Why are Bohras so cowardice?

[S. Insaf]

Since last many years I have been wondering about the psychic of Dawoodi Bohras. Far away from their localities in planes, in trains and buses why are they so afraid to talk about happenings in the community, even when there are no Bohras around? Bohras are traders therefore they do not like confrontation. Agreed. But where is confrontation in talking or reading about happenings in private? I have met and noticed this fear in highly educated and wealthy Bohras too.
Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer says “the fear psychic is due to firstly oppressive regime of Abbasid and later oppressive treatment of Sunni Muslim rulers in India. In such circumstances it was demanded from every Ismaili and Dawoodi Bohras to form a close network and completely submit to the authorities unquestioningly. No dissent was permitted. There is no culture of openness and democratic discussions. Most of the Bohras fall in line for fear of social boycott and for fear of loosing sense of belonging. A trading community values peace above all and is most reluctant to involve itself in social and religious conflicts. Most of the Bohras continue to live in joint families thus subjected to family discipline. Thus individual member has no courage to take open stand for consequences within the family. Bohras have lived with persecution mania for centuries and modernity has not struck roots in themâ€

[anajmi]

Bohras have everything to loose by going against the Syedna. They believe that their here and hereafter are dependent on the syedna. All the syedna and his oppressive regime have to do is cross the fine line.

When the bohras have nothing to loose, they will rise up in revolt.

Take an example of Iraq. The Iraqis lost everything, first to the dictator Saddam supported by the Americans and then finally what little was left, including electricity and clean drinking water to the Americans themselves. We see what is happening over there and as a result over here. God's representative on earth - Bush, lies exposed in front of the world.

[Carl]

One reason, among many others, and there are many,:

'excommunicating' non-corfomists who donn't conform (bow down) to the bigotary of the clergy, a policy that bears a great burden, not only to us who have been, but to all their family members too which is the hardest part to deal with.

The sad part is it has affected parents, but the good part is one now has a total freedom and peace of mind to pursue a religion devoid of these idiotic bindings.

and what with colorful IDs given away to those who lick yhen get the best. so the best is not to have any ID.

[jamanpasand]

There are two aspects, one is physical and other is social.
Physical aspects relate to the weak genetics i.e. marriages in close circles and further no conversion from other communities in the last several centuries.
Social aspects relates to non-existence of social justice system in India and Pakistan – where most bohras live. How many times the legal system have punished the Kothari’s culprits. Even the murderers escaped any punishment. The politicians and the judiciary can be bribed and purchased very cheaply. In these circumstances it is hard to take open opposition.
On the other hand the Kotharis have done their home work right for their objectives. They understand the weaknesses and strike those weaknesses. The most venerable are the woman folks – sisters, mothers and wives. The women mentally are not ready to face a social boycott, as majority is housewife with no alternate source of socializing. Marriage and death boycotts are again major threats.
Another reason is lack of education. The only thing there, time and again is GANNU JEWO GANNU JEWO. The have made their majlis – a place to sleep and eat. Bayan is a sleeping time and they wake up when they hear the noise of YA HUSSAIN, YA HUSSAIN--- at that point they realize that jaman time is up.
They have used the evening and weekend maderassa effectively. It has become
perfect place to brain wash young minds.
In my opinion, it is impossible for a group of progressive to fight against the power and wealth of kothar. In the last century, we have seen two open rebellions. First, the legal cases against Tahir Saifuddin in 1920s and other was the rebellion in Udaipur of 1970s. Let us admit frankly that in both cases the Kothar has come out stronger than before.
So there are two options for the progressive either to live in their own circle, if there is circle big enough for social gathering or to join hand with like minded sect like Ishna- Ishri.
The only hope for a reform is a revolt within the kothar ranks itself. Again, that reform will be short lived as Asghar Engineer has said somewhere.

[Kaka Akela]

