Dawoodi Bohra Forum

News Item- Syedna has been awarded a doctorate degree in Pakistan-Can somebody illuminate me the basis of this award!My guess is that this University has been heavily bribed by Kothar to put another crown on his head- As far as I know this syedna has not meaningfully contributed to any Arabic,Urdu or Islamic literature and never engaged himself with any sort of debates with the intellectuals- What a waste of an important degree!

As far as I have heard from some of the insiders that this degree was PURCHASED by donating a Building ( Rupees 25 million) for the Genetics Department. Otherwise the university of Karachi was in no mood to give this degree if he had not contributed anything for the humanity or for the scientific development.

I wonder how many bohris (who are mostly petty traders) understand the subject of Genetics ?.

Welcome to the Board Br Massom Sehrai-Thanks for your info--Can you imagine what 25 million Rs will do to improve the life of those affected by riots & earthquakes in India? Please continue to fill in about the news of Kothar in Pakistan--

What a waste of Bohra money....!!!! for his lust for name and fame.... we pay dearly....

Anyways University of Karachi are no fools... they got the money for their work and department and can very well justify why they 'sold' this degree to this guy.... as is he has a name... and following....

I tell u Bohras are fools in general or they try and pretend to be .... they will be talking with pride .... Syedana got hon, degree from UK.... hey it is University of Karachi...!!! but who knows after few months Kothar turns it into United Kingdom, they are real good at tiwsting facts....!!!!

Wake up Bohras.... No one can help you if u cannot help urselves...

yupp,,,only someone with a stature as lofty and intentions as noble as Mal can help us....

Mal,
in all fairness, you should note that the Dai did get a honorary doctorate from Al'Azhar for Theology, as well as being honored for Islamic and Social achievements in the UK by UK's high ranking officials.

and in fairness, it is wrong to insinuate that the leaders of Univ. of Karachi sold their name for money. Remember it is the largest univ. in Pakistan and the genetics research building that was built was named after the Dai.

hur,

The leader of the country of Pakistan would be good example for you when you try to figure out whether the leaders of a university in pakistan can sell their names or not!!

Why was the genetics research building named after the dai? Was it because of his contribution to the science of genetic research? Was it because of his contribution to the religion of Islam as practiced by the leaders of that University (which I am assuming are Sunnis, but I may be wrong). And if the answer is none of the above then it probably has to something to do with the currency that is popular in Pakistan!!

We all know that it is common for universities and hospitals to have rooms and buildings named after people who are wealthy contributors.

anajmi,
you have a point regarding name selling....but this is why I referred to al'Azhar and the UK events. They have little need to sell their names or compliments. And the fact the more than likely the majority of the head official both in the government and KU do not hold the shiah beliefs of the Dai and are in fact congradulating and thanking him for what he has done for the country and school respectively.

Your second post is actually all three. He has given an endowment to the school for research studies, he has been deemed by members of the theological scholars as a revivers of Islamic values and ethos, and he made the major contribution to building and furnishing the building and has publicly promoted the use of the building, in addition to the other facilities, for their intended use, in this case genetics research.

Last time I checked King Fahd, Andrew Carnegie, and others were not scientists or engineers...but they have funding many facilities for teaching and research.

Before you guys get your panties tied up in a knot, it is a common practice to name buildings and research facilities after major contributors {and many thanks to them}.

Yet again a lot of you and the Bohras will ignore the bigger question. How does a religious leader get that kind of money ? Since the Bohra population is arguably only a million, could that money be better spent ensuring first that the Bohra poor don't have to sell Paan or make Rotis to earn a living ? I only ask this question because the Dai is conspicuously rich {from “donations “only}, and his subjects are relatively small in number. Therefore he can make a difference; I would not ask Carnegie this. He has no subjects, not a religious leader, doesn’t owe anything to his followers, and has <B>earned </B>his money.

Inquiring minds want to know....

Hur,

We better listen to average bohra (moron) here. He's been there a few times.

Br Anajmi- No need to Name Calling here- I think Average Bohra made a very good point here in the debate!

Dear Br. Mohd Hussain,

If you had read the all the posts completely you would've realized the context of my post. I wasn't referring to the point he made. I was only referring to the panties he tied up in a knot.

Take it easy and we will all survive this Inshaallah.

