Dawoodi Bohra Forum

In the interest of offering something constructive rather than the usual negative griping/belly-aching that so often characterizes this board, please consider the following:

"muslim" recently pointed out on several different threads that -- unlike traditional Ismailism -- the Dawa today is no longer actively "proselytizing". This unfortunately is true; and whatever else your differences are, both Syedna loyalists & reformists may share the blame for this.

All of you have become too absorbed within the current "Ethnic parameters" of your community to really care about being relevant to the rest of the world! Let me suggest a hypothetical construct of what a more "user friendly" worldwide Mission might look like:

1.)The "Jazira Khadra" -- a strictly "symbolical" designation for the domain of the Imam and his Hujja, wherever they are actually located in the world today.

2.)The "Jaziras of Day" -- the Dawoodi-bohra mission, in all of the locations where they are currently established.

3.)The "Jaziras of Night" --"jaziras" where there is not currently an accessible Dawoodi-bohra establishment (including some very extensive parts of both the U.S. and Canada). Perhaps an initially non-dogmatic network of devotional centers (on the Sufi model) could be set up as a "Doorway" for potential mumineen who (like myself) are drawn to the spiritual heritage and practice of Ismailism. Such folks in many instances would be seeking for an "Alternative" to the literal and fundamentalistic readings of Scripture, that are taking over in Christianity and Judaism as well as Sunni Islam.

Remember, the bottom-line here is growth and worldwide revitalization of a very "unique" traditional Mission! (Anyone who would rather pursue this discussion off of the board may reach me at: rasulredoy@yahoo.com).

I am very interested to see who the "true" progressives are!

Rasul,
before one can grow with the spiritual level, one must understand the starting point to grow from. Maybe you could establish this for us.

Rasul,
before one can grow with the spiritual level, one must understand the starting point to grow from. Maybe you could establish this for us.

Thanks for your reply, Hur. Could you clarify your question abit -- do you mean the starting point for organizational growth, or the starting point of one's convictions?

"muslim" recently pointed out on several different threads that -- unlike traditional Ismailism -- the Dawa today is no longer actively "proselytizing". This unfortunately is true; and whatever else your differences are, both Syedna loyalists & reformists may share the blame for this.

What with all the baraat, misaq, taxes, and other such nonsense going on, how can we possibly attract outsiders? The community needs to reform within first before it can even think about proselytizing.

This may not be a luxury available to you if you are a true Mission. Certainly dais on the run, "in the old days", could not cop out with a line like this! You are either there or you aren't...as I'm sure intellects who are capable of grasping this (like you) realize.

Rasul,
Actually I meant both but in the order of conviction first and organization second.

Conviction has been so maligned and hypocritical by both orthodox and reformist...it's hard to say what is correct. I've look through this site. Most of the orthodox and reformist know little about what correct and what is not....at least both keep arguing about it. So there is little correct conviction. Without this...you cannot have organization.

You comments.

Prophet Muhammad as the Natiq was the originator of the Dawah.

Mawlana Ali, as the Asas of the Natiq, was the Base and Regent of the Dawah. Upon his demise, he transferred his authority to the Imams of his descent.

The Dawah must then be headed by the legitimate Ismaili Imam.

In this Imam's absence, the Dawah must be run by the Bab of the Imam. The Bab being the Imam's sole viceregent and deupty.

In each region or territory, the Bab of the Imam is represented by a Hujjah. There are 12 manifest Hujjahs and 12 concealed Hujjahs.

The Bab himself can also be called a Hujjah, but he is the Supreme Hujjah.

Under each Hujjah of a region, there are 30 Dais, which are also ordered in rank.

First comes the Dai al-Balagh.
After him comes the Dai al-Mutlaq, the Dai with unrestricted authority in his particular mission.
Then comes the Dai Mahsur, the Dai with restricted authority.

After the Dais come the "masters". First, there is the Madhum Akbar, or the higher master, who receives the oath of allegiance.
Then comes the Madhum Mahsur, or the limited master, whose function is to attract souls to the appeal.

Here's the problem....

