Dawoodi Bohra Forum

we have heard million times, that do the ziarat. our administration emphatically promotes ziarats. what are ziarats, how does it fulfill any religious obligation. how does it benefit the incumbent, or are they just waste of money and time. I have almost done all the ziarats, I had been to india and did most of ziarats, I had been karbala, najaf etc. it is very important we rationally think the utility or otherwise of these rituals. The amount of time and money spent on ziarats are huge. visiting a saints mausoleum is or may be an inspiration, an inspiration that saint may inspire. But I found by just going though the history of bohra dais, most of them had no significant contribution, even to our community. they became dai either by nass or by intrigue, then there were divisions among them. one or two dais or saint had inspired bohras for steadfastness and devotion to their faith. Qutbuddin shaheed is one of them.
but billions of rupees are spent every year and centuries of time are lost visiting these sites. just ponder on it, what did you get after visiting any shrine. what change did it bring to your life. if you don't find a satisfactory answer, then think about revisiting.

I watched the movie PK. One of the arguments which the fraud godman in the movie proposes is that believing in a god/religion etc gives people hope in times of despair.... For example, majority of people flock to places of worship because they 'fear' god (isn't fear of Allah center to Islam).. During times of hardship, this fear is accentuated many fold and hence people flock to places of worship, dargah etc in large numbers in the hope that their hardships will go away... Thats also the case in our ziyarat.. Another factor is reverence. People think/believe that the sacrifice given by Imam Hussain (AS) deserves a trip to his shrine by every of his follower and this is also encouraged by the clergy. Apart from that, going to Hajj, Ziyarats etc is totally faith and belief based and is far separated from any reason or logic. People since shahadat of Imam Hussain (AS) have been going to his Shrine to pay tribute which has been continued till the present day. Same with Hajj, same with any other human habit which has been sustained.

Any wonder that shrines of Bohra leaders have been converted into tourist resorts with star facilities (off course with public money). And the overflowing gallas and sumptuous food served for which Bohras traditionally give 'Hoob' and the number of goats sacrificed by way of mannat, the meat of which is then used in these jamans. It has now become more of a holiday or weekend trip then anything else.

The Korhar Gang is killing lots of BIRD with just one stone.They r renovating all d Dargahs into five stars Resorts.Most of the rooms n bungalows r built by pples money n they charge huge amount for that.Another thing if anyone wants to visit any dargah, he must clear all his dues to get safai chitthi.Then they ask to do a darees...or Zabiyat...or Thaal lakhawo..n if none of these last but not the least HOOB u have to give...Their Gullak is 24×7 minting money...So nobody is spared...Every one gives something or other..and about anything religious in performing Ziyarat there is nothing like that..There r lots n lots of Bohra poor pple who have not done Ziyarat of even Galiyakot..Haj n Karbala is just a dream for them..The Kothar gang even collects money for these poor pples Haj n Karbala Ziyarat..They hav no money in their safe to pay...Remember one thing whatever the Kothar tells us to do...they tell for their benefits n not ours..

dawedaar wrote:Apart from that, going to Hajj, Ziyarats etc is totally faith and belief based and is far separated from any reason or logic.

@ dawedaar, I beg to differ on Hajj. It is a pillar of Islam and has been made mandatory by Allah. You cannot club it with other ziyarats. Moreover, Kaaba is not a tomb .. there is nobody buried over there.
As far as ziyarats to the graves of pious people is concerned, I agree totally that there is no religion or even spirituality in it as many people think and as the kothar so conveniently propagates. At the most one can say that he/she is going to greet and pray FOR (and not TO) the person lying in the grave there. But, sadly, that's not the case. People go to these ziyarats with the firm conviction that these pious people will somehow alleviate the hardships plaguing them. And, of course, riding on these emotions, the kothar laughs all the way to the bank.

accountability wrote:But I found by just going though the history of bohra dais, most of them had no significant contribution, even to our community. they became dai either by nass or by intrigue, then there were divisions among them. one or two dais or saint had inspired bohras for steadfastness and devotion to their faith. Qutbuddin shaheed is one of them.