Dear average bohra,

I'm sure the donations are the main source for the wealth of the Dai. But shiahs considers donations to the spirtal leader requirements for zakats. Once it leaves your hand with the intent of giving it to him...it is wrong to have any claim to that money and criticize what his uses it for. You should not follow him and give him money if you don't believe his position. This is the same for the Ayatuallahs, Agha Khan, etc. So you are not correct in saying he hasn't earned his money.

Secondly, is it wrong to give HIS money for something like a genetics school? I'm his approach that many more bohras will be able to attend KU for further development of the community.

Thirdly, is it really better spent giving money to people...just for the fact so they are not poor? I believe totally in giving when in need and uplifting the community...but not by just giving money. The Ayatullahs and Agha Khan, who is are spirtual leaders, develop institutions to support their community...not just money.

I think you need to stop looking at things as they affect you, instead of an overall approach.

Brothers,

I have not been writing anything till now. But it seems that we all agree to one point. Dai should use the money for the betterment of the community first rather then giving it outside. Anajami, Av. Bohra, Hur everbody has a point, even Mal had a point ..... it is not WHY do give money to Dai if we donot trust him, the money is given with the trust that it will be ustilised 'justifiably' and it means it is community money and logically should be used for community first. I can agree if he gives money for people suffered by floods in Bangaldesh or earthquake in India or Pakistan or for people affected by riots. He may give money for research but there are priorities. Likewise I argue, why USA has to spent so much money on space research (Mars and all that), TODAY, when Africa is hungry and naked....!!!!

SFA,
Although you wrote a nice post..you totally contradict yourself. You say it is ok to give the money to the Dai....with the knowledge that he will use for the benefit of the community.

Who decides what is the best use of this money? Where is it written it must be used for the community? Who says it must be used at all?

You give the money for purification of yourself. That's it...no other strings attached. This is the Quranic and traditions definition of Zakats and Khums. This is not a "charity community chest". What happens to the money thereafter is not your concern nor your position to criticize. Because the minute you do...you have forsaken the purification that it was intended for.

Dear Hur,

You say, "You give the money for purification of yourself. That's it...no other strings attached. This is the Quranic and traditions definition of Zakats and Khums. This is not a "charity community chest". What happens to the money thereafter is not your concern nor your position to criticize. Because the minute you do...you have forsaken the purification that it was intended for. "

And you are right. But I have not seen or heard that any religious leaders, including the Ayatullas and the Aga Khan, force their people to give zakats or khums, etc. They do not say that "if you do not give us the money for zakat, etc. we will not bury you when you die, or we will not give you chithi to go for Hajj or ziyarats, or we will not perform your marriages, etc." By the way, Aga Khan does not only give money or help his own community but all the under privileged people in the world. He makes sure that his people are safe and secure in any part of the world. But our Dai and his amils make us usafe and unsecured by demanding money not only for zakat, khums, sabil, but also for titles, ziyafats, marriages, sabaks, mishaqs, etc. Ramadhan is a very peaceful month for every Muslim but Every Ramadhan, we in the U.S. feel very insecured because we are demanded to pay certain amount of money for zakat,etc. Amilsaheb decides what "our capacity should be" and "we must pay whatever he demands". The more he squeezes out of us the more commission he gets.

We are also forced to give iftar dinner at least once in the month. This is not what the Fatimi Imams did. In fact they fed the Jamat. Here we have to feed the Kothars instead of the poor people.
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Posts: 64

Africawala,
"And you are right. But I have not seen or heard that any religious leaders, including the Ayatullas and the Aga Khan, force their people to give zakats or khums, etc."

--then you little of these communities. However, they are not are tight as the bohras and so there is not the control over the communities either. But do not think this control is not inspired by them either. It is the fact that there are 25 million Agha Khan Ismaili, 100 to 150 million shiahs of persuasion that don't adhere to a tight doctrine like the bohras.

You say you pay taxes and others don't...this is required by all shiah..but because the community is not under an establishment as the bohras..nothing is enforced. But believe me..they aspire for this. And it is not an evil aspiration...but one to establish for the rule of the Imam that comes out of hiding. You praise the Agha Khans gifts to societies and Ismaili. Agha Khan is one of the top 15-20 richest men in the world and hasn't worked a day in his life. Agha Khanis are required as members of their jamatkhanas to pay 15% of the net income to the jamatkhana for the Agha Khan. They don't pay the other stuff...because the Agha Khan doesn't require them to believe in it anymore (ie zakat and khums).

hur,

Can you post the ayah of the quran which defines zakat and khums the way you say it does?

