Dawoodi Bohra Forum

<br>For my information <p>Do Bohra install something called "Ghadi" in a newly constructed house?<p>What is it. and where this traditon begin?<p>Do they have move in new house at some precise time?<p>Do they believe in auspicious times?<p>Is this encouraged or discouraged by the Kothar?<p>Honest answers will be appriciated.<p>Wasalaam<br>

Muslim First,

It is better not to answer a vicious person like you since you will invert the facts and introduce further doubts in the minds of the readers. I know the answers and even the taaweel and wisdom to your questions but I will deliberately not answer.

Huzaif,

How about a curse then?

Br Muslim first
I think I might be able to help you here.

Ghadi as in car?

Or do you mean the earthenware-drinking container?

Can you be a little bit descriptive?

Sister Jinx

Ghadi or Ghado.

Earthen Pot or Pittal or Stainless steel pot filled with water.

Probably with little bit of salt in it.

And what is this precise timing to enter the House like 2:02 in afternoon?

Wasalaam

BE. Huzaif

You posted: -"I know the answers and even the taaweel"

"Taaweel" my foot. Stop mangling Islam with useless "Taweel"

3:7
He is the One Who has revealed to you (o Muhammad) the Book (Quran). Some of its verses are decisive - they are the foundation of the Book [and those are verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments), Al-Faraid (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment)] - while others are allegorical. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief (from the truth) follow the allegorical part to mislead others and to give it their own interpretation (seeking Al-Fitnah), seeking for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. Those who are well grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; it is all from our Rabb." None will take heed except the people of understanding.

Remember the last sentance None will take heed except the people of understanding."

You my brother Huzaif is not people of understaning. You are a brainwashed, groupie.

Wasalaam

And you, MF, are a brainwashed "evangelist" seeking to induce the same condition in others.

Br.Serendip.

Do you really believe that there is a "Taweel" about 1029 stars or placing of 'Ghada filled with water" in new house?

Do you really believe that that there is a "Taweel" knowlege of Quran and Syedan is only posseser of it?

I believe that placing of Ghada or entering house at precise time is superstious practice of Hindu haritage. Convince me if I am wrong.

Wasalaam

This is in reply to Muslim First's quotation of Quran supporting that there is no "Taweel".

Syedna Muayyad Shirazi(RA) has the following to say about the quotation Muslim First has used in Majalis-ul Muayyadiya - by Al Muayyad fid-din Shirazi

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The text of the Qur'an needs ‘Taweel'." This is agreed by every commentator. The point at issue is whether the ‘Taweel' can be known or cannot be known. Our opponents say that it cannot be known. They try to prove this point by quoting the Qur'anic verse, "None knows the ‘Taweel' excepting God." They stop here and make the succeeding part of the verse, "And those who are well-grounded in knowledge" the beginning of a new sentence.

But the exponents of the ‘Taweel' read the verse as a whole, "None knows the ‘Taweel' of the Qur'an excepting God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge." They treat the phrase, "Those who are well-grounded in knowledge" as an additional clause. The succeeding part of the verse, "They say we believe in it" is treated by the exponents of the ‘Taweel' as an adverbial clause. Accordingly the meaning of the verse is, "and those who are well-grounded in knowledge" saying "We believe in it."

They maintain that if those who are well-grounded in knowledge do not know the ‘Taweel' then it will be difficult for them to say that they believe in it. For, faith is a matter of conviction. Conviction in a thing which cannot be arrived at without the full knowledge of it. How can one say that he is convinced of something, which he does not know?

They further argue the case by saying that either the Prophet knew the ‘Taweel' of what he had brought with himself or did not know it. If he did know it then it would be wrong to read the verse as, ‘None but God knows its Taweel" and stop here as our opponents do. For, it is necessary that the Prophet should be in the know of this ‘Taweel' and we know that the Prophet was the foremost of those that were well-grounded in knowledge. If he was in the know, then, it automatically follows that those who were well-grounded in knowledge and who acquired this knowledge from him also knew the ‘Taweel'.

On the other hand if we maintain that the Prophet did not know it, then it does not look wise on the part of God that he should have sent him with something about which if any question is put to him he should plead his ignorance. This should be making the position of God and as well as that of the Prophet ridiculous.

Again, the ‘Taweel' which is mentioned in the Qur'an is either useful for the people or useless. If it is useful then how can it remain hidden and unknown? If it is useless then there was no necessity for God to talk of something which is of no use to man. This is clear to everybody except the enigmas of the Imams.

