Maatam and importance

[sallu_baba]

I would like to ask a question: What is "purjosh" mataam. i want to know the "purjosh" part of it. also would like to know any explanation on its islamic importance(liberal views welcome)

[mumineen]

Poor-Josh Maatam means:

Violent, exhuberant, emotional, orchestrated self-flagellation in harmony with Nohas,Marsiyas, or Vaaez (religious lectures)- real and/or put up; so as to evoke mass hysteria coupled with loud earth-shattering weeping, moaning, crying, lamenting, howling and grieving - rightly for Ahle-Bayt, Panjatan, Imam Hussein and his Martyrs but wrongly also for Aqa Moula and his DAD Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb as well.

[sallu_baba]

thank you for your reply. i was curious because I read a hadith from the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) that he had banned physical showing of grief.Also, i have read this one thing that to grieve over a person's death and question Allah for doing so (death) is worng as Allah has a just reason for doing so. I just would like to know if saying "ya hussain" would be a form of lament that Imam Hussain has passed away. Thank you for answering my question and sorry for bothering you

[porus]

One thing maatam is not is any display of grief. It is pure theater. I still remember tears welling in my eyes when, as a teenager, I saw Bimal Roy's Sujata. Was I grieving? Not, really.

There is a classic description of grief and its stages in mainstream Psychology. It goes like this.

Shock-Disbelief-Anger-Grief-Withdrawal-Acceptance-Return.

Grief is preceded and followed by these symptoms and are commonly observed throughout the world. Sometimes grief is overwhelming emough for a person to end it all.

So, maatam is theater. And, like theater, it is fun, really. Ask any one. Is it joy or sadness they feel? Don't ask cynics. They just are fuming inside. Hey, if you can't beat them, beat yourselves. If you see what I mean!

[JC]

Matam and on top of it 'purjosh' matam is all bullshit.........!!!!!!

Matam is haram and the type of matam these fools (i mean bohras) do is really 'theatrical'..... it is funny.

currently burhan and his chamchas has made it for him and his dad. they want to become Imam and so all this fun and drama going on.

'they beat themselves as they cannot beat others' -truly said......

they do all this purjosh stuff, then come out smilingly, jokingly and have lavish food. Talk, chat, laugh and go homes. Ask any bohra of martyrdom of Hussain and he will give that same old childish stupid story and thats it. he or she will sing the marsaya - sheemar ay guadan utaree leedee ........ rubbish.....

Ask them:
1. Why Gabriel came to Hussain? Hussain was no prophet. Even if he came, who heard them talking and noted their conversation?

2. Who noted the conversation b/w Sheemar and Imam Hussain?

3. They narrate a tale of 'birds talking' for Imam Hussain - where did this came from?

There are some basic questions which are not answered and on which the Basic Bohra Faith lies. There are NO answeres coz there is NO bohra faith. It is just Power-Hungry Mullas headed by old man burhan.

[trance]

jc p### off. you definately are a mudai, come between our group and well give yu a purjosh hammering that you will forget your family tree, lanat no tukdo.

Your envious plight will not succeed .

You faithless moron and take your army of non bohris down.

trance

[sallu_baba]

i dont mean to be disrespectful but JC has got a point. think about it, who was there to listen over their conversation.its easy to blind your eyes away from it but its true. nobody could have known what was said at the times quoted. what i feel is that by doing mataam who are disrespecting a martyr's soul.please again, i dont mean to disrespect but you have to be a little liberal,trance.thank you and Allah knows best.

[sallu_baba]

sorry i meant "you not "who"

[sallu_baba]

sorry i meant "you" not "who"

[JC]

Trance, WAKE UP

Using foul language and cursing me will not help, even beating me will not help........ take our ur anger on something else ......... OPEN ur eyes and tell me the answers ........ Mudai or no mudai ....... do u have the ANSWER ...????
Tell me ........ one could have seen the Imam sitting near the Khajoree Ka Durakht ...... but who on COUNTED the 12 Bootha Ragra .... ??!!! and it is natural that at that point in Imam must have be in between the crowd of cowards and yazidis, so no one from far would have been able to see anything (YOU all say, somebody was using Teer, Bhala, Pathar and what not) - so who saw and listened ...??!!!! who saw Imam doing the Sajda?????????

