enslavement of children by parents.

[Bohra spring]

So the few regular PDB commentators are speaking on behalf of tens of thousands registered members of Progressive DB. How did they assume that delegation of representation...do they seat as a committee and decide what is in or out ? What happens to process and how does one disagree with PDB ideology...

I think there is an ignored possibility that there are more and probably in 100s of thousand non- registeredPDB members who are holding ejamaat cards , some have left ortho and are living private lives, who represent the general reformists. They have not chosen to to be PDB , but share the ideals of reforming Dawoodi Bohra , eg the Qutbi, the people like myself and these are the one we are communicating to. Some PDB members may have joined because that was the only opposition available , but things are changing ...PDB can have that mindset to be all inclusive and be the prominant and grow but if they remain stubborn and stuck in the 70s mentality they will remain one of the many reform groups. I will not be part of the old PDB.

Do I sense insecurity from PDB seniors that our discussions are raising concerns that their own people might be raising whether PDB is the best or just better ? Or are new recruits wondering whether to join PDB if they want real forms . It is likely a political party situation where 2 major parties are fearing the independents or those who have a swing vote and one time votes right the other time left.

This PDB ideology that we seem to be told now and again when we breach it, is written if so where, documented and is now being managed by a team of who ? These regular commentators

Does it mean a Dawoodi can never have Sunni flavour , hence the criticism of Likes of Anajmi, myself are a thorn in your agenda because we are exposing contradictions .

Instead of respecting the intelligence of the reader to determine what is reasonable i hope you dont believe sensoring, abuse , ridicule , is the way to distance yourselves from popular thoughts. Your continued stubbornness in this style is exposing previously ignored weaknesses.

[Al Zulfiqar]

this debate about enslavement of children is taking an interesting turn. we have so many children on this forum!!

1. bro gm, your suggestion is wise, but how would admin know whom to label what? there is no paid admin of this board, which, as it is, functions with bare minimum supervision and extremely limited resources, both financial and manpower-wise. labelling each and every participant would require a) honesty from each member, b) tons of extra work for the admin.

2. i am thankful to humsafar for supporting my views. as i have categorically stated, no one is restricting anyone from expressing their views, but please be mindful that you do not contradict or harm the official stance of the progressive bohra movement as spelt out on this forum. after all, atleast acknowledge that you are on a forum hosted by them, so do not abuse the freedoms they provide. that is a "REQUEST". can't people have atleast enough common sense to RESPECT THAT??

3. as for restricting people on this forum, people who contribute nothing to sensible solutions & advancing the cause of reforms within the dawoodi bohra framework; yes, the time has come to actively consider it. they have other sub-forums like islam today, or here and now etc, where they can write and shoot their mouths off totally unrestricted. i suggest that the administrators of this site create a new sub-forum called, maybe 'bohra opinions', or something else along those lines where topics, comments, suggestions, however far-fetched they may be, can be freely aired and leave the sub-forum 'bohras and reform' only to those who have something useful to actually contribute to reform. this is absolutely neccessary because under the guise of 'reform' many are propagating extreme ideas, such as total revolution, violence, total rejection of all things 'bohra' including harmless customs, traditions and the like, misaq (not the perverted misaq of the last 2 dai's) and esp. those who detest the very idea of being a shia and bohra and pour ridicule and contempt on their beliefs at every opportunity. it is important to clarify that progressives (reformists) are not against bohra religion but are focused on accountability and democracy at jamaat and individual levels, whilst curbing the monstrous powers that the last 2 dai's have appropriated to themselves in complete violation of our scriptures and past practices of previous dai's. all those who are abusing the freedoms of the 'bohras and reform' sub-forum should be restricted, as some individuals have been done in the past and deny them access but allow them freedom in this new sub-forum and beyond to the other forums.

