Dawoodi Bohra Forum

While Kaaba is claimed to be GOD’s House, there is also Satan’s House not to far from Kaaba in a place called Minna, both of which are nothing but stone houses. By facing towards Kaaba, one then also faces towards Satan’s House.

Are then the Islamic pragmatics and traditional rituals correct to say that the Muslims of the world are "worshipping GOD" or are they simply clever tricks of Satan to lure the majority away from "GOD’s True Path". Are the Muslims of today bowing, prostrating and circumambalating to and around a STONE? Isn't worshipping a stone idolworship?

It is believed that the Muslims take 21 small stones and throw at a bigger STONE considered to be a Satan which resides in another house close to Kaaba in a city named Minna, not to mention that Kaaba itself is nothing but a stone. Does GOD Almighty really live in that stone house and Satan in another, close to each other in Mecca, yet all the Muslims of the world face it and worship them. If Satan is made of fire, how can he burn in the fire? Read the following link and decide for yourselves:
http://www.free-minds.org/Arab_Conspiracy.html

GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE is alone, has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE Glorified.

Danish,
to someone who knows a little about Mecca and Mina...your comments are very odd. It would wise for you to do a little research of what you write...before posting it. What I wrote here may seem vague...but you need to do the research yourself.

Qiyam,

What research are you talking about? One can read and study all they can for there are millions of books out there, including the Quran, by thousands of authors, but there is only one GOD given thing called "Common Sense". Use it and use it wisely.

Concentrate on what I said in my previous post above and read what the author talks about and then use your "head". This is all there is to it.

Here are some more questions to think about:
Were all the previous scriptures in Arabic too? Does GOD Almighty only understands Arabic for all human beings to believe in HIM and nothing else? Do all living creatures including animals and plants speak Arabic, so that GOD can understand it?

Think about it guys. If you consider yourselves truely Muslims and believe in the Oneness of Almighty GOD, then refrain from all idolworship, for there is NO WAY OUT FROM HELL.

GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE is ALONE, has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE Glorified.

Danish,
You are indeed lazy. What I asked you to look into was the fact that the Kaaba is a masjid not just a stone or stone building. It is believed to be the first masjid on earth. Muslims worship in unison to Allah face a single direction...which is the Kaaba. It is the sutra of salat.

Secondly, the jamarah are three stone pillars in Minah (not a building) that represent the three satans that tempted Ibrahim Nabi in the sacrifice of Ismael.

So when you do read even one book about Islam and the Hajj...you may learn this little bit of info.

Again before asking your question with such pomp...maybe you should know the answer from a reliable source:

Were all the previous scriptures in Arabic too? Does GOD Almighty only understands Arabic for all human beings to believe in HIM and nothing else? Do all living creatures including animals and plants speak Arabic, so that GOD can understand it?

---In the time of the other books of revealation...arabic didn't exist. Isa Nabi spoke aramaic, Musa Nabi spoke Hebrew, Ibrahim spoke assyrian. So No arabic is not the language of Allah or official language of Islam...but is it the language of the original Quran.

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The Black Stone---Idol?

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutisla ... ionID=5016

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hy Muslims kiss black stone?

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutisla ... ionID=3005

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Qiyam,

Secondly, the jamarah are three stone pillars in Minah (not a building) that represent the three satans that tempted Ibrahim Nabi in the sacrifice of Ismael.

Only idiots and fools believe in such supertitions. Don't take Satan in your hands to beat Satan? If stones represent Satan, why build GOD's House with it?

The islamonline.net is one such site that don't have logical answers for genuine questions as one may have already noticed. They also believe in Satanic Innovations (ahadiths) and blind-folded beliefs without any proofs.

Use your common sense (both heads - one with double vision and the other cockeyed) with certainty, not guessworks.

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Throwing the Pebbles

( http://www.islamonline.net/English/hajj ... cle7.shtml )

Throwing the pebbles is meant for stoning Satan, may Allah curse him.

The pilgrims return to Mina on the 10th, and throw seven pebbles at a stone pillar that represents the devil. This symbolizes Ibrahim’s (Abraham) throwing stones at Satan when he tried to dissuade him from sacrificing his son, Isma`il. Then the pilgrims sacrifice a sheep, reminiscing the story of Ibrahim, who, in place of his son, sacrificed a sheep that Allah had provided as a substitute.

