Islamic and unislamic concepts

[serendipity]

I have NO CLUE why Hur dragged this thread back up. But since he did, I'll ask AGAIN (since he didn't answer before): How progressive and ecumenical ARE you as a "shiah"? Do you agree that all shiah should seek for Imam's GUIDANCE in their lives, rather than "quibble" over his exact identity (since that's up to ALLAH anyhow)?

If we don't have the actual EXPERIENCE of his guidance (which is what our duas & wasilah are for), no amount of priestcraft is going to introduce him to us!

[Emm]

Br. Hur,

I am just curious .. have you ever taken/considered taking the Dawoodi-Bohra misaq ? You really seem to be in agreement with all the priesthood is saying. If not, then what do you think about the misaq ceremony in its present form ? Is taking an oath of slavery to serve the Da'i 'Islamic' ?

[hur]

Dear Serendipity,
I responded when persons speak behind my back (backbiting). It would have been better for them to ask instead of insinuating.

I didn't respond to your first request..because it deserves a thread of its own...it is quite a profound topic.

But in short...I do believe all shiah can be guided by the Imam...whether in present or hidden from sight through other means that Allah directs. I have never been caught up in the concept of this or that type of shiah.

Allah works in the simplest ways to show us signs and remind us. Our duas and wasilah would be answered in this same form. I do believe that the believer does need a physical medium of guidance though. This would be the Marajah, who is considered the Hujjat of the Imam. For bohras..it is the Dai. They provide the guidance to recognize the Imam and learn how to approach him through wasilah.

[hur]

Dear Emm,
I am in agreement with what I have personally heard the Dai say. I hope you understand that difference.

The mithaq I have read on this website is not at all unIslamic. If you read each item, each one is from the Quran or sunnah of the Ahlul Bayt. It maybe "undemocratic" to say the least...but then again Islam is not a democracy. We as shiahs are mustajib's of the Imam and his representatives. One cannot rise over a superior's authority...unless they themselves are given that right. I may disagree with the ideas of the Imam or Hujjat (Ayatuallah or Dai) but I also may not understand them.

[Muslim First]

Br. Hur

Can you defend following statemnt:

From:
Iftetah of Masjid-e-Muazzam - Surat, 1st of Shaaban 1417H

Shaikh Mustafa Abdulhussein

http://archive.mumineen.org/essays/crowngl.html

"I am ever concerned about you, that no unhappiness should touch you, that you may never be subject to grief or pain. Why should you then be worried? I, Mohammed Burhanuddin, will come to your aid in your hour of need. And at the trials of your grave, I will certainly be there. I am not saying this just to make you feel good - this is indeed the truth" .

Do you believe your 'Marajah' or 'Dai' will be present when you are questioned in grave or this is a unislamic concept (Innovation)?

Wasallam
.

[Humsafar]

Dear Hur (previously known as qiyam),

I can't understand why you had to reinvent yourself as a shiah. You could just as well have been a bohra "hur". Didn't it ever occur to you that no shiah in his or her right mind would ever defend your masters the way you do? You should have expected that people will call your bluff, sooner or later.

Either you take us all to be dumb or you think you are too smart (for your own good).

[serendipity]

Re - [Can you defend this statement: "I...will come to your aid in your hour of need. And at the trials of your grave, I will certainly be there. I am not saying this just to make you feel good - this is indeed the truth." Do you believe your 'Marajah' or 'Dai' will be present when you are questioned in grave or this is a unislamic concept?]

Let me reply with a question of my own: Why must the Faithful DENY the reality of their spiritual guides, just because hidebound muslims (and christians) are unable to find "literal" proof of this in their Books?

I certainly believe the above statement is true of my Guide. And I am HIGHLY impressed by the faith of others I've met, such as refugees from Tibet who live and die in peace because they KNOW their Lamas will be there for them in their hour of need!

JC made a good point recently when he said on another thread it's time for us to "grow up" and join the GLOBAL community of God's children today.

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,
Are you that ignorant as to suppose anyone who argue your viewpoint are all the same person. I am not a bohra...and if you noticed...I never claimed to be one. Br. Qiyam did.

While I may agree with the Dai and his teaching...I also agree with the teachings of Ayatuallahs Seestani, Khoei, and other Marajah.

And as far as defending your masters...I respect those that act in the same positions...whatever brand of shiah. I think you know as little about other shiahs sect as you do the bohra sect. Maybe you should get together with Br. MuslimFirst...he's pretty up to date with the happenings of the bohra community.

[porus]

I believe that have previously stated the theory I have about the likes of Qiyam and Hur, who, despite his protestation, is clearly a Bohra, born and bred.

These people are really closet 'progressives' and/or 'reformists'. They are testing their views here by playing the 'devil's advocate'. That is all.

