Unfair Admin rules

[porus]

Dear Africawala,

Please do not get me wrong. I have utmost respect for Aga Khan. I know several Ismailies closely enough to share social intercourse with their families regularly. I consider them Muslims.

I was considering the position of Imam with respect to shariat. Is it not true that Aga Khan's ancestors have decreed the end of shariat? However, I believe that shariat must be observed by an Imam. But that is my understanding. Others may not agree.

With respect to prescribed prayers, there appears continuity of practise since early days of Islam. I have heard of anecdotes of Prophet being in Sujood. In one famous episode, Imam Hussain apparently climbed on his back while he was in sujood. Prophet did not rise from sujood until Hussain climbed down. Hazrat Ali was killed while in an act of sujood.

Prophet performing Tawaaf around the Kaaba is well documented as well as his kissing Hajar al-Aswad. Yes changes have taken place in the actual rituals amongst various sects but they seem to abide by the core.

Masjids were built by Prophet, and their architecture and the direction of qibla have basically remained unchanged. JamaatKhana as aplace of worship is not found anywhere where there are no Ismailies.

Of course, as I said, Aga Khan, in his wisdom, will do whatever is appropriate for him in accordance with his understanding. If I were his follower, I would go along with that.

[porus]

The episode of Imam Hussain on Prophet's back occured when Hussain was very young, perhaps a toddler.

It is important that we tolerate wide diversity of meanings and interpretations amongst Muslims, and Ismailies are an important component of Islam, as are others, like Bohras and Ahmadiyyas, who are showered with 'uncalled for opprobrium', specially by Wahhabis.

[Africawala0000]

Dear Porus,

With respect to prescribed prayers, there appears continuity of practise since early days of Islam.

"appears" - You do not seem to be 100 percent sure!
“Early days of Islam, is different from “during the time of the Prophetâ€

[porus]

Dear Africawala,

You raised valid points and I have no hesitation in calling you a Muslim. Rituals change over time and place.

I was only concerned with how we recognize a true Imam.

Ismailies need no convincing about who their Imam is. Neither do Bohras and Ithna-asharies.

I have no wish to further engage in this dialog. As I said, everyone is entitled to their point of view and they are all correct from their point of view. I am convinced that God allows all points of view. Sincerity of your intention, rather than rituals, I believe, is important.

[anajmi]

porus,

Tell me you are not regretting opening your mouth!!

[Africawala0000]

Dear Porus,

I was considering the position of Imam with respect to shariat. Is it not true that Aga Khan's ancestors have decreed the end of shariat? However, I believe that shariat must be observed by an Imam. But that is my understanding. Others may not agree.

You are right, I believe the 23rd Imam did away with Sharia because the batin aspect of the faith was being comprised. The 25th Imam, however, reinstated the Sharia and incorporated the batin aspect. After that no Imam has decreed the end of Sharia.

Give me your honest opinion. Remember the incident of Jang E Sifin? When Muawiya's men held the Qur'an upon the swords, Mowla Ali asked his men to continue fighting and not worry about the Qur'an and he said, "This is the silent Qur'an, and I am the speaking Qur'an". Here the Walaya of Imam is more important, without which you are not considred to be a believer, and I quoted the ahadith wherein the Prophet said that unless and until you love me more than any human being, your are not a believer; there was another hadith I quoted, where the Prophet called a man, but the man continued praying and the Prophet told him that Allah S.W.T. had said, Obey Allah, and Obey the Apostle, so the man should have abandoned his prayer (which is rememberance of God and a part of Sharia, in fact one of the pillars of Islam) and answer the Prophet.

Those who have Imams understand the position of Imam based upon the ahadith of the Prophet above. Those who don't will never understand!

Unlike you, people would rather see Aga Khan disappear, but that is not going to happen. They will disappear but Imams will always be present! So they are in for a long haul, brother!

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
porus,

Tell me you are not regretting opening your mouth!!

anajmi, brother,

I do. I do regret. How unthoughtful of me, tch, tch.

[Muslim First]

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Br. Porus and anajmi;

AS

I had prepared some material to post today but am convinced that it will do no good. So I will not persue that path.

Just someting on

Intercession;

The Holy Qur’an states (78:38) “The day that spirit [i.e. Jobreel] and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none will speak except one who is permitted by [Allah], Most Gracious, and he will speak what is right.â€

[anajmi]

br. Muslim First,

I have actually heard that we may be in hell before we are rescued by the prophet's intercession.