The devil is a real malicious enemy to mankind in general and Muslims in particular; he wants to fetter and chain them with sins and disobedience and to do what may invalidate their pilgrimage through whispering to them as he tried to whisper to Prophet Abraham (Ibrahim), peace and blessing be upon him. Satan does this only out of his anger and dissatisfaction of the mercies being showered on the pilgrims on that solemn occasion.

For this, throwing the pebbles to stone Satan is a sign of following the act of Prophet Abraham, peace and blessing be upon him, and a way to degrade and humiliate Satan and show him that he is unable to misguide the pilgrim or drag him into the hole of sinning.

No doubt, all these are great pieces of wisdom meant for people who have sound understanding.

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Alhamdolillah I have been to Hajj.

To me throwing stones means my commitment to keep Shaitan stones throw away from me .

Inshah Allah

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Originally posted by Muslim First:
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Alhamdolillah I have been to Hajj.

To me throwing stones means my commitment to keep Shaitan stones throw away from me .

Inshah Allah

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And, at this forum you throw stones at everyone.
A bye-product of 'this great teaching.'

Danish,

Do you take your shoes off when you enter a masjid? Please answer with reference to an ayat from RK's Quran? Thanks.

Muhammad allowed the Arabs to keep this pagan ritual. Hajj and the rituals involved were definitely one of his major concessions that he knew he had to make for this new religion to survive. If he didn’t allow the stone throwing and all the other stuff to be practiced, Islam probably would not be around today because it would have damaged trade so much in the Arabian peninsula that there would be no chance for Islam to gain the power and the following that it did.

If the Arabs were to convert to this new religion of Muhammad they needed a link to their pagan past and Hajj was that perfect link. Just like Christmas is for the Europeans who converted en mass to Christianity.

So if these rituals, like the kissing of the black stone, or throwing the stones at Satan weren’t there … the world probably wouldn’t have heard of Islam.

On the other hand these rituals pose a serious problem for the theology of Islam. E.g. “If a person kisses a rock, and walks around a big stone building asking favors and requesting that his sins be forgiven, and throwing stones at a pillars and calling these pillars Satan, thereby casting away evil; isn’t all this equivalent to shirk?” Well of course it is. .. but Muhammad was such a brilliant tactician that he knew to keep the Hajj pilgrimage and its rituals intact to some degree so that the overall message of his new social order would spread.

But it seems that now the overall message of unity, progressive growth of society and human rights that Muhammad had preached have all but faded away in modern Islam and all we are left with are these empty rituals.

b

Porus,

First of all, I don't believe half the things that RK prophessed.

I used to take footwear off when entering Masjid. I am avoiding going to Masjids altogether as there are numerous contradictions and falsehood taught and instigated. Many Islamic sects seem to have their own private Masjids all over the world, some barring other Muslims from entering, and yet they call it GOD's little houses where pictures of human gods (idols) are framed and pinned on walls, exalted and implored upon and many other forms of 'shirk' and 'bida' promulgates not only in their claimed god houses but also within private homes and religious gatherings.

When GOD Almighty declares that Satan being our most ardent enemy, its incomprehensible to fall into such traps as idolizing Kaaba (a stone house), thus the Satan has duped millions from GOD's True Path and therefore one must avoid all fabricated beliefs and attachments and believe in HIM ALONE.

GOD, there is no god but GOD. HE is Alone, has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE Glorified.

Originally posted by Danish:
Porus,

First of all, I don't believe half the things that RK prophessed.

I used to take footwear off when entering Masjid. I am avoiding going to Masjids altogether as there are numerous contradictions and falsehood taught and instigated. Many Islamic sects seem to have their own private Masjids all over the world, some barring other Muslims from entering, and yet they call it GOD's little houses where pictures of human gods (idols) are framed and pinned on walls, exalted and implored upon and many other forms of 'shirk' and 'bida' promulgates not only in their claimed god houses but also within private homes and religious gatherings.

When GOD Almighty declares that Satan being our most ardent enemy, its incomprehensible to fall into such traps as idolizing Kaaba (a stone house), thus the Satan has duped millions from GOD's True Path and therefore one must avoid all fabricated beliefs and attachments and believe in HIM ALONE.

