END OF THE STORY

[Free_Spirit]

Also I am researching the early conversions. What sort of community first converted to dawoodi bohras. Were they brahmins? Would appreciate any info or names of books that can be looked up.
Many thanks

[juzerali]

You look at it very objectively.. It's not just money.. For starters, do you believe that what you earn is solely in your hands or in the hands of Allah Ta'ala? We humans always think that "apna paisa maange che". It's not our money in the first place at all.

This is exactly what someone on this forum mentioned about sweeping everything under the rug. Yes it is given by Allah, but for practical purpose of everyday affair, we should call it your money since you were the hand who received it. If it is Allah's money, let Allah decide who to give it to, what right does the Dai have to demand for himself and his luxuries.

I have been quite successful in my career too by the grace of Allah and Maula (TUS)'s dua.

You could be successful because of your talent, hard-work, ambition, luck, or any combination of these. Yes everything happens by the will of Allah, but not sure what Dai could do about it. After all he is just a human like you and me. If you think he is more, you have been mislead.

Again it all boils down to your faith. Every year, the wajebaat that has been assigned to me is always much more than the previous year, but not once in my life have I ever thought that WHY do i have to pay so much; because of this faith of mine, alhamdulillah I have been able to do the araz of my wajebaat as it was required. I believe that since I am paying this wajebaat in the "raah of Allah Ta'ala", he will definitely help me achieve that much "rozi" so that I'm able to pay that wajebaat.

You are either exceptionally talented in your job and/or also very lucky. Everyone is not. God forbid, the day you see a bad year, a year of struggle when you are struggling to make the ends meet, will or should your faith in Dai wade away? This if you will, is a very tricky question. So far you have proclaimed that you have been rewarded for your faith in Dai. So if you keep having faith you should always get rewarded. In the hypothetical situation where you are struggling, means your faith is weak somewhere. If your answer to my question is "yes", then you are basing your faith on outward success (remember Moula Ali). If you answer is "no", then by that argument, there is simply no relation between your success and Dai. This is the paradox that would haunt me if I believed in what you said. You should hope that you shall never face financial difficulty in life if your claim is true. The day you see one, redefine faith.

You might complain that your relatives are forced to pay a lot or you are forced to pay a lot. See, again it all points towards one word: "Aqidah" or faith. I follow my religion with utmost faith without any questions and therefore I have no questions.

[/quote][/quote]
I had no questions because I saw you are too deeply entrenched in the myth you call your faith to argue about it. I agree that I was very subtle in my comment which lead you to believe that I agreed with what you wrote. As an apology, I am taking time to write what I really thought, although I know you won't even consider it. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. That doesn't mean we should hate each other.

[Humsafar]

Since then different dais - including those of Indian descent - have taken over.
Here is a brief outline of the Dais and their lineage by porus. (By the way where is porus when we need the most?)
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 833#p94833

[wise_guy]

@taz52: I just have one thing to point out. If policies of Kothar/present Dawat were good enough, there wouldn't have been a split. No1 likes being on the wrong side.

[Free_Spirit]

Thank you bhai

[juzrang]

Why should you have questions with religion? Just give me a simple answer.. This is not a government that it can be tailored to your needs or a dish whose taste can be changed according to your liking. You are supposed to conform as the religion demands. If you cannot conform, then better find a different religion. This is like you coming to my house and asking me to change the color of my walls just because you don't like it.

juzrang,
I've no problem with your self-centerdness, but with the way you justify it by blind faith and unquestioning attitude. Those who claim that they have a right to your wealth are lying.

[Muslim]

Since then different dais - including those of Indian descent - have taken over.
Here is a brief outline of the Dais and their lineage by porus. (By the way where is porus when we need the most?)
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 833#p94833

According to this:
http://akhbar.mumineen.org/archive/fate ... n-english/

"Syedi Mufaddal Mola (tus) is a descendant of Imam J’afar al-Sadiq (as)" ?

Anybody know how ??

[Mkenya]

Nietzsche: Do you know what these people are about? I do not!

[taz52]

@ wise_guy
Kothars polices are for them to keep, we don't follow everyone in Kothar, their policies will not be justified, there might be policies set by NabiSaheb which would have not gone well with people, but that does not mean they will stop believing in Nabisaheb. Of course every common man has an issue, you might have experienced something, I might have experienced some bad instances with kothar but that does not make us stop believing in our Dai.

