enslavement of children by parents.

[Grayson]

I don't need you to cater to me. I just need you to stop spreading your gospel when there are many that don't want it (or can't bear to hear it). At least not under Bohras and Reform. There's no contribution to this cause whatsoever.

[anajmi]

Grayson,

I am not going to stop posting in any forum as I see fit, unless I am banned. I just got tired of this particular discussion and have decided to end my participation in it. If a person like me stops posting in Bohras and Reform, Un-Islamic Reformists and Idol worshipping abdes will have a field day.

[Grayson]

anajmi,

It's good that you contribute. Every un-idiotic view that promotes thought is worth something. Just be a little more mindful of what this movement is trying to achieve and why some of your posts are undermining it. You've caught the ire of opponents but not without reason. Address the issue instead of constantly going on about other issues that don't have to do with Progressive Dawoodi Bohras (or progression among Dawoodi Bohras). Cause we're Dawoodi Bohras. We have something we identify with and seek to fix that; not overhaul who we are based on beliefs we don't hold.

[JC]

I would hate to see bros Anajmi and Al-Zulfikar kind of fighting ...

Both are very knowlegeable and well read writers on this Forum, both have their unique style of explaining and presentation ......... there can be difference of opinion but that is the beauty of Freedom of Speech. Our aim is to bring about a better change in Bohra Community and in that process if we go few steps further I believe it should not matter. We have never questioned anything and its time to Question and if there are some fundamental errors in our belief we should seriously consider those.

[shapur]

The name and the aim of this forum will be justified and met only if it remains all-inclusive and continues to air the several shades of opinions and the ideologies( from one extreme to the other) of the different visitors which is the only way to find common ground. Its unfair to single out an individual who's been around for a decade and thinks alongside the lines of some of the stalwarts on maybe not sectarian but larger Islamic issues which ,I guess, is also an important aim and goal. I am also surprised at the silence of other seniors at this unnecessary, unwarranted,unpleasant and demoralising squabble and request everybody to say"peace", restore the mutual spaces and move on in camaraderie.

[Bohra spring]

Circuit breaker needed ...did anyone like my mini-misaq

[ghulam muhammed]

I do not think that's fair. However, if his views do nothing but continuously argue Sunni v. Shia I understand why he's not allowed to, but all the same, ask for him to be uncensored.

Why doesn't someone ask the same question to badrijanab who brings up the 1,2,3 sunni issues on practically every thread and reduces the debates to a shia/sunni conflict !! Its high time members start giving him a piece of mind and Admin takes the issue seriously and gives everyone a level playing field..

[Grayson]

You make a fair point, which is why I suggested he be uncensored even though it's tiring to constantly see Shia v. Sunni debates spill out on topics on this (Bohras and Reform) forum.
People may write what they want to, and Admin may move it to the proper forum as and if he sees fit. Others who disfavor those views are discouraged to feed the trolls and continue to flame on all sides of the argument.

I support his freedom of speech, unconditionally. Others may read or comment on it as they will, although if it's going to be constant instigation (from whoever started it) I'd suggest to let words be words and others who don't want to see them not jump into the fray with insults and stupidity galore. Simply ignore it. And whenever lengthy inevitable arguments of my Islamic beliefs vs your Islamic beliefs crop up, move it in the topic it belongs in as it no longer pertains to the reformist ideals of not identifying as the sect we are (or does it?). Not censor as much as put under a heading it belongs. I do not discourage debating on our version of Islam, I just discourage the same fights popping up under different topics.

The issue lies in matters of these discourses getting mixed up with focus on accountability. Let's not pretend these red herrings have anything to do with the mission statement, cause as I still see it, this still isn't a revolution on major aspects of faith. It's the cleansing of some beliefs, not whitewashing our foundation.

[ghulam muhammed]

ENSLAVEMENT OF CHILDREN (Bohra Children Being Used For 'Dabba Scheme) :-

1) Faiz Ul Mawaed Burhaniyah Bhiwandi Khidmat Waste Madrasa Na Farzando Everyday Hazir Thai che Ane Tiffin Taqsim Karwani Khidmat Kare Che.

2) Madrasa Mohamadiyah ZANZIBAR - Faizul Mawaed Burhaniyah Khidmat
Faizul Mawaed Burhaniyah Ni Khidmat Waste Madrasa Na Farzando Every Saturday Hazir Thai Che Ane Tiffin Taqsim Karwani Khidmat Kare Che.

