Dawoodi Bohra Forum

As to my knowledge when this so called election was conducted the first person to give bayat was Hazrat Umer.He took out his sword and said we give bayat to Hazrat Abu Baker.Most of the people in the room were old and did not want to challenge the younger Hazrat Umer.They just went along to save their own neck.

As far as Moula Ali is concerned why should he wait for someone to nominate him.Mun qunto Moula fe Haza Ali un moula.He got the nomination,no other person would carry the same weight.

There is no such thing as election in religion.Allah appointed every nabi and rasul.The responsibility went to the person in powerto ordain the next person.

salams

Dear Anajmi: I think your overzealousness is quite amusing. You seem not to read carefully. I did not say Aisha plotted against Hussain and his family. Please read more carefully. If you did you will find that I was responding to Muslim First's two points about the battle of Jamal and of the incident of Karbala. Do you read the Quranic translations and tafsirs and hadiths with the same carelessness? I wonder if a basic lack of logical understanding explains much of what you say on this board? Honestly, I think if you feel your knowledge is perfect and complete then you are wasting your and others time on this board. Maybe it is time to find another way to kill your time?

Labeling something or a group of people you do not agree with as "stupid" may sound quite funny, you may even feel smug and pleased with yourself, but it is ultimately futile. That is not the way to increase understanding. Of course, your aim may be sow trouble, i.e. fitna, as Muslim First once felt he was doing, rather than come to some understanding at all. And you talk big about unity of the "ummah". Remember all the verses you quoted on hypocrisy.

kalim

Obviously the title of "mother of believers" does not apply to such individuals and so they do not deserve the same respect as say Maulatena Khadija. In fact, they deserve the greatest condemnation for daring to stand against Ali or for plotting the murder of Hussain and his family.

If you want me to read carefully, make sure you write carefully. You said exactly what I said you did and I have posted it up there for others to read. You are no different than the other Ismailis that I have encountered on this board.

Would a scientist actually deny the truth that is right in front of him?

Besides, what makes you think Hazrat Ali was right and Hazrat Ayesha wrong? You don't believe that Ali was the khalifa of Allah do you? In fact you believe that the prophet Muhammed (saw) has been responsible for fooling humans for the last 1400 years, don't you? Why does the death of Hazrat Hassan and Hussein suddenly become important to you if not for the sake of fitna?

accty,

Yours and others unneccessarily emphasise on performance of rituals, which have little social bearing on its performance. I am not advocating to abondon the ritualistic performances, but they should not be and can not be the basis of any religion.

You said salaah, roza, zakat, hajj are not neccessary. You said they are not the basis of religion. Every one of those ayahs proves you wrong. In fact there are hundreds of other ayahs in the quran that prove you wrong. Best is, they didn't even have to be my personal translation.

kalim,

Although I do believe you when you say that you didn't say that Hazrat Ayesha plotted the murder of Hazrat Hassan or Hussein. You aren't that stupid. However, your intentions to put similar blames on Hazrat Ayesha as those who plotted the murder of Hazrat Hassan and Hussein is abhorring.

Fortunately for you, according to the quran, she is the mother only of the believers.

accty,

Read this ayah carefully

007.156
YUSUFALI: "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

Br. AC

You seems to not notice Ayas I posted. here is partial repost

41 from the culprits:

42 "What brought you into hell?".

43 They will answer: "We did not use to offer the Salah (prayers),

44 we did not use to feed the poor,

So here it is clear this culprits are in hell bacause they did not Pray and did not give Zakat.

If I am reading you right you want to see a pasage in wich Allah says Pray or I will throw you in Hell. Is that you want?

Wasalaam
.

Yes. You got it right. I want to see that. If there isn't, then my point is proven. That it is suggestive, and not compulsive.

For example, it is suggested, that you do charity, if you dont, you wont be sent to hell. It is suggested that you free the slave, if you dont, you wont be sent to hell. It is suggested, that you should pray, if you dont, you wont be sent to hell.

The whole message of religion is lost in observance of ritualistic performances. There are ways to remember god, other than praying and fasting and performing hajj. You may remember god, by researching, trying to find cure for diseases, as you may seek god's help in doing so. You can also pray, remember god, you can also reseach and remember god.