@ accountability ... you are right, this silsila of imams (yes, i include them too) and dais is nothing but a race for power. Apart from few of the earlier imams (immediately after the prophet), it has almost always been a tussle between brothers and sons. And this is the case with the dais too. Of course, there have been a few selfless souls who have worked tirelessly for the people but that does not warrant anyone going to their graves to ask for help and favours.

Ok DisillusionedDB sir, kindly explain me the worth and importance of going to Hajj apart from it being the pillar of Islam...

PS: I have not asked this question for mocking Hajj but more to get knowledge on the topic.

DisillusionedDB wrote:

dawedaar wrote:Apart from that, going to Hajj, Ziyarats etc is totally faith and belief based and is far separated from any reason or logic.

@ dawedaar, I beg to differ on Hajj. It is a pillar of Islam and has been made mandatory by Allah. You cannot club it with other ziyarats. Moreover, Kaaba is not a tomb .. there is nobody buried over there.
As far as ziyarats to the graves of pious people is concerned, I agree totally that there is no religion or even spirituality in it as many people think and as the kothar so conveniently propagates. At the most one can say that he/she is going to greet and pray FOR (and not TO) the person lying in the grave there. But, sadly, that's not the case. People go to these ziyarats with the firm conviction that these pious people will somehow alleviate the hardships plaguing them. And, of course, riding on these emotions, the kothar laughs all the way to the bank.

dawedaar wrote:Ok DisillusionedDB sir, kindly explain me the worth and importance of going to Hajj apart from it being the pillar of Islam...
PS: I have not asked this question for mocking Hajj but more to get knowledge on the topic.

Ok, dawedaar bhai, because of your PS statement, I will overlook your first statement.
1) First of all, Hajj is mandated in the Quran so it is waajib upon believing Muslims to embark on that journey once in his/her lifetime.
2) Hajj absolves us of all our sins and gives us a chance to begin a new life of piety and spirituality .
3) Hajj inculcates the feeling of equality and unity between all mankind irrespective of race, colour, ethnicity and even material possessions. A prince and a pauper, both come together shoulder to shoulder, in one garb which cannot differentiate between the two.
4) By performing Hajj, one renews his/ her Iman. It shows that we are one Ummah bound by the one true religion, Islam.
5) It's a commemoration of one of the greatest sacrifices a man could ever make and that is when Ibrahim nabi was ready to sacrifice his son, Ismail, for the sake of Allah.
The above points are just off the head .. some other learned people can add more.

Ok DisillusionedDB sir, kindly explain me the worth and importance of going to Hajj apart from it being the pillar of Islam...

There is nothing more worthy and important than being a piilar of Islam and commanded by the Lord himself. People tend to ask these questions because they have diluted the pillars of Islam so much with their own worthless ziyarats that they are now searching for worth and importance even in the true Pillars of Islam. What a shame!!

Any command from the Lord Almighty comes with the promise of a reward. Any man made ziyarat comes with nothing. In fact it may come with punishment if deemed to be shirk. So, if you want to visit karbala, visit karbala to pay your respects, but, do not expect any reward for this ziyarat, and more specifically, do not force/cojole people into going for these ziyarats. The claim that a visit to karbala is equivalent to the reward of a 100 Hajj or whatever the new number is, is pure non-sense.

Anajmi bhai you are going to be labelled as wahabi in few moments!

I hope you are referring to just this thread.

Dear anajmi sir, by this comment of yours "People tend to ask questions", you are acting like Kotharis who don't like being questioned. Why shouldn't one ask any questions, even asking the importance of Hajj. I asked the question sincerely to know the importance of Hajj and not to mock it as I clearly mentioned it. How to gain knowledge if one doesn't ask any questions. Knowledge is gained by asking questions. In your zeal to always bad mouth bohras or anything related to it, you tend to oversee a lot of things. Not good for your health. Get well soon!

anajmi wrote:

Ok DisillusionedDB sir, kindly explain me the worth and importance of going to Hajj apart from it being the pillar of Islam...

