Dawoodi Bohra Forum

I am a father of two young children who are currently in madrassah run by the MS administration. It is on my wife's insistence that I had continued sending them there. My wife is a professional and we continue going to the Masjid and take misaaq with Mufaddal Saifuddin's name in it. It is all we have known all our lives so after Muqaddas Moula's wafat we went with the flow. However, having observed the behavior of the people around us for the last year, our anxiety over being counted as one of them has reached panic levels.

I would love to claim that Universaldad is an exception to the rule. Unfortunately I cannot. His disgusting mockery of a human being's disability is evident in varying but increasing degrees in many who attend masjid with us. It seems that mumineen are required not to view any person as human or deserving of their respect unless they prescribe to the narrow set of hate-filled beliefs prescribed by the MS administration. While Mufaddal Moula goes and hugs Hindu babas, in madrassah, our kids are taught intolerance and disdain for other religions. The sad outcome of this is that I see my children are slowly beginning to subscribe to this set of beliefs and over the last year, their transformation into hate-filled bigots has progressed considerably. As someone pointed out in the forum once, why are our children not taught that being a good human being is the first requirement for being a good mumin?

I am also a little disturbed by the continuous need to reach into one's wallet for every visit to the masjid. The Jumoa ni raat namaz which provided spiritual satisfaction to me for years is now corrupted by the demand for Qarzan. I have never turned away anyone who came to me directly for help but this bureaucratic intervention between me and my brothers is something I resent. It increases the probability (nay certainity!) of corruption. I am quite certain that not a penny of what I contribute makes it to a brother in need as I recently heard from a bhai that if I do not help him, he has no recourse for a loan. He said the Qarzan schemes did not benefit the truly needy. It is a sad statement on my apathy that I continue to reach into my pocket and add to the bag for the weekly qarzan collection.

Having said all this, I am not completely ready to give up my life in the community. I find that there are still a few of my brothers who are level headed and balanced. Some, whom I am still proud to call friends, still belong to this community. Others now have more in common with citizens of North Korea than they do wih me! Giving misaq to SKQ would mean that I give up all my friends.

My wife and I are in a dilemma about next steps. We have visited the Fatemi Dawat website a few times and we definitely find the content and message there to be of a far higher level than what we see and hear in the masjid. If there are others like us who share our unease, I would love to hear from them.

Giving misaq to SKQ would mean that I give up all my friends.

If your friends are like you, then maybe you all should move over at the same time. That way you get to keep your friends. I am sure, if you are feeling this way, your friends are too. And if they don't, then maybe there is something wrong with them and you need to find better friends. I would suggest you to invite your friends over and get a feeler and then lay down your proposal if you feel them having the same issues as you are.

@ObjectiveObserver, I hope you find the inner strength to do what your gut is telling you to do. I think you should connect with others in the same predicament as yourself. @UnhappyBohra is one person I can think of. Let me say though, the social integration is very overrated, once we were out of the bindings, we feel liberated and over and above that we feel the spiritual satisfaction with Syedna Qutubuddin TUS is the same as what we had experienced with Aqa Burhanuddin moula RA. Wishing you all the best!

^
Which country do you reside. The reason being if you live in West it is much more easy to assimilate with Muslim Ummah in general without worrying about who is going to perform Nikkah and who is going to bury you (the scare tactics on which SMS and his Goons thrive).

Objective Observer
I would second Anajmi's advice about exploring your community friends and taking small steps in "feeling them out" and sharing a little, and encouraging conversation. You might discover you are not alone in this.

Yes, unfortunately, our madressahs have created a divisive trend of "us" and "them", while whitewashing our children's self-esteem and self-confidence into arrogance and self-righteousness that borders on hatred. It has made us more easily prone to hate rather than love.

I have liked your message because what you wrote is very much my present situation as well. You are not alone and Inshallah you will find the true path soon.

EDIT: Please also read the testimonies on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10294

Good thoughts, Alam, Anajmi. I did bring the subject up a couple of times but I got vibes of extreme discomfort from the Kim Jong Un fans. I think I will have to try and socialize more on a one on one level and see if I can get a conversation going. @SBM, integrating into other Muslim Ummahs is not something I am comfortable with. I am proud of being a Dawoodi Bohra, was proud of calling Burhanuddin Moula my spiritual father, proud of the heritage of the duat mutlaqeen in India. It is not something I am willing to walk away from. My wife and I have discussed this and we believe that giving misaq to SKQ is probably our best option in terms of preserving our spiritual heritage. I am happy to count other muslims as my friends but I am not sure that want to start going to their masjids on a regular basis.