In olden days there would have been at least 5-8 dais in 94 years. however, immediate past 94 years have seen the reign of only 2 dais. This is a long time to shape, mold and entrench the flock with practices that were never done before. The jamea educated na-laaiqs have prostituted themselves to the heirarchy of shahzadas,Aamils and are literally and actually used as their personal slaves, some of them accept assignments as the nannies for their little ones, because they know that these people are the ones who control their livelihood.Ilm & knowledge has no value these days, only birth in bhaisaheb mafia counts as the highest rank. All of them together(shahzadas, aamils and jamea educated na-laaiqs) have created an atmosphere of fear and terror in peoples heart by punishing anyone severely if they question. Because they are sure nothing will be found out by
the dai and no one among them will suffer. Shadazas are their firewall.The Dai is used as a smoke screen, they do what they want to do and collect as much money as they want by saying " al Vazarat si farman aayu chey".If dai gets sick we are tortured with long prayer session, if he gets well then we are tortured with "khushi ni darees" and contributions for khushi na jamans. Dai is doing his job of preaching nomally but everytime he utters a word, all jamaats are sent a video and we all have to get together to listen to his"doaee Kalemaat" and eat jamans and donate more monies.
Monies that are collected are way over the expenses and there is never any accounting, if you refuse to contribute then you are socially boycotted, it is happening a lot out here in Texas and I am sure it happens all over the USA. all these Aamils it seems have a website of their own protected with a password,called al Vazaratus Saifiyah" , on this website all the farmaans of torture and abuse are issued by the shahzadas and it is uniform in all jamaats.
Now coming to the original point of discussion, as to why Bohras are timid in speaking out?? I ask you, wouldn't you be intimidated with all power and might in punishing displayed by these crooks if you were in any jamaat????? People don't want to rock the boat of their life because they know that the dai is right, teachings of the religion are right, religious practices of the religion are right, the only wrong things are the crooks in between themselves and the dai. As they say, you don't throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. So we suffer the crooks.

[Muslim]

There are three types of orthodox Bohras.

The first kind is the willing and obedient slave, the abde or amate sayedna. He believes his existence, his salvation and every aspect of his life depends on Sayedna. He names his children as Sayedna wishes, pays all the taxes without much questioning and genuinely believes Sayedna is the key to door of paradise and owes his life and soul to him. Every other sentence he speaks includes the words "maula ni dua thi" and wishes he could speak dawat-ni-zaban more fluently. He will not discuss corruption in the community because he believes it is either non-existent or extremely rare, and in any case none of his business. He secretly wishes he had the word Sheikh before his name and NKD after it. He dreams of sleeping at Maula's feet. He is not really a coward, he is simply brainwashed and loves it because it means he doesn't have to think much.

The second type is the reluctant participant. He complains and gossips a lot about every aspect of the community but also feels there is nothing in the world he can do about it all. He has lots of stories of people who did some 'brave things'. He doesn't like paying the
extortionate wajebaat, but his daughter or son is now of mithaq age or ready for marriage so he doesn't want any "problems". He is generally a little better educated and open minded than his abde counterpart, but refuses to believe Sayedna is responsible for any of the mess in the community. He attributes the corruption to the large extended family, amils, unelected jamaat officials and vested interests. But generally he believes Sayedna is an angel and a victim of the wider kothar. He criticises and takes an interest in the community but is careful never to suggest Sayedna has any responsibility in that. He likes attending the mosque, mostly for social reasons, but hopes it has some ultimate spiritual benefit too. He has no interest in getting heavily involved in the community but neither does he want to leave because its the only community he has ever known and he fears the baraat could isolate him. He is a coward.

The third type is a rare kind. He may or may not know much about religion, but knows the kothar is a scam. If he has not had a rough encounter with a kothari it is either because he is too busy playing golf or on business trips or studying for that MBA or he just can't be arsed wasting his precious time with losers. Most likely he has had the privilege of a higher education and has actually made use of it. He may pay the minimum sabeel or wajebat because he doesn't want to completely lose his connection with the community and he may appear in the mosque once or twice a year on laylatul qadr or ashura. His religion is personal to him and doesn't like lecturing or being lectured about it. He is no coward but he is no reformist either. He just doesn't care.

[jamanpasand]

Muslim

Excellent categorization. I looked in the mirror and found myself in one.
I used to call myself a progressive but now as per you, I am an orthodox .
By the way, how would you define a progressive ?

[anajmi]

I believe the person in the second category has the greatest probability of turning over and bringing about reform.

[jamanpasand]

ANAJMI

The second category is of coward.

Buddy, think before you utter or just keep you mouth shut.

[jamanpasand]

ANAJMI

The second category is of cowards.

Buddy, think before you utter or just keep your mouth shut.

[jamanpasand]

baburao

You pills are not working.
Please prescribe a stronger dose.

[anajmi]

jamanpasand,

I used to call myself a progressive but now as per you, I am an orthodox .

Let me see, since you are here, that means you not in the last category - one who does not care.

You are also not in the first category - brainwashed.

So I have to conclude that you are a coward!!