There is nothing more worthy and important than being a piilar of Islam and commanded by the Lord himself. People tend to ask these questions because they have diluted the pillars of Islam so much with their own worthless ziyarats that they are now searching for worth and importance even in the true Pillars of Islam. What a shame!!

Any command from the Lord Almighty comes with the promise of a reward. Any man made ziyarat comes with nothing. In fact it may come with punishment if deemed to be shirk. So, if you want to visit karbala, visit karbala to pay your respects, but, do not expect any reward for this ziyarat, and more specifically, do not force/cojole people into going for these ziyarats. The claim that a visit to karbala is equivalent to the reward of a 100 Hajj or whatever the new number is, is pure non-sense.

Bro anajmi
Travelling to visit a mosque is not allowed, no other pilgrimage except hajj is allowed:
These three mosques are the three for which it is prescribed to travel for the purpose of worship. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not travel (specifically) to any mosque except three: al-Masjid al-Haraam, Masjid al-Aqsa, and this mosque of mine.”
(bukhari)



Shrines\Dargahs (like the Ajmeri Khawaja Dargah) are not at all acceptable in Islam they are rather adversaries to Islam, they are an innovation which happened just 900 years ago , whereas Islam's (Allah's) last message came about 1400 years back. Also note that (Ziyarat) visiting a legal grave made up of mud and dirt alone without any scaffolding structures is Sunnah but if a dargah is built over the grave or if its made concrete by the ignorants than it cant be visited except for condemning it or demolishing it using legal means on approval from an Islamic government.

Evidences that even building them is not allowed let alone visiting them, because that would be considered as abetting in crime:

Jews were cursed by the prophet pbuh as they were the first to make graves concrete and revere it by making DARGAH over it.Below is the Jewish dargah of a Bani Israeli Prophet PBUH:



“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)

“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)

“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)

“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Quran - 1:5 You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

Building Shrines is akin to making Idols

Building shrines itself is Haram and equivalent to building a pagan Idol the prophet pbuh explicitly equated this act to idol building:
Prophet (pbuh) said : Do not make my grave an idol
Classed as saheeh hadith in Tahdheer al-Saajid min Ittikhaadh al-Quboor Masaajid, p. 24-26

so the prophet pbuh seems to associate the idea of building something over his grave as building an idol that is the reason he says not to make his grave an idol that could be worshiped.
This point is worth noting since in many pagan influenced countries like India, Iran, Israel, and Pakistan some Muslims have built shrines over the graves of saintly people and over time the shrines have become exotic and generously decorated with gold and jewels making the shrines magnanimous . Such shrines also attract non-Muslims/disbelievers who themselves naturally perceive the shrine as an idol to be worshiped in a similar way as the idolaters worship their idols. You can see the pictures below as how the non Muslims are making offerings to their shrine idol.

This is very common in India where the famous dargahs receive up to 40% visitors from the non Muslims and the so called "Muslim" caretakers of the shrine accept donations and offerings to the shrine. In fact it is very common for disbeliever and outright vulgar Bollywood stars to visit the idol shrine of khawaja ajmeri chisti in rajasthan, India.
These disbelievers would also never come to the Mosque or pray to one God but prefer to remain in the status quo of idolatry.

"وثن" is another name of idol in Arabic an idol, which is an image created from gold or silver or any other type of an idol. Everything that is worshipped other than Allah is called "وثن".

The Prophet pbuh was aware of the mistakes of people of previous scriptures and how graves and tombs of pious people lead to exaggeration in reverence to pious saints, which caused them to build idols over the graves, hence our prophet pbuh ordered:


The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "O Allah! Do not make my grave an idol that is worshipped. The anger on those who took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration was terrible."[Related by Ahmad (no. 7352,)Mawatta Book 9, Number 9.24.88]

Imam Malik said " سئل مالك رحمه الله تعالى عن الغريب يأتي قبر النبي كل يوم ، فقال : ما هذا من الأمر ، وذكر حديث : ( اللهم لا تجعل قبري وثنًا يُعبد ) Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him) was asked about a stranger who comes to the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) each day. He said, ‘That is not right,’ and quoted the hadith, ‘O Allah, do not make my grave an idol that is worshipped. [al-Jami’ li’l-Bayan by Ibn Rushd Classed as sahih by al-Albani in Tahdhir al-Sajid min Ittikhadh al-Qubur Masajid, p. 24-26.]