Trance - YOUR whole BELIEF lies on that and that is what ur maula is teaching u .... ur this life and life here after rests on this ........

THINK, THINK, God had given you brains . ....

[Danish]

Originally posted by JC:
Trance, WAKE UP

Using foul language and cursing me will not help, even beating me will not help........ take our ur anger on something else ......... OPEN ur eyes and tell me the answers ........ Mudai or no mudai ....... do u have the ANSWER ...????
Tell me ........ one could have seen the Imam sitting near the Khajoree Ka Durakht ...... but who on COUNTED the 12 Bootha Ragra .... ??!!! and it is natural that at that point in Imam must have be in between the crowd of cowards and yazidis, so no one from far would have been able to see anything (YOU all say, somebody was using Teer, Bhala, Pathar and what not) - so who saw and listened ...??!!!! who saw Imam doing the Sajda?????????

Trance - YOUR whole BELIEF lies on that and that is what ur maula is teaching u .... ur this life and life here after rests on this ........

The entire belief of the Arabic Religion lies on heresies, extrapolations, conjectures, etc., authentically and famously called "ahadiths or Muhammad's Sunnah" that has absolutely nothing to do with Muhammad or the imaams. These ahadiths were compiled and written many years later after the death of Muhammad by the wishy-washy individuals (Bukhari and enterprise).

[mumineen]

There were the ladies folks still alive and had witnessed the martyrdom and butchery of Imam Husein's and his brave and loyal followers. Imam Zainul Abiddin was alive and related his experiences as well.

There were the enemies themselves and historians "Raavi en Jassos" who had witnessedd the mayhem and talked or related their experiences and what they saw.

If people believe in the hostorical theories and hypothesis and perspective by "western" authors, (sometimes going as far back 5000 BC) I wonder why they they have problems and cynical and skeptical questions with eye-witness accounts of the Imam's followers or enemies and the historians present during Ashura.

[JC]

Mumin,

Ladies could not have witnessed, they were the Haram and were inside the tents.

Imam Zainul Abedien was very sick and that is the reason he could not fight (or as per your beliefs God wanted to save him for Nasl-e-Imamat) - so him being present is not possible.

Others Ravees - who were they, when did they narrate all this, how far we can believe in those people - they were Yazidis as nobody came to Imam's help at that point in time - so how can I believe in thosie cowards. I dount authenticity.

Other Jasoos - i can not but laugh. Who were these Jasoos - I absolutely can not rely on their writings and stories.

ONE more question: Which Ravee or Jasoos was told by Imam Hussain about his converstation with Gabriel who told him God's wish?

Which Ravee or Jassos was able to count 12 Butha Ragras?

BOHRA BELIEF totally rests on Karbala and Imamism, so please do not tell me about Western Historians or Western writings or why we believe or donot believe on Western authors. Do not bring that to discussion as that is totally irrelevant.

[Danish]

Originally posted by mumineen:
There were the ladies folks still alive and had witnessed the martyrdom and butchery of Imam Husein's and his brave and loyal followers. Imam Zainul Abiddin was alive and related his experiences as well.

Hmmmmm...these ladies folks must be 1500 years old by now.

It was not possible for ahaditians to have witnessed first-hand anything to do with Hussain's martyrdom nor Muhammad and his ahlebayt whatsoever. It is all nothing but heresies (he-said/she-said dogmas) and fairy tales, innovated and invented by the Bukhari and enterise. No wonder each individual (mullahs) differ vastly in narrating these stories, fabricating to the highest extent of remorse and gratitute (money making schemes), none of which is absolute truth.

There were the enemies themselves and historians "Raavi en Jassos" who had witnessedd the mayhem and talked or related their experiences and what they saw.

If people believe in the hostorical theories and hypothesis and perspective by "western" authors, (sometimes going as far back 5000 BC) I wonder why they they have problems and cynical and skeptical questions with eye-witness accounts of the Imam's followers or enemies and the historians present during Ashura.

