Dawoodi Bohra Forum

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---"Citing an example of Bohra Muslim women, Modi said, ‘‘The women of this community fought for their rights and attained freedom in a male-dominated society. Similarly, all Muslim women need to understand their role and contribution to society.’’"--

Read complete story at

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstor ... wsid=63981

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Maybe. But I am shocked that young, modern mothers are also buckling under pressure and circumcising their daughters. when will this brutality stop?

Guess wHAT? The BUTCHER MODI"s coffers are full of Kothar's money so he will say anything to please Syedna & his gang- I can not believe that kothar was one of the first to felicitate this greatest butcher in history of Gujarat when he was reelected -Well goes to say Likes seek the company!When did the Bohri Women revolt ? CAn Br Qiyam answer that? Was revolting ever allowed in Bohri cult of past & present Syedna?

I can not believe that kothar was one of the first to felicitate this greatest butcher in history of Gujarat when he was reelected

Could you point out to any documentation of the felicitation or, as usual, you are shooting in the air ?

Originally posted by brandx:
Maybe. But I am shocked that young, modern mothers are also buckling under pressure and circumcising their daughters. when will this brutality stop?

Excellent point, brandx, and one that I feel needs to be addressed. Science has proven that female genital mutilation is extremely dangerous, yet bohra women still torture their daughters with this dated procedure. Does anybody know why it is practiced by bohras? Did anybody make a farmaan about it? FGM is only suggested in that hadiths, a lot of muslims do not endorse this barbaric practice.

I urge you all to stand up against it, enough innocent young girls have been tortured.

http://www.theasianoutlook.com/isfeamlecircumcision.htm

"At least one community in India and Pakistan, the Bohras, also practise it,...."

Is female circumcision allowed in Islam?
Khaled Ahmed

Most Pakistanis would be shocked to know that that their brethren-in-faith circumcise their daughters as duty under Islam. Some Muslim countries like Egypt, Kenya, Senegal, where this practice is rife, have reportedly banned the circumcision of women, but it is still carried out in areas not monitored by the state agencies. As a result, the total number of girls circumcised and those at risk has not gone down. The difficulty faced in some Muslim states is that the official fiqh makes it either ‘obligatory’ or ‘permitted’. Ten million women in Africa and the Middle East are at risk. The countries where the practice is observed are: Kenya, Nigeria, Mali, Upper Volta, Ivory Coast, Egypt, Mozambique, Sudan and Southern Algeria in Africa; and the two Yemens, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Jordan in the Middle East. The followers are not exclusively Muslim. Coptic Christians, Catholics and Protestants in these countries also circumcise their women.

Types of female circumcision: There is three types of female circumcision: sunna circumcision (Egypt, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Sierra Leone, Mauritania, Nigeria, Oman Yemen, Saudi Arabia, UAE); infibulation or removal of clitoris and scraping of labia (Sudan); Pharaonic circumcision (Somalia and wherever the Somalians are located, in Southern Egypt, Red Sea coast, Djibouti). The last named is the most cruel of the three, involving removal of clitoris and labia and the sewing of the aperture as a kind of lock. Respected President of International Islamic University, Islamabad, Dr Hasan al-Shafie, in a rejoinder sent to the author of this article (TFT 9 August 2002), observed: ‘At times – for instance when Ahmed quotes from Dr. Azzah Karam on the issue of female circumcision – he seems to ridicule, which is unbecoming of any serious scholarly undertaking. He concurs to her view, that infibulation has not been mentioned in the Qur’an as if Qur’an were the only source of Shariah. Moreover, that the issue of infibulation has been left to the discretion of the Egyptian society and does not enjoy any religious obligation. How can she (Karam) be ignorant of the many articles published in Egyptian newspapers by Dr. Muhammad Saleem al-Awwa who has very categorical stated that infibulation is merely a habit and does not carry a religious mandate.’

I have to plead guilty to the charge of not knowing the subject. I had simply opined in my earlier article that female circumcision should have been discouraged and eliminated by the ulema of Egypt because there is no injunction in the Quran requiring Muslims to circumcise their daughters. It was a naïve assumption on my part. I discovered upon deeper investigation that the evil of female circumcision has persisted because of religious sanction. I am now aware that many scholars of Egypt have written to condemn the evil practice, including Dr Muhammad Saleem al-Awwa. A Norwegian Muslim, Anne Sofie Roald, has brought out the details of the practice in her book Women in Islam: the Western Experience. She notes that during the 1994 Habitat Conference in Cairo the subject of female circumcision had become explosive among the participants as the CNN reported the death of two Egyptian girls during the operation of genital-cutting performed on them. The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi in 1994 made an official statement in which he challenged the belief that there were any authentic (sahih) hadiths or even good (hasan) hadiths which permitted female circumcision or make it compulsory. But Roald concludes; ‘This statement is interesting as many Sheikhs l-Azhar, the Highest Islamic authority in Egypt, have made fatwas in favour of compulsory female circumcision’.