3) Farzando of Saifiyah H.School doing khidmat in faiz ul mavaidul burhaniya Khargone
Location: Khargone, Khargone, M.P., India

4) Madarsa E Saifiyah Farzando summer vacation maa Faizul Mawaid E Burhaniya ni Thaali ni khidmat
Location: Mandleshwar, M.P., India

5) Farzando doing khidmat of faiz e mawaid burhani of madrasa husainiya Seoni
Location: Seoni, India

6) Faizul Mawaid Ul Burhaniya khidmat by Madresa Safiyah farzando in Jhalod
Location: Jhalod, India

7) Faiz ul Mawaid Burhainya Khidmat in Madarsa E Burhaniyah Farzando Kankroli
Location: Faiz Ul Mawaid E Burhaniya, Kankroli , Rajasthan, India

The above articles appeared in a kothar sponsored website.

[Al Zulfiqar]

let them try this out in the west and they will be arrested and prosecuted for employing child labour and exploitation!

[shapur]

It's the cleansing of some beliefs, not whitewashing our foundation.

Graybrother, You have handled the unwanted tirade superbly and lets hope its all behind us now. Well, this is just to finish it on a lighter note :
How do you whitewash the foundation which goes under the ground ??

[Grayson]

I bring the base back to the surface.

I guess it would start with identifying with who you are, and if you actually believe in your labeled identity.

Myself for example:
I am a Muslim. A Dawoodi Bohra, Taiyyebi, Mustaali, Ismaili, Shia Muslim. I believe in the chain of events that lead me to this particular sect and realize it's far from perfect on both aspects of accountability and certain beliefs and practices. I will argue based on those issues as I see, and expect argument in turn. I do not waver on my identity, I seek to rectify shortcomings on a personal level, among those close to me that I care for, and encourage debate that would spark intelligent ideas that are practical and not radical. I will be tolerant to differing views, no matter how extreme, and make whatever effort I can to think honestly and constructively. I will not feel discouraged to ask and consider hard questions, and will be mindful that my view is a representation of solely myself.
Collectively I will continue to give my input, whether people agree with it or not, in order to both receive criticism, and to allow others a different point of view that I sorely lacked a few years ago.

Everyone's had a label thrown at them on here. I think it's important we be a little more introspective in regards to what we actually believe, why we're posting on this forum (the purpose behind it), and are we actually being honest with ourselves? Sometimes it seems people cut and paste personal beliefs according to their preferences, despite it being contradictory in some of their words and possibly practices. I'm sure I've fallen victim of it myself. And often think things that are alien to the norm. But I feel rather strong in my core belief system of this faith and what problems in particular I feel the need to speak out against.

This forum has been here for over a decade; this movement for a couple more. It's high time people who are uncertain of their actual (personal) position come clean to themselves so that they don't feel threatened by the deterioration of Dawat before their eyes, and instead find ways that they can make a difference. Whether it's in their life, or in a big picture sense. And Inshallah we come together with other people of the same cause to eventually rally around a movement that resonates so wide and strong,that change won't be an option.

^That's an ideal situation that's mostly wishful thinking. But it's not an impossibility over time. I have the patience.

[ammar786]

ENSLAVEMENT OF CHILDREN (Bohra Children Being Used For 'Dabba Scheme) :-

1) Faiz Ul Mawaed Burhaniyah Bhiwandi Khidmat Waste Madrasa Na Farzando Everyday Hazir Thai che Ane Tiffin Taqsim Karwani Khidmat Kare Che.

2) Madrasa Mohamadiyah ZANZIBAR - Faizul Mawaed Burhaniyah Khidmat
Faizul Mawaed Burhaniyah Ni Khidmat Waste Madrasa Na Farzando Every Saturday Hazir Thai Che Ane Tiffin Taqsim Karwani Khidmat Kare Che.

3) Farzando of Saifiyah H.School doing khidmat in faiz ul mavaidul burhaniya Khargone
Location: Khargone, Khargone, M.P., India

4) Madarsa E Saifiyah Farzando summer vacation maa Faizul Mawaid E Burhaniya ni Thaali ni khidmat
Location: Mandleshwar, M.P., India

5) Farzando doing khidmat of faiz e mawaid burhani of madrasa husainiya Seoni
Location: Seoni, India

6) Faizul Mawaid Ul Burhaniya khidmat by Madresa Safiyah farzando in Jhalod
Location: Jhalod, India

7) Faiz ul Mawaid Burhainya Khidmat in Madarsa E Burhaniyah Farzando Kankroli
Location: Faiz Ul Mawaid E Burhaniya, Kankroli , Rajasthan, India

The above articles appeared in a kothar sponsored website.