objectiveobserver53 wrote:Good thoughts, Alam, Anajmi. I did bring the subject up a couple of times but I got vibes of extreme discomfort from the Kim Jong Un fans. I think I will have to try and socialize more on a one on one level and see if I can get a conversation going. @SBM, integrating into other Muslim Ummahs is not something I am comfortable with. I am proud of being a Dawoodi Bohra, was proud of calling Burhanuddin Moula my spiritual father, proud of the heritage of the duat mutlaqeen in India. It is not something I am willing to walk away from. My wife and I have discussed this and we believe that giving misaq to SKQ is probably our best option in terms of preserving our spiritual heritage. I am happy to count other muslims as my friends but I am not sure that want to start going to their masjids on a regular basis.

My friend objectiveobserver53. You say that giving misaaq to S. Qutbuddin will mean loosing all your friends. I have a question to ask you: what is more important, keeping your friends, or keeping your conscience clear? Do you want to suffer silently and ruin your children's attitudes to the world, to modernity, to women, just so you can enjoy some jamaans and socializing with your friends? This is why tyrants like Dawedar Mr. Muffadul Saifuddin (DMMS) get away. People are so afraid of loosing their friends, not being invited to jamaans, to parties, that they will put up with a mad, misogynist mullah.

Please, I urge you to just leave your friends behind. Start with yourself. Don't worry about gathering your friends first, asking them what they think, and then making a decision. You alone, and no one else, not your wife, kids, friends, etc. are responsible for your religious salvation. Don't worry. Your friends will accept you, and perhaps seeing your bravery will follow on your footstep. But don't hesitate any more! Take some action, however small, to distance yourself from the rotten ideology of DMMS. You will immediately feel better and happier, more happy that when you were eating tasty jamaan with your friends. Trust me, I have done it, and never felt better!

Welcome to the club brother! I did a little happy dance when I read your post - if it is only for discovering that I am not alone. Will post more later.

Guys, wait up. Do not get too excited. We first need to consult fayyaaz and make sure what ever you guys are planning to do is legal.

anajmi wrote:Guys, wait up. Do not get too excited. We first need to consult fayyaaz and make sure what ever you guys are planning to do is legal.

and fits into which category of his.... anti muffy, anti bohra, ex mufaddali, anti kothar, or pro skq, pro shia, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

Objective Bhai, everyone of SKQ supporters has made a journey that has involved tremendous sacrifice of friends, family, income, homes, places of worship and a community they have known. One does not make these kinds of sacrifices unless the push and pull forces are working in tandem to take them in a certain direction. While I cannot claim yet that everything is just hunky dory and peachy in our lives, I can vouch that not one of us would have it any other way. In many ways we are better off but of course we miss the friends and family we left behind. It sounds like you have been a reader of the forum for a while so I will not repeat our experiences again.
Good luck with your journey and I wish that you find the courage to make the decision that is in the interest of your long term happiness. Many of us decided to go with SKQ TUS because with Mufaddal Saifuddin, we could not ask our children to believe in a person who did not command our own respect. SKQ TUS does not present that sort of a challenge. Quite the contrary.

Observer bhai, welcome on this forum. I am also in same dilemma as you are. You are little bit lucky that you are having some like minded friends with you with whom you can share and discuss the issue but in my case i dont have any like minded neither from friends nor from family.

I think the first step that can be taken is build your surroundings with like minded or with the followers of whom you want to follow. Doing so you will become comfortable and confident and when appropriate times come you can disclose your belief. The one who respect or love you will respect your decision. For the rest who leave you all i think you should not bother that as you already have some new friends with you with whom you can socialize given the fact human being are social animal .

Having said that i know this is not easy to find the like minded, believing them and change surroundings but according to me if you succeed in it you will have some sort of moral support to take next step.

This is only my personal opinion.

objectiveobserver53

Well written.

You ask if there are other concerned about the direction of our community. Answer: +1

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:objectiveobserver53

Well written.

You ask if there are other concerned about the direction of our community. Answer: +1

+2

zinger wrote:

dal-chaval-palidu wrote:objectiveobserver53

Well written.