4. as everybody knows and humsafar has succinctly outlined, this forum and the word 'reformist' arouses extreme reactions among the orthodox and fanatic bohras who have been fed lies and systematically brainwashed. the views of cranks and extremists, no matter how well-intentioned, does not help the cause. in fact it does more harm than the fanatic abde-syednas who come here, take one peek and break out into abuse, because all they see is 'progressives' (lumping all members together) abusing, ridiculing misaq, the concept of hidden imam, overthrowing the dai, hanging his sons publicly et al!

it is time admin and his team took a long hard look at this, issued a policy statement and created a new sub-forum under general bohra opinions, before the reformist cause is totally lost.

[anajmi]

Here is what Al Z stated in his earlier post on this thread.

you know very well what i mean. everyone and anyone here is free to think whatever they want, as long as its in private. airing dangerous views in public on this forum is harmful to the reformist cause, which is clearly spelt out on the home page of this forum. what humsafar thinks or i think in private may be widely divergent from the core principles of the reformist movement, but we take care not to damage the reputation and credibility of the progressive movement and this forum.

So you see Humsafar, it wasn't a ridiculous exaggeration but exactly what was stated.

You're twisting the words. Individual opinions that run counter to the movement and expressed on behalf of the movement are of course detrimental to the movement. This is no different from individual opinions that run counter to the Quran and expressed on behalf of the Quran are of course detrimental to the Quran.

Yes, but individual opinions that run counter to the Quran are not being asked to be kept private are they? Infact your own personal opinions that run counter to the Quran are well documented on this forum. Did I not mention something about two faced?

So let me put forth my suggestion one more time. Only people with the same thought process as Humsafar and Al Z should be allowed to post over here. The rest can go post somewhere else. This is no longer a "free" forum!! This has already been tested out with Muslim First who is no longer allowed to post here. Maybe we should do the same with think, bohra spring, anajmi and the others.

[anajmi]

And by the way, when I refer to the thought process of Al Z, I am only referring to his thought process during the course of this thread. He has done a severe 180 degree turn. I guess he has been "reformed".

[Safiuddin]

Then be pleased that you have given the oath of allegiance to the Imam and his Dai, God says in the Quran to Prophet: "O Mohammed the people do not give the oath of allegiance to you, rather they give it to God. The hand of God is above the hands of all people". Whoever breaks the covenant his soul will be tormented and whoever fulfills the covenant God will bless him and will highly recompense him.

Based on this excerpt from the Bohri Misaaq, Burhanuddin and his ilk have broken the covenant.
The oath of allegiance is not to be given to any human - not even Mohammed.

[think]

Thank you saif; as I said earlier I'd rather be abdullah( abde allah) than abde syedna .

[think]

G.M now imagine what kind of thought process these kids will develop as they grow up. I have seen gatherings where a moderate bohra had sent his kid to madrassah to study quran and namaz. The child's father was in pant shirt and enjoying the social event, but his 12 year old child was in saya qurta and topi .

[ghulam muhammed]

How many ex jamea ustads/amils have enrolled their children in Jamea ??? I was told it was practically NONE !! Now why is it so ? In all probability they have realised that Jamea is not the right place for gaining dawat knowledge but only a commercial institution where robots are prepared whose business is to only tow kothar's lines and act as collection agents.

The present day Jamea students are only the siblings of rich bohras residing in gulf or western countries who have purchased the "Sheikh" title after paying astronomical sums to kothar.

[Al Zulfiqar]

... Muslim First who is no longer allowed to post here. Maybe we should do the same with think, bohra spring, anajmi and the others.

now you finally got it, after spending years on this forum with absolutely nothing positive to contribute to 'bohras and reform'..! thank you!

laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahin maante.

[anajmi]

Aww please, grow a pair and stop this whining!!