[anajmi]

Muslim,

According to the article you posted

In the Quran-e-majeed Allah says to Rasulallah (sa) that He has decreed for him ‘fateh mubeen’ – the clear victory and this ‘fateh mubeen’ is in fact the conferral of nass by the predecessor upon his heir in every age and time.

Seriously? That is like my son saying that me giving him my 401K is the same as fateh mubeen in the Quran. Just this one line is enough to use that article as toilet paper.

[AgnosticTheist]

They were Hindus at one point in time (I guess they come from Raja Bharmal and Raja Tarmal). Correct me if I am wrong.

[AgnosticTheist]

And we have a reply from SKQ -> http://fatemidawat.com/questions/

1. What about the 1388H [1968] letter in which they say Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin wrote that he was doing nass on Shz Mufaddal bhaisaheb?

Why did the shehzadas say nothing about this letter until now? Why not mention it in the first proclamation in London three years ago? And why leave it out from the lengthy 50-page “nass-nama kitaab” produced four months later, which included the alleged hospital “nass” report, as well as lots of “signs and portents”?

All three of the witnesses listed in this letter are deceased—none can testify to its authenticity.

Especially with today’s technology, it is not impossible to alter documents and recordings.

Syedna Burhanuddin’s Mazoon of 50 years is swearing an oath on the Quran that Syedna Burhanuddin did nass on him—who could be more trustworthy than the Dai and his Mazoon?

If Syedna Burhanuddin had done nass on Shehzada Mufaddal bhaisaheb in 1388H, why would he allow him to do sajda to Syedna Qutbuddin for 22 years afterward? Sajda equals ta’aat/obedience, an acknowledgement of aala maqaam.

… And why would he not inform Qutbuddin Mola? On the contrary, Syedna Burhanuddin confirmed his nass upon Syedna Qutbuddin on several occasions even after 1388 [1968].

… And why would he not inform Mufaddal bhaisaheb himself, not then, and not for the next 47 years?

In Dawat history, it has never happened that the Dai would withhold the information of nass from his most trusted person, the mansoos, even when he wanted to keep the nass secret from everyone else. And why would he? What if the shahids all died, and the mansoos himself did not know he was the mansoos?

For example, when the 49th dai Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin did nass on Syedna Abdullah Badruddin, he said to the witnesses that they should only disclose this information after he passed away, “dupatto oraawo pachi zahir karjo,” but he called his mansoos Syedna Abdullah Badruddin the next day and told him of the nass upon him.

When the rutba of Mukasir became open when Syedi Saleh bhaisaheb passed away in 1993, why did Syedna Burhanuddin appoint Shehzada Husain bhaisaheb Husamuddin to the post, and not Shehzada Mufaddal bhaisaheb?

Shaikh Ebrahim Yamani is one of the witnesses/shahids listed on the letter. All through his life, his words and actions show his knowledge of Syedna Burhanuddin’s nass on Syedna Qutbuddin, not on someone else. Both before 1388 and after, he gave extra reverence to Syedna Qutbuddin, even expressing to him his anticipation of Syedna Qutbuddin’s Dai-ship. Why would he do so if he had secret knowledge of a different nass? Moreover, he wrote many publicly recited madehs for Syedna Qutbuddin, in one of which he says, for e.g., “tamay dawat ni raha na qutub chho” normally said only of the Dai.

A historical example: In the fitnat against the 27th Dai Syedna Dawood bin Qutub-Shah, the majority of the family of the previous Dai, Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah, turned against Syedna Dawood bin Qutub-Shah, and they invited Sulayman to spearhead their fitnat. Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah’s official letter-writer (Katib) joined the fitnat na logo, and he claimed that Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah had confided to him Sulayman’s name as successor on his deathbed. The Katib also concocted a letter in Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah’s name, with Syedna’s official stamp and seal, saying that Syedna was pronouncing nass on Sulayman. Many people believed this letter was genuine and left Syedna Dawood for Sulayman; the majority of the Yemeni mumineen at that time turned Sulaymani.

Doesn't seem to be end of the story yet!