NO ONE HAS ANY TRUTH OR EYE-WITNESS, GOING BACK A 1000 YEARS, TALK ABOUT 5000 YEARS, THAT'S SIMPLY FAR FETCHED AND HOPELESS.

[shatak]

The entire tale of Karbala has been narrated by the so-called Imam Tabari Bin Rustam, the Zoroastrian. Time and again he starts with the phrase, “ …and Abu Mukhnaf said this and Abu Mukhnaf said that… Some scholars have conducted in depth research and discovered that Abu Mukhnaf is a fictitious character. Other scholars have established that even if such a person existed in flesh and blood, he had died fifty years before Tabari was born. Tabari has not once claimed that he ever met Abu Mukhnaf. This being the state of things it becomes clear that the myth of Karbala is Tabari’s own kite flying. Some said Tabari was a Shia, others contend that he was a Sunni. In fact he had changed his name from Tabari Bin Rustam to Tabri Bin Yazeed for deceiving Muslims. All excesses on Hussain, Tabari has ascribed to Yazeed. Then why did he associate his own self to the name Yazeed? Tabari embraced this humiliation so that people should not take him for a Shia or a Zoroastrian.

The year of martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain is 61 A.H. and Tabari penned this fable down around the year 300 A.H., i.e. 239 years later. And all this on hearsay!

From the day (after 20 A.H.) that Saad Abi Waqas conquered Iran on behalf of the Second Caliph (Hadrat Umar), Iranians nurtured a passion for revenge in their minds. They could never forget that a handful of Arab squatters had dealt their mighty empire a shattering defeat. Our forefathers followed the only course that was open to them. Firstly they incited the Abbassids of Banu Hashim for devastating the Banu Umaiyya dynasty. Then they invited Hulagu Khan and did away with the Arabian Abbassid Empire too. In this way our forefathers avenged their defeat at the hands of Arabs.”

This was the revenge they took from Muslims. We have mentioned above the principal characters of the horrible drama staged by them. For revenge from Islam itself, these characters replaced the pristine Islam of the exalted Muhammad of Arabia with an Ajamite Islam. Its foundations were laid during the reign of Khalifa Haroonur Rashid and it is still straddling the Islamic world, i.e. from 170 A.H. till today,ref. Hussain Kazimzadeh.Readers, this is the same Islam, which, like Hussain Kazim Zadeh, Allama Iqbal called Ajamite Islam. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan called this the Invented Islam. I call it the NUMBER TWO ISLAM Islam like a number two, spurious medicine.

Imam Hussain as the governor of Iraq. Caliphate of the Righteous continued its majestic progress. For the first time the world was witnessing that in an empire as vast as three and a half million square miles, there could be found no one willing to receive charity. Nor a dog would die of hunger in the remotest areas. These were the exemplary blessed times when a young woman loaded with jewelry could travel alone, and had absolutely none to fear but God!

Harmuzan, who laid the conspiracy to kill Hadrat Umar, was himself killed in 23 A.H. His son Jaban Bin Harmuzan had joined his kith and kin in Koofa at a young age. This is the same Jaban Bin Hormuzan who had made an unsuccessful attempt on the life of Hadrat Hassan in 46 A.H. (Meezanul Faris). In that attack, Hadrat Hassan had received a serious injury on his thigh, but had recovered.

Hadrat Muawiya died in 60 A.H. Meetings of the Consultative Council for selection of the new caliph were going on in Damascus, Koofa and Madinah, when Jaban and his accomplices entered the governor’s house in Koofa under the cover of a dark night. They murdered the governor Hadrat Imam Hussain with a single stroke of the sword severing his head from his body. Due to lack of security measures as well as the dark of the night, Jaban and his accomplices got away with ease. According to investigations by Allama Masoodi, Jaban remained active against Hadrat Abdulla Bin Zubair during the few remaining years of his life. Eventually, he was killed while attempting on the latter's life in 70 A.H. He had assumed an Islamic name, Balal Bin Yousuf.

Please read Karbala: Fact or Fiction:

http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/karbala/

[mumineen]

Shatak, JC and Danish:

Danish: You stupidly rebut: "these ladies folks must be 1500 years old by now."