[zinger]

Mr Zinger. I have never asked for jehad . Bohri people are a culture of peace loving people . How many bohris do you see in the army? My aim is to change back to the days of peace and happiness that prevailed before the 51st. in the bohri community. The ruthless masters of a religion that really belongs to Allah have made us worse than animals. I see fanatism everywhere . I see bohris beating up bohris. Rude behaviours. Religious clashes between father and son and mother and daughter. In golden days gone by this was unheard of as a bohri character. The cruel masters have phycologically played havoc on the uneducated and guillabe. These rituals that ask for slavery and these technicolor safai chithis causing division between two bohris should be stopped.

completely agree with what you said.

i dont think you understood the context of what i was saying. all i was saying that wadhaavanu (not an Islamic tradition) is better than wrongful jehaad (slowly being misinterpreted as an Islamic tradition).

anyways, i never said you asked for Jehad, you are a simple, quiet person, i see that. if you thought i was accusing you of proposing jehaad, you are wrong, i never did.

[zinger]

zinger,

A little off-topic but still pertaining to our conversation.
It's a Bohra practice that I'm sure many people have engaged in where we do wadaahvnu to family members on the eve of their waras. It's in good fun and celebration and we try to sprinkle a little faith in it which is meant of good intention with religious thought. Needless to say, it's not doctrine (may or may not be in Bushaeba's sahifa; haven't checked) yet it's something we do in celebration with light natured Islamic thoughts in mind. I partake in it myself, and don't see it too different from cake cutting ceremonies. More tradition and goodwill than anything.

However the way it's practiced these days with aamils, bhaisahebs, shehzadas and moula sickens me a little. Cause it's excessive, observers are melodramatically emotional, their's pomp and glory all over the place, and it happens so often. For pretty much every function. There's wadhaavanu to the tune of madeh while people glower at the sight and always some sort of payment made on behalf of who's thaali it is. Not to mention, often multiple wadhaavnu's. Glorification and constant excess that makes my heart sink at the sight. I do not find it in me to honestly justify this practice. So I'm not putting you on the defensive so much as wondering what your thoughts are, so that I could understand another view.

completely agree with you too.

just 1 small request, please... thode kam shabd mein baat kijiye, i got lost in one of your earlier posts. no offence meant, but i was drowning in words

[Bohra spring]

I have taken GMs transalation and converted to a 21st Century politically correct Misaq ! Inappropriate statements have been deleted. This is first draft andy other suggestions

Translation of Bohra Misaq :-

"And if the Imam of the time or his Dai calls upon you to obey the Imam of the time or his Dai sincerely......Say yes.

And whatever the Imam of the time or his Dai recommends and you shall not become hostile to the Dai. You shall not falsify the Dai.

You shall keep up the command of the Imam and that Imam is Imam Tayeb Abul Qasim Amirul-Mominin. He is your Imam.

And you shall accept the order of the Dai of Imam in all spiritual things. And you shall not use that thing which the Dai shall forbid you, and you shall not take steps (towards it). You shall love him whom the Dai loves.
At that time you shall not shirk or play the coward. You shall with all heart spend your property and your life in the cause of the Dai...Say yes.

And you shall not permit yourself to be induced to withhold assistance from the Dai, service and obedience to him, and prevent you from carrying out the order of the Dai. Further you shall not offer any disbeliever to turn you away from taking the oath of the covenant to the Dai. You shall render perfect service with your property and with the offer of your mind (to the Dai).....Say yes.

And you shall be pleased by the order of the Dai of the Imam. The Dai shall raise among you or degrade among you persons as he likes. He shall gift to and shall deprive persons as he pleases. The Dai shall reward persons and shall point out them in his discretion. The Dai shall smile upon or shall break his wrath on whomsoever he thinks fit. You shall be pleased in that which Dai is pleased....Say yes.

The person to whom the oath is due enjoins to this effect that if a person on whom it is made obligatory by me to keep faith to the oath openly or secretly breaks it the defaulter is forsaken by God the Creator of the Earth and heavens, the framer of the limbs of the creatures, the conferer of blessings on him, and the Bestower of health. The breaker of the oath is shut out from the books Tawrat (laws of Moses), Injeel (The Bible), Zaboor (Psalms of David), and the Holy Quran. He is also deprived of the perfect words (Blessings of the Imam)....Say yes.