Tackling the subject from the rational point of view we know that the religion which the Prophet brought for us is as full of potentialities as the heavens and the earth and men themselves. The holy Qur'an says, "We shall show them Our signs in the heavenly bodies and in their own-selves." In another passage God says, "For men of conviction there are signs on earth and in your own-selves." Do you not notice them? The Prophet says, "God has framed His religious laws on the patterns of the laws of the Universe, so that the observance of these laws may lead men to the laws of religion and these laws may lead them to the uniformity of the work of God."

God has created the earth, air, water and fire for the growth of various kinds of vegetables and animals. None of these vegetables or animals is at first visible in the earth, air, water or fire. They possess the potential power of bringing out the various forms of life. Similarly the instruments of sound with which we are gifted do not talk at all at once but are potential talkers. They do not and cannot talk unless they are taught to talk.

In short, we find that everything that God has created in this world is meant for a certain definite purpose. It is not visible at first. It has to be drawn out by the intellectual power of man. For instance, the cultivator draws out corn from the field, the blacksmith makes instruments out of iron, the carpenter makes wooden things from wood and the goldsmith turns out ornaments from gold. Had God liked to unveil these things by themselves and not kept them latent, the land would have produced cooked bread, dates, grapes, liquors and dates stuffed with almonds. God did not like to do this and left it to the labour of workman to produce these things in order to prove their superiority over lower animals.

This is practically the case with everything that God has created. The purpose for which it has been created is to be decided and shaped by man. It automatically follows now that the ‘Shariat', a code of the laws of Islam, which the Prophet brought with himself, consists of the general principles. They possess the potentiality of being stretched out and made applicable to different cases, just as the earth, water, fire and air have the potential capacity to produce all sorts of things which man needs. It is only the ‘Wasees' and the Imams descending from the Prophet, who can draw out the essence from the general principles, like the human beings who draw out the various things they want from earth, water and air. The source of the religion and the creation of heavens and earth is one and the same. This clarifies to us the meaning of the verse; "There are signs for men of conviction on earth and in yourselves. Do you not notice them?”

Muslim First:

There is another way to translate the end of verse 3:7 --
"And none will grasp the message except Men of Understanding."

The argument is that the "message" is the hidden knowledge, and the "men of understanding" are people like the Prophet, the Imam, and the Imam's regents (dais). Thus, there are those who are given by Allah to understand the secrets of the Qur'an, and lay believers must recognize these people and have faith in Allah in seeking guidance from his appointees.

Though I'm not certain that I accept this argument, I don't have anything by which I could refute that interpretation of the verse. Once again, I see no way of proving it one way or the other...

Does anyone have a rebuttal, or further support (or clarification) of the above view?
I believe that Ahmed Ali's translation of the Qur'an has commentaries which explain this position more clearly (?)

Salaam

The argument is that the "message" is the hidden knowledge, and the "men of understanding" are people like the Prophet, the Imam, and the Imam's regents (dais). Thus, there are those who are given by Allah to understand the secrets of the Qur'an, and lay believers must recognize these people and have faith in Allah in seeking guidance from his appointees.

This is a rather common type of argument used by religious people. The problem is that this is completely unfalsifiable. If you do not understand it you are not a 'man of understanding', which is a pretty circular argument. There is no way you can prove or disprove an argument of that type.

-N

> The problem is that this is completely unfalsifiable. If you do not understand it you are not a 'man of understanding', which is a pretty circular argument. There is no way you can prove or disprove an argument of that type.

So what is to be done when one reaches an impasse of this sort? Is there anyway of furthering the discussion beyond this point, or is this an intractable difference?

Br. Khairen

AS.

As per your comment Tafsir of Ibn-Kathir has about 4 page long explaination of 3:7. Its starts on page 111 of volume 2 of new Abridged edition. When I have time I will type it and post it.

Wasalaam

Khairan,

Usually, this is an intractable difference, the reason being that the person who <B>wants[/b] to believe will not abandon the circular logic. If the reason for circular logic is genuine ignorance or mistake than he may be persuaded to frame his arguments in such a way that they are not tautological and then you can move on to see whether they are right or not. If not, just disengaging from the argument may be the best option.

