Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Doctor wrote:

murtaza2152 wrote:These are some Aayats on Sajada in Holy Quran :::

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 41 Surah Fusselat verse 37:

Do not do ‘sajdah’ to the sun and the moon, but do ‘sajdah’ to Allah, Who created them, if you really are indeed His worshippers.

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 13 Surah Raad verse 15:

For it is Allah Alone before whom everything in the heavens and the earth do ‘sajdah’ willingly or un-willingly. Even the shadows of all things do ‘sajdah’ to Allah in the morning and evening!

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 16 Surah Nahl verse 48-50:

And don’t they observe anything created by Allah: how it casts its shadow right and left, doing its ‘sajdah’ to Allah Alone? Thus do all things express their humility to Allah. All the animate creation in the heavens and the earth and all the angels do ‘sajdah’ in adoration to Allah Alone. They do not show any arrogance at all, and fear their Lord, Who is above them, and do whatever they are bidden by Allah.

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 39 Surah Zumur verse 2:

So worship Allah Alone, making your religion His exclusively. Beware! Religion is the exclusive Right of Allah

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 22 Surah Hajj verse 77:

O you who believe, do ‘rukoo’ and ‘sajdah’ to Allah Alone, worship Allah Alone, and do righteous deeds. It may be that you attain true success.



From this Aayats ,,, Nowhere in Quran Sajada of Respect has been banned or branded as Haraam or Shirk.
which Syedna Qazi Noman talked in Himma ...

Murtaza bhai,

In the photo above, Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab is accepting sajda of the type meant only for Allah. So, Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab is guilty to act against all the Quran aayat that you mentioned in your above quote.

murtaza2152 wrote: Bro i have said many times Sajada to Imam/Dai is not same as Sajada to Allah Subhanahu , As stated in Himma it is Taziman Taqriban.......,,
It is for Thankfulness of Allah as Sajada Tus Shukr ....?

porus wrote:

murtaza2152 wrote: Bro i have said many times Sajada to Imam/Dai is not same as Sajada to Allah Subhanahu , As stated in Himma it is Taziman Taqriban.......,,
It is for Thankfulness of Allah as Sajada Tus Shukr ....?

Kitab al-Himma does not state that sajda to Imam/Dai is 'Taziman Taqriban' (sic).

In the passage from al-Himma that you posted, it is clearly stated that Rasulullah has forbidden sajda to him.

It is extremely mischievous to say that because sajadat at-ta’azeem to Sayedna is not expressly forbidden then it is allowed. This is like saying that nowhere in the Quran is sajda to Shiva prohibited, therefore it is allowed. One must understand the Quran as a whole which is fundamentally about Tawheed.

In the shariat that Muhammad has conveyed to Muslims, Sajda is done only to Allah and no one else for one reason, and for one reason alone. It is done to obey His command for his worshippers to perform sajda only to Him.

Sajda is a very specific action to be performed facing the Kaaba, with positions of forehead, nose, hands and knees clearly prescribed. When one comes across an ayat in the Quran where sajda is indicated, one performs that type of sajda in obedience to Allah's command.

Sajda is not done to anything that is created. It is only for the Creator. There are no different categories of sajda.

Let us separate prescriptive role of the Quran from its role as a legendary and historical document. Prescriptions are for the current Shariat, Shariat of Muhammad. History relates to pre-Islamic shariats and applies to earlier peoples.

Prescriptive:

Allah states in the Quran that sajda is only for Allah. And we have the example of the Prophet who forbade sajda to him.

Historical:

Let us now briefly look at three examples of Quran’s legendary and historical treatment of sajda.

Sajda to Adam

Allah does not say that he commanded angels to do sajda to Adam for any specific reason such as ‘Adam had more knowledge than angels’ etc. The whole thrust of this Quranic episode is to demonstrate Allah’s insistence that He must be obeyed absolutely and without question, which Iblis failed to do. Any suggestion that Allah’s light, whatever that may be, is in specific parts of his creation and that these parts are worthy of sajda is rejected outright in many ayats in the Quran.

Sajda to Yusuf

Yaqub was a Nabi himself, and he was the father of Yusuf. Why would Allah describe a father, a Nabi no less, doing sajda to his son? The fact is that sajda was not to Yusuf and it was not because Yaqub was commanded to perform it. In ayat 12:100, the words used are”kharru lahu sujjadan”. Asad, in his translation of the Quran, points out that the pronoun ‘hu’ in ‘lahu’ refers to Allah. It is inconceivable that Yusuf would allow his father to do sajda to him. In every other ayat (17:107, 19:58 and 32:15) where the phrase ‘kharru sujjadan’ is used, it is meant explicitly ‘sajda to Allah’. Important point to note is that these ayats are prescriptive for Muslims following Muhammad whereas 12:100 is history.