What I meant by: "There were the ladies folks still alive" was still alive after the events of Karbala'

You are the type of Jaahils oar naysayers who when they see flowers, look for funerals or vice versa.

If your arguments, theories and hypothesis are credible, then we should NOT learn ancient history at all - because they were all written or invented heresay, "heresies (he-said/she-said dogmas) and fairy tales, innovated and invented by the Bukhari and enterise.".

What about Allah Subhanahu Wat'talaa?. You shouldn't believe in the Almighty, according to your immature and childish arguments; as not one of you have seen Allah. You have only read about God from the Holy Books and "tales" narrated by the Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) and other Prophets. Your Wahaabi brethren would NOT be too pleased!!!!

[mumineen]

For those who doubt the existence of history of Karbala (or for that matter GOD) - what's the difference?:

A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as always.

He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him. They talked about so many things and various subjects. Suddenly, they touched the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say."

"Why do you say that?" asked the client.

"Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be
no suffering nor pain. I can't think of loving a God who permits all of these things."

The client stopped for a moment thinking, but he didn't want to respond as to cause an argument. The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop. Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy).

Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber, "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say they don't exist?" asked the barber. "Well I am here and I am a barber."

"No!" the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and a beard like that man who walks in the street."

"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me."

"Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

Amen!

[Emm]

Hi,

Many of you have raised objections about the authenticity of the events that took place in Karbala. I don't think all the narrations are to be taken literally at all and many of the stories and events that took place are metaphorical. I don't think it's really important to know exactly what happened and the exact sequence of events. I have the utmost respect for Imam Husain because he stood up for his beliefs and what he thought was correct and refused to bow down even when certain death faced him and the rest of his family. What I am trying to say is that rather than get caught in the nitty-gritty of the story, we need to focus on the essence.

Coming to the current state of affairs though, I have noticed a general trend in the waaz's I've attended over the years. With every passing year there seems to be a more and more graphic description of violence and the exact manner of Imam Husain's death. While I have no way to support or refute the facts, I feel it would be better for the community in general if the nobility of the sacrifice and martrydom were pointed out and highlighted rather than using the story to whip up mass hysteria, which, unfortunately is what is being done.

This purjosh maatam is a new term and like all other forms of self-flagellation it is, in my opinion, disrespecting the memory of the Imam and his sacrifice. Nowadays, of course, maatam is done on every occasion and I don't think people even know why they are doing mataam and whatever little significance it might have had in Muharram is lost.

Lastly, Trance, dude, do you know any words apart from mudai ? Have you learned to listen to other people's opinions ? It IS the 21st century and most of us live in democratic countries so 'open debate' is something you need to get used to. I won't be surprised if you genuinely believe that cursing people on this message board will get you more 'sawaab'. I pity you dude.

[mumineen]

We agree with Emm that there may be some problems with the authencity (Tahrif) of certain events in the Battle of Karabala.We recckon there was no battle, merely the butchery, massacre and artyrdom of a few tahirsty, and hungry (72) Sahabas of Imam Husein by the Yazidis - more than 10,00 of them in the sands of the desert of Karbala.

http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/ashura/

Martyr Murtada Mutahhari discusses on the site which concerns the misrepresentations (tahrifat) relating to the historic event of Karbala'. There have occurred various kinds of distortions in recounting the details of this great event. The discussion is carrfied out in Fouar Parts.

However, this does not mean that the true events did not occur, They did and that's why the the tragic evetns are lamented and mourned and kept afresh after 1400 years by the followers of Islam.

[BB]

I agree with Brother Emm and mumeen.There is no point in going into the depth of man made story about how the massacre took place but more important is their sacrifice for the community.we should focus more on that at the same time i really don't like Maatam being done in each and every function and reading shahadat of husain a.s. is become so common that it has lost the true intesity.

[JC]

So the so called Purjosh MAtam should be STOPPED and at every function the reading of so called Shahadat should be stopped. Let us remember Imam Hussain for his sacrifice, lets try to follow the path and not only that Matam will get us Janat.

I have to read all the stuff and visit the website which Shatak has referred.