Hur,

My friend,

Aga Khanis pay 15% to him, correct... why will they not pay - they are NOT forced to pay. BUT they pay coz they see the results... they see how powerful they have become... No (or very few) Aga Khanis are poor..... they have established themselves at so many places ... go see North Pakistan (Gilgit, Hunaz), go see them in India, see them in Karachi only, see them in Europe, see them in USA and Canada - look at the number of their Jamat Khanas - see an ordinary Aga Khani and u will realize. It is give and take, may friend.

U talk to zakat and Khumus etc. As Anajami said, quote an Ayat from Quran. And why do u think we should not care or worry what happens to that money - we will worry - i m not an expert on Quran but i know the purposes of zakat money - for widows, orphans, needy and poor, for health, education, for noble causes - not for Royal Family of thousands...!!!! not for charity-you-deem-fit....!!! Not for Mahals and certainly not for all those ROZAs they are making. Look at Roza-tut-Tahera - millions wasted, for what, what is that roza gonna give, why not built a hospital, school, college (again Agah Khan University in Karachi) - we have a right to know what happens to our zakat money.

Any further thoughts, anybody.

SFA,
"Aga Khanis pay 15% to him, correct... why will they not pay - they are NOT forced to pay."
--according to who??

"BUT they pay coz they see the results... they see how powerful they have become"
--there 25 million of them. Actually Bohras have more pull than if you consider their population.

"No (or very few) Aga Khanis are poor"
--based on what. You ever been to Afghanstan, Pakistan, even in India. They are right next to the unfortunate poor bohras.

"they have established themselves at so many places ... go see North Pakistan (Gilgit, Hunaz)"
--they've been there for over 1000 years!! And the original Nizari establishment was from there.

"go see them in India, see them in Karachi only, see them in Europe, see them in USA and Canada - look at the number of their Jamat Khanas - see an ordinary Aga Khani and u will realize. It is give and take, may friend."
--Well...so are bohras and other shiahs. Most are in these place by the same reason the bohras and other shiah are...they were kick out of Africa and sent there as refugees. And while there, they setup gathering spaces.

"U talk to zakat and Khumus etc. As Anajami said, quote an Ayat from Quran. And why do u think we should not care or worry what happens to that money - we will worry - i m not an expert on Quran but i know the purposes of zakat money - for widows, orphans, needy and poor, for health, education, for noble causes - not for Royal Family of thousands...!!!! not for charity-you-deem-fit....!!! Not for Mahals and certainly not for all those ROZAs they are making. Look at Roza-tut-Tahera - millions wasted, for what, what is that roza gonna give, why not built a hospital, school, college (again Agah Khan University in Karachi) - we have a right to know what happens to our zakat money.

--By your description...you know little of what zakat, khums, or sadaqa is and its origin or difference. How can you present what you consider a definitive argument when you or Anajmi have little idea of what any them are? And then compare it to what the Agha Khan doesn't with his money?

.
Br. Hur

Please define Zakat, Khums and Sadaka

Please also qoute relevent Ayat of Quran and Ahadith.

Jazak Allah

.

Hur,

Aga Khani were used for mere comparison. They are not an end in themselves. Let me put it that way, I am talking of what good they have and they are, i want to learn from them, want to adopt the good things ... learn from their success which is more than ours...

Secondly, I said, I am not an expert in zakat, khumus and sadaqa but atleast i know what they are, how to be collected, from whom, how and for what purposes.

So if you are an 'expert' - tell me, my contention that zakat is for poor and needy, orphans and widows, for education and health and for the betterment of Ummah is wrong..??!!!! Dai has no declared source of income, yet he and his family live like kings .... how..??!!! from where did they got that wealth - a few hundred years back Dais in India use to work to earn their livelihood, what magic did they have to amass such a wealth (or Imam gave it to him..!!!) - What about Mahals...?? And why on earth there are trillions of rozas in India - to me its an investment on part of Cult - there are galas and hundreds of bohras go their regularly and put money into galas..... where does that money go.....??????

Yes, they can live in Mahals if they can afford that. Prophets and Imams lead a simple life. Now donot quote Imams of Eygpt - they were 'rulers' and had politics involved and it was the demand at taht time they being religious and political leaders at the same time.