[accountability]

dear insaf: if you look into the history and men's mentality, it consists of two distinctive categories, beast and prey, there are instances of alternating but neither is a permanent creature. the beastality is subject to the weakness of the prey, the prey can become a beast if he believes that he can sundue the beast or if he is sure that he is more powerful than the beast, or if the prey is confident that the beast is unable to harm him. excluding all the above factors, the prey and beast relationship lies in the state of fear. fear plays the most important role, specially the fear of unknown. all the religion prey on men's fear of unknown. intellectually speaking, all mankind has an utmost desire to be immortal, immortality is the final goal, religions made their inroads into this very desire, since times unknown, even in pre historic era, there was glimpse of life hereafter. now that we are a selfish creature, and we want to attain the utmost goal of immortality, then our own selfish being makes us believe in any theory that may get this.
if we apply the above to our community, then what the religious hierarchy has done, is to mix fear and greed together blend in a very special cocktail, allow this to mature by mere repeating the same slogan for so many times and so long, that one just gets addicted to it, hulicinating for ever, like a drug addict knows the harm of being addicted, but for un known reasons he tempts to use, our cowardice or what ever you may call it, does not lie in our close knit family or social ties, people are afraid of social bycot and excommunications, but in my opinion what plays the more important role is syedna saheb 's manipulative and exploitative methods of blending together the fear and greed. they are masterfully explointing our fear of unknow, and simultaneously making us believe that he can deliver the immortality and heavenly luxury for ever. if we ever have to come free of their clutch, we are to educate the people that their fear of unkown is no better or worse than others, and syedna saheb if cannot perform miracles for himself or for his off springs how can he promise the heavenly luxury for ever to the followers, if he could not save his daughter from cancer, and she died in aga khan hospital in karachi, or if he has divine power then he does not have to ask for money and worldly thing from his own followers, but he could deliver it to them on the basis of his divine power. a mass media awareness campaign can get very good results.

[tahir]

At the cost of sounding outrageous I would say that the institution of marriage has to go. It is the root of all slavery. Females are genetically predisposed for seeking security and social approval. Once in a permanent marital bond, by hook or crook, they try to keep their menfolk within the bounds of confirmism and they succeed most of the times. This phenomenon is more profound in the close knit community like that of bohras where an arranged marriage is actually a marriage between two families rather than two individuals.

As anajmi said, you can achieve anything if you have nothing to loose. In a marital bond, you have everything to loose if you choose to take on kothar (unless your woman is an equal rebel and is prepared to sacrifice). Bohras are too material to care for "hereafter" and everything that is "here" is centered around woman. As they say A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush . Sayedna knows this well and therefore always insists on early marriages.

Things might be slightly different out there in the US but you folks are too scattered and busy to unite up agaisnt kothar. The masses live in India and nothing significant can happen without involving them.

[S. Insaf]

The issue that I am going to raise. I know that it is a very sensitive issue and it has many centuries psychological back up. So I earnestly request my friends and also my enemies to restrain themselves and think over it.
I have great respect for Imam Husain and drive a lot of inspiration from his life and death to fight against injustices of Kothar. But after a long experience I have come to the conclusion, (and please note this is my personal opinion and nothing to do with the policies of reform movement), that the repeated exaggerated bayan of victimization (mazlumiyat) of Imam Husain and other martyrs of Karbala for 10 days of Moharram and for every now and then has worsen the mentality of Bohras. There is hardly any bayan of their firmed stand against tyranny and injustices and of actual purpose of their martyrdom. I have seen even Daiz-Zaman getting exited while describing how Imam Husain was butchered, “butha khanjar thi bar ragda lagawiyaâ€

[Muslim]

Jamanpasand and anajmi,

Stop fighting and or I’ll create categories for message board personalities!

I actually hadn’t thought of which type of orthodox Bohra has a greater probability of bring about reform, but it’s an interesting observation.

‘Progressives’ and ‘reformists’ by definition seek continuous change. The ‘orthodoxy’ in contrast prefer the status quo and established authority. However, these definitions on their own mean nothing without an elaboration of exactly what you seek to change.

For example, for some Muslims, the term ‘Progressive Islam’ is problematic because they see Islam as inherently progressive. There are those who call themselves ‘Progressive Muslims’ who allegedly seek to change the rites of divinely ordained worship (e.g. Amina Wadud) rather than simply bring about social reform.

