Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Anajmi

As someone who condones violence against women, who believes their wired infereor in the brain, who actually believes its acceptable desecrate religious and culturally significant sites of other great faiths, and sympathise with terrorists who murder in the name of a weak god.

I am not surprised you could not do better than repeat your tired diatribe.

(Sigh)

jawanmardan,

Unfortunately, it is the Hazar Imam's fault that he has failed to propagate the true interpretation of the quran amongst the more than 1.2 billion muslims on earth. That is the reason why Muslims are an Ummah in trouble right now. The job that was assigned to the Amirul Mumineen by Allah himself has been completely bungled by him. Look at the state of the Muslims today.

By the way, I salute your capability to perform 180 degree somersaults every other post. I guess, the monkeys in the muslim ummah were properly educated by the Hazar Imam.

One other thing, I hope the Amirul Mumineen, the Imam appointed by Allah himself as the leader of the muslim, the direct descendent of Hazrat Ali is built of sterner stuff than some of his enlightened followers. I have only been voicing my concerns about the plight of the muslim ummah for a couple days and already his enlightened followers are pulling their hair out. If not, the state of the muslim ummah is bound to get worst, unless Allah decides to give us a better Amirul Mumineen.

Anajmi,

Keep parroting your facist beliefs, that it would appear is all your capable of, I once hoped you were capable of more but alas I was too generous.

I have been entirely consistent in my point of view. And have defended the majority Ummah from the minority imbeciles who have hijacked our faith, at a historical juncture.

Unlike your infantile nonsensical posts peppered with your perverse view of faith; where you laud the benefits of domestic violence and cultural desecration amongst other heartless beliefs; I have always defended the essence of Islam as a faith of tolerance and compassion. Your blind hate for anything, or anyone who does not conform to your sorry mould has blinded you to the fact.

No reasonable person is salivating at the opportunity of sharing a faith with someone who demonstrates such utter disregard for compassion, dignity, and universal suffrage that you have so done on this board, let alone a place of worship.

So please go on and repeat, repeat, repeat, your juvenile attack. Let the burka of your extremist views be lifted.

jawanmardan,

I am sorry but I didn't understand a lot of your post. I know that it was plain rhetoric, however I am not sure if it was in english or in latin.

I think I read somewhere that you defended the majority Ummah. Now that is news to me, after all weren't you the one who said, only a few posts back

because Muslims are if taken as a civilization rank amongst the most illiterate, backward, misogynistic, homophobic, suffer human rights abuses on an unprecedented scale, and make up the largest group of refugees on the planet.

I see you still performing those 180 degree somersaults. Please go on somersault, somersault and then somersault some more.

However I have to agree with you when you say that the faith has been hijacked by a minority of imbeciles. Unfortunately, our Amirul Mumineen His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan is busy racing horses instead of saving the Muslim Ummah from the clutches of these imbeciles. Let us take a break from this circus and pray together that our Hazar Imam wakes up from his slumber and saves the muslim ummah.

anajami,

As I said if you have actually read my posts in their entirety, you would understand my position.

So allow me to summarise:

Muslim populations are victims pressured into resisting any form of secular education, and/or democracy which would elevate their material and individual standing by dictators on the one hand, and religious extremists on the other, and a small number of vested interests in the west.

I wrote clearly that Muslims suffer from human rights abuses, and statistically make up the largest group of refugees. They are clearly victims; yet they show a great resilience, and heart in the face of what the people you sympathise with inflict upon them daily on the one hand; and brutal dictators on the other.

Yet there is hope, more than hope; belief through:

Muslims who once free morn the cultural desecration of their history, and teach their children of their glorious past whether the Bamyan Buddha, the Egyption Sphinx, or Turkey’s revival.

Muslims who work tirelessly to prevent domestic violence, and wholesale abuse of women’s rights by chauvinistic, weak men like yourself.

Muslims who believe there is no compulsion in religion, and that ones spiritual life is determined by a personal relationship to God.

Muslims who condemn terrorism as a legitimate form of protest, against legitimate concerns.