And..... to add more, what is all this Sajdas and stuff..... how was he able to curse the three caliphs of Sunnis sitting in Dubai..??!! So please do not brush aside Reformists or those who question on the pretext they do not know. We try to honest and say, yes, we are not experts, we know something and seek more knowledge and answers.

SFA,
"I am talking of what good they have and they are, i want to learn from them, want to adopt the good things ... learn from their success which is more than ours..."
--the thing that is strange is that they are referencing the book of the Fatimi Imam and Dais of Yemen and India for their history and belief. Who are you then refering to?

"Secondly, I said, I am not an expert in zakat, khumus and sadaqa but atleast i know what they are, how to be collected, from whom, how and for what purposes."
--but the point is you don't know what each is for and is to be used for...find out first before stating as though you do. I am not an expert by any mean in fiqh...but I know when not to state something as though it is a fact.

"So if you are an 'expert' - tell me, my contention that zakat is for poor and needy, orphans and widows, for education and health and for the betterment of Ummah is wrong..??!!!!
--Zakat means purification an is a tax on net income after expensives taken in a years time given during Ramadhan. It is given to the Imam of the time or to his representative.

Sadaqa is a general alms giving given by the muslim to the poor and charity directly.

Khums is tax equivalent to 1/5 (khamsa) of the net income. 1/2 is given as silatul Imam (for the Imam) and 1/2 is given as sadaqa by the Imam at the Imam decision.

"Yes, they can live in Mahals if they can afford that. Prophets and Imams lead a simple life. Now do ot quote Imams of Eygpt - they were 'rulers' and had politics involved and it was the demand at taht time they being religious and political leaders at the same time."
--Last time I check Islam didn't differiate between religion and politic..they are one and the same. The Dais of Yemen were religious and political rulers and lived in "mahals".

And..... to add more, what is all this Sajdas and stuff..... how was he able to curse the three caliphs of Sunnis sitting in Dubai..??!! So please do not brush aside Reformists or those who question on the pretext they do not know. We try to honest and say, yes, we are not experts, we know something and seek more knowledge and answers.
--This is my point...first learn and then make accusations! I didn't brush aside reformist...I am chastizing them for being lazy in understanding their faith first.

Dear Hur,

I think you are the one who knows little about the Aga Khanis and the Shiahs. Most of my friends in the U.S. are Aga Khanis and Shiahs and Sunnis. None of these people are forced to pay. They are left to their own conscience. As for the Aga Khanis, some pay 12 1/2% and not 15% but others, out of their love of their Imam who takes good care of them, pay 25%. Now this is all voluntary. Nobody forces them. For Mohoram and Ramadhan I go to Shiahs masjid, and it is the same there. Nobody is forced to do jaman for the jamat. Their vaezs are full of history and all donations are voluntary. No force and no threats.

You say, "You praise the Agha Khans gifts to societies and Ismaili. Agha Khan is one of the top 15-20 richest men in the world and hasn't worked a day in his life. Agha Khanis are required as members of their jamatkhanas to pay 15% of the net income to the jamatkhana for the Agha Khan. They don't pay the other stuff...because the Agha Khan doesn't require them to believe in it anymore (ie zakat and khums).

How can a man who has not worked for a day become so rich, unless he has supernatural powers, which I do not believe. It is possible for the Bohora Dai and his lazy children, who extort money from the community, and stay home with their family and able bodied shezadas. Now, these are the people who do not work a day in their lives.

On the contrary, Aga Khan and his children all work. His children work for their father and are on their father's payroll. If you see Aga Khan's projects in the Africa and world over, you can see what role their children play including the Aga Khan's daughter who deals with the community's women's and children's issues. You are very generous in according the number of Aga Khanis in the world, i.e. 25 million. I think your statistics are wrong. I follow this community intently because I admire their leader and their prosperity and I know they are about 15 million. Only recently the majority have come out of Russia, China, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, etc. Yes there are Russian and Chinese Aga Khanis, brother. I grew up in Africa with these people. When there was turmoil in Uganda, Aga Khan sent his planes to evacuate his followers. In Tanzania, he arranged with the Canadian government to give visas to his people to immigrate to Canada. and some of us pretended to be Aga Khanis and left that way. he arranged emigration of 10,000 Aga Khanis from wore torn Afghanistan to go to Canada and for 3 years he provided for these people. During the Gujarat earth quakes he provided a lot of money for his people and others affected by the earthquake, while our dai was busy with the tamashas.