For some inexplicable reason, in the Bohra version of the Period of Concealment, the Imam, the Bab, and all 12 Hujjahs have gone into concealment. This is highly irregular and has no past precedent. The Bohras are only left with a Dai al-Mutlaq, but according to past precedent, his authority is only over one particular region or jazirah. I do not believe that the Bohra Dawah can function without the proper leadership of an Imam, a Bab, or at least a Hujjah.

In no time has this earth been without the prescence of at least a Hujjah of the Imam. Something is definitely wrong with the status of the Bohra mission..or lack thereof..in today's world.

Ismailite and Rasul,

"For some inexplicable reason, in the Bohra version of the Period of Concealment, the Imam, the Bab, and all 12 Hujjahs have gone into concealment. This is highly irregular and has no past precedent."

--Again I reiterate the misinformation of ismailis (bohra or otherwise). During the time of the first satr of the Imam...the bab and hujjah were in seclusion with the Imam...thus there is precedent. The Dais of various jazirahs reported to the Imam respectively either physically or through ilham (visions).

"The Bohras are only left with a Dai al-Mutlaq, but according to past precedent, his authority is only over one particular region or jazirah."

--Actually it were the Hujjah who are in authority of a jazirah. The Imam Amir taught the last strong hold of the Fatimi Imam...Yemen...of the consolidation of the dawat through the Dai al'mutlaq, madhun and mukasir...while the Imam, Bab and Hujjah were in seclusion.

"In no time has this earth been without the prescence of at least a Hujjah of the Imam."

-Actually during the first satr, all the hudud except for the Dais were in seclusion with the Imam. The Dai is in fact Hujjah of the Imam in Satr.

Again I reposed my original conflict of a conviction.

Hur and Ismailite,

Please bear in mind that I am sincerely solicitous in my desire to see a renewal and blooming of the Mission. At the same time I confess there are already some tuggings of despair for me as I see how very little the orthodox and reformist people who participate on this board actually seem to "care", or have the "higher taste" that is requisite to maintaining a vision! As you put it Hur, "without conviction...you cannot have organization." I have yet to see any evidence of a "collective" bohra ability/or desire to climb out of the dirty little cockpit of your "infighting" to consider that a world at large might actually be interested in your teachings! Instead it seems I'm being told, before I even get to the door, "Sorry...there's no room in the inn"; in other words "Go away...we don't want you here. We're having too much fun smearing each other!"

"During the time of the first satr of the Imam...the bab and hujjah were in seclusion with the Imam...thus there is precedent. The Dais of various jazirahs reported to the Imam respectively either physically or through ilham (visions)."

- This is not correct. During the Satr of Imam Ismail and his descendants, the Imams were represented by the Babs - Maymun al-Qaddah and his son Abdullah bin Maymun. Later on, Said al-Kahir was the Bab. Also, there were Hujjahs in each jazirah conducting the mission and transmitting information to the dais.
"
-Actually during the first satr, all the hudud except for the Dais were in seclusion with the Imam. The Dai is in fact Hujjah of the Imam in Satr."

- The Dai is only a Dai al-Mutaliq. He is not even at the level of Dai al-Balagh, the chief dai. What is the point of the higher ranks of Bab and Hujjah going into concealment, when they are Imam's representatives?

Ismailite,
"..the Imams were represented by the Babs - Maymun al-Qaddah and his son Abdullah bin Maymun."

--Actually, both Maymun and Abdullah travelled with Imam Muhammad bin Ismail in seclusion from Medina to Farghana. The Hujjahs still directed the other Dais secretly and secertly reported to the Imam in such fashion.

"The Dai is only a Dai al-Mutaliq. He is not even at the level of Dai al-Balagh, the chief dai. What is the point of the higher ranks of Bab and Hujjah going into concealment, when they are Imam's representatives?"

--the Dais were the ones that had direct contact with the community...the vast majority of the community never met the Bab or Hujjahs. In satr, even more so. These person were guards of the Imam and his most trusted people...of course they would go into seclusion with them. And as I said..there is precedent.

Just for clarification...I am referencing both kitabs Siratul Jafar and the Istiqar al'Imam.

Rasul,

"Instead it seems I'm being told, before I even get to the door, "Sorry...there's no room in the inn"; in other words "Go away...we don't want you here. We're having too much fun smearing each other!"