No body discusses the soul of the prayer, or the interpretation of prayer in broader vision. What is a prayer, is it just standing, bowing and standing again.

Hajjaj bin yousuf, Yazid bin muavikyah, marwan bin abdul malik, they all used to pray, fast and perform hajjah. Would any one suggest, because they prayed, so they will go to heaven. And if the answer is otherwise, then why, they prayed, fasted, observed rituals, so why not send them to heaven. Aurangzeb was "stauch" muslim, he prayed, fasted, etc. but he imprisoned his father, he killed his brother, he maimed his subjects, he destroyed mughal empire. he was cruel, brutal and cunning. But he should go to heaven, becasue he prayed, and fasted.

Account.

I think the bone of contention between you and MF + ANAJMI is :

Whether Amal Saleha (good deeds), haq (rightousness) and sabar (patience) are better or Salah (namaz), Saum (roza) and hajj are better.

I guess.

Account.

In that sense surra asar stresses on both.

accty,

What you asked for has been posted very clearly. But you probably go to sleep before reading an ayah completely. You might want to try to stay awake while reading the quran and then you will know what it is saying.

In that sense all the names which you mentioned are (Inn al insaan la fi khusreen),they are the losers, for they might have IMAAN on Allah but no AMAL SALEHA, no HAQ, no SABAR.

All the four qualities are needed for not to be KHASERREEN(losers).

As far as the people that you mentioned, who knows, may be they asked for forgivenessa and Allah may forgive them because they prayed and fasted. That is what Allah says in the quran. How do you know that their prayers and fasting won't help them?

As far as being suggestive and not compulsive, please, apply this argument in the English lecture of the local high school. It is the quran that we are talking about and the commands of Allah. If you think they are not neccessary to be obeyed, then you are doomed, unless you pray and ask for forgiveness.

Professor: you are right. good deeds, honesty, steadfastness should be the essence of relgion.
surah asr rightly distinguishes it. but you need the vision to understand it.

Anajmi is the typical example of muslim delima, like our jamat and leaders. I donot understand, why did he leave the group, who cherishes his vision so much.

what is his vision of humanity. YOusuf ali and co.

Professor: your learned opinion.

accty,

I am not in a dilemma. I am pretty clear about what the quran says and do not try to spin the words of Allah. They are what they are. Take them or leave them at your own risk. Apparently those who are asleep won't realize the risk unless it is too late.

Remember Hinda? She was Abu Sufiyans wife, who molested Hazrat Hamza's body after he died. She was forgiven by the prophet. So was Khalid bin Al-Waleed who killed a lot of muslims but was forgiven when he became a muslims and lead muslim armies into battle.

And yes I agree with what Surah Asr says and I also agree with what the rest of the quran says which is also pretty clear.

You however have chosen to follow that which is easy and based only on intention and have decided to reject everything based on action. You will be amongst the loosers or amongst the lowest grade muslims.

The prophet says in hadith that even those with an atom's worth of Imaan will get a lot more in heaven than on earth. Who knows, may be you will qualify, inshaallah.

anajmi: I always ask for his forgiveness after each prayer.

My contention is, peace and tranquility will only prevail on earth, if, we human start analyzing our selves, we, who are the best creation of god, the best of which he could concieve, laqd khalaq nal insana fi ahsanu taqveem.

we human as his vices, should take control of the destiny, by trying to reach to him. He wants us to prove, that we are worth it. we are worth his creation.

I dont know, whether you have read old testament, if you read, you will find, that ninty five percent is so similar to quran, and if you ever read torah, which is part of the testament, also narrates the same legends.

rasulilah's islam was reshaped soon after the his demise. its benovelence and kindness was replaced by imperialistic desire and greed.

Anajmi,

People like Hind bint Uteba, Umar, Khalid bin Waleed, Abu Sufyan, Muawia, Yazeed can be forgiven.

Then what is the problem with shias? History is full of their crimes.

We shias are not criminals like them.

You point is ? Muslim armies are a joke, have not won a battle and are unlikely to do so, in our lifetime. When they unite, they get their butts kicked in even worse, and the Palestinians have to pay the price. Just see the shrinking map of Palestine; by the time you gurls are done fighting the map will look like Swiss Cheese.