[pheonix]

And we have a reply from SKQ -> http://fatemidawat.com/questions/

1. What about the 1388H [1968] letter in which they say Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin wrote that he was doing nass on Shz Mufaddal bhaisaheb?

Why did the shehzadas say nothing about this letter until now? Why not mention it in the first proclamation in London three years ago? And why leave it out from the lengthy 50-page “nass-nama kitaab” produced four months later, which included the alleged hospital “nass” report, as well as lots of “signs and portents”?

All three of the witnesses listed in this letter are deceased—none can testify to its authenticity.

Especially with today’s technology, it is not impossible to alter documents and recordings.

Syedna Burhanuddin’s Mazoon of 50 years is swearing an oath on the Quran that Syedna Burhanuddin did nass on him—who could be more trustworthy than the Dai and his Mazoon?

If Syedna Burhanuddin had done nass on Shehzada Mufaddal bhaisaheb in 1388H, why would he allow him to do sajda to Syedna Qutbuddin for 22 years afterward? Sajda equals ta’aat/obedience, an acknowledgement of aala maqaam.

… And why would he not inform Qutbuddin Mola? On the contrary, Syedna Burhanuddin confirmed his nass upon Syedna Qutbuddin on several occasions even after 1388 [1968].

… And why would he not inform Mufaddal bhaisaheb himself, not then, and not for the next 47 years?

In Dawat history, it has never happened that the Dai would withhold the information of nass from his most trusted person, the mansoos, even when he wanted to keep the nass secret from everyone else. And why would he? What if the shahids all died, and the mansoos himself did not know he was the mansoos?

For example, when the 49th dai Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin did nass on Syedna Abdullah Badruddin, he said to the witnesses that they should only disclose this information after he passed away, “dupatto oraawo pachi zahir karjo,” but he called his mansoos Syedna Abdullah Badruddin the next day and told him of the nass upon him.

When the rutba of Mukasir became open when Syedi Saleh bhaisaheb passed away in 1993, why did Syedna Burhanuddin appoint Shehzada Husain bhaisaheb Husamuddin to the post, and not Shehzada Mufaddal bhaisaheb?

Shaikh Ebrahim Yamani is one of the witnesses/shahids listed on the letter. All through his life, his words and actions show his knowledge of Syedna Burhanuddin’s nass on Syedna Qutbuddin, not on someone else. Both before 1388 and after, he gave extra reverence to Syedna Qutbuddin, even expressing to him his anticipation of Syedna Qutbuddin’s Dai-ship. Why would he do so if he had secret knowledge of a different nass? Moreover, he wrote many publicly recited madehs for Syedna Qutbuddin, in one of which he says, for e.g., “tamay dawat ni raha na qutub chho” normally said only of the Dai.

A historical example: In the fitnat against the 27th Dai Syedna Dawood bin Qutub-Shah, the majority of the family of the previous Dai, Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah, turned against Syedna Dawood bin Qutub-Shah, and they invited Sulayman to spearhead their fitnat. Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah’s official letter-writer (Katib) joined the fitnat na logo, and he claimed that Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah had confided to him Sulayman’s name as successor on his deathbed. The Katib also concocted a letter in Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah’s name, with Syedna’s official stamp and seal, saying that Syedna was pronouncing nass on Sulayman. Many people believed this letter was genuine and left Syedna Dawood for Sulayman; the majority of the Yemeni mumineen at that time turned Sulaymani.

Doesn't seem to be end of the story yet!

Sadja to Qutbuddin. Who is he kidding. All I have seen is only his puppies/children performing sajda to him.

[anajmi]

A historical example: In the fitnat against the 27th Dai Syedna Dawood bin Qutub-Shah, the majority of the family of the previous Dai, Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah, turned against Syedna Dawood bin Qutub-Shah, and they invited Sulayman to spearhead their fitnat. Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah’s official letter-writer (Katib) joined the fitnat na logo, and he claimed that Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah had confided to him Sulayman’s name as successor on his deathbed. The Katib also concocted a letter in Syedna Dawood bin Ajab-Shah’s name, with Syedna’s official stamp and seal, saying that Syedna was pronouncing nass on Sulayman. Many people believed this letter was genuine and left Syedna Dawood for Sulayman; the majority of the Yemeni mumineen at that time turned Sulaymani.