GOD, there is no god but GOD. HE is Alone, has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE Glorified.

And- this brainwashed moron(DANISH) - the replicate of muslim first avoids questions by throwing stones and then similar to his counterpart - MF, spews quotes from the scripture.

What a spectacle...

Barwani,

Islam probably would not be around today because it would have damaged trade so much in the Arabian peninsula that there would be no chance for Islam to gain the power and the following that it did.

Exactly, its the trade (money in their minds) that the Arabs are after, not Islam, as explained in Aidid Safar's article. Why is there a sudden need for a person to travel thousands of miles and waste hundreds of dollars just to visit a "stone house" and then bow, prostrate, kiss and run around stones simply to believe in GOD? Numerous idolworshippers are simply trampled and killed each year out of mere stupidity, chaos and crowdidness.

Prophet Muhammad could have never instigated such devilish ideas to believe in GOD. Its the people around him and the Satanic Innovations that have led the downfall of Islam, not Muhammad.

If the Arabs were to convert to this new religion of Muhammad they needed a link to their pagan past and Hajj was that perfect link. Just like Christmas is for the Europeans who converted en mass to Christianity.

Very true. This sort of en mass and idolworship is not only found in Islam and Christianity, but all world religions and thus the successful challenge to GOD by Satan the cursed.

So if these rituals, like the kissing of the black stone, or throwing the stones at Satan weren’t there … the world probably wouldn’t have heard of Islam.

Islam started from DAY ONE. One must understand Islam first in its true essense before negating it. Islam is not to throw stones at on one side, and worship another on the other side.

“If a person kisses a rock, and walks around a big stone building asking favors and requesting that his sins be forgiven, and throwing stones at a pillars and calling these pillars Satan, thereby casting away evil; isn’t all this equivalent to shirk?” Well of course it is. ..

You seem to know the facts above and put all the blame on Muhammad for being tactful. This is nothing but Satan's ideas, your wishful thinking and the evildoers who themselves do not believe in GOD ALONE and QURAN ALONE.

But it seems that now the overall message of unity, progressive growth of society and human rights that Muhammad had preached have all but faded away in modern Islam and all we are left with are these empty rituals.

Muhammad's teachings and preachings are all still intact, wide open and very clear. It is the people who have fabricated lies about him, about the Quran, about GOD, about Satan and about themselves. It is they who do not understand and do not want to understand for they have taken the their own wrong paths.

GOD, there is no god but GOD. HE is Alone, has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE glorified.

And- this brainwashed moron(DANISH) - the replicate of muslim first avoids questions by throwing stones and then similar to his counterpart - MF, spews quotes from the scripture.

What a spectacle...

And here comes another "brother" of prophet Muhammad.

Yet another spectacle to watch...

Originally posted by Danish:

And- this brainwashed moron(DANISH) - the replicate of muslim first avoids questions by throwing stones and then similar to his counterpart - MF, spews quotes from the scripture.

What a spectacle...

And here comes another "brother" of prophet Muhammad.

Yet another spectacle to watch...

Your mind must have drawn a blank when you proceeded to write the above.

Here's a compliment to you:
I congratulate you for stealing MF's thunder & his vitriol - his mojo.

After you are gone, the schmuck MF will resume his drivel.

Anything teachings that brings out this behaviour as grandly exhibited by you two have to be from Allah - the grand, the one and all praise be to him.

BISMILLAH HIR RAHMAN NIR RAHIM
I SEEK REFUGE WITH ALLAH THE MOST BOUNTIFUL FROM SHAITAN ACCURSED,

Dear Muslims...,
Peace be unto you and May Allah the Most wise bestow his mercy and blessings on you,