Even plastering graves is strictly forbidden by Prophet Muhammad pbuh

Apart from the prohibition of building shrines , even plastering the graves is prohibited: http://www.systemoflife.com/arti...


Shaykh Sayyed Sabiq Said in Fiqh us Sunnah Prohibition of Whitewashing or Writing on a Grave.Volume 004 : Funerals and Dhikr. Fiqh 4.072. (from Fiqh-us-Sunnah) Section : Prohibition of Whitewashing or Writing on a Grave.



Jabir reported: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, forbade the whitewashing of a grave, sitting on it, or erecting any structure on it." (Reported by Ahmad, Muslim, Nasa'i, Abu Daw'ud, and Tirmizhi who said that it is a sound hadith) Tirmizhi reported this hadith with this wording: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, forbade the whitewashing of graves, writing on them, building on them, or stepping on them." Nasa'i, reported it in these words: "The Prophet, peace be upon, forbade building over a grave, adding anything to it, white washing it, or writing on it."





Hence visiting shrines is more haram then visiting temple to revere an Idol. As it involves threefold sin :

1)Shirk
2)Disobedience to prophet pbuh teachings
3)Deception of using Islamic jargon to justify polytheistic practices

This may take the person even out of the fold of Islam and therefore after clear knowledge has come to us we should level the graves and shrines as per the commands of Prophet pbuh to Ali RA who was entrusted with the pious work of the prophet pbuh of demolishing Idols and Shrines:


"Abu'l-Hayyaj al-Asadi told that 'Ali (b. Abu Talib) said to him: Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling It. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (Do not leave) a picture without obliterating it." [Sahih Muslim 2:2115]

Rasoolullah(SAW) sent Ali(RA) to level the graves. The maximum allowed height is one span as compared to the surrounding area as mentioned in other hadiths.
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1996.

br. khokawala,

Thank you for that explanation.

dawedaar,

Sorry about that. I hope the answers provided are sufficient and have helped you gain more knowledge on this topic.

To all those who are saying that Rasullulah (SAW) had not said to do this or do that, please stop using, computers, cell phones, TV, internet, automobiles, etc as none of these things were told by our Nabi (SAW) to use! I hope you got the message!

Dawedaar bhai, what Anajmi and I meant was that, Hajj being a pillar of Islam, it does not behove of you (a Muslim) to be asking the worth and importance of it. Being a pillar itself elevates it in importance. If you notice, in my previous post I started it with the words "Ok, dawedaar bhai, because of your PS statement, I will overlook your first statement". The reason for doing that was because even I thought that your query was quite uncalled for.

dawedaar wrote:To all those who are saying that Rasullulah (SAW) had not said to do this or do that, please stop using, computers, cell phones, TV, internet, automobiles, etc as none of these things were told by our Nabi (SAW) to use! I hope you got the message!

Really ?? Do you even comprehend how silly you sound ??

anajmi wrote:

Ok DisillusionedDB sir, kindly explain me the worth and importance of going to Hajj apart from it being the pillar of Islam...

There is nothing more worthy and important than being a piilar of Islam and commanded by the Lord himself. People tend to ask these questions because they have diluted the pillars of Islam so much with their own worthless ziyarats that they are now searching for worth and importance even in the true Pillars of Islam. What a shame!!

Any command from the Lord Almighty comes with the promise of a reward. Any man made ziyarat comes with nothing. In fact it may come with punishment if deemed to be shirk. So, if you want to visit karbala, visit karbala to pay your respects, but, do not expect any reward for this ziyarat, and more specifically, do not force/cojole people into going for these ziyarats. The claim that a visit to karbala is equivalent to the reward of a 100 Hajj or whatever the new number is, is pure non-sense.

bro anjami
can u plz tell the translation of the surah 2 ayat 145
and the translation of ayatul kursi?
thanks