Sajda to the Sun

In ayat 27:24, the bird Hoopoe describes to Nabi Sulayman the sun-worshipping ways of the followers of the Queen of Sheba. It is instructive to read the sura. Hoopoe said that they performed sajda to the Sun and not to Allah because Satan had led them astray.

Clearly, if someone read the ayat in isolation, he would wrongly conclude that because Quran shows that Queen of Sheba and her followers performed sajda to the sun, then it is allowed. That is the sort of arguments that some who want to disobey Allah advance in their justification of sajda to Sayedna.

Finally, ‘haram’ is what Allah forbids. Of all activities that are forbidden, the worst is ‘shirk’. Shirk is not simply associating partner with Allah, bad as it is, but also sharing activities that are solely for Allah, like sajda, with others.

In conclusion, we must distinguish between Quran as history and Quran as prescription. It is the latter that is to be followed. History reinforces prescription.

profastian wrote: You contradict yourself in a single post. First you say that "Sajda is not done to anything that is created. It is only for the Creator" and then you acknowledge that Allah allowed sajda to Adam. There are surely a million other ways "to demonstrate Allah’s insistence that He must be obeyed absolutely and without question". Why an action that he has reserved only to himself. And how do you know that Sajda to Adam was not because "he had more knowledge". Is it anywhere mentioned in the Quran? Sadja to Adam is surely a precedent set by Allah, which allows sajda to creations.

porus wrote:

profastian wrote: You contradict yourself in a single post. First you say that "Sajda is not done to anything that is created. It is only for the Creator" and then you acknowledge that Allah allowed sajda to Adam. There are surely a million other ways "to demonstrate Allah’s insistence that He must be obeyed absolutely and without question". Why an action that he has reserved only to himself. And how do you know that Sajda to Adam was not because "he had more knowledge". Is it anywhere mentioned in the Quran? Sadja to Adam is surely a precedent set by Allah, which allows sajda to creations.

No. Allah did not 'allow' sajda to Adam. He commanded it. It is a description of the myth of 'creation of man'.

Does Allah give a reason why angels must perform sajda to Adam? No. If anyone has an answer, it is simply a speculation. But Allah does state that it is for the disobedience to His command that Satan was cast out. And it was disobedience of Allah that led to Adam's fall.

My argument is that legend and history are for teaching. Muslims must follow Shariat of Muhammad which neither the angels, nor Satan nor Adam nor generations previous to Islam were privy to, nor were they required to follow it.

BooM wrote: Sajda to the Dai, is it only performed in this life or do you Abdes plan to continue with this ritual, also in heaven ??

Sajda to Yusuf

Yaqub was a Nabi himself, and he was the father of Yusuf. Why would Allah describe a father, a Nabi no less, doing sajda to his son? The fact is that sajda was not to Yusuf and it was not because Yaqub was commanded to perform it. In ayat 12:100, the words used are”kharru lahu sujjadan”. Asad, in his translation of the Quran, points out that the pronoun ‘hu’ in ‘lahu’ refers to Allah. It is inconceivable that Yusuf would allow his father to do sajda to him. In every other ayat (17:107, 19:58 and 32:15) where the phrase ‘kharru sujjadan’ is used, it is meant explicitly ‘sajda to Allah’.

another example is Nabbi Issa (AS) tasted wine in his days so will you all start drinking wine and alcohol now.

Many like you have come and gone. Soon, you will find that the blinkers that blind you are too overpowering for you to subject your non-Muslim beliefs to full glare of the logic the Quran and its mesaage of Tawheed. And, like the rest, you too will disappear from this message board into oblivion.