Zakat and Khums are very much part of the Aga Khanis. They pay on a daily basis and not only in ramadhan or Mohoram. They are told that without zakat none of their religious supplications are accepted. But there is no fear in them and they are not afraid of their governemnts or their religious leaders, i.e. those who are equivalent to our amils, because they know their Imam will always protect them. By the way even their amils do not solicit money for any cause from the jamat and the amils do voluntary service, i.e. without a penny. They do not get 20% of the money from the zakat money either.

As SFA says, Aga Khanis see results. Go to ismaili.net site and see how many universities, health centers, education centers, loan services, the Aga Khan is offering. He contributed 75 million dollars alone to Afghanistan, more than the Canadian Government. So please tell me how can a person who does not work a day in his life get all this money. My friends in Africa were regular zakat payers but in the west they have just become materialistic and admit they do not pay what they are required to but nobody knows except their conscience. So I cannot say that Aga Khan gets money from his people. Everyday he is giving money somewhere. He recently converted slum area in Egypt to a Park and raised the Ayubbid wall which will bring a lot of tourist money into Cairo. He rehablitated the poor taken out of the slum area in proper houses. How can he do this, beats me and has me spinning. So Please open your horizon and see what other leaders are doing. Salaams.

P.S. If any of you are interested in knowing what atrocities have been committed against some of my friends in the name of our dai and bohora religion, please let me know and i shall be very glad to fill you all in.

Africawala,
if you had read my earlier post, I stated that they are not forced to pay because the population is so varied and an establishment like the bohras is not form...but not because they don't want it formed. Go to Iran where the Ayatuallahs are and see what is required and what is not. Sunnis don't believe in any Imams so they do as they wish and follow the shiekhs they want.

"How can a man who has not worked for a day become so rich, unless he has supernatural powers, which I do not believe. It is possible for the Bohora Dai and his lazy children, who extort money from the community, and stay home with their family and able bodied shezadas. Now, these are the people who do not work a day in their lives."
--It is the same way the Dai and those shahzadas who didn't work a day in there lives to live like they do, by the donations of the followers. The only difference is the Dai and shahzadas actually know about Islam and Fatimi heritage and fiqh. Think about what you wrote...25 million ismaili (quoted from their own website) even half give 5% of what they earn to the Agha Khan adds up quickly. And this is still 20 times more than the bohoras. His children work for his father??? Well so do the shahzada work for the Dai? They manage the jamias, musafir khana, etc. Why is that different or worse. And I would remind you that the Agha Khan's daughter married a christian...which even according to Nizari fiqh make her no longer a muslim!

But my point was not criticize other shiahs...but to make comparision. You praise Agha Khan for his donations to his community and others...yet criticize the Dai for his donations to his community and others? Why the double standard?

Regarding zakat in ismaili...they don't call it zakat per say.

Dear Hur,

HERE ARE YOUR RESPONSES TO SFA, AND MY RESPONSES TO YOUR STATEMENTS. Some of your statements DO NOT MAKE SENSE.

SFA;
"BUT they pay coz they see the results... they see how powerful they have become"

HUR;
--there 25 million of them. Actually Bohras have more pull than if you consider their population.

PLEASE, PLEASE EXPLAIN ABOVE. I COULD NOT MAKE SENSE OF THE ABOVE STATEMENT. WHAT PULL DO WE HAVE? PULL BY THE NECK TO SAIFEE MAHAL THAT WAS, AND I JUST CAME TO KNOW, SNATCHED FROM PEERBHOY FAMILY?

SFA:
I am talking of what good they have and they are, i want to learn from them, want to adopt the good things ... learn from their success which is more than ours..."

hur:
--the thing that is strange is that they are referencing the book of the Fatimi Imam and Dais of Yemen and India for their history and belief. Who are you then refering to?