All the benefits which he had already enjoyed (from his possessions) becomes unlawful i.e. with a prospective effect unless he takes the oath afresh (the past enjoyments) do not become lawful. Say yes...say yes.

And the breaker of the covenant accursed of God by that curse which was inflicted on Iblis, the Satan the effect of which was that paradise was lost to Satan and hell became his inheritance.

There is no freedom for your soul but loyalty to the covenant and there is no salvation for you but in fulfilling the terms of the covenant. You have made God your witness and the testimony of God is enough...say yes.

You heard my words and you are pleased with my conditions. The person to whom the covenant is due say that you took upon your neck the obligation to hear the covenant of God and you took the mighty oath and you gave oath of allegiance which is very strong and which for our Lord the Imam Tayeb Abul Qasim Amiril Mominin may the peace of God be on him and his holy ancestors and the generous descendants who are expected till the day of resurrection.

Then be pleased that you have given the oath of allegiance to the Imam and his Dai, God says in the Quran to Prophet: "O Mohammed the people do not give the oath of allegiance to you, rather they give it to God. The hand of God is above the hands of all people". Whoever breaks the covenant his soul will be tormented and whoever fulfills the covenant God will bless him and will highly recompense him.
The person from whom the Misaq is taken says that God may keep firm to the covenant and it may not be that he may treat the covenant as a mere deposit. May God grant you and me, the true believers, to be faithful to the covenant and my God keep you and me steadfast to His obedience and the obedience of God's prophet and the obedience of Wali of God, the present Imam and his Dai and may God make it complete for you and us to remain firm for the mercy of God through the good end. And (all) praise is due to God, the one, the great Avenger; and peace of God be on Mohammed the Selected and on his wasi, Preserver, and on his Progeny, the good, the pure, the righteous.

And Salaam!

[zinger]

Baap re bohra spring saab....

[Humsafar]

Here is what Al Z stated in his earlier post on this thread.
you know very well what i mean. everyone and anyone here is free to think whatever they want, as long as its in private. airing dangerous views in public on this forum is harmful to the reformist cause, which is clearly spelt out on the home page of this forum. what humsafar thinks or i think in private may be widely divergent from the core principles of the reformist movement, but we take care not to damage the reputation and credibility of the progressive movement and this forum.
So you see Humsafar, it wasn't a ridiculous exaggeration but exactly what was stated.

I'll let AZ answer that.

Yes, but individual opinions that run counter to the Quran are not being asked to be kept private are they? Infact your own personal opinions that run counter to the Quran are well documented on this forum. Did I not mention something about two faced?

The point is not about saying "counter" to something, but one of misrepresentation.

So let me put forth my suggestion one more time. Only people with the same thought process as Humsafar and Al Z should be allowed to post over here. The rest can go post somewhere else.

This is your twisted conclusion.

This is no longer a "free" forum!! This has already been tested out with Muslim First who is no longer allowed to post here.

Actually Muslim First has no business posting here, he is neither a Bohra nor a reformist. And as AZ said he did not contribute anything of value.

Maybe we should do the same with think, bohra spring, anajmi and the others.

You should seriously consider that, especially Bohra spring.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Your last post is the poster child for "not contributing anything of value".

First you say - This is your twisted conclusion.

And then you say - You should seriously consider that, especially Bohra spring.

hmmm!!!

[Humsafar]

I like it when people take their twisted conclusion to its logical conclusion. And in this particular case I heartily support it.

[anajmi]

You first refer to a conclusion as a twisted conclusion and then turn around and heartily support it. Well, I guess my conclusion about you being two faced should be heartily supported as well, as it is now a logical conclusion.

[Humsafar]

Good point. Now take your own advice (and make yourself scarce) otherwise you are in danger of becoming two-faced like me.