[anajmi]

S. Insaf,

That is an excellent analysis. You only hear about the death of the Imams, never their lives or the lives of the prophets and the sahabas. They want to show that if Imam Hussein had won the war, Islam would've lost which is a lot of bull. From a different perspective, even though Imam Hussein lost, 95% of the ummah still remained Sunnis!!

[anajmi]

In fact, I think if Imam Hussein had won the war, 100% of the muslims would've been Sunnis. The hidden Imams, the Dais, the maatams, the jamans (and jamanpasands) would've been non-existent.

I think for the kothar, the thought of Imam Hussein being victorious is probably unbearable.

[porus]

Cowardly Bohras is just an instance of the perversity of the humankind. They worship those or that which display qualities that are opposite to what they themselves possess.

Bohras worship Husain and his courage. Bohras are cowards.

Americans worship democracy. Americans are undemocratic and possibly fascist.

Hindus worship Mahtama Gandhi and his message of peace. Hindus are one of the most violent people on earth.

Sunnis worship Islam and tolerance of women in their societies. Afghanis and Pakistanis, who pride themselves on being the most Islamic, would not let their women go unaccompanied for fear of being attacked by their Muslim brothers.

Muslims worship tolerance of their faith. They are some of the most bigoted people on earth. You only need to notice Wahabis and Pakistani maulvis screaming hatred against Muslim minorities in their midst.

Muslims worship Quran (O, I know they say they worship Allah!). Yet Quran has one simple message you can read in every Sura. Worship me and you will experience gardens under which rivers flow else I will consign you to eternal fire. Yet msot Muslims are besotted with material rat race and are admired for their wealth by their leaders who would dearly love to seperate them from their wealth.

[anajmi]

It is time the Muslims cleaned up their acts. The muslims are suffering today because they have given up on the message of Allah and have become materialistic.

porus,

I am not sure how I am worshipping the quran even though I say that I am worshipping Allah. And how that concludes that I am actually not worshipping Allah? Can you clarify please? Notwithstanding the fact that the quran is Allah's word!!

[anajmi]

I mean we just passed the month of Ramadan and I made a lot of dua and not once did I say - "O Quran, I want a new Ferrari or at least a BMW". I always said - "O Allah, I want a new Ferrari or at least a BMW".

[mumu]

Mr. InSAAP,

There is hardly any bayan of their firmed stand against tyranny and injustices and of actual purpose of their martyrdom.

You mean to say that in bayan they dont tell the actual purpose of Martyrdom. DO you attend the bayans in Moharram ?
Oh i forgot you dont listen others you yourself does it for your reformist (taavill ka bayan).
But really if you would have attended you would not have given such comments. And you call yourself a good historian then you must be knowing this story of Prophet Mohammed (SAW). Please dont mind the actual wording as much i know i am writing it.
It goes like this that when Imam Hussain was small child, once while playing when he came to prophet he saw him tensed. Imam Hussain asked the reason, then Prophet told that he is worried for his ummat (followers). Imam Hussain told Prophet "you tell me what is to be done i will do it for them". Prophet (with tears in his eyes) told my son you will have to sacrifice your life, your family for this cause. But Imam Hussain told prophet please tell me i will do it for you and your ummat (followers). Then Prophet told him that he will have to go to Karbala and he will have to give his head to save Islam.
I know it very well that you will deny this story or may be you will tell that the writer of the story is Kothari. And all other sort of S--T.
But one thing i would like to tell you that you are very much wrong when you say that bayan is only on Shahadat. And one thing which is never forgot in the bayan is the dua made by Imam Hussain in sajada. Can u tell me for whom he was doing it ?
And let me tell you one more thing uptill know only Bohris knew that you are among Laeens and know all the Shais will recognise you as Laeen.

[tahir]

Originally posted by porus:

Hindus worship Mahtama Gandhi and his message of peace. Hindus are one of the most violent people on earth.

Hindus don't worship Gandhi. Infact, the fundamentalist hindus hate him for he ceded to the Muslim demand for a separate Pakistan. Gandhi was even murdered by a Hindu fanatic. Till date the mainstream party BJP and the hindu cultural organisation RSS refuses to call him "father of nation".

[HUSAIN_HQ]

DEAR TA-HIR!