You ask if there are other concerned about the direction of our community. Answer: +1

+2

ooops.... -999,690

OO53

Well expressed thought, specially in the context of MSB, the teaching quality is third class and divisive. Abde parents are ruining the lives of the kids. Until primary or kindergarden level it is ok, where kids are only learning simple ABC and 123 with fun games. But with growing inquisitiveness and most fertile times of their understanding, these mullahs and muallims are filling the minds of young smart kids with sense of hatred, inferiority, self doubt and restricting their ability to question. They are taught trashy self glorification of Kothari family, human worshipping practices and installing hypocritical mentality. At the same time, these kids are missing out a major part of their foundational learning to establish themselves in the secular world out there. Kothari MSB is creating batches of zombies and bigots. I am pained to see my innocent nephews and niece going through MSB drama, where every second day they are asked to bring money for this and that. Kids are made to pay wajebaat, najwa, ikraam, qarzan hasana. They are mixing the concepts of walayat, obedience, spirituality with money in such a deceptive way, that the new generation of abdes are programmed to believe in more money more sawaab theory.

Just a simple advise, take a strong stand and get your children out of MSB, put them in secular schools and take effort to teach your children deeni taalim by yourself or you can send them for private part time MSB option, make sure your children are growing up in secular environment and has friends from all faith. It your duty, power and responsibility to nurture your kids into good human beings. Take them to all kinds of faith, churches, shia, sunni, masjids, even temples not to install a sense of faith but get them familiar and teach them to co-exist with respect. Attend limited miqaats which are important, encourage debates and dialogue within your relationship of father-son-mother.

If you are really dependent on spiritual guidance and require a mortal guide/form, you can approach SKQ camp without fear, they don’t ask you to abandon your social support system. you can always keep your affiliation, allegiance a secret, moreover SKQ has made it more simpler to reach out by sharing through internet. Tolerate SMS camp as mere convenience and service provider, enjoy the benefits for which you pay. Slowly and steadily with time you will liberate yourself from your own mental clutches of dependence.

Sometimes we feel we are under microscope of the abde society, these wolves move around with suspicion and insecurity spying on your movements, actions, words, intent and thoughts. You never know who can back-stab amongst your friends and family when you express your heart and dilemma. Slow and steady distant yourself. Save yourself first and then worry about others. Family is more important than friends.

humanbeing wrote:OO53

Well expressed thought, specially in the context of MSB, the teaching quality is third class and divisive. Abde parents are ruining the lives of the kids. Until primary or kindergarden level it is ok, where kids are only learning simple ABC and 123 with fun games. But with growing inquisitiveness and most fertile times of their understanding, these mullahs and muallims are filling the minds of young smart kids with sense of hatred, inferiority, self doubt and restricting their ability to question. They are taught trashy self glorification of Kothari family, human worshipping practices and installing hypocritical mentality. At the same time, these kids are missing out a major part of their foundational learning to establish themselves in the secular world out there. Kothari MSB is creating batches of zombies and bigots. I am pained to see my innocent nephews and niece going through MSB drama, where every second day they are asked to bring money for this and that. Kids are made to pay wajebaat, najwa, ikraam, qarzan hasana. They are mixing the concepts of walayat, obedience, spirituality with money in such a deceptive way, that the new generation of abdes are programmed to believe in more money more sawaab theory.

Just a simple advise, take a strong stand and get your children out of MSB, put them in secular schools and take effort to teach your children deeni taalim by yourself or you can send them for private part time MSB option, make sure your children are growing up in secular environment and has friends from all faith. It your duty, power and responsibility to nurture your kids into good human beings. Take them to all kinds of faith, churches, shia, sunni, masjids, even temples not to install a sense of faith but get them familiar and teach them to co-exist with respect. Attend limited miqaats which are important, encourage debates and dialogue within your relationship of father-son-mother.

If you are really dependent on spiritual guidance and require a mortal guide/form, you can approach SKQ camp without fear, they don’t ask you to abandon your social support system. you can always keep your affiliation, allegiance a secret, moreover SKQ has made it more simpler to reach out by sharing through internet. Tolerate SMS camp as mere convenience and service provider, enjoy the benefits for which you pay. Slowly and steadily with time you will liberate yourself from your own mental clutches of dependence.

Sometimes we feel we are under microscope of the abde society, these wolves move around with suspicion and insecurity spying on your movements, actions, words, intent and thoughts. You never know who can back-stab amongst your friends and family when you express your heart and dilemma. Slow and steady distant yourself. Save yourself first and then worry about others. Family is more important than friends.

ha ha ha.... KQ toli has no recourse.... KQ cant help can he? What a Dawedaar....

btw based on the above who will you be giving your Misaq to?

OO53 for every one disillusioned person that speaks up over here, there are thousands who don't. We know that from people who call us to vent. Draw what comfort you can from that. It appears to me that you are already at a point where you are repelled by people who are theoretically responsible for providing succor, salvation etc. You are at the point of no-return. Having been where you are, I can advise that action is the only way out of your situation. Otherwise 10 years from now you will most likely be even more conflicted and you will be 10 years behind in building a new life.

