abusive language have disappeared and I do give Aqs credit for being part of the discussion and I do hope more people from that side will participate in a civilized debate like Aqs and Guy Sam.We should reciprocate the same way
One thing atleast Aqs and Guy Sam did agree that there are problems with corruptiona and heavy handness by certain people but being LOYAL they are trying their best to defend them and are doing in a very civil manner.I do hope that atleast they would have courage to talk to their higher ups about some of things they agree with Progressives to correct

[Al Zulfiqar]

bhai oma,

agreed that aqs is keeping it civil. but what use is that civility when he is trying to skirt questions on the shirk being encouraged, nay institutionalised in our community by the dawat? not only avoiding answering them but defending the indefensible?

btw, where have i been abusive in my above post? i have called a spade a spade, aqs has kept contradicting his own statements time and again, and finally come up with a shocker to which everyone has objected, viz. that the real and original daim ul islam is only with dawat and so is the nahjula balagha. is this not something beyond reprehensible?

the evidence of the personality-cult hysteria and scramble to elevate syedna to the status of allah is being found everyday in the actions of our ordinary bohras. witness the thread on dahod and my comments re: similar incident in pune some 30 odd years ago, plus the madehs, ghanu jeevos, etc etc. its a daily assault on bohras and they are being deliberately led astray. i cannot have any sympathy or spare any quarter to someone who not only defends such shirk, but encourages it and promotes it on this forum. my hard hitting, to-the-point postings upset some people, but you cannot dispute the fact that i speak the truth.

[SBM]

Br. AZ
Salaam
I did not mean that message for anyone in particular, No you have not been abusive and that post was not meant for you, I do apologize if it implied in that manner I just wanted to make sure others do not engage in the same manner as was done by some of the Abdes who have now disappeared. Regardless of our differences of opinion, Aqs has at least acknowledge that Sajdaa to Syedna in not acceptable and they have also accepted that there is corruption and heavy handed treatment by Some Aamils.
I do believe that Aqs and Guy Sam do have some connections in Kothar and hopefully they are the conduits for the grievances by our Bohra community expressed on this forum. If we can engage more people from other side of the spectrum without calling names, Inshallah one day we will find the common ground to live in happier environment even though It is a difficult task. I have also noticed that some of the people on Matrimonial section clearly state that they have full aqeeda in Aqa Moula and they still put their ads here which is a good sign and it seems this website is having some effects on people.

[Al Zulfiqar]

thanks for yr reply bhai oma.

i agree with you. i have said this earlier (in response to a profound observation by humsafar in another thread) that in the name of reform we cannot antagonise the very community we wish to reform.

i am also repeating once again, i am sensible enough to understand that the blame for the acts of bohras going overboard in their praise and behaviour towards syedna, which is nothing but pure shirk, cannot be laid entirely at their door. 100% of the blame goes to those in the syedna's family who are orchestrating this shirk and his glorification with the sole purpose of making money and increasing their power and hold on the community.

individual bohras are basically good people, simple and kind at heart. but collectively they are being whipped and swept away in a mass hysteria and cultish behaviour. we have to seperate the crime from the criminals and analyse who is the real instigator. unfortunately most of the abdes who come to this site are so trying, that inspite of herculean efforts, we tend to lose our cool. "the spirit is strong,but the flesh is weak."

[porus]

.. Aqs has at least acknowledge that Sajdaa to Syedna in not acceptable...

I do not remember reading his acknowledgment. Instead he sought to defend sajda to Sayedna by saying that it is not sajda to Sayedna at all but sajda of thanks (sajadatus shukr) to Allah for giving them Sayedna. His stand was totally destroyed by publication of the madehs ‘sajda tujhe wajib hai’ and ‘burhanedin mawla-ni hub dil ma wasaavi lo’. But he has not admitted it.

An etiquette required when writing to Sayedna is to address him with the words 'ma'a sajadatul udubiyya' (with sajada of Ibaadat). Ibaadat sirf Allah ki ki jaati hai. Yeh shirk nahi to aur kya hai.

[SBM]

This was posted earlier today by Aqs in reply to AZ.

Sajadah to Syedna(tus)?? has already been refuted by me earlier, and again you allege the same.Just tell me if you are not able to find the same on this Forum i will dig it out for you

[porus]

This was posted earlier today by Aqs in reply to AZ.

Sajadah to Syedna(tus)?? has already been refuted by me earlier, and again you allege the same.Just tell me if you are not able to find the same on this Forum i will dig it out for you

His so-called 'refutation' is that that it is not sajda to Sayedna at all but sajda of thanks (sajadatus shukr) to Allah for giving them Sayedna.

Let him categorically state that the sentiments expressed in the madehs amount to shirk. Otherwise, his explanation is just a transparent attempt to wiggle out of a tight spot.

[Al Zulfiqar]

now watch aqs trying to wiggle out of explaining that the madeh, 'sajda tujhe wajib hai' is not shirk. it is from a kothari publication and clearly addressed and dedicated to syedna.

oma, i am sure aqs will be very civil when he lies through his teeth..