We have to take into consideration the ground realities of TODAY while looking at every aspect of religion.

[hur]

To all,
The events of Karbala were recorded via Imam Zaynul Abidin and Sayyidna Zaynab binte Ali. The events were publically presented when they arrived back in Medina from Shams (Damascus).

"Purjosh Matam" is translated as intense matam with feeling and meaning. Imam Jafar Sadiq coined the saying "every day is Ashura and every place is Karbala". This is meant metaphorically to live and practice life as such. To recount the events of Karbala and the sacrifice of Imam Husayn daily in our hearts. The Imam Sadiq states in tradition that no event, whether joyous or sad, should go without recounting the events of Karbala, because they are a blessing and are barakat.

Imam Ali Ibn al-Husain(A.S) used to say: Every Mu'min, whose eyes shed tears upon the killing of Husain Ibn' Ali(A.S.) and his companions, such that the tears roll down his cheeks, Allah shall accommodate him in the elevated rooms of paradise.

Imam Muhammad Baqir (A.S.) said: He who remembers us, or in whose presence, we are remembered, and (as a result) tears flow from his eyes, even though they may be in the measure of a wing of a mosquito, Allah shall construct for him a house in paradise and make the tears a barrier between him and the fire (of hell). Al-Ghadeer, Vol.: 2, pg.: 202

Imam Jafar Sadiq (A.S.) said: He in whose presence we (and our miseries) are mentioned and, as a result, his eyes pour out tears, Allah shall make his face forbidden upon the fire of hell.
Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.: 44, Pg., 285.

Imam Jafar Sadiq (A.S.) said (to Masma', one of those who mourned over Imam Husain (A.S.)): May Allah have mercy upon your tears! Do know that you are regarded as being of those who are deeply concerned about us and of those who are happy at our happiness and aggrieved at our sorrow. Do know that you shall witness the presence of my fathers near you at the time of your death.
Wasail al-Shia'h, Vol.: 10, Pg.:397

Imam Jafar Sadiq (A.S.) said: There is none who recites poetry about Husain (A.S.) and weeps and makes others weep by means of it, except that Allah makes Paradise incumbent upon him and forgives his sins.

Imam Jafar Sadiq (A.S.) (while sitting on the prayer mat prayed for the mourners and those going for the ziarat of the Ahlul Bayt (A.S.) as follows): O' Lord, have mercy upon those eyes, which have shed tears in compassion for us; and upon those hearts, which have been restless and blistered for us; and upon those wailings, which have been for us. Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.:98, Pg.:8.

Imam Jafar Sadiq (A.S.) said: One who weeps for Imam Hussain (A.S.), surely, the Imam (A.S.) observes him and seeks forgiveness for him and requests his holy fathers to (also) seek forgiveness for him.

Imam Jafar Sadiq (A.S.) said: He whose eyes shed tears for our blood which has been shed, or for our rights which have been usurped, or for the humiliation meted out to us or to one of our Shi'ites, Allah shall accomodate him in paradise for a long time. Amali al-Shaikh al-Mufid, Pg.: 175.

[Emm]

I am sure that every account of what took place in Karbala is true to some extent and inevitably fact has gotten interleaved with some exaggerations and inaccuracies as the story was handed down through the ages.

Br. Hur has quoted several Imams on the enormity of the sacrifice of Imam Husain and all that took place in Karbala.

However, personally, it is very very hard for me to connect with a battle that took place 1400 years ago and shed genuine tears for those that lost their lives. It is indeed a sad story of suffering as it is one of superhuman courage and conviction and I really do admire any human being that would be willing to stand up for his beliefs even in the face of such adversity.

I would be much more likely to shed a genuine tear for victims of the '92 riots, Gujarat riots and bomb blast victims and I was moved to tears during a couple of scenes in Farheneit 9/11 seeing the true plight of the victims of this one-sided war.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that not shedding a tear for Imam Husain on Aashura does not make anyone less human. I have heard some of the bayaans and they say that you should make a face like you are crying even if you aren't moved to tears - that is absoloutely stupid in my opinion.