Dear bro,
what is wrong if the children does a social work? if they go for khidmat than how can any one say that its enslavement??
it would be a act of stupidity to call it enslavement

[ammar786]

let them try this out in the west and they will be arrested and prosecuted for employing child labour and exploitation!

I guess you are quite unaware even the childrens in western countries go for khidmat. actually beta kabhi apne ghosle se bahar nikal
whole day you waste your time over here doing gibat. it would be better if you go and do some good deeds.

[wise_guy]

Dear bro,
what is wrong if the children does a social work? if they go for khidmat than how can any one say that its enslavement??
it would be a act of stupidity to call it enslavement

Dear Ammar bhai... how is delivering dabba which is paid for by the people themselves... an act of social work... In fact, the Jamaats are saving money from hiring dedicated personnel for delivering..

One more thing about the Faizul Mawaid ul Burhaniyah.. Most of the families availing of this scheme cook extra food at home because the food that comes in dabba is insufficient for the whole family.. Most people take dabba as a sign of token.. in clear words -> Formality... just because it has the name Burhaniyah in it

[ammar786]

Dear Ammar bhai... how is delivering dabba which is paid for by the people themselves... an act of social work... In fact, the Jamaats are saving money from hiring dedicated personnel for delivering..

One more thing about the Faizul Mawaid ul Burhaniyah.. Most of the families availing of this scheme cook extra food at home because the food that comes in dabba is insufficient for the whole family.. Most people take dabba as a sign of token.. in clear words -> Formality... just because it has the name Burhaniyah in it[/quote]


actually you are far away from reality because the dabba is not paid by all. many people in almost every places gets food free. so dont you think it as a social work???

[ghulam muhammed]

Dear bro,

what is wrong if the children does a social work? if they go for khidmat than how can any one say that its enslavement??

it would be a act of stupidity to call it enslavement

Bro ammar786,

Don't you think that the children can be indulged in far better social work then merely filling and delivering dabbas ?

[ammar786]

Bro ammar786,

Don't you think that the children can be indulged in far better social work then merely filling and delivering dabbas ?[/quote]


bro gm,
There is nothing like better or best in social work. We can do it in many different ways as per our wish. and if feeding the hungry people is enslavement for you people than i would i like to say that your thinking is enslaved by kinaah, hatred, etc

you people must change your opposing mentality

[wise_guy]

bro gm,
There is nothing like better or best in social work. We can do it in many different ways as per our wish. and if feeding the hungry people is enslavement for you people than i would i like to say that your thinking is enslaved by kinaah, hatred, etc

you people must change your opposing mentality

Dear Ammar bhai, haven't you heard of this saying - > 'Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime'

I don't say that Faizul Mawaid ul Burhaniya is wrong or something. I have also benefited from it previously. What people need is not just food, but education, skills, social support, professional guidance and much more. There are many bohras born in families where parents are uneducated but they are talented and capable but because of lack of guidance, they are not able to go forward. I have seen such cases and have advised them accordingly but my domain is limited. On the other hand, the jamat's domain is wider where in they can do much better things than only doing things which involve big fat salaam...

Delivering a dabba is not a very great thing, even I have done it previously and can be done with hired help (happens in US) but to go out of the way and help people and make an impact is a great thing...

[Al Zulfiqar]

I guess you are quite unaware even the childrens in western countries go for khidmat. actually beta kabhi apne ghosle se bahar nikal
whole day you waste your time over here doing gibat. it would be better if you go and do some good deeds.

ammar,

i would give you the same advice. come out of your mental cocoon and smell the air. btw, let me know where bohra kids are being used in the west to fill and deliver dabbas and i will have it stopped and the jamaat censured.

what good deeds have YOU done today? did your sajda to dai? prayed 2 rakats for his tulul umr ta qayamat? said laanat on his dushmano? uttered abuse and filth on the progressives? hogged on thaali dabba, which you get free in your slums?