First I would like to start of the matter regarding using Arabic as a linguistic franca to pray to the Almighty.As Allah is the All knowing, he definitely knows all the languages of the world, be it french, spanish, chinese,.......... But Allah the All knowing has revealed the Quranal Hakkim in Arabic and not in spanish, french, chinese.....If the All powerful had willed he could have revealed the Quran in all the languages of the world.Right or wrong???? But the point here is that The most Wise has not done thus. Definitely there is a reason behind it which is beyond our reckoning.I would like to question Danish how could he be so sure that the translation which he has got of the Noble Quran is really the Holy Quran when the translators themselves say
"... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...The book is here rendered almost literally and every effort has been made to choose befitting language. But the result is not the Glorious Qur'an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy. It is only an attempt to present the meaning of the Qur'an-and peradventure something of the charm in English. It can never take the place of the Qur'an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so..." [Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930]
I am sure Danish knows that islam demands equality of all human beings. HEnce by using a common language to pray we develop the notion of Equality
.He has often quoted the following verse from the Quran almost in all his post.Indeed this verse is full of wisdom and it can be made a tool to fight his satanic thoughts back. May Allah the most High guide me on the straight path.Ameen

"And among mankind is he who disputeth concerning Allah without knowledge or guidance or a scripture giving light" NQ 22:8

See how the All knowing exposes people like you

Here is what Allah has got to say about People like Danish.

"Lo! those who disbelieve and [B}bar (men) from the way of Allah and from the Inviolable Place of Worship,[/B] which We have appointed for mankind together, the dweller therein and the nomad: whosoever seeketh wrongful partiality therein, him We shall cause to taste a painful doom."NQ 22:25

This is what Allah says about circumbulating the Kabah,

"And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying: Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration. "NQ 22:26

This is to prove that Allah has commanded the pilgrimage and not the arabic religion

"And proclaim unto mankind the pilgrimage. They will come unto thee on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every deep ravine,"

Anything teachings that brings out this behaviour as grandly exhibited by you two have to be from Allah - the grand, the one and all praise be to him.

Absolutely, positively, certainly.

The rest of all the un-grandly exhibitions are drooped out of your kothari Dais and Syedenas. Such jargans only gets inherited from generation to generation associated with jinnly powers and gets labelled on your foreheads.

I congratulate you for stealing MF's thunder & his vitriol - his mojo.

O my! You got effected too. I should have congratulated to you in advance.

After you are gone, the schmuck MF will resume his drivel.

Prepare for the circumvolution and karo matam, Ya MF, Ya MF,...

Quresh,

There are primitive muslims residing in the Arabian peninsula who still rub their asses with stones and then build houses with them and worship them just because the stones helped them to cleanse themselves.

By the way, did you know that Kaaba, the alleged GOD House, has been re-built several times and a lot of changes has been done to it by humans. Even the Satanic pillars have been re-juvenated for the disbelievers and idolworshippers to continue with their "stone throwing contests" each year, where not the Satan but its followers get killed. You very well know that the disbelievers and idolworshippers from all over the world must pay an "enterance fee" (usually a very high amount), to witness and partake in this contest. The strange thing about this contest is that no one wins and many get sacrificed by other contestants.

Remember GOD is watching and so is the Satan. I seek refuge in GOD from Satan the cursed. GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE is Alone, has no partners and none equals HIM. Be HE glorified.

Danish,

for all my rantings against "ritual" on this board, I must say that you are way off the mark about Hujj. The whole point of rituals are that they are symbols that represent something else, they are in fact another form of language. Because of this, I think it is vital that people try and understand the rituals that they partake in, because without that understanding the rituals lose the greater measure of their meaning and value.

By the same token, however, one can't just claim that a ritual means something to the performer that it does not. If someone performs Hujj, salat, or what have you and sees it as fulfilling a contract with the Almighty, it doesn't suddenly become a godless ritual just because somebody doesn't like it, or disagrees with it.

I have been on Hujj, and some of what I saw I did take issue with. But there is simply no weight to the argument that Hujj ritual is inherently idolatrous - in order to claim that, you would need to establish why individual people go on Hujj and what they think they are doing, and most Muslims will tell you (at least) that they are fulfilling an obligation TO GOD.

barwani,

Whereas I don't find your opinion about the origins of Hujj and Islam unreasonable, I do think they lack support. For one thing, as I've said above, there is nothing about Hujj that runs counter to the grain of Islam, so there is no "concession" in allowing, or telling, Muslims to perform the pilgrimage. Islam in fact inherited much of the culture of the Arabs, down to things like considering the month of Ramadan particularly holy.

Examine your claim about tawaf and the jamarah - why is it "of course" shirk? Shirk is Association - in this context, specifically the association of another with God. The point of the various aspects of Hujj is for the Muslim to reenact various moments in history, and to give him a spiritual connection with these past events and the people that lived them - Adam, Abraham, the Prophet, and so on.