I DO NOT THINK YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HISTORY AND BELIEF. WHAT BELIEF THEY SHARE WITH US? DO YOU KNOW THEY SHARED WITH US THE FATIMID IMAMAT UNTIL IMAM MUSTANSIR BILLAH? ANY HISTORIAN WOULD REFER TO AVAILABLE SOURCES, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS. IF THEY DID THEN THERE WOULD BE NO AGA KHAN. Ivanow has referred to dais of Yemen in his book on Ismailism, does that mean he is sharing our beliefs?why does not the dai release material about the fatimid imams and dais to researchers? What does he have to hide? The all knowledgeable Dai and bolto Qur'an (I thought only the Imams were referred as such and your dai is not an Imam) why does he not open his library to historians and declare that he is the REPRESENTATIVE OF THE IMAM ON EARTH. AGA KHAN CLAIMS AND SO DO THE HISTORIANS THAT HE IS THE DIRECT DESCENDANT OF PROPHET MOHAMMED THROUGH THE PROGENY OF FATIMA AND ALI.

sfa:
"Secondly, I said, I am not an expert in zakat, khumus and sadaqa but atleast i know what they are, how to be collected, from whom, how and for what purposes."

HUR:
--Zakat means purification an is a tax on net income after expensives taken in a years time given during Ramadhan. It is given to the Imam of the time or to his representative.

AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG. ZAKAT DOES NOT MEAN PURIFICATION. ZAKAT MEANS CHARITY. zakat purifies your property and possessions, as the prayer(Ibada) purifies your soul but prayer does not mean purification. ZAKAT IS TO BE PAID AS SOON AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER YOU WILL LIVE UNTIL RAMADAN OR FOR THAT MATTER EVEN TOMORROW. please tell me where in the Qur'an does it say that you have to pay zakat in the month of Ramadhan. Yes, there is a Zakat of Idd El Fitr, and according to Ghazzali it is to be paid at the end of Ramadhan.

HUR:
Khums is tax equivalent to 1/5 (khamsa) of the net income. 1/2 is given as silatul Imam (for the Imam) and 1/2 is given as sadaqa by the Imam at the Imam decision.

YOU ARE AGAIN WRONG HERE. THIS IS WHAT I PICKED UP FROM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE ISMAILI SITE (AGA KHANIS)
In addition to Zakat ALL Muslims are ordained to pay Khums. Khums is derived from the word Hams (which means five) and hence khums means =
one-fifth. During the time of the Prophet Khums was collected on the war booty. In Sura VIII Ayat 41 Allah says: (tRANSLATION BY YUSUF ALI)

And know that out of All the booty that ye May acquire (in war) A fifth share is assigned To God, and to the Apostle, and to near relatives, =
Orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer, - ...."

Footnote 1209: The rule is that a fifth share is set apart for the Imam (the Commander) and the rest is divided among the forces. The fifth =
share reserved is expressed to be for God and the Apostle and for charitable purposes for those to whom charity is due. Ultimately everything is at the disposal of God and His Apostle: but four-fifths are divided, and only one fifth is retained for the special purposes.
The Imam has discretion as to the mode of division. In the Apostle's life time a certain portion was assigned to the Apostle and his near
relatives.

SO DEAR HUR YOUR STATISTICS ARE WRONG, I.E. 1/2 is given as silatul Imam (for the Imam) and 1/2 is given as sadaqa by the Imam at the Imam decision.

BY THE WAY YOU DID NOT EXPLAIN FROM WHOM THE ZAKAT IS TO BE COLLECTED. AND WHO DECIDES ON THE AMOUNT OF ZAKAT TO BE PAID, THE AMIL OR THE PERSON HIMSELF. PLEASE ANSWER, DO NOT AVOID THIS AND RANT ON THE AGA KHANIS. AS IT GOES IN THE U.S. ZAKAT IS COLLECTED even FROM PEOPLE ON THEIR DEATH BEDs BECAUSE OF THE THREAT THAT THEY WILL DIE SOON AND THEY WILL NOT BE BURIED. THIS HAPPENED TO US AND THAT IS WHY WE LEFT. THE SHIAHS AND SUNNIS HAVE AGREED TO TAKE CARE OF US EVEN THOUGH WE DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR FAITH.

--Last time I check Islam didn't differiate between religion and politic..they are one and the same. The Dais of Yemen were religious and political rulers and lived in "mahals".

REALLY? WHERE DID YOU CHECK? please let me know your source. IF ISLAM DID NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN RELIGION AND POLITICS THEN THERE WOULD BE NO KINGS OF JORDAN, SAUDI ARABIA ON ONE HAND AND THE ULLEMAS ON THE OTHER. IT WAS DIFFERENT IN THE TIME OF THE FATIMID KHILAFAT BECAUSE THE IMAMS POSSESSED THE RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE AND ALSO WERE THE RULERS. BUT I never heard that the Dais in Yemen were 'RULERS'. Please let me know the name of the first ruling Dai.