--I personally do not believe this. I know three people within my own jamat who were christian that came into the Dawat....and not by marriage. I always see other faith in our jamat for functions and such. Most don't preach...because they don't know enough of their own faith to preach. Is this the fault of the organization? Yes and no. The organization doesn't push people to preach...but let's face it..after finishing madrassa, few even try or want to.

And your right, we bicker on the heresay and on everyone else...few actually DO anything to correct the situation. It's like falling into a stuper!

Maymun and Abdullah may have been running around from place to place, but they still met up with the Dais and dispensed knowledge.

Also, in those times, there was no chief Dai al-Mutaliq for the whole Ismaili community. Each Dai operated in a certain jurisdiction.

According to history, the Imams and the Hujjahs, although concealed were still present on the earth, and there were even reports of dais and their meetings with the Imams.
These reports covered about 200 years of Satr.

Yet, in the current period, which has lasted almost 800 years, there are no reports of anyone meeting the Imam. The dai does not even meet the Imam in person, even though this happened in the last Satr.

Ismailite,

"Maymun and Abdullah may have been running around from place to place, but they still met up with the Dais and dispensed knowledge."

--Yes they did to a degree...but the vast majority time the did. It is report in one historical work, that the Dais (refered to as hujjahs) were so worry because they had lost contact with their Imam for so long and went in search of him. They eventually found the Imam in Salamiya...however the Imam required them not to reveal his location to anyone.

"Also, in those times, there was no chief Dai al-Mutaliq for the whole Ismaili community. Each Dai operated in a certain jurisdiction."

-this is also correct...but you see this is something instituted by Imam Amir to the Dai Lamak and Walid in Yemen and started in place by Sayidna Malika.

"According to history, the Imams and the Hujjahs, although concealed were still present on the earth, and there were even reports of dais and their meetings with the Imams."

--These reports arose only year after the Imam come out of satr, not during the satr. And the reports were known only to the Dai...not the community. It is part of the Bohra aqidah that the Imam and his hudud are physically on this earth.

correction:

"--Yes they did to a degree...but the vast majority time the did."

this should be:

--Yes they did to a degree...but the vast majority time the did NOT.

Hur and Ismailite, do you have any comments on the "jaziras of Night" I proposed? Now I realize this is not a "perfect" facsimile of your 12 manifest Hujjahs (Day) and 12 concealed Hujjahs (Night), Ismailite. But I never pretended it was a perfect model; just a "jumping off point" for some mission activity to take place in the vast areas where presently there is none! All it would really take is one householder in a "non-Bohra" area -- such as myself -- agreeing to observe the teaching/devotional guidelines provided by an authorized teacher or mullah, and holding initially public "open houses" in his area. As for the readier acceptance of a devotional "sufi" approach in areas currently suspicious (and rightly so!) of Islamic fundamentalism , I found some enlightening comments in an article about the Nizari poet Khaki Khorasani: "In a very hostile environment, the Ismailis practised and propagated their faith using the cloak of Sufism, up to the dawn of the nineteenth century. In the process a quite important Sufi-Ismailite literature was born. This junction of Ismailism and Sufism would have been unthinkable if both did not have a common source. In fact, the theology of Sufism revives nearly in its entirety, the metaphysical doctrine of Ismailism (Haqa'iq)." When it comes to matters of the Spirit a little Art never hurts; and perhaps it is this very ability to respond "creatively" to the Creator that the Bohra psyche has lost?

Rasul,
to say infact...many scholars have practiced this before. The doctrines of Fatimi Ismailis are very well ground in sources both in their own texts and in other sects texts. This is why most sunni have difficulty agruing with shias because they can reference the same beliefs from the other sects reference texts.

I've used the method of practicing my faith in sunni mosques for several years...without mentioning the name of my tariqah. The leaders of these mosques think I am an ideal muslim and use me as an example to others.

Now, according to the Fatimi principles, I would be considered an average (sometimes below average) mumin.

By this method, I promote qualities and beliefs of the Fatimis to sunnis by practice and reason. Some may say this is wrong (underhanded), but the qualities and beliefs are clearly from the sunnah...so they cannot find anything against it...its just they never knew it was there!

Rasul,

I have asked this same question and the answer offered to me was that the Bohra dawat is intended to be a custodian of Islam until the Imam returns. Bohras are apparently charged with "preserving" the mission rather than spreading it.