And yet the bohras have learnt nothing!! Well, except a few.

[monginis]

when was thiss letter signed? in London or at Raudat tahera?

did they made forsenic inquiry? letter quality doesnt seems like very old?

[monginis]

why did they dragged sick SMB to raudat tahera to stage nass when muffy already had a letter?

when was it signed? who are the witnesses?

[salaar]

Hey mongonis why dont you call the scotland yard in this matter if you are so keen, your concern reminds me of a funny song BEGAANI SHAADI ABDULLAH DEWANA

[SBM]

Br Salaar
Please just answer simple question, You did agree with Juzerang about the authenticity of Nuss Letter from 1388H then why all this tamasha of Hindu verifying SMB and all these signature collections?
Please answer this simple question do not change the topic.

[salaar]

we dont need any authenticity of the nass letter neither were we waiting for the hindu declaration nor signatures has any meaning for us, it was all exhibited for dwindling souls like you who need proofs to follow your Dai, we were we are and we will, always remain faithful to our Maula what may come.

[true_bohra]

@sbm & mongy
You are very keen to know the answer...wait let me remind you that Syedna was not called for specifically perform nass in raudat tahera...even if such letter was there or not, he came there primarily to perform ziarat of Syedna Taher Saifuddim RA

Even if there was such letter then you guys think that he should not perform his nass in public. I believe till yesterday you were stuck wid Insaf's policy of having all hudood present when nass should be performed. Why such a U turn now.

Now you asked about why signatures were taken from public when such letter was already there...arent you a big fan of hindi cinema...even if you are then dnt apply that logic of simple hindi melodramatic court. KQ will not file his litigations in such kind of courts and a court never orders or pass decrees with only one such evidance when people subjected to suffer with such order are quite high in numbers. It requires all statistical figures in finalising its judgement.

And as far as hindu testifying about nass then you should visit http://www.mostbelovedson.com. It also has same kind of stories..so njoi...

[SBM]

we dont need any authenticity of the nass letter neither were we waiting for the hindu declaration nor signatures has any meaning for us, it was all exhibited for dwindling souls like you who need proofs to follow your Dai, we were we are and we will, always remain faithful to our Maula what may come.

So why did you agree with Juzerang about 1388H letter of NUSS (]we dont need any authenticity of the nass letter)
So why that Unkown Hindu man was brought in the Masjid to testify that SMB came in his dream to tell him that SMS had NUSS( neither were we waiting for the hindu declaration)
Why did they collect signatures from all the Monkey Brain Abdes? if it had no meanings(nor signatures has any meaning for us)
Fortunately all those dwindling souls for whom this was exhibited were and are Monkey Brain Abdes and followers of SMS
Atleast now you agree that you are a dwindling soul for whom this was all exhibited (it was all exhibited for dwindling souls)

[true_bohra]

Answer already given to your questions...

[SBM]

@sbm & mongy
You are very keen to know the answer...wait let me remind you that Syedna was not called for specifically perform nass in raudat tahera...even if such letter was there or not, he came there primarily to perform ziarat of Syedna Taher Saifuddim RA

Even if there was such letter then you guys think that he should not perform his nass in public. I believe till yesterday you were stuck wid Insaf's policy of having all hudood present when nass should be performed. Why such a U turn now.

Now you asked about why signatures were taken from public when such letter was already there...arent you a big fan of hindi cinema...even if you are then dnt apply that logic of simple hindi melodramatic court. KQ will not file his litigations in such kind of courts and a court never orders or pass decrees with only one such evidance when people subjected to suffer with such order are quite high in numbers. It requires all statistical figures in finalising its judgement.

And as far as hindu testifying about nass then you should visit http://www.mostbelovedson.com. It also has same kind of stories..so njoi...

OK TB
-Your Abde brother Juzerang said such letter was present and Salaar agreed with it so tell us was there a letter or not?
-I never met Br Insaf and he does not know who I am. He lives in Mumbai and I reside in USA. Kappish.Do not know anything what are you talking
-I do not watch Hindi movies
-Are you a lawyer or some one from inside of justice system who knows so much about litigation and rulings
-I do not care about what other website says. As a defender you should tell us the burden is on you.
Again Monkey Brain Abdes can not provide atleast 5 qualities in SMS and go on ranting instead of defending and explaining their previous POSTS

[SBM]

Answer already given to your questions...