Muslims who wish to bring democratic reforms, and with it accountability to allow the majority impoverished, persecuted, and enslaved population to have a voice and take power back.

I view the salvation of Islam as emanating in honest, open and constructive debate about the issues Muslim communities face, and about what it means to be a Muslim, in the 21st century. People of your mind set fear questioning, and an exchange of ideas most.

Turkeys secular democratic and Islamic party the AKP, is a prime example of this successful debate, they have combined Islamic cultural, and social values with a modern secular state extending greater human rights and freedoms to all citizens and bringing closer the dream of Turkey joining the EU as a modern European state.

Women like Dr Laila Ahmed work tirelessly to reform outdated ideas of the role of women within Islamic societies, and realise we can never reach our true potential as long as over 50% of our population is kept, oppressed, and secluded from participating within society as equals.

Progressive Muslim movements are springing up within the western diasporas and while one may agree or disagree with many of their ideas, they do stimulate an open, honest, and constructive debate, and leave the door to questions. Even non progressive Muslim women are increasingly demanding equal access to mosques, a seat on the governing board, and a say over financial matters.

As for the Aga Khan I hate to burst your bubble but he leads a tariqah, not the Ummah, both he and we, hardly encourage anyone to join our tariqah, as we value all Islamic paths as equally valid, in fact Isma’ili value diversity within Islam, it enriches us all his Plusralism Project, His museum of Islamic art, his Trust for culture, and his relationship with other moderate tariqahs demonstrates this.

I know that it is hard for you to see anything but in absolutes, but Islam, spirituality, and human life is infinitely more complex and we are all the better for it!

Anajmi welcome to the 21st century!

Originally posted by anajmi:
the state of the muslim ummah is bound to get worst, unless Allah decides to give us a better Amirul Mumineen.

I guess Allah made a mistake......now we hope He decides to give us a better Imam....
Turbonut

jawanmardan,

As for the Aga Khan I hate to burst your bubble but he leads a tariqah, not the Ummah, both he and we, hardly encourage anyone to join our tariqah

Burst my bubble???? That is the biggest Ismaili bubble that has just gone pop!!! Thank you acknowledging the fact that your Imam is simply your Imam and nothing else. Least of all appointed by Allah for the sake of all muslims. Thank God. And thank you for not inviting others to idol worshipping. That is probably your greated gift to mankind.

Now we can move on.

anajmi,

Are you really that ignorant and up your own reality, say its not so? We have never made him an issue on this board for prostelizing Isma’ilis and if you actually believed we were gosh it shows how much of an ignoramus you truly are to almost every issue being discussed.

Agreed lets move on.

Brother Porus,

Whether one regards the Sayadina as the absolute grantee of the Hidden Imams wishes or not, the Isma’ili view of Imamate is essentially as an esoteric Qibla, or point of direction that links the faithful within a metaphorical context. Many of these ideas regarding Imamology underpin Isma’ilism historically.

I think it would be a loss if due to concerns; legitimate or otherwise regarding the position Saydina amongst sections the Bohra community; that those theological and philosophical ideas were pressured to be watered down, or removed so as to appear more complementary to standards arbitrarily set by more rigid interpretations of Islam.

As Isma’ilis we have a rich and vibrant theological belief system that great scholars Including our Imams have built up over time, and we ought to be very proud and feel privileged to have our spiritual roots built on such fruitful roots, they represent a search for deeper answers, meanings, directions and questions regarding the human condition.

With my warmest respects.

jawanmardan,

For Ismailis and Bohras, qibla has both a zahiri and batini significance.

My understanding is that only with deep understanding of prayer as an esoteric communion with God, qibla becomes the inner focus. Qibla in that sense is the pointer to the means (wasaa'il) of acquiring gnosis (ma'arifat).

Imamat is the wasaa'il and refers, not necessarily to physical (personified) Imams, but to the body of taawil revealed to us through the physical Imams. So, you are correct in saying that qibla, in esoteric sense, is Imamat.

This does not change shariat, as expounded in Daaimul Islam, one bit. Zahiri qibla remains the Kaaba in Makka and all zahiri actions of prayer are offered facing the Kaaba.