HUR;Prophets and Imams lead a simple life.

WRONG AGAIN. Remember Dawood (S.A.) and Suleiman (A.S.)Nabis?

BY THE WAY WHY DO WE NEED RAZA TO GO FOR HAJJ OR FOR ZIYARATS? DON'T TELL ME THAT WE NEED THAT BECAUSE WE USE THE FACILITIES THERE. I FOR ONE WOULD NOT WANT TO STAY AT ANY OF THOSE FACILITIES. I HAD RATHER STAY AT A NICE HOTEL. EVEN THEN I WOULD NEED A CHITHI. WHAT FOR?

I HAVE MANY, MANY MORE QUESTIONS. STICK WITH THE BOHORAS AND DO NOT GO TO AYATULLAHS AND AGA KHAN. you started referring to them and we picked up but obviously you do not know a thing about them. All you know is the jealousy that is going around you all about the shiahs and sunnis and aga khanis, etc. While they all enjoy their freedom you all are enslaved. I thought the Prophet abolished slavery and condemned it. So where did your masters get this new trait from?

Hur:if you had read my earlier post, I stated that they are not forced to pay because the population is so varied and an establishment like the bohras is not form...but not because they don't want it formed.

dO YOU MEAN TO SAY THE BOHORAS ARE ORGANISED (formed) AND THE OTHERS ARE NOT? wHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?

zAKAT IS MANDATORY IN ISLAM. BUT THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION. FORCING SOMEBODY TO PAY AGAINST HIS WILL DOES NOT BENEFIT THE PAYER BUT THE PAYEE ONLY. SO WHY?

SO YOU CONDONE FORCING PEOPLE TO PAY, like, YOU ALL FORCED WOMEN TO PAY TO ATTEND THE MOSQUE IN INDIA.

EVERYWHERE EVERYBODY IS FORCED TO PAY. FORGET THE OTHER FAITHS. TELL ME WHY ARE THE BOHORIS FORCED TO PAY EACH STEP OF THE WAY.

hur:
Go to Iran where the Ayatuallahs are and see what is required and what is not. Sunnis don't believe in any Imams so they do as they wish and follow the shiekhs they want.

HAVE YOU BEEN TO IRAN. PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS REQUIRED THERE?

SUNNIS MAY NOT BELIEVE IN IMAMS BUT THEY BELIEVE IN THE QUR'AN AND THE PROPHETS. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT FORCED TO PAY ZAKAT BECAUSE THERE IS NO IMAM? BUT SUNNIS DO PAY ZAKAT without being forced.

IMAMS ONLY GIVE DIRECTIVES AND WHETHER PEOPLE AGREE OR NOT IT IS UP TO THE PEOPLE AND THEIR DESTINY BUT THEY DO NOT THREATEN AND HAVE NEVER THREATENED.

hur:
--It is the same way the Dai and those shahzadas who didn't work a day in there lives to live like they do, by the donations of the followers. The only difference is the Dai and shahzadas actually know about Islam and Fatimi heritage and fiqh.

PLEASE REREAD MY POST. I WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT IF THE AGA KHAN DID NOT WORK, HE WOULD NOT HAVE HIS MILLIONS. HE HAS HIS PERSONAL INVESTMENTS AND ASSETS AND HE USES THIS FOR HIS PERSONAL USE. IN THE 80'S THERE WAS AN ARTICLE IN THE ECONOMIST IN WHICH AK'S ADMINITRATIVE OFFICER who waS an Australian EXPLAINED THAT AK'S INVESTMENTS WHICH AMOUNTED TO MILLIONS WERE KEPT APART FROM THE REVENUE FROM TITHE (eNGLISH OF ZAKAT)GIVEN TO HIM BY HIS COMMUNITY AND HE STATED THAT THE TITHE AMOUNT AMOUNTED TO $250 MILLION A YEAR. TITHE MONEY WAS USED FOR DONATIONS TO THE COMMUNITY AND THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, BUILDIGN SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS, ETC. so there is a big difference here. BY THE WAY THE AK SPENDS MORE THAN 250 MILLION A YEAR ON HIS PROJECTS IN THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.