I would say, bring back Khalid bin Al-Waleed, legend says that he had a mean sword and a camel that could outlast the Israelis

History is evident that we shias were always persecuted. Banu Ummayya and their cronies always were blood thirsty for shias and yet they will be forgiven. Strange!!!!!!

If that is true, then Islamic Allah helps the tyrants and not the innocents. Mazallah. Mazallah.

Now I understant why people in west say that Islamic Allah is cruel. People who glorify Khalid bin Waleed, Umar, Hind, Muawia, Yazeed will definitely help them to strenthen their belief.

We follow innocent ahlul bait then wrong.
They follow the tyrants then right.

Our hands do matam then wrong.
Their hands killed thousands of innocents then right.

Imam Hussain fought Yazeed then wrong.
Muawia revolted Moula Ali then right.

STRANGE!!!!!!!!!

accty,

I am certain you have no idea what the quran says and then on top of that you talk about the old testament!! You certain you are awake? And yes I have read the old testament and quite a bit of it is similar to the quran because it is from the same source, or didn't you know that??

And why do you ask for forgiveness after each prayer? Didn't you just say that it was not necessary to pray?

By the way, I showed you a lot of ayahs where Allah commands the believers to pray regularly, now I want you to show me just one ayah in the quran where Allah say that it is not neccessary to pray. I repeat, just one ayah.

professor,

Now you are sounding like a 4 year old crying because someone took his candy.

Anajami,

Because tyrant like you snatched it away from a 4 year old. Followers of tyrants will be tyrants only.

You are good at mental assasination.

Bye.

All the best to all of you.

.
Br. AC

Here is clincher;

Very begining of Qur'an, immediately after Al-Fateha.

Surah Al-Baqrah

2 This is the Book (Qur'an); in it is guidance sure without doubt to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and rightous personwho fear Allh much (abstain from all kind of sins and evil deeds He has forbidden) and love Allah much (performs all kind of good deeds which He has ordainde0] .

3 Who believe in the Unseen are performs As-Salat (iqamat-as-Salat) and spend out of what We have provided for them ( Zakat ) .

4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee (Muhammad SAW) and sent before thy time and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

5 They are on (true) guidance from their Lord and it is these who will prosper.

6 As to those who reject Faith it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

****
Iqamat-as-Salat : The performance of Salat. It means that:

a) Every Muslim, male or female, is oblidged to offer his Salat regularly, Five times a day at specified times; the male in a mosque, in congregation and female at home. The chief (of family, town or tribe) and a Muslim rulers of a country are held responsible before Allah in case of non-fulfillment of this obligation by the Muslims under their Authority.

b) One must offer the Salat as the Prophet SAW used to offer them, with all their rules and regulations, that is standing, bowing, prostrating and sitting as He SAW has said: "Offer your Salat the way you see me offering them" (Shahih Bukhari 1:604, 9:352).

Case closed.

Wasalaam
.

Brother MF

Every Muslim, male or female, is oblidged to offer his Salat regularly, Five times a day at specified times; the male in a mosque, in congregation and female at home. The chief (of family, town or tribe) and a Muslim rulers of a country are held responsible before Allah in case of non-fulfillment of this obligation by the Muslims under their Authority.

Where did you come by this, or what is the basis of this assumption.

One must offer the Salat as the Prophet SAW used to offer them, with all their rules and regulations, that is standing, bowing, prostrating and sitting as He SAW has said: "Offer your Salat the way you see me offering them" (Shahih Bukhari 1:604, 9:352).

If i dont believe in shahih bukhari. Then.

.
Br. AC
Here we go in Circles
Salah is Qur'anic command.
I do not have to show you again.

Even Shias believe there are 5 prayers and prayers contain "standing, bowing, prostrating and sitting".

Even Late Imam Khomani issued FATWA regarding praying on 5 separate times.

Please brother. If you believe that any prayer will do and that is Islam then Good luck to Islam. It will be just like Modern day Judism or Christinity. Everything goes.

Wasalaam
.

accty,

Can you show me one ayah in the quran where it says that it is ok if you do not pray. Just one ayah.

Also show me where you found out that the wife of the prophet married after he died.