Further, Br. Hur, I don't know how much of the Purjosh Maatam being done nowadays is done with true feeling. I remember beating my chest to a bright red when I was about 10 years old and being very proud of it but I really didn't do it with true feeling for the most part I'm sure. If maatam is to be done with pure feeling, surely it shouldn't be set to the rhythm and tunes of marasyas ? Is an outward violent show of grief and despair really necessary ? I saw true maatam in Farheneit 9/11 where an Iraqi woman is shown, in tears, looking at the heavens and beating her chest, asking why her family - all civilians - had been killed. I don't think anyone in any Masjid today does maatam with anywhere that kind of genuineness and feeling.

It is being used as a tool to whip up emotions and mass hysteria. I am often genuinely scared when maatam reaches a fever pitch during Muharram. Crowds - especially in places like Bombay and Surat - are in such a frenzy that they will do anything that is asked of them at that point, blindly and without question. It is a dangerous situation and I think it's only a matter of time before something similar to the Bohra-Sunni riots take place again. I sincerely hope not, but religious fanaticism, which is what is being encouraged, will lead to disaster.

[S. Insaf]

Acording to Naseeme-Sahar & Badre-Muneer Sayedna has made Matam a Mission of his life.
Sayedna went to the extent saying that "If you have new born baby make that baby do matam because if the baby dies without doing matam you will repent all your life that the baby died without doing matam."
Can a sensible person utter such unkind words for someone's new born?

[Emm]

Br. Insaf,

I too agree that it's really silly to say such things like making the new-born do maatam. However, I think our clergy is now genuinely convinced and have convinced themselves that maatam is actually good for the community. I guess all we can do is use our own judgement in these matters.

However, it's really a pity that a vast majority of people are so brainwashed that they will actually do ANYTHING these people ask them to without a moment's hesitation and without thinking twice. It is these gullible hordes that our clever clergy is relying on to further their own ends.

[hur]

Dear Emm,
I understand your feelings regarding matam. But there are several levels of understanding involved here. First, the ritual itself is a means of connecting with the act of sacrifice for Allah...similar to salat, hajj, fasting, etc. Many orators and scholars have noted of the people in the events of Karbala, that every person today has an example in Karbala to reference in being a model mumin. This is one aspect.

Another is the honoring of Imam himself and in that honoring Allah. You used the events of 9/11 as a comparison argument, but there is very clear distinction. What was gain and understood from 9/11, gujarat riots, etc? Did the face of the world change from this one event? No. Yes simpathy and charity was given to the victims..but that's about it. In the case of the Imam, whom to a muslim is to be given a higher status of closeness than your parents, the sacrifice was a clear marker of truth from unjustice. The closest to this self-sacrifice for mankind would possibly be Gandhi or Mother Theresa...and both considered Imam Husayn an inspiration.

[Alexp78]

Isnt it mentioned in the Quran that you should not cry over anyones death for more than 3 days?

Honouring the memory of those who stand up for the truth makes sense but grieving and causing harm to ones self really need more inspection.

[Alexp78]

Hur,

9/11 will be remembered for quite a few years. trust me. Godhra? I am not sure.
However their impact on history - MOST DEFINITELY!
Afghanistan would probably still be under Taleban, and Iraq under Saddam. BJP would have probably won the election. In Spain there would be no 3/11 and probably the then incumbent would now be in power. No to mention the hundreds of people killed in the name of war after 9/11. Never underestimate the powers of events. No matter how small they are (and 9/11 is as big as it gets!)
Mathematically, even your sneeze has the power to change the future.

[JC]

Honour the Imam by Following his Teachings. See his life style, if at all you can. Remember him by good deeds........ be good to fellow human beings, be polite and humble ... stick to principles ........

Beating chests won't help, crying loudly won't either, reading Munajat, NEVER ......... Matam will not take to to Janat, Make a Janat on Earth only, if you will try to create a Janat and Janat-like-enviornment here on earth, in this world, you will automatically gain Janat.

SMALL MINDS TALK OF PEOPLE, AVERAGE MINDS TALK OF EVENTS AND GREAT MINDS TALK OF IDEAS ...!!!

[kabeer19922001]

As Moharram is round the corner, this topic needs to be revisited.

Regards