Why do the dai and the shezadas have to live on the donations of the community? Even the Prophet and the Imams did not live on the donations of the community. Isn't Islam all about a balance between the spiritual and material sides?

hur:
Think about what you wrote...25 million ismaili (quoted from their own website) even half give 5% of what they earn to the Agha Khan adds up quickly. And this is still 20 times more than the bohoras.

I DID NOT QUOTE 25 MILLION, You did. Please re-read your and my posts. SO WHAT IF IT IS MORE THAN BOHORAS. Does that justify to FORCE PEOPLE TO PAY. MY PET PEEVE IS WHY FORCE????why threaten????

HUR:
Well so do the shahzada work for the Dai? They manage the jamias, musafir khana, etc. Why is that different or worse.

HOW MANY JAMIAS AND MUSAFIR KHANAS ARE THERE AND HOW MANY SHEZADAS ARE THERE. MUSAFIR KHANAS GENERATE THEIR OWN INCOME AND THEY ARE RUN BY AMILS NOT SHEZADAS. EVEN IF THEY DID IT ISTHEIR DUTY TO RUN THE RELIGIOUS SIDE AS THE HEAD OF THE DAWA. THE PROPHET, MOWLA ALI AND OTHER CALIPHS RAN THE RLIGIOUS MISSIONS BUT THEY ALSO FARMED, RAISED CATTLE,ETC. TO FULFILL THEIR Dunyawi OBLIGATIONS.

AGA KHAN's CHILDREN DO VOLUNTARY WORK FOR THEIR FATHER BY RUNNING SOME OF THE ISMAILI INSTITUTIONS, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO RUNNING THE AK DEVELOPMENT NET WORK, EDUCATIONAL NET WORK FOR THE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, ISLAMIC ARCHITECTURE, ETC. THEY ARE ON THE PAYROLL OF THEIR FATHER.

hUR:And I would remind you that the Agha Khan's daughter married a christian...which even according to Nizari fiqh make her no longer a muslim!

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE NIZARI FIQH OR MUSTALI FIQH FOR THAT MATTER. WHO EXPLAINED YOU THE NIZARI FIQH, THE SAME DAI, WHO CURSES THE SUNNI KHALIFAS AND WHOEVER OPPOSES HIM, IF SO THEN YOU KNOW NOTHING BESIDES WHAT THE JEALOUS DAI AND HIS SHEZADAS TELL YOU AND THEY ARE NO AUTHORITY, BELIEVE ME OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT BE SUBSISTING ON COMMUNITIES DONATIONS. SUBSISTING ON COMMUNITY DONATIONS IS WHAT KIND OF FIQH. ENSLAVING FOLLOWERS IS WHAT KIND OF FIQH. DEMANDING MONEY FOR MARRIAGE, BIG BIG AMOUNTS, AND THREATENING PEOPLE AT EVERY STEP, IS WHAT KIND OF FIQH.

NOW FOR THE HISTORY LESSON. Aga Khan's daughter married a Christian, people of the Book. He is a God fearing person and hence believes in God/. But now for the icing on the cake: Prophet's daughter, Zainab, was married to a kafir. What fiqh applies here? pLEASE ASK YOUR DAI.

Prophet married a Jew, a Coptic Christian - what fiqh applies here.

Imam Moiz or Imam Aziz married an Armenian woman, what fiqh applies here?

Hur:
The only difference is the Dai and shahzadas actually know about Islam and Fatimi heritage and fiqh.

WHAT NONSENSE. IF THEY KNEW THE FIQH THEY WOULD NOT BE FLYING FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY AND LOOTING BOHORAS.

YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT BILLIONS OF MUSLIMS DO NOT KNOW ABOUT ISLAM? and what makes you so sure that the Aga Khan, who is considered an Islamic leader and the direct descendant of the Prophet does not know about Islam and Fatimi heritage. He defended Islam in the wake of 9/11 and well before at the Press Conference in South Africa prior to that. I have not heard dai go on any network to defend Islam? What does he know about Islam?

Please come out of your cocoon and see the world. Read books and when you listen to their sermons double check them in other literature. You have to grow up and open your eyes.

You can hardly read or write English and you pass judgement on other people and lecture people on Islam. Get with it. Please.

Bhai,
Dene wala Deta hai Lene wala leta hai ....
Par Tumharee kyon Jaltee hai ????