-N

The discussion can end, but the most important thing is to analyze and realize the ethical dishonesty and mental subjugation which people like Muslim First are subjected to by their so called scholars of Quran, Sunnah and Shariat. By quoting that no one can understand Taweel these 'Bad Ulema' (Anti-Scholars) are ensuring that their subjects do not use their intellect, because according to them: Allah has said that no one can understand Taweel and hence it is no use exercising your intellect. This type of attitude is an important reason for the scientific and intellectual backwardness of the Muslim community, where importance is not given to analysis, discussion and search for knowledge.

Initially Muslim First quoted the Quranic verse as follows:
3:7
He is the One Who has revealed to you (o Muhammad) the Book (Quran). Some of its verses are decisive - they are the foundation of the Book [and those are verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments), Al-Faraid (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment)] - while others are allegorical. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief (from the truth) follow the allegorical part to mislead others and to give it their own interpretation (seeking Al-Fitnah), seeking for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. Those who are well grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; it is all from our Rabb." None will take heed except the people of understanding.

Muslim First's teachers purposely changed the Quran in the translation by changing the "And those who are well grounded in knowledge" to "Those who are well grounded in knowledge". This is the most important point in the whole discussion as they know by adding the "And" their whole spiritual world of "No Taweel" is broken at the foundations.

They expect the general public to take them at their word because generally people do not know Arabic and are hesitant to challenge their translations. But if one even has a smattering of Arabic knowledge he is invited to read the verse 3:7 and he will readily realize that the verse clearly contains the word "And", between Allah and the continuing verse.

The Quran literally states that "Taweel" can be understood by Allah and "those who are firmly grounded in knowlege." Thus looking at the literal translation this does not exclude people who try to build knowledge through study and analysis. The discussion whether only the Imams and/or the Dais can understand "Taweel" and not another person with knowledge is for a separate thread.

There are two commonly held views on the implicit (mutashabih) verses of the Qur'an. The first view, held mainly by Sunnis, is that none know their meanings except Allah. The second view held mainly by Shi'as is similar except that they hold that in addition only the Prophet and Ahlulbayt know their meanings and ordinary people can only obtain it from them.

Tabataba'i argues based on verses of the Qur'an that neither of these views are correct.

<blockquote>The Qur'an, being composed of words and meanings like any other book, explains itself. It does not remain silent when the situation of the text demands proof. Moreover, there is no reason to believe that Qur'anic terms mean anything other than the actual words being used. This means that every man, possessing a certain knowledge of the Arabic language, may clearly understand the meaning of the Qur'an just as he understands any other words written in Arabic. </blockquote>He shows that verses "are either immediately clear by virtue of their being in the class of explicit verses or, in the case of the implicit, made clear by the other explicit verses."

According to verse 3:7, the explicit (mahqam) verses are the "source of the Book" implying that the implicit verses are dependent on them and can be explained by them. Verse 4:82 invites the reader to ponder its verses, "Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy." This task wouldn't be possible if part of the Qur'an's meaning was hidden from the ordinary people.

<blockquote>The Prophet: "In truth the Qur'an was not revealed so that one part may contradict the other but rather was revealed so that one part may verify the other. So that what you understand of it then act accordingly and that which is unclear for you then simply believe in it."
-Al-'Amili, al-Durr al-manthur, vol. 2, p. 8.

Imam Ali: "And verily, the exterior of the Qur'an is elegant and its esoteric (meaning) is deep. Its wonders cannot be enumerated, and its marvels will not cease; and the darkness cannot be removed except by it."
-Bihar ul Anwar vol.2, p. 284.</blockquote>

I have transcribed Tafsir of Ayat 3:7-8 from “Tafsir Ibn Kathir” abridged version. Published by DARUSSALAM in 10 Volumes. This is from Volume II-Pages 111 to 118. Typing mistakes are mine. I have used Transliteration from Aalim V.
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The Mutashabihat and Muhkamat Ayat.

Allah states in Quran that, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are foundations of the Book, which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Quran that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allah said:

$$hunna ummul kita_b$$
$$“They are foundation of the Book”$$ Meaning, they are the basis of the Quran, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted.

$$wa ukharu mutasya_biha_t$$
$$“And others are not entirely clear”$$ as they have several meanings, some agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.

The Muhkamat are the Ayat that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and ruling that should be believed in and implemented. As for MUtashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.

Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yassir commented on,

$$ minhu a_ya_tum muhkama_t$$
$$“In it are verses that are entirely clear”$$ as “Containing proof of the Lord, Immunity for the Servants and refutation of the opponent and falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.” He also said as for unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is test from Allah to the Servants, just as he tested them with allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth”

Therefore, Allah said,

$$ fa ammal lazina fi qulu_bihim zaigun $$
$$So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation$$ meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wording of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings. As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allah said,

$$ minhubtiga_l-fitnati $$
$$Seeking Al-Fitnah$$ meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relaying on the Quran- The Mutashabih of it- but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that [Isa is divine because] the Quran states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah’s statements,

$$ In huwa il la_ abdun an amna_ alaihi--$$ [43:59]
$$He [Isa] was not more then a servant. We granted Our favor to him,$$ and,

$$ Inna masala 'isa_ 'indalla_hi ka masali a_dam(a), khalaqahu_ min tura_bin summa qa_la lahu_ kun fa yaku_n(u).$$
$$Varily, the likeness of Isa before Allah is likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, the (He) said to him: “BE!” and he was$$

There are other Ayat that clearly assert that Isa is but one of Allah’s creatures and he is the servant and Messenger of Allah, among other Messengers.

Alah’s statement

$$ wabtigaaa-'a ta'wilih$$
$$ And seeking for its Tawil$$ to alter them as they desire. Imaam Ahmed recorded (Ahmed 6:48) Aashah said. “The messenger of Allah SAW recited

$$$ Huwal lazi anzala 'alaikal kita_ba minhu a_ya_tum muhkama_tun hunna ummul kita_bi wa ukharu mutasya_biha_t(un), $$$

$$It is he who has sent down to you the book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are foundation of the Book; and other not entirely clear,$$, until,

$$$ ulul alba_b(i) $$$
$$Men of understanding$$

And he said,

((“When you see those who argue in it (using Mutashabihat) then they are those whom Allah meant. Therefore, beware of them."))

Al-Bukhari recorded similar Hadith in Tafsir of this Ayah [3.7] as also Muslim did in the book of Qadar (The Devine Will) in his Shahih, and Abu Dawud in the Sunnah section of his Sunan. From Aishah ; "The Messenger of Allah SWT recited this Ayah,

$$$Huwal lazi anzala 'alaikal kita_ba minhu a_ya_tum muhkama_t$$$
$$It is he who has sent down to you the book. In it are verses that are entirely clear,$$

Until,

$$$ wa ma_ yazzakaru illa_ ulul alba_b $$$$
$$$And none receive admonition except men of understanding$$$

He then said,

(("When you see those who follow what is not so clear of the Quran, then they are those who, Allah described, so beware of them")) [Fath al-Bari 8:57, Muslim 4:2053, Abu Dawud 5:6]

This is the wording recorded by Al-Bukhari.

ONLY ALLH SWT KNOWS THE TRUE TAWIL (INTERPRETATION) OF THE MUTASABIHAT

Allah said,

$$$ wa ma_ ya'lamu ta'wilahu_ illalla_h (But none knows its Tawil except Allah)$$$

Similarly, as preceded in what has been reported from Ibn Abbas, “Tafsir is of four types: a. Tafsir that Arabs know in their language, b. Tafsir that no one is excused of being ignorant of; c. Tafsir that scholars know; d. and Tafsir that only Allah SWT knows. (At-Tabari 1:75, this report is from a disconnected chain of narrators) Scholars of Quran recitation have different opinion about pausing at Allah’s name in this Ayah. This stop was reported from Aishah, Urwah, Abu Ash-Shatha, and Abu Nahik.

Some pause after reciting,

$$$ war ra_sikhu_na fil 'ilmi (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge) $$$$

Saying that Quran does not address the people with what they cannot understand. Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that Ibn Abbas said, “I am among those who are firmly grounded in its Tawil interpretation.” [At-Tabari 6:203, Editors note; This report in not authentic, and its meaning contradicts the authentic narration from him that he recited Ayah;”none knows its interpretation except Allah, and firmly grounded (Yaqul) say, “ This is recorded by At-Tabari 6:203, and its chain of narrators meets the criteria of Al-Bukhari.] The Messenger of Allah SWT supplicated for the benefit of Ibn Abbas,

$$O Allah! Bestow on him knowledge in the religion and teach him the Tawil (interpretation) $$$

[Fath Al-Bari 1:205]

Tawil has two meanings in Quran, the true reality of things, and what they will turn out to be. For instance, Allah said,

$$And he said: “O my father! This is the Tawil of my dream aforetime!”.$$ [12:100],