I am curious what besides madrassah and constant money collection has led to your disenchantment. You seem affected by North Korean-like behaviors. Can you elaborate?

OO53,

you are worried about friends..??.you are lucky to have a like minded wife...you dont need any more friends...

think_for_yourself wrote:OO53 for every one disillusioned person that speaks up over here, there are thousands who don't. We know that from people who call us to vent. Draw what comfort you can from that. It appears to me that you are already at a point where you are repelled by people who are theoretically responsible for providing succor, salvation etc. You are at the point of no-return. Having been where you are, I can advise that action is the only way out of your situation. Otherwise 10 years from now you will most likely be even more conflicted and you will be 10 years behind in building a new life.

I am curious what besides madrassah and constant money collection has led to your disenchantment. You seem affected by North Korean-like behaviors. Can you elaborate?

Do you really need to ask? Perhaps you do since you have not been in an MS majlis lately. I think the biggest put-off for me is the chanting. Some dude gets up in the middle of the majlis and starts doing a pot-bellied cheer leading routine. Then everyone starts chanting as though they were at some world cup final or some hindu temple. There is over-the-top talk about the greatness of Mufaddal Saifuddin when clearly he is not the sharpest tool in the box and nor has he surrounded himself with smart people and nor is he sending very smart people to bilad imaniyah. When the MS-greatness-talk does not do the trick, the name of Burhanuddin Moula is invoked to turn grown men to blubbering fools. At-every-single-majlis. There is nothing wrong in speaking of Burhanuddin Moula. Like most of my generation, we revere him and miss him immensely, especially given what he has left behind... What bothers me is that his name is invoked by the bayan na karnar, clearly for emotional manipulation and everyone is OK with it. The bar is pretty low on actual religious content in religious discourses. Overall I feel a marked deterioration in the deeni ness of people and a sharp increase in the one-upmanship in being the bigger fan of Mufaddal Saifuddin. It just feels very different from being big fans of Burhanuddin Moula. This one feels very forced.

Quite agree OO53, this routine is getting very tiresome. If deen is just invoking the name of Burhanuddin Moula and nothing else, then where are we heading to?

nomoneybohra wrote:Quite agree OO53, this routine is getting very tiresome. If deen is just invoking the name of Burhanuddin Moula and nothing else, then where are we heading to?

Hellfire

Dumbledore wrote:OO53,

you are worried about friends..??.you are lucky to have a like minded wife...you dont need any more friends...

yes i will agree with u 100 percent.
wife is more imp than friends.
if wife has same mentality than already more than half the battle is won.
in my case, she is fanatic, and whenver i try to point this out, she will say maula mojizo batawse ane saglu thik thai jaase. i am still waiting for that mojiza though.

In my case wife is 60% liberal 40% fanatic...have to work hard for the remaining 40 %.

I would love to claim that Universaldad is an exception to the rule. Unfortunately I cannot. His disgusting mockery of a human being's disability is evident

Selective reading at it's best.

While Mufaddal Moula goes and hugs Hindu babas,

Are you sure it wasn't the other way around and ever stopped to think that perhaps the Hindu baba was offering taziyat/condolences?

in madrassah, our kids are taught intolerance and disdain for other religions

What intolerance are your kids taught ?

The sad outcome of this is that I see my children are slowly beginning to subscribe to this set of beliefs and over the last year, their transformation into hate-filled bigots has progressed considerably

Don't you think their transformation has anything to do with bad parenting on your part? Parents of hate filled bigots love to play the blame game.

As someone pointed out in the forum once, why are our children not taught that being a good human being is the first requirement for being a good mumin?

Ask your children if they are taught about the naseehat "Allah Ta'ala nu hamd tu karje" or "Biradar tu naseehat sun" in the Madressa.

In the event your children have become too hate filled to pay heed to the naseehat taught in the Madressa,what has stopped you to educate your own children? Children are your responsibility first.Don't dump everything on the teacher.Grow up.

I am also a little disturbed by the continuous need to reach into one's wallet for every visit to the masjid. The Jumoa ni raat namaz which provided spiritual satisfaction to me for years is now corrupted by the demand for Qarzan.

Demand or request? Were you told not to attend Jumoa ni raat namaz if you failed to contribute to voluntary qardan hasana? Say,there is a lower income middle class person amongst your masjid attendees.He has the niyat to give qardan hasana to attain the sawab as prescribed by Islam but he only has a very minuscule amount to give qardan hasana.What options does he have in that scenario? Ever stopped to wonder about others?