[jamanpasand]

Is there any fool left for the next post ?
Please come forward !!!!

[jamanpasand]

Important Announcement

This is a roller coaster ride and will go round and round in unending circles.

One ticket will give you endless boring rides.

[kabeer19922001]

Dear Africawalla/Pardesi

In your arguments with Anjami, Muslim First, Iam not sure if you managed to read my post. Could you give some comments on the questions in my post. In summary my question was why have the Bohri's, Ithna Shri's, Agha Khani's evolved into 3 different sects with nothing in common except for their professed love for Ahle Bait. I don't know about Agha Kahnai', but Bohri's and Ithna Shri's openly make fun of the other sects, knowing very well that the origins are the same.

Regards

[Muslim]

In summary my question was why have the Bohri's, Ithna Shri's, Agha Khani's evolved into 3 different sects with nothing in common except for their professed love for Ahle Bait.

I'm not sure how you arrived at nothing in common. Please can you identify what the major doctrinal differences are?

Please understand the distinction between doctrinal differences and differences in non-obligatory rituals and customs. On the latter, Yemeni Bohras and Indian Bohras follow different customs many of which are rooted from their Arab or Hindu origins. Similarly you will find huge differences between Indian Khoja Twelvers, Iraqi and Iranian Twelvers.

You mentioned zanjeer-matam, which I would classify in the latter category. The majority of Twelver scholars disapprove of this practice, and even those who do approve acknowledge that it does not have early Shii origins.

I don't know about Agha Kahnai', but Bohri's and Ithna Shri's openly make fun of the other sects, knowing very well that the origins are the same.

Please can you elaborate on the openly make fun part.

[Muslim]

Kabeer,
Please could you reply on the new thread I created on the Islam Today forum, as felt its more appropriate there.
Thanks.

[kabeer19922001]

Dear Muslim

I think we should let Africawalla to explain the doctrinal differences as he converted from Bohrism to Agha Khani.

I will start with the Imam. Here lies the biggest difference. Each sect has a different Imam, who they profess is the right one. Each Imam is giving very different teaching to its followers.

Lets take namaz for example. Bohri's and Shias have 5 prayers. However, the way they pray and the supplication they make are different. As I used to pray the Bohra prayers and have now opted for the Sunni prayers, I can say that the Bohri and Sunni prayers are not very different. The Shia do not do "salam" to finish the prayer. They pat their thighs.

Agha Kahi have thier own way to pray. Lets say its not in line with how the Bohra and Shias pray.

So now we have 3 imams all telling their followers to pray differntly. Bohra also have prayers for their dai and imam etc.

Roza. Again Bohri and Shia's fast. But the issue is the timing of the iftaar. Bohri's do iftaar after they pray maghreb prayers, an innovation of the dai as tole to me by my Bohra ustaad, Shia wait for even longer and Agha Khani do not fast.

Will write more.

[Muslim First]

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Brothers
I have questions regarding succession.

Hz. Ali passed on Imamat to Hz. Hasan 9Hz. Hasan being oldes son). Did he confirm NASS on him?

Hz. Hasan abdicated as a Khalifa but perhaps kept Imaamat with him. When he died did he pass Immamat to his son or to Imaam Hussani?

Is there historical record about NASS from Hasan to Hussain.

Let us assume that NASS passed on to Imam Jafar-Al-Siddique.

He died in 148/765. So up to 148/765 he was Imam.

When he died he passed NASS supposedly to his eldest living Son Musa Al-Kazim.

How his oldest son Ismail did become Imaam when he died in 143/760?

To me logically Ismail or his progeny had no claim to Imamat.

Now somewhere Ismaili line vanishes and reappears in Africa. Lot of historians has doubts about that lineage.

Then Bohras and Ismailis split. Only god knows who inherited real "NOOR"

Now on Bohra side child Imam is sent into hiding and this lady takes over.

On the other side Agakhani's claim diapered Imam shows up in Almut and moves fro there to Europe via Persia and India.

Now this lineage has gaps thru which you can drive thru H.I.'s racing horse.

This is all confusing. Is this Allah's plan for all of us?

One Imaam is thousands of years old and hiding.

One Imam has normal life span but is in hiding and two Dai's claim his mental.

One Imaam got his NOOR passed thru his playboy father and is violating commands of religion.

Confusion, Confusion.

Brothers please clarify.

Wasalaam
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