No orthodox, who truly is a Dai's follower, will dare to participate on this site as it would be strictly against the Dai's farmaan. And no orthodox will claim to be following any one except the Dai, let alone the ithna-asharis, who the Dai is not very fond of. One of Dai's 'farmaan', I recall, is to avoid burying your dead in 'twelver' cemeteries and avoid janaza rites in the a 'twelver' masjid.

I am not sure if Hur and Qiyam are one, but I miss Qiyam's contribution and I would miss Hur if he disappeared.

[ponga bhori]

I happen to know that the Khotari Bhoris do paticipate on this board. Infact while they are at it they discuss with each other on the phone line and sometimes even ask the other to counter comment on the others posts. Most of these Khotari Bhoris I speak of are bhoris of African origins. They are quite proffesional at it, being on-line with multiple computers and a library at hand too.

[Humsafar]

Hur,

You protest too much. I'm absolutely convinced that you are qiyam, but I won't press the point any further.

I agree with porus. Your contributions are much appreciated, though it's anothr matter that I can never agree with you.

[serendipity]

If you find you're indulging in paranoid pastimes about khotaris on the PHONE with each other....it may be that ALLAH is telling you to get a LIFE.

As for Hur being a "closet progressive", well he certainly hasn't dredged up any narrow sectarian nonsense about avoiding janaza rites in a 'twelver' masjid or burying one's dead in 'twelver' cemeteries! So if you don't mind let's leave that kind of CRAP to the wahabis of Saudi, who have imposed their own hindu CASTE SYSTEM (including "untouchables") in the heartland of Islam. (Didn't you tell them about that, MF? )

[hur]

Humsafar, Porus, Serendipity, etc.

This is the last comment I have on the matter...as idiotic as it is.

Br. Qiyam as I recall was a die hard supporter of the Dai...and stated so as well as the fact that he was/is an orthodox bohra. Sorry Porus..theory incorrect.

I, on the other hand, strongly support the Ayatuallahs theological viewpoints as well as the concept of a universal Imam (hidden or not). Br. Qiam would never have admitted so.

It just so happens that I do know many bohras (othrodox and reformists alike) from my life in Uganda and in the US. It is sad how little many of you know about your own community let alone others like my own (twelver).

And Porus, I would disagree on the Dai fondness of twelver. He has said many nice things about the twelvers. Yes, burial rites and cementaries farmans are correct, but than again, the Ayatuallahs have said the same thing (kudos Serendipity). All actually use the same justification for hadiths.

And dear Humsafar, I don't mind you not agreeing with me, it shows you are human. But please disagree me with evidence (other than "I think")..that's using your Aql. You can pretend I am anyone you want...fair enough?

[Humsafar]

Hur,

It's you who is doing the pretending not me. No matter. What is interesting is that you've expanded your canvas, so to speak. A natural, rational progression would be from dai to "no dai". But you seem to have gone in the opposite direction - form dai (and) to ayatollahas. Wow man, you're a sucker for mullahs. What I can't understand is that why do you need mullahs to understand your religion. Can't you think for yourself? Are you incapable of using your Aql?

Or may be understanding religion is not you objective. Your agenda is to defend the corrupt, hierarchical system of priestcraft. Not a bad use of Aql for a pretender like you!

[serendipity]

Humsafar,

If I may emphasize the POSITIVE development that has occurred here (which I believe you also acknowledge). "Hur" has endorsed a NON-sectarian concept of universal Imam (hidden or not). As for "Br. Qiyam", I acknowledge that he originally provided me with SOME (although not all) of the duas I currently use, and I thank him for that.

I wouldn't even be bothering to POST on this board if I had not discovered what a genuine source of Guidance is available to us all! So with reference to what you call a "natural, rational progression" relatively FREE of mullah-interference (although respectful of sincere mullahs), I believe this can still OCCUR!

I recall that you recently mentioned Leon T's concept of "permanent revolution"? Well as a former student of this school myself, I accept that the ferment of transformation, change and progression must be ONGOING. We cannot REASONABLY expect it to occur abruptly or immediately.

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,
I don't want to get into mud slinging. If you want to ask me something do so..please.

Regarding my affinity for "mullahs"...I am assuming you had teacher..right? Or did you just learn everything from a book by yourself. Oh wait a second, if you learned from a book..that means you learn from someone else..and apparently your totally against that..at least religious learning. For me, I need a guide to help me to understand..be it the proper performance of wudhu or the true meaning and purpose of the salat itself. I have little trouble acknowledging my ignorance of many things..so I turn to "mullahs". My aql doesn't expand or grow unless there is a source of knowledge or experience.

For your info...I have commonly quoted from Ayatuallahs..seeing as I follow some of them as a shiah.

[Humsafar]

Serendipity,

I personally can't relate to the concept of Imam, universal or otherwise. To each his own.

But generally, your points are well taken. Absolutely, the "ferment of transformation" must be ongoing. Only fools and quantum mechanics can be expected to be abrupt and unpredictable.