[aqs]

This was posted earlier today by Aqs in reply to AZ.

His so-called 'refutation' is that that it is not sajda to Sayedna at all but sajda of thanks (sajadatus shukr) to Allah for giving them Sayedna.

Let him categorically state that the sentiments expressed in the madehs amount to shirk. Otherwise, his explanation is just a transparent attempt to wiggle out of a tight spot.

@Porus,

I dont know if there is suppose to be some hidden meaning behind the wordings of this Madeh, But sajada is only for Allah and Allah alone.

[Smart]

@aqs

So you agree that this madeh is wrong. Good. now tell us why the Syedna has not spoken about it, or stopped his followers from reciting it and printing it?

Next, You can tell us how making shoes out of human skin fits in your concept of deen.

[aqs]

@aqs

So you agree that this madeh is wrong. Good. now tell us why the Syedna has not spoken about it, or stopped his followers from reciting it and printing it?

Next, You can tell us how making shoes out of human skin fits in your concept of deen.

No, what i agreed is that i dont know if their is suppose to be some hidden meaning behind the madeh, and as far as making shoes out of skin is concerned than no one is going to do it nor they will be asked to do so, its just a Poet's imagination.

and as far as distributing this madeh to other Muslim sects is concerned, please go ahead and do it. I will also like to hear how Kothar replies to the allegations.

[humble_servant_us]

rightly said by aks, madeh's are poet's imagination so they do not hold any value in court of law.

[Smart]

Fantastic justification. I must admire your faculty to delude yourself. No wonder Bohras don't cry while doing maatam and singing "Ya Sayyedus Shohodai". It is poetry, isn't it?

[bohri]

Bro aqs,

You said the Sultan lives like a Fatemid ruler (you avoided my question "how does he live like Ali" - so I assume you have no answer to that, or that he does not live like Ali).

It is true, that Fatemids also lived opulent lives, encouraging art and architecture of great beauty, much like the Sultan's re-builinding of mosques and mauseleums. It was also commom for non muslim rulers to have images of themseleves made - paintings in real or miniature forms as well as stone and broze sculptures. Amongst the treasure of historic relics, is there any suggestion of any of the Fatemid rulers having had images of themseleves commissioned?

Perhaps this would explain the current practice of plastering the Sultan's image wherever space allows, in Abde homes, cars, mosques, offices, key chains, maselas, etc.

[Truth Hurts]

Bro aqs,



Perhaps this would explain the current practice of plastering the Sultan's image wherever space allows, in Abde homes, cars, mosques, offices, key chains, maselas, etc.

It reminds me of recent mayavati murtis being erected everywhere in her town. I am sure Abdes would be greatly inspired by this and that day will not be far when we will see TUS's murtis everywhere in Mumbai and other metro cities.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Let him categorically state that the sentiments expressed in the madehs amount to shirk. Otherwise, his explanation is just a transparent attempt to wiggle out of a tight spot.

I dont know if there is suppose to be some hidden meaning behind the wordings of this Madeh, But sajada is only for Allah and Allah alone.

aqs, you are quite a master at dancing around prickly issues aren't you? you are perfect material for a politician.

where does the issue of "hidden meaning: in the madeh come from? there is no hidden meaning. period.

it is CLEARLY addressed to syedna, is reproduced from a dawat publication, OBVIOUSLY WITH RAZA, and the cover page (all links provided by porus) expressly states it is for that purpose.

now will you agree that syedna is promoting shirk or you have some more wiggling left to entertain us with?

[Smart]

^
Like the earlier batch of abdes, this recent batch of abdes has also disappeared. aqs was the last guy and he also seems to have disappeared, having painted himself in a corner and no space to wiggle.

Soon this forum will pass through another period of hibernation, till the next batch takes us on with all guns blazing.

[ghulam muhammed]

Like the earlier batch of abdes, this recent batch of abdes has also disappeared. aqs was the last guy and he also seems to have disappeared, having painted himself in a corner and no space to wiggle.

Soon this forum will pass through another period of hibernation, till the next batch takes us on with all guns blazing.

An urgent meeting must have been held by the zaadas to start sabaks wherein these abdes will be trained to counter the reformists on this forum.... special sabaks titled "PDBs" and till they reach haqiqat nu bayan we will spared of their bullshit which is quite a few years away.

[Smart]

Seriously,
Kothar should start a special course called "Countering PDBs" for abdes.

On second thoughts they shouldn't, because then they will have to teach logic and critical reasoning skills. Once these are taught, you never know how the students would start applying these tools. The fear is they may in turn become PDBs.

[ozmujaheed]

Believe me they are taking the latest PDB success as a serious threat and will allocate funds and manpower to counter and neutralize our efforts. Sabaks, services, use of brain dead intellectuals as role models, bribes in form of social events and jamans, some one important in my corporate life once told me the way to someone's heart is through the stomach .

While we wait for the next bunch of Abde pawns to send their salvos let us be alert and strengthen our unity, resolve, knowledge, collect facts, form external alliances and other forms of resistance methods.