BE VERY SURE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. SOMETHING FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MAHATMA GANDHI IS NOT PREACHED BY ANY HINDUS INFACT HE IS ADMIRED BY ALL IRRESPECTIVE BEING A HINDU OR MUSLIM.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AND MANY OF HIS MASSGES ARE NOT UNDERSTOOD AT ALL BY MANY OF US.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MORE IMPORTANTLY HIS MASSAGE OF TRUSTEESHIP IS NOT UNDERSTOOD BY FRICKS LIKE YOU THATS WHY BOHRA PRIESTHOOD IS LOOTING POOR BOHRAS THAT FREELY.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[tahir]

Br. Husain Godhrawala,
I wish you give more time in reading and comprehending the context of a discussion before you decide to participate.

[porus]

That which you worship, you create an image of and put on a pedestal. It is way beyond admiration. In admiration there is at least some motivation to adopt behavior consistent with who or what is admired.

Most Muslims I know do not intend to follow Quran by studying it but show intense respect for it by wrapping it in red cloth and putting in a prominent position in their houses above anything else. They would occassionally recite from it without understaing a word. It is like chanting a mantra. They would also kiss the book when they handle it. This is worship of the Quran. They have made it into an idol. It is their murti.

This of course does not apply to true Muslims like Anajmi.

Gandhi is like Quran. Hindus have no intention of going along with his ideas. But his photos are prominently displayed in public and private places. They are garlanded and aartis are performed on his picture. A large number of songs are written about him. He is known in Gujarat as "Sabarmati na Sant" and many Hindus refer to him as Devta.

Of course some Hindus dislike this behavior of their co-religionists. They are the Anajmis of Hinduism. THey are the "true" torch-bearers of genuine Hindutva.

Let me paraphrase Tahir's contribution, this time using Ali ibn Abi Talib.

"The Shia don't worship Ali. Infact, the Kharijite Muslims hated him for he ceded to Muawiyah's demand for a peace based on Quranic principles. Ali was even murdered by a Kharijite fanatic. Till date the mainstream Sunni Muslims refuse to give him the status that the Shia give him."

[S. Insaf]

Yesterday I was discussing this topic with a Muslim friend who is not a Bohra but has several Bohra friends. He says Bohras are cowards, because they have no self-respect. How can a self-respecting person do the kind of things Bohra are asked to do? Your Amils have hardly any knowledge of religion and yet I have seen elderly Bohras kissing much younger Amil’s hands and keenly listening to their stupid arguments. How can any self-respecting person ever remain silent when his own family member or his co-religionist is insulted in front of him and that too for no fault of theirs? How can a self-respecting person remain silent spectator when marriages are stopped or dead bodies are insulted?
He said from his experience that your mullahs and Amils are more cowards than common Bohras. But Bohras have no self-respect and therefore have no courage to defy their dictates. If Bohras start defying them one by one how long these mullahs and Amils would get Sayedna’s support? Though Bohras are more learned and they are shroud businessmen still what is happening in your community is not tolerated anywhere else.
He also said even your Sayedna has no self-respect, otherwise he will not invite people from political and film circles to show respect for him at his invitation. He would not claim that he is "Kabatullah" or "Ilahul-Ard" and so on.

[S. Insaf]

Sorry please read as shrewd businessmen instead of shroud businessmen.

[anajmi]

porus,

Most Muslims I know do not intend to follow Quran by studying it but show intense respect for it by wrapping it in red cloth and putting in a prominent position in their houses above anything else. They would occassionally recite from it without understaing a word. It is like chanting a mantra. They would also kiss the book when they handle it. This is worship of the Quran. They have made it into an idol. It is their murti.

This of course does not apply to true Muslims like Anajmi.

That is not true. I show just as much respect for the quran as any other muslim. I kiss it too when I handle it. Does that mean I worship it? What does worshipping the quran mean? Does handling it with respect mean worshipping it? Have you ever heard a muslim say "Ya Quran"? Have you ever heard a muslim say "Ya Ali"?

And let us say for a second that they do worship the quran (as per your definition of worship), then is Allah going to throw them in hell because they associated the quran as a partner to Allah? It is Allah's word after all!!

The thing that is closest to Allah on this earth is his word. That is the only connection that muslims have to Allah, so it is no wonder that they treat it with the respect they do.

I am not sure where you get these ideas but you need to think about them a little bit more before believing in them.

[anajmi]

And then there are some, with thinking similar to yours, that claim that muslims worship the Kaaba or Prophet Muhammed (saw) himself.

Or how about - Muslims worship the mosques because they go into them five times a day and clean them up regularly and walk in them without shoes.

Or how about - Muslims worship themselves, they clean themselves up five times a day.

Or how about - Muslims worship Bukhari, because they follow the hadith and do everything as specified by it.

I am sure you will be able to come up with a few more.