Yes, I may not answer tomorrow. Maybe due to other commitments or priorities (let me guess, you going to blow this out of proportion too?). Or maybe I'll just get tired of talking to incompetent, beating around the bush, diverting from the topic people like you, so it maybe a waste of my time.
I agree with the quote by George Bernard Shaw.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

Enjoy my time with you

Adam wrote:What was haram then is haram now. All the prophets follow the same religion, and worship the same Allah.

seeker110 wrote:Boom wrote
"And even if you perform sajda to the Dai in paradise, how will Allah manage to differentiate between the two Sajda??
If you have an envelope in your hand after the Sajda,then it was meant for the Dai.

labbaikyaHussain wrote:

seeker110 wrote:Boom wrote
"And even if you perform sajda to the Dai in paradise, how will Allah manage to differentiate between the two Sajda??
If you have an envelope in your hand after the Sajda,then it was meant for the Dai.

hahahaha u literally made me ROFL so funny

porus wrote:Here is a conversation between God and Adam. No, not Adam, the prophet, but the self-styled jurist who recently sprouted here on this forum. I shall refer to him as AdamJ.

AdamJ: God, I am grateful to you and thank you for your Dai Burhanuddin to whom we perform sajda as you have ordered us to do.

God: Actually, I have prohibited you from performing sajda to anyone except me.

AdamJ: No, you have not. Did you not command angels to perform sajda in heaven to my namesake, Adam, whom you later expelled from heaven and made him a Prophet?

God: That was a command to angels, not to humans. It was to demonstrate to humans that they all, like the angels, know only what I have taught them and that they must demonstrate humility by carrying out my commands without question. You must be clear that my point in the story is to relate events as they happened. For my commands to you, you must look into the ayats in my book which are addressed specifically and unambiguously to human beings.

AdamJ: But your Dai, our leader Burhannuddin, allows us to do sajda to him and to his children. And he is in the direct line of leaders you have sent us to follow. You said yourself in your book in Surat ar-Ra’ad, ayat 7, that for every qawm, there is a guide. And Burhanuddin is our guide today.

God: Please read that ayat again. It refers to my beloved messenger Muhammad. He is the one who is the guide for every qawm. I have sent you clear instructions through my book and through my messenger, Muhammad, that you are to perform sajda only to me.

AdamJ: THat is not true. You have clearly established a legal precedent for us to follow in angels performing sujood to a human being out of ta’azeem.

God: It is not a legal precedent or any other precedent for humans at all. Let me give you a hint. During that event, Adam was not fully human. He became a human only after he was driven out of Paradise for disobeying me and it was not because he refused to perform sajda to any other human being.

AdamJ: I think, God, that you are getting out of your depth here. Did you not say that Yaqub, his wife and his children, did sujood to Yusuf?

God: That was not an intentional sujood but spontaneous falling into sujood through shame and humility. And sujood was for me.

AdamJ: You are surely joking, God! Did you not explain that them performing sujood to Yusuf was the ta’weel behind Yusuf’s dream that the sun, the moon and eleven stars did sujood to him.

God: Ta’aweel is known only to me and I have related its meaning clearly in my book only when it is required. Sajda that humans perform are those that have been taught to you by my beloved Muhammad. You cannot imagine the manner in which the sun would perform any sajda to Yusuf or anyone. Yusuf was relating a prophecy that his parents and brothers would be humbled before me, that is God. Yusuf was happy abiding with me and he did not possess the weakness of humans for self-aggrandizement to demonstrate to anyone that he was equal with me and that sujood was due to him.

AdamJ: I am sorry you do not understand. You have set a legal precedent for performing sajda to humans in both Adam’s and Yusuf’s case. And since your Dai allows it, it is clear that you are either feigning ignorance or deliberately leading me astray.

God: You should try to listen to me, which you have clearly not been doing in this conversation. What is legal is what I clearly say is allowed and what is not legal is what I clearly say is not allowed. I have clearly not allowed sajda to human beings. You must read the Quran to find the relevant ayat.

For those matters that are not clear, I have sent guidance. Your own great jurist Qadi Numan, in his book Kitan al-Himma, relates how my beloved Muhammad forbade anyone to do sajda to him. That merely reinforces my command. But, do not look for ta’aweel in ambiguous verses, unless they reinforce my clear verses. I have explained ta’aweel when required in my book.

Take for example Musa’s encounter with our servant as related in Surat al-Kahf. Our servant killed a boy because he was privy to the ta’aweel, which we have made clear in the Sura. That is not a precedent for you to kill anyone even if you ‘believe’ that that someone may do something ‘evil’. You would then become like the United States whose foreign policy is Firaunic and I do not like it one bit.

AdamJ: God, I have heard you and decided that it is time for you to retire. You are now very old. How old are you? Several billion trillion quadrillion years? Looks like we need a new God right here on this earth whom we now wish to follow and I believe that we have one. Good-bye.