[SBM]

Here is a profile of Bohra who is doing something to save environment instead of distributing Dabba and Tiffin
http://climatesummer.net/about/massachu ... rtaza-nek/

[Dazzling]

Here is a profile of Bohra who is doing something to save environment instead of distributing Dabba and Tiffin
http://climatesummer.net/about/massachu ... rtaza-nek/

there is nothing wrong to distribute dabbas and tiffin and feed humans, specially if its free of cost, but unfortunately bohra community isnt able to understand this.

[ammar786]

there is nothing wrong to distribute dabbas and tiffin and feed humans, specially if its free of cost, but unfortunately bohra community isnt able to understand this.[/quote]

bro dazzling,
This things is done by bohra only, i guess you are unable to understand

[Dazzling]

there is nothing wrong to distribute dabbas and tiffin and feed humans, specially if its free of cost, but unfortunately bohra community isnt able to understand this.

bro dazzling,
This things is done by bohra only, i guess you are unable to understand[/quote]
I am unable to understand what?

dabbas are distributed FREE? or are they charged?

[ammar786]

Dear Ammar bhai, haven't you heard of this saying - > 'Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime'

I don't say that Faizul Mawaid ul Burhaniya is wrong or something. I have also benefited from it previously. What people need is not just food, but education, skills, social support, professional guidance and much more. There are many bohras born in families where parents are uneducated but they are talented and capable but because of lack of guidance, they are not able to go forward. I have seen such cases and have advised them accordingly but my domain is limited. On the other hand, the jamat's domain is wider where in they can do much better things than only doing things which involve big fat salaam...

Delivering a dabba is not a very great thing, even I have done it previously and can be done with hired help (happens in US) but to go out of the way and help people and make an impact is a great thing...[/quote]


Actually bro may be for you it must not be a great thing but rasul ae khuda(s..a.w) said in his hadith to feed hungry people.
and the thing you are saying about education, guidance etc are totally different perspectives and even for that there are trusts going to provide facility such as amatullah aai trust, burhani upliftment trust, stmfs etc and many more. and even many camps , seminars are done at jamaat level as well as jamiyat level.

[ammar786]

bro dazzling,
This things is done by bohra only, i guess you are unable to understand[/quote]
I am unable to understand what?

dabbas are distributed FREE? or are they charged?[/quote]

Its free for those who are unable to pay

[think]

feeding not so well to do is not only done by kothar. They make a profit on it. They should use the wajebaat funds if they were honest. visit some of the restaurants at night in karachi and see the poor people with their kids lined up for free food. This is given away without any hoopla and noise. this is real charity. The tab for this cause is picked up by the well to do of karachi society.

[SBM]

Ammar Bhai
Can you provide the figures how many Bohras are being fed free of charge and how many are being charged?
Can you tell us of all those trusts you mentioned, where are they located their contact numbers and address and what kind of services they provide. This will help people who need help. Why are they not helping poor in Ahmedabad and why Khidmatguzars based in Mumbai are always posting for helping Mumineens on Yahoo Message Boards if these trust are so good and helping
Haathi key Dikhane ke Daant aur Kahne key Daant alaag hotey hein.

[ammar786]

feeding not so well to do is not only done by kothar. They make a profit on it. They should use the wajebaat funds if they were honest. visit some of the restaurants at night in karachi and see the poor people with their kids lined up for free food. This is given away without any hoopla and noise. this is real charity. The tab for this cause is picked up by the well to do of karachi society.

How can anyone justify someones charity??
how can you say that they make profit of it, its just a foollish arguement. The restaurants feed poor people but what you people do??
just keep on obstracting the one who does good deeds.
First of all feeding hungry people wasnt a great thing for you people and now that changed??
And dont teach us what to do and not.
stop gibat, hasad, kinnah etc

[ammar786]

Ammar Bhai
Can you provide the figures how many Bohras are being fed free of charge and how many are being charged?
Can you tell us of all those trusts you mentioned, where are they located their contact numbers and address and what kind of services they provide. This will help people who need help. Why are they not helping poor in Ahmedabad and why Khidmatguzars based in Mumbai are always posting for helping Mumineens on Yahoo Message Boards if these trust are so good and helping
Haathi key Dikhane ke Daant aur Kahne key Daant alaag hotey hein.

just go to amatullah manzil, behind badri mahal, fort (mumbai) and you will find evrything overthere.

and regarding figures, i would ask you to provide me name,address and contact numbers of those who are needy in ahmedabad.
reply is must dont disappear