[anajmi]

As I told Al Z, grow a pair and stop whining!!

[Humsafar]

You too, and take your own advice.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Aww please, grow a pair and stop this whining!!

as humsafar has replied, you need to grow a pair of your own, since you have contributed nothing of value to the cause of reform in bohras. what you deserve is a sound kick on your backside and being booted out of the forum.

all you have done since the past decade here is pour scorn, contempt and ridicule on shias and bohras in particular. you are the perfect example of an ungrateful, greedy and viciously mean guest who abuses the very host who gives him food and shelter. dont push your luck too far.

[badrijanab]

Aww please, grow a pair and stop this whining!!

as humsafar has replied, you need to grow a pair of your own, since you have contributed nothing of value to the cause of reform in bohras. what you deserve is a sound kick on your backside and being booted out of the forum.

all you have done since the past decade here is pour scorn, contempt and ridicule on shias and bohras in particular. you are the perfect example of an ungrateful, greedy and viciously mean guest who abuses the very host who gives him food and shelter. dont push your luck too far.

Kanoon andha hota he, magar Admin nahi. Hope Admin note the feelings of senior members!

[anajmi]

all you have done since the past decade here is pour scorn, contempt and ridicule on shias and bohras in particular.

Yeah, right!! None of your posts show any of that now do they? You turned out to be nothing more than a monkey jumping from one branch to another.

It's a pity that none of you turned out to be more than that which you claim to despise. Atleast I have been consistent over the last decade!!

you are the perfect example of an ungrateful, greedy and viciously mean guest who abuses the very host who gives him food and shelter. dont push your luck too far.

Please, this site needs people like me just as much as people like me need sites like this. Without me, even the little bit of the message of the Quran that I produce would be lost in the cacophony produced by empty drums like you.

[anajmi]

badrijanab,

Couldn't find your hidden Imam? Or is Admin your hidden Imam?

[Grayson]

I've heard from brother MF that he's not allowed to post on this forum as well. I do not think that's fair. However, if his views do nothing but continuously argue Sunni v. Shia I understand why he's not allowed to, but all the same, ask for him to be uncensored.

This petty fighting needs to stop. Let anajmi (and all opposing views) post freely; no one's forced to reply to any of them, and neither are they representative of PDB so there's no harm done.

It's the decision of the reader to consider him a troll or not. It harms our movement a lot more when people who empathize and believe in much of our cause hurl abuses at each other and towards core aspects of the very thing we're trying to reform.

Considering most of his arguments are in regards to articles of faith via Quranic references (and he replies to people who are talking on their version of Islam with his interpretation) it's not off-topic. Although I would personally like to request you (anajmi) to keep your Islamic arguments in the Islam Today forum as there's nil contribution to Bohras and Reform if you continue anti-Shia sentiment. Or atleast Admin could move those arguments that break out to it's designated forum. Not to police, but to put your arguments under the theme it belongs instead of getting in the way of more sensitive readers that strongly differ in view.

[anajmi]

Basically, what you are saying is that bohras have nothing to do with Islam right? And I shouldn't argue with bohras regarding their reform on the basis of the Quran, right? These sensitive readers that you refer to sound like bunch of pussies!!

[Grayson]

You made that assumption long ago. Continue arguing for it, but under the proper heading. We're not looking for a dramatic revolution.

[Grayson]

Basically, what you are saying is that bohras have nothing to do with Islam right? And I shouldn't argue with bohras regarding their reform on the basis of the Quran, right? These sensitive readers that you refer to sound like bunch of pussies!!

They're not sensitive as much as you're insensitive.

[anajmi]

I am not here to cater to what you are looking for. I am not asking for a dramatic revolution either cause a bunch of sissies can't bring about a dramatic revolution. I am just trying to keep this forum accessible to all, even those with dramatic ideas. But this forum is not mine. I am just another participant.

Anyway, I have said my piece. I am done with this discussion.