[aqs]

Believe me they are taking the latest PDB success as a serious threat and will allocate funds and manpower to counter and neutralize our efforts. Sabaks, services, use of brain dead intellectuals as role models, bribes in form of social events and jamans, some one important in my corporate life once told me the way to someone's heart is through the stomach .

While we wait for the next bunch of Abde pawns to send their salvos let us be alert and strengthen our unity, resolve, knowledge, collect facts, form external alliances and other forms of resistance methods.

Self praise is always harmful and all this is just a over reaction to say the least. Instead of devising techniques to fight few Abdes on this site, Its high time that people on this site stop believing all the abdes as their enemies. People differ on ideological basis and faith, But can come together to fight against the ills of system

[SBM]

Aqs
People differ on ideological basis and faith, But can come together to fight against the ills of system

I will say Ameen to that as long as the other side has an open mind too.
Progressive movement has never been against Dawat and the position of Dai but against the corruption and as I said I hope you and more of you can be the conduit to fight the ills as Kotharis will refuse to even acknowledge that there is any thing wrong or there is any corruption in the system. It is fight between David and Goliath to paraphrase

[aqs]

Aqs
People differ on ideological basis and faith, But can come together to fight against the ills of system

I will say Ameen to that as long as the other side has an open mind too.
Progressive movement has never been against Dawat and the position of Dai but against the corruption and as I said I hope you and more of you can be the conduit to fight the ills as Kotharis will refuse to even acknowledge that there is any thing wrong or there is any corruption in the system. It is fight between David and Goliath to paraphrase

Oma,
when we talk about taking head on all the ill committed by few individuals then Look brother it sounds very easy but its very tough to act on. example can be many people on this site who support Reform movement but have still continued in the main stream, I will not say they dont have guts but its simple that they have to survive in the society.

So its better to talk about things which can be realistically achieved and will have affect also.

I'll give you my example, when i went for Ziyarats in India i didnt do salaam to any of the manager out their which every one was doing, its not that i can not afford it but i wanted to make a point that do i get the good view rooms inpite of NO salaams, so in few places i didnt get good rooms but at few places managers talked sweetly and gave good rooms(might be due to less people at that time). So i tried to do what i thought was correct.

[Smart]

aqs
Self praise is always harmful and all this is just a over reaction to say the least. Instead of devising techniques to fight few Abdes on this site, Its high time that people on this site stop believing all the abdes as their enemies. People differ on ideological basis and faith, But can come together to fight against the ills of system

Is self praise always harmful?
Actually everybody hears it from the Syedna. Show me one single vaez by this Syedna, which is bereft of self praise. Buddy, you need to give a little leeway to bro OZ. His post is not as blatant self praise as the Syedna's self praise. So why does he indulge in that?

Non of the PDBs consider any abde as their enemy. We consider you as our brothers who have been mislead by the wolves in the white clothing. We pity you and wish that you come out of the clutches of those who make you suckers. What sense does it make for free humans to come forwards and spend their time except, to emancipate their brothers from slavery. On the other hands it is abdes and their masters who consider the PDBs as Dushman. Just remember what you are made to sing in madehs, just one example "jahannum ma hazaaron saal jalse aap na dushman".

We will welcome you with open arms, unlike your masters, who ask to be paid a ransom, for anybody to be admitted in their fold. So, please don't judge us by the standards of the Kothar. We set much higher moral and ethical standards for ourselves.

[aqs]

Non of the PDBs consider any abde as their enemy. We consider you as our brothers who have been mislead by the wolves in the white clothing. We pity you and wish that you come out of the clutches of those who make you suckers. What sense does it make for free humans to come forwards and spend their time except, to emancipate their brothers from slavery. On the other hands it is abdes and their masters who consider the PDBs as Dushman. Just remember what you are made to sing in madehs, just one example "jahannum ma hazaaron saal jalse aap na dushman".

Thanks for the invitation, but i am happy to remain in the fold. And i dont think any of the abde's think Reformists as their Dushman, we also have the same feeling about you that you are let astray by few individuals, so instead of demeaning each other lets discuss the common goal of removing the ills from the community. And if you are not Dushman of Dawat then dont fear from the madeh its only for the Dushmans

And you cant blame all Abdes who in the past had indulged in foul language as you can very well see that its from both sides, and even my efforts of a dialogue in a civil way have been encountered by snide remarks and every day allegations are put on me being a PR or i have some ulterior motive

[anajmi]

aqs,

I agree with your approach. I think we should have a discussion. I have a copy of Daim-ul-Islam which you say is incorrect and only the Dawat has a true copy. Is it possible for you to get the true copy and show us what the differences are?

[aqs]

@Anajmi,

I dont have any copy, but all the people who impart sabaks have got their own copies provided by Kothar. As i am not from the group so it does not look i will be able to lay my hands on the same, But then also i will try to ask few people from Jamea whether they will be able to lend me their copy.

[anajmi]

Thanks aqs. Please get a copy. Even if they refuse to give you a copy, you can simply ask them to point out the differences between the one available on Amazon and the one that they have and we can go from there.