I am not satisfied with this answer, but there you have it...

salaam

I agree Khairan.

What is the purpose of preserving it towards the end?

What I see is this just myth created by someone for selfish reason. We fools are accepting this.

What is the Bohra's contribution in passing the universal message to all. That is the mission of Prophet Muhammed.Isn't it?

We are not doing this. We close our doors of Islam for others to enter . Nothing is convincing others in our way for an outsider. I personnal face lot of criticm .Wherelse Sunni's are convincing others analalytically and systemetically and scientically and you see many non Muslims have become Muslim all over the world.

Have you watched any of Dr. Zakir Naik's lecture series : www.irf.net.

What have we achived? Be honest.I am not a Sunni but for me they are doing a great job.We will be asked by Allah. Sydna will not come to rescue us. Infact I don't know what would be his condition then after doing all these attrocities.

Muhsin.

I think the first step for all of us is to understand why we believe in what we do. Because we were just born in that particular faith, or do we have a sound reason. Most of us are born in families and adhere to that faith, but that is not Allah's way of showing path. In addition, when most of us ask questions similar to this, we always find answers that suit our needs and never bother to look at other points of views.

Christians are born with the thought that they will go into Paradise, same for Jews. We believe that they are incorrect and they claim the same for us. Avoiding the discussion of who is right and who is wrong, I have no assurity that on the Day of Judgment I will be standing in front of Allah, and why He cannot say that I did not research my faith and ended up in a terribly wrong one! That can happen and will happen with most of the people, only a few will be right.

God has given us more than just where we are born, and I think I agree that our salvation lies not in blindly accepting what our forefathers taught us. That was said to Prophet Ibrahim, and Prophet Muhammad (sws) and other prophets by the disbelievers. The quality that distinguished believers from disbelievers was only the fact that belivers earnest searched for truth, removed all biases and preconceived notions and when they found it, they accepted it. While on the other hand, the disbelievers always found reasons justifying their own beliefs in order to prove themselves. The difference between two approaches is what demarcates the two kinds of beliefs.

Therefore, it is my belief that God guides those who use reasoning, want to find truth, and indulge in the effort earnestly. Once one is convinced of something, they can present it to others. However, if one adheres to one belief only because of their birth and their fathers, there is no guarantee that they are on the right track, even though told by the people they live with and by their scholars and everyone, for they always tell them that everyone is on the right path.

Therefore, my life objective is to keep searching for truth and asking Allah that I die in the right state, not in the state I was born in.

Allah Hafiz.

Hur, Khairan, Muhsin, Musalmaan: I appreciate your input. As you've all pointed out in your own ways, it's not very likely that I can become "one of you", given the total lack of interest in possible converts like me! May I offer for your consideration two very different ways the future of the "Bohra Mission" can go? 1.) It can become like the Druzes, who believe that Imam Hakim went into occultation or concealment. They will not accept any new converts until He comes back, so they are in effect a "closed shop" or closed union, i.e., no growth! 2.) On the other hand, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas also believe that their founder, Chaitanya, went into occultation; but they have energetically preached their mission throughout India and the West, thereby gaining many many new converts in all parts of the world.

Dear Rasul Redoy,

I have in no way implied that you should become what I am. That was not my aim. In fact, I am pointing towards our beliefs the way we are born. We just believe that whatever our faith is, it is the correct one. And we will die believing this. The only reason for our being Muslim, or being Bohra or Shi'a or Sunni is just because we were born that way and we have all the reasons and arguments from our fathers for us, why ours is the correct faith.

All I say is that everyone has to answer the basic question of how does God guide people to the path of His liking? Does He make them get birth in such families? What about others then?

Obviously, there has to be a way, and what I propose is that everyone must always keep searching for the truth, whether it comes from someone we like or hate. If it is the truth we should accept it.

As a result, I only present my points of views and provide reasons for why I believe in them. I encourage everyone to look out and accept that which they genuinly believe is the truth, not because they were born in that faith. If that were the case, no one would ever convert.

I hope this explains my stand well.
Regards

And it is also implied that you may end up having differences of opinion from me for instance, but if you genuinly believe that to be the truth, then my stand is that you should follow what you bevieve to be correct and not believe in what my understanding of God and religion is.