And

$$Await they just for it’s Tawil? On the Day (Day of resurrection) it’s Tawil is finally fulfilled. $$ [7:53]

Refers to the true reality of Resurrection that they are told about. If this is the meaning desired in the Ayah above [3:7] then pausing after reciting Allah’s name is warranted, because only Allah knows the true reality of things.
In this case Allah’s statement

$$$ war ra_sikhu_na fil 'ilmi (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge) $$$
Is connected to His statement, $$ yaqu_lu_na a_manna_ bih(i) $$

(Say: “We believe in it” ) If the word Tawil means the second meaning, that is, explaining and describing such as what Allah said,

$$(they said): “Inform us of Tawil of this”$$

Meaning its explanation, then pausing after reciting,

$$And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge $$

Is warranted. This is because the scholars have general knowledge in, and understand what they were addressed with, even though they do not have knowledge of true reality of things. Therefore Allah’s statement,

$$We believe in it$$

Describes the conduct of the scholars. Similarly Allah said,

$$And your lord comes, and the angels, in rows,$$ [89:22]

Means, your Lord will come, and the angels will come in rows.

Allah’s statement that the knowledgeable people proclaim,

$$We believe in it$$

Means, they believe in the Mutashabih.

$$all of it is from our lord$$

Meaning, both the Muhkam and the Mutashabih are true and authentic, and each one of them testifies to the truth of the other. This is because they come from Allah is ever met by contradiction of discrepancy. Allah said,

$$Do they not consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other then Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradictions. $$ [4:82]

Allah said in this Ayah [3:7]

$$And none receive admonition except men of understanding. $$,

Meaning, those who have good minds and sound comprehensions, understand, contemplate and comprehend the meaning in correct manner. Further, Ibn Al-Mundhir recorded in his Tafsir that Nafi bin Yazid said, “Those firmly grounded in knowledge are those who are modest and do not exaggerate regarding those above them, or belittle those below them”. Allah said they supplicate to their Lord,

$$ Rabbana_ la_ tuzig qulu_bana_ ba'da iz hadaitana $$

Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after you have guided us,

Meaning,

“Do not deviate our hearts from the guidance after you allowed them to acquire it. Do not make us like those who have wickedness in their hearts, those who follow Mutashabih in the Quran. Rather, make us remain firmly in your straight path and true religion.”

$$ wa hab lana_ mil ladunka $$

(And grant us from Ladunka). Meaning, from you,

$$ rahmah(tan) $$ (Mercy)

With which you make our hearts firm, and increase in our faith and certainty.

$$ innaka antal wahha_b(u) $$). (Truly, You are the Bestower )

Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir recorded that Umm Salamah said that Prophet SAW used to supplicate,

((O You Who changes the Hearts, make my heart firm on your religion))

He then recited:

$$Rabbana_ la_ tuzig qulu_bana_ ba'da iz hadaitana_ wa hab lana_ mil ladunka rahmah(tan), innaka antal wahha_b(u).$$
“Our lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after you have guided us, and grant us mercy from you, Truly You are the Besower.” [Ibn Abi Hatim 2:84, At-Tabari 6:213]

The Ayah continues,

Rabbana_ innaka ja_mi'un na_si li yaumil la_ raiba fih(i), innalla_ha la_ yukhliful mi'a_d(a). [3:9]

(“Our Lord! Verily, it is you Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt”)

Meaning, they say in their supplication: O our Lord! You will gather your creation on the Day of Return, judge between them and decide over what they disputed about. Thereafter, you will Reward or Punish each according to the deeds they did in this life.
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Muslim First,

You are the most ignorant if you deny taaweel. The reason why people like you do not accept that there is taaweel is because people like you simply do not know it. I know tons and tons of taaweel. Infact there is a 500 page kitaab on the taaweel of the Quran. It is your foolishness and ignorance that you proclaim that there is no taaweel.

The Quran states [al-Anfal 8:11] When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him
and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you
the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby.
(When water rains from the sky, the water makes the ground slushy and slippery. Obviously, the feet hereby become shaky. But here in this ayat, it is mentioned that the feet get firm. How come? This is because the water here refers to knowledge and the feet refers to Iman(faith). With knowledge, the faith gets firm.)

This is one example of taaweel.
It is the ignoratn who proclaim that there is no taaweel and the reason is simple. They do not know it.