Where????????????

[salaar]

hey SBM please say whatever you want to but dont disclaim this monkey brain title you know how nicely it fits you and your kind nobody deserves this title better then you, YOU MONKEY BRAIN

[SBM]

hey SBM please say whatever you want to but dont disclaim this monkey brain title you know how nicely it fits you and your kind nobody deserves this title better then you, YOU MONKEY BRAIN

did you know Monkeys are more smarter than Brain Dead Abdes.
I will stop calling you all these and become civil if you and your cohorts do a civilized debate like defending your earlier posts about the letter-Ghaiab Na Jankar and providing atleast 5 qualities Do you want to take my challenge,,,,,

[salaar]

we would settle for brain dead abdes but friend no one can snatch the title of MONKEY BRAIN frm you.

[true_bohra]

@sbm & mongy
You are very keen to know the answer...wait let me remind you that Syedna was not called for specifically perform nass in raudat tahera...even if such letter was there or not, he came there primarily to perform ziarat of Syedna Taher Saifuddim RA

Even if there was such letter then you guys think that he should not perform his nass in public. I believe till yesterday you were stuck wid Insaf's policy of having all hudood present when nass should be performed. Why such a U turn now.

Now you asked about why signatures were taken from public when such letter was already there...arent you a big fan of hindi cinema...even if you are then dnt apply that logic of simple hindi melodramatic court. KQ will not file his litigations in such kind of courts and a court never orders or pass decrees with only one such evidance when people subjected to suffer with such order are quite high in numbers. It requires all statistical figures in finalising its judgement.

And as far as hindu testifying about nass then you should visit http://www.mostbelovedson.com. It also has same kind of stories..so njoi...

OK TB
-Your Abde brother Juzerang said such letter was present and Salaar agreed with it so tell us was there a letter or not?
-I never met Br Insaf and he does not know who I am. He lives in Mumbai and I reside in USA. Kappish.Do not know anything what are you talking
-I do not watch Hindi movies
-Are you a lawyer or some one from inside of justice system who knows so much about litigation and rulings
-I do not care about what other website says. As a defender you should tell us the burden is on you.
Again Monkey Brain Abdes can not provide atleast 5 qualities in SMS and go on ranting instead of defending and explaining their previous POSTS

-yes such letter existed and there was no need to reveal it as there was no claim by KQ in 2011 when nass was confirmed. His own son has accepted that. It was revealed to authenticate whom Syedna RA has appointed.
- I never said anything on meeting Insaf. He too is member of this forum and puts his views. There is no point of bringing mumbai and USA into this.
- with the way u write things, i certainly believe you are a b grade hindi movie viewer
- have you disclosed your profession so should I confess about it.
- if you dont care about other website then why are you much bothered about
Hindu coming and confessing. And if you think I should defend Dawat then the burden lies on you too to clarify that how people are dreaming about KQ and his mojizas.
- And i have already told that i do not need to put qualities of a dai in front of Hooligans.

You call us monkey brain or whatever but the way you post things it shows you dont even have brain to understand simple posts.

[Akhtiar Wahid]

And i have already told that i do not need to put qualities of a dai in front of Hooligans.

If we are hooligans and you do not need to tell us.....than why are you wasting your time on this precious forum of dawoodi bohra debate......people are here not to listen to any non sense...they have questions.....which they need answers for. Your Moula who keeps on chanting his praises in the form of madehs and what not, you can not even take a hint and mention us few qualities of him so that we can shed light on our further debates.

[true_bohra]

@akhtiar wahid
You were the one who was tellin that i believe in Syedna Mohammed burhanuddin Ra and not in Syedna amufaddal Saifuddin TUS. So i have some questions for you as well.
- I am not here to put qualitites of Maula but to answer on the abuses you put forward to the Dai. If you believed in 52nd Dai, then cant you see how much they have abused him. Where were you at that time in refuting such abuses.
- madehs were also written for Burhanuddin Maula. You were not having any objection at that time??? I bet there were countless madehs written for him than Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin TUS.