I think that there is a potential confusion by calling Imam or Dai the qibla. For non-adepts, they may become focus of worship, which is not Islamic.

That is why I object to ritual bowing and prostration to the person of the Imam/Dai. The taawil of namaaz is clear that all shariat of namaaz (zahiri actions) must be followed. Thus both bowing and prostration is towards the Kaaba only and not to any person. However, the inner focus during Namaaz will point to Imamat in esoteric sense.

Needless to say, when Kotharis talk about haqiqi qibla, they do not point out the zahiri/batini distinction. Hence, there are popular madehs comparing Sayedna to God, a clear case of Shirk.

Porous: I am a bit confused. we do we derive all this esoteric (batni) and outer (zahiri) notions.

is it in quran, or just hearsay. If this is in any other book than quran, then it carries not wieght. This is just like cult building, one may claim that he had a dialogue with god in esoteric sense, and god has made him an imam or dai.

sorry, please read "how do we derive..........

accountability,

Exposition of taawil is the function of Imam. It is Imam who expounds the inner meaning (baatin) of tanzil (quran). All tawil/baatin must have its source in the Quran.

Tafseer of taawil can be undertaken by the Dai or other learned persons. I do not believe that the Dai can reveal/originate taawil, although that appears to be the (I think, mistaken) belief of the Bohras.

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Exposition of taawil is the function of Imam. It is Imam who expounds the inner meaning (baatin) of tanzil (quran). All tawil/baatin must have its source in the Quran.

O ya!!!

3/4 Anglo and 1/4 Indo-Persian can know Tawee just bacause murids eat up in this Zahir Batini BS.

His own Murids admit that he has not led them in their Duaaaaa.And they are wondering to whom his physical children are praying.

His pronouncements are generic like fortune cookies or astrological columns in newspaper.

The taawil of namaaz is clear that all shariat of namaaz (zahiri actions) must be followed.

Aamin to that one.

Wasalaam
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A/C

I still stand by my feeling of tawil/baatin being last refuge of -----
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For Turbo, JM and Foren

Additional Interpretations of Qur’an 4.34

Read and profit.
.

.

Domestic violence in Islam

The Quran on beating wives

James M. Arlandson

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I pray devients read and understand Qur'an

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Salaam Wa Alikum

Porus,

I would like to congratulate you on an excellent and informative post. Thank you for the clarification.

I agree on the importance of recognising the distinction between the Zahir and the Batin within both our branches if Isma’ilism. To as you explain avoid “ritual bowing and prostration to the person of the Imam/Dai”.

Well done and thanks once again.

porus,

As always, I love you man. If I hadn't been loyal to my wife, I would've wanted to sleep with you and then, as per the Ismaili interpretation of the wahabi interpretation of 4:24, beaten the crap out of you.

Love you man. Wishes and kisses.

I think it is ayah 4:34 and not 4:24.

jawanmardan, accountability

You should learn from today's postings by our resident wahhabi bigots not to engage in any debate concerning taawil/baatin with them.

3/4 Anglo and 1/4 Indo-Persian can know Tawee just bacause murids eat up in this Zahir Batini BS.

It is irrelevant to myself whether the Imam is English, Ethiopian, or Chinese, under Jafferite Madhab, the Imam receives divine inspiration in deciphering the Zahir. And from a practical viewpoint the Imam was tutored in theology, cosmogony, theodicy, ontology, and history; during his childhood by our most eminent scholars. He then went on do complete a degree in Islamic History at Harvard.

His own Murids admit that he has not led them in their Duaaaaa.

The Dua is just that, a Dua, and is focussed on a primal and intellectual yearning for the beloved, gaining gnosis, and unification through the guidance of the Imam; so it would really make no sense for the Imam to lead the Dua on a theological or practical viewpoint.

His pronouncements are generic like fortune cookies or astrological columns in newspaper.

To an outsider perhaps, for us there is deep significance to the Imams pronouncements, which have created a very strong, unified and fraternal community.

Almost 3 years ago I suffered a skiing accident in Switzerland and an Isma’ili consultant accompanied when I met with the surgeon, she asked the right questions on my behalf, and explained and translated for me through to my operation, I was brought food, and even offered a place to stay.