Remember: Hujj, among other things, is a ritual about redemption and a ritual about unity, and it has not only a spatial (Muslims from all over the world) but a temporal quality (Muslims throughout time). We are susceptible to the sins, the mistakes, and the challenges of our ancestors, and we must remember them, and through these rituals commemorate their victories and renew the vigor of our jihad. Beyond that, we remind ourselves that we are striving to be one people, not only with our contemporaries but with those who preceded us and with those who will come as well.

The ritual of Hujj has a great deal of depth, and is meaningful and pertinent to the Islamic message; it cannot simply be written off as a calculated attempt to connect the Arabs with their pagan heritage.

salaam

Islam did not inherit anything from anybody. Why do you think the pagan arabs considered the month of ramadan holy? Why do you think the pagan arabs circumabulated the kaaba? All this was before Islam. These were what remained of the religion as originally sent by the lord almighty. All these were always part of the religion, only altered by people. The pagans used to go around the kaaba naked, you could wear clothes only if you had purchased them from certain arabs of mecca. An alteration to benefit people.

Islam just removed the dirt that had gathered on their rituals.

Khairan,

Your points are well established and meaningful only to the extent of your "blind belief" and not that you know for certainty what exactly happened. Though one thing and only one thing comes into play, WHY A STONE HOUSE?

GOD Almighty has condemned and commanded us to denounce all forms of idolworship,
including "worshipping" of humans, aliens, jinns, stones and all tangible products whatsoever. Isn't Kaaba a stone house, a tangible product? Think naturally with an open mind, not what has been said and what we've been taught without certainty.

Does Quran explain about Salaat? NO.
Does Quran explain about Zakat as 2.5% of net income? NO.
Does Quran explain about Hajj, Umrah, Jamarrah? NO.
What did people "worship" before Abraham and Ishmail supposedly built a house of stone for his people to worship it?

What is then the true meaning of the words above that really makes sense? A plain simple common sense.

Is there a mandatory rule or condition implemented by the Arabs, called Shahadah, in order to believe in GOD? If you don't say the Shahadah and yet believe in HIM with you heart, mind and soul and do all the righteous deeds, would HE still condemn you and put you
behind "bars"? Why GOD tells us that Arabs are the worst in disbief, more than the Jews and Christians and here your are, their followers? What is happening in the Arab World today and the so-called Muslims in general, comes to no surprise?

GOD commands us to refrain from all conjecture, falsehood, other sources of laws (hadiths), idolworship, he-said/she-said dogmas and yet you "think" that GOD has decreed upon us a ritual act of bowings, prostrations and circumambulations towards a "stone house". This sort of idolworship is fine with GOD? Why would HE make such an exception? Common sense tells us that it is not GOD, but humans who have twisted the words of GOD to give it a different meaning altogether and thus making a whole new concept of a "religion". Thus we have Hinduism, Judaism, Budhism, Christianity, Islam. What happened to that ONE UMMAH and how did it ever got divided?

I have been to Mecca, Medina, Karbala, Najjaff, Cairo, and other middle eastern cities where I performed Umra and ziarats of the martyrs, the Dais and other leaders, with my parents when I was a teenager and personally visited India (Ahmedabad, Surat, Galiakot, Jamnagar and other places) as well. I know exactly where you are coming from for I too was once in your shoes questioning others reluctantly and many a time infuriated. I have personally met Burhanuddin and the late Tahir Saifuddin and many of their well known "chamchas". I am thankful to GOD Almighty that I am out of this miserable idolatrous community.

you could wear clothes only if you had purchased them from certain arabs of mecca. An alteration to benefit people.

Islam just removed the dirt that had gathered on their rituals.

Maybe, Danny boy has a point. A very pious Sunni muslim who performs Hajj regularly now has to book a room in one of the Saud hotels, and upon paying several $$$ per night, he doesn't know how many bunkers will be in this room until he shows up. If he doesn't register, no visa from the Sauds.....

...yet another alteration to benefit people.

...maybe, perhaps, this whole thing is a scam ?

Well, that is what you think, and you will end up where you will and I will end up where I will.

Most intelligent statement you have made to date...

I agree.....