(With apologies to Neal Donald Walsh)

sajda which is the cornerstone of Tauheed.

seeker110 wrote:Boom wrote
"And even if you perform sajda to the Dai in paradise, how will Allah manage to differentiate between the two Sajda??
If you have an envelope in your hand after the Sajda,then it was meant for the Dai.

anajmi wrote:

sajda which is the cornerstone of Tauheed.

And yet you idiots do sajda to a human. And that too out of your own free will and not because of a command of Allah. Willful idolatry while talking about tauheed!!!

profastian wrote:

anajmi wrote: And yet you idiots do sajda to a human. And that too out of your own free will and not because of a command of Allah. Willful idolatry while talking about tauheed!!!

Thats because u don't know what Tauheed is

profastian wrote: sajda which is the cornerstone of Tauheed.
:
:
Thats because u don't know what Tauheed is
Let me rephrase it. That is because the yours and our perception and definition of Tauheed is different.

porus wrote:

profastian wrote:
[17:71—Al Isra or bani Israil:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

Now every person will be called by his Imam. Meaning each person mus have just one Imam. The plural Imams is not used.

What a contortion on Tawheed Did you learn that from your sabak? By the way, it is not your Imam who will call you, it is Allah who will call you with your Imam? And Imam, with you by his side, will have his back-side firmly kicked all the way to hell, if you think tawheed refers to your Imam.

Along the lines of Al Z. I have new wordings for qul huwallahu ahad for you.

"Qul huwal Imamo ahad. Imamus samad. Da'iman walid, wa Da'iman yulid. Wa laysa li Imam kufuwan ahad, wa lam yakun li Imam kufuwan ahad."

Take to it in your daily prayer.

porus wrote:

profastian wrote:[17:71—Al Isra or bani Israil:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

Ok, so would you please enlighten us, what Imam is being referred to in the Quran. So, my interpretation is incorrect. But you cant refute the Aayat. Please enlighten us with your interpretation and what Imam is being referred?

You should take this explanation to your Amil in sabak and let us know what he said.

On that Day (of Judgment), Allah will call every people with their Imam. In your case, your Imam will be the Quran. Why? Because Quran is your furqan, and you will be judged according to the Quran and all your deeds are recorded in a book which you will be given. If you are given the book in your right hand , then you will be rewarded. If you are given the book in your left hand, you will be punished.

I will point out to you another ayat in which Quran is referred to as Imam. It is ayat 36:12. It states that Allah records all your actions as well as the effects of your actions. It also reminds you that Allah has given you the furqan, which is Quran, a complete set of criteria for your actions. The Quran in this ayat is called is called Imam Mubeen, literally, a clear and manifest Guide.

porus wrote:

profastian wrote: sajda which is the cornerstone of Tauheed.
:
:
Thats because u don't know what Tauheed is
Let me rephrase it. That is because the yours and our perception and definition of Tauheed is different.

Some of heckler's conversational nuggets:

porus wrote:

What a contortion on Tawheed Did you learn that from your sabak? By the way, it is not your Imam who will call you, it is Allah who will call you with your Imam? And Imam, with you by his side, will have his back-side firmly kicked all the way to hell, if you think tawheed refers to your Imam.

Along the lines of Al Z. I have new wordings for qul huwallahu ahad for you.

"Qul huwal Imamo ahad. Imamus samad. Da'iman walid, wa Da'iman yulid. Wa laysa li Imam kufuwan ahad, wa lam yakun li Imam kufuwan ahad."

Take to it in your daily prayer.

I will now rephrase surat al-ikhlaas for the new generation of board members:

"Qul huwa_d-da'i :aHad. da'i_S-Samad. daa:iman walid, wa da:iman yulid. wa laysa li da'i kufuwan :aHad, wa lam yakun li da'i kufuwan :aHad."

porus wrote: You should take this explanation to your Amil in sabak and let us know what he said.

On that Day (of Judgment), Allah will call every people with their Imam. In your case, your Imam will be the Quran. Why? Because Quran is your furqan, and you will be judged according to the Quran and all your deeds are recorded in a book which you will be given. If you are given the book in your right hand , then you will be rewarded. If you are given the book in your left hand, you will be punished.

I will point out to you another ayat in which Quran is referred to as Imam. It is ayat 36:12. It states that Allah records all your actions as well as the effects of your actions. It also reminds you that Allah has given you the furqan, which is Quran, a complete set of criteria for your actions. The Quran in this ayat is called is called Imam Mubeen, literally, a clear and manifest Guide.

Why did Allah command sajda to Adam?