Isma’ili Doctors, lawyers, businessmen and other do this often there was noting unusual about what help I received. This is a wonderful example of Batini Zakat, of giving of ones time, and knowledge.

I have so many friends, who volunteer their time not just to run internal community institutions, but who volunteer at food kitchens, and donate blood, far more than the national average.

I work with a charity helping disadvantaged youth from ethnic minorities break into the media industry. My girlfriend is amazing she’s reading her MA, has a gruelling job in public health research analysis, and suffers from severe diabetes yet still tutors at a homeless shelter, and acts as a consultant to diabetic charity.

The Imams words are grounded in deep spiritual love, and compassion for humanity and in the embrace of Islam and its historical values.

Domestic violence in Islam

The Quran on beating wives

James M. Arlandson

The link you posted was from a Christian fundamentalist site and actually accuses Islam as a faith that condones domestic violence, and insinuates the founder of our faith was a paedophile; so I am lost as to why you would post it.

In any case since so many Muslims, including some members on this board believe the Qu’ran advocates wife beating, and other unaccepatle beliefs, and since Isma’ili are not interested in converting you to our tariqah; why is it you spend so much time attacking us. The mind boggles.

Originally posted by porus:
jawanmardan, accountability

You should learn from today's postings by our resident wahhabi bigots not to engage in any debate concerning taawil/baatin with them.

Brother I fear you are right, I am a little tired today from work, so perhaps I was foolish for responding.

I should have responded in Norweigion, as I've noticed my English deteriorates when I am sleepy: )

Salaam brother.

porus,

Everything I said today was pure Zahir. No Baatin at all. My love for you is as zahir as it can get. Love you man.

Lots of love and respect and kisses too.

Don't worry jawanmardan, I love you too man. I will give my blood for you man. Yesterday I met this man on the street and he was hungry and I fed him, then the day before that, I helped this old man cross the road, then before that I helped this old lady find her glasses, then the day before that I helped a cat find a home, then last year I was working late and helped the janitor clean the toilet. OOhhh man, the amount of good work that I do is soooo good man. I love myself man.

Love and respect to all of you.

A few years ago, I fell off a camel while participating in the annual camel racing competition in Saudi Arabia. Prince Bandar himself accompanied me to the hospital on his camel chariot. While in the hospital, I was attended to by the same wahabi doctors that attend to other wahabis. The treatment they gave me was phenomenal. I got halaal food 7 times a day and an unlimited supply of dates to top it. They even gave me a free supply of oil for a year but since I only owned a bicycle back then I donated the oil to the local charity.

On a serious side note, for the last couple of days I was trying to make the point that Aga Khan is not the Amirul Mumineen. He is not the "Hazar Imam" appointed by Allah. It hence becomes apparent that his taawil/baatin is simply a figment of his imagination and not explicit communication from Allah. It doesn't matter how much charity he does and how many hospitals he runs. He does not have the authority to make modifications to the shariat. If he does then he is committing a grave sin and he is leading his followers to hell.

porous: if you can ignore others, anajmi and MF.

you are really helpful in understanding our belief. I was straying a bit, again i need your help.

There was a dispute during the time of 47h dai (pleas forgive me if i am wrong), that the nass was not done properly. which resulted in factions in our community. Now if those disputing the nass were correct, then present incumbent and his administration holds no legitimacy. and if this is the case, then we are not following the righteous one.

a time has gone by, and now we would not be able to ascertain the real person. that means that dawat has ended for us. my question is: if my hyopthesis is correct, and if i still want to believe in ismailism ( dawoodi bohras ismailism), then what should i do.

accty,

Imagine your condition, you need a self proclaimed disbeliever to help you understand your own beliefs because you are straying a bit!! No wonder the Dais and the Hazar Imams can take people like you for a ride.

Originally posted by Muslim First:
For Turbo, JM and Foren

Additional Interpretations of Qur’an 4.34

Read and profit.
.

". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (4:34)

so what does "lightly" refer to here? divorce her "lightly??