I have never turned away anyone who came to me directly for help but this bureaucratic intervention between me and my brothers is something I resent.

You seem well experienced in helping others.Out of curiosity,whenever anyone has approached you for help,what range is the amount in? 50-500? 500-5000? Say,one has only 100 to give away in qardan hasana.What do you suggest he should do to participate in the sawab of giving qardan hasana?

james wrote: What options does he have in that scenario? Ever stopped to wonder about others?

Good question. Ever stopped to wonder what the person who does not have money to give feels when they are walking from one person to another and they are the odd one out that does not have anything to give?

james wrote: Are you sure it wasn't the other way around and ever stopped to think that perhaps the Hindu baba was offering taziyat/condolences?

How many devout abdes without money offering could give taziyet/condolence to SMS in this fashion ? Kissing SMS’s hands and feet come at a huge price and a hanky in between for his own devout abdes, while 2 bit hindu baba walk in to embrace muffy maula topless.

james wrote:What intolerance are your kids taught ?

Ola Musalmaano
Hindu na haath nu naa jamo
Don’t make non-bohra friends
Apne (abdes) awwal darja che, bija chota and gaafil darja che
Apne to janaat na wasaaavnaaar chem bija sab to jahnnum ma jaase
Bayraao ghar no kono pakde, job na kare, naa saamle to maaro, ghar thi bahar nikaali do
Bazaar ma non-rida bayraao ne tez nigaah thi dekho,

james wrote:Don't you think their transformation has anything to do with bad parenting on your part? Parents of hate filled bigots love to play the blame game.

There is ample hate mongering going on in majlises and general media. From 2 penny abdes to official position holder in jamaat/daawat are enjoying the laanat party. MSBs are fertile grounds for instilling hate for SKQ or other non-conformists. parties. Pious and auspicious mikats are also no spared to spew hatred. Children are being transformed to hate filled bigots by excessive laanat baazi and human tendency to incline towards it, which is fully exploited by deceptive Kothari SMS toli.

james wrote:Ask your children if they are taught about the naseehat "Allah Ta'ala nu hamd tu karje" or "Biradar tu naseehat sun" in the Madressa..

Only if Kothari mullahs learn from their own preaching, they shud first apply these nohas or naseehats on themselves.

james wrote:Demand or request? Were you told not to attend Jumoa ni raat namaz if you failed to contribute to voluntary qardan hasana? Say,there is a lower income middle class person amongst your masjid attendees.He has the niyat to give qardan hasana to attain the sawab as prescribed by Islam but he only has a very minuscule amount to give qardan hasana.What options does he have in that scenario? Ever stopped to wonder about others?

Qardan Hasana and many such other schemes, although kothar calls it a voluntary hoob or ask to pay at fee-sabi-lillah rate/unit, but these are not true, this so called “voluntary hoob” are made compulsory when a person is cornered for various raza he seeks for his life occasions. This thugs put undue influence, negotiate and even bargain to any amount to extract as much as possible out of an abde.

Mumins are cornered and made to pass through humiliating scan check points to enter masjid in pious months of ramazan, where mussalla taxes are charged. Sheikhs and mullahs socially familiar with people and cajole them to pay up, there are many stories of rogue and rabid amils mistreating people who argue on unfair demands.

Lesson on ethics must be taught to these Kothari thugs, who embezzle, misuse, misdirect qardan hasana funds which are pledged by gullible mumins into hands of these thugs.

james wrote:You seem well experienced in helping others.Out of curiosity,whenever anyone has approached you for help,what range is the amount in? 50-500? 500-5000? Say,one has only 100 to give away in qardan hasana.What do you suggest he should do to participate in the sawab of giving qardan hasana?

Above example would have worked in a transparent, accountable and approachable set up, but these guys have deceptively mixed up questioning with doubting to safeguard their greed and frauds. It is better advised to handover qardana hasana donation directly to the needy. This helps in getting involved in khair-na-kaam, is more satisfying, enriching, enlightening and greater feeling of spiritual connection. One is better helping personally, than fund these goondaas..

Don't you think their transformation has anything to do with bad parenting on your part? Parents of hate filled bigots love to play the blame game.

James agreed on this
That is why SMS's grand children left their father and went to stay with SKQ and publicly chastised their father I suppose SMS and his sons are bad parents according to your definition
Do not say they were kidnapped since Saify Mahal is guarded 24/7 by Burhani Goondas sorry Burhani Guards

Muffaddali Mad-Rasahs and ONLY places where children are brain washed, period. They are drilled with the idea that eventually Dai is God. This is no different than any other madrasah where fanaticism is taught. These madrassahs should be banned and locked.