An African ritual: Female circumcision is practised by the Muslims of Indonesia and Malaysia too. At least one community in India and Pakistan, the Bohras, also practise it, although it may have dwindled with the passage of time. It is likely that communities originating in Africa have retained an ancient ritual based on the fear of female sexuality. The pharaohs were all circumcised, as has been discovered upon examination of their mummies. It develops that while female circumcision (khitan) is acceptable to African Muslims the more cruel and mutilating form called infibulation is not, even though Sudan and Somalia still have strong evidence of it. The wife of the spiritual ruler of Sudan Hasan al-Turabie, Wisal, herself from the family of the Mahdi, spearheads the campaign against infibulation (not female circumcision) but fears that the custom may a long time to disappear. Most knowledgeable persons are agreed that foreign pressure would not remove this evil practice; only a movement of reform from within the Muslim society might end it. For instance, the Somali citizens of Sweden have decided to give up infibulation, while retaining what is known as sunna circumcision, after discussing the problem within the Islamic tradition and discourse. Western criticism of the practice, far from being helpful, will harm the trend towards reform.

The West is aware of the Muslim efforts to eradicate the curse of female genital mutilation. Egyptian scholar Muhammad al-Ghazzali (d. 1996) is reported to have held the view that female circumcision is an evil practice for which there is no evidence of the Prophet PBUH practising on his own daughters, thus indicating that this is not an Islamic custom. It is obvious that the matter cannot be classified as an Islamic issue since not all Muslims regard it as sanctioned. According to Muslim scholarly sources the schools of Islamic fiqh are divided over the issue. The Hanafi and Maliki schools think that while male circumcision was sunna, female circumcision was makrama (noble). The Hanbali school also thinks on the same lines, but the hadith on which these points of view are based is weak. The Shafei school of fiqh however regards both male and female circumcision as obligatory. Here the methodology is that reliance is made on authentic hadiths decreeing circumcision in general. There are certain variations of practice which must be kept in mind. The Maliki law encourages female circumcision. Sudan, under Maliki law practises female circumcision, but Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, under the same law, do not. More surprisingly, Egypt and Yemen are the only Shafei-law states that practise female circumcision; in Palestine, Lebanon and Syria, under the same law, the practice is unknown. That the Shafei fiqh is responsible for the spread of the practice is proved by the fact that Malaysia and Indonesia, placed in a region where female circumcision is unknown, do practise because of the domination of the fiqh.

For and against opinion: When the Grand Mufti of Egypt issued his fatwa against female circumcision in 1994, there was a conservative reaction to it. Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhairi, a salafi scholar of Egypt responded in 1996 by examining the hadiths on which female circumcision was deemed to be obligatory. Unlike other scholars, including those of the Hanbali school, who thought it acceptable (mubah), Zuhairi decided that the said hadiths actually made female circumcision obligatory. He added his own theories to the issue by saying that the intent of the circumcision was to lessen the sexual desire of the woman. He then also proposed, without much empirical proof, that women living in hot climates need circumcision because heat leads to the growth of the part needing to be circumcised, while the women living in cold climates do not need it. He presumed that women living in cold climates were possessed of low sexual desire. Zuhairi also ‘explained away’ a statement attributed to the famous Islamic scholar Hasan al-Basri (d. 782), that a contemporary of the Prophet PBUH, when invited to a feast celebrating the circumcision of a girl, declined to attend because he had not seen the practice in the time of the Prophet PBUH. Zuhairi thinks that the incident only proved that while male circumcision was to be celebrated female one was not. He also quotes hadiths from Bukhari and Tirmizi and the Musnad to prove that the practice was obligatory under the Prophet, but not all scholars accept his reasoning.

It is interesting to note that Egyptian women belonging to the Muslim Brotherhood are divided on the issue on the basis of their background. Those who come from the urban areas reject female circumcision while those who come from the countryside even think that circumcision is an act of beautification. The salafi thinking is divided between Europe and Egypt. While the salafi in Egypt thinks that circumcision lessens desire the one in Europe thinks that it actually enhances it. Outside of Egypt and Sudan, the Arabs rarely think that female circumcision is an Islamic ritual. In Egypt the Islamists support female circumcision in their opposition to the Egyptian government on the basis of the claim that the government was kowtowing to the West by banning the ritual. Many reform-minded Arabs believe that the right way to encourage morality was Islamic upbringing and not sexually inhibiting female circumcision.

An observable trend in the Arab world is to avoid discussing the subject of female circumcision because of the potential in to become explosive. Perhaps this is not the right attitude. It is better if the issue is not treated as a human rights problem by the West. Yet it is difficult to understand how one can avoid this happening if the Muslims themselves do not address it and instead declare that it is a peripheral or ‘internal’ issue which should not be raised at all. In Pakistan there are many practices generally condemned by our leading scholars and the ulema, but they go on being observed as Islamic edicts. There are many clerics who practise what is called halala, the obligatory marriage (often to the cleric himself) to a third party if the divorced couple wants to remarry. There are cases when a cleric after having promised to divorce the woman after halala has actually kept her because she preferred him over her divorced husband. Thus some clerics have acquired more than one wife. Muslims must think of reform in the light of Islamic principles and gradually come out of bad custom where it has latched on to faith.

Br Simon_ Iam not shooting in the air- I saw the picture of shahzada with the Kothari gang walking along in one of the news paper article- You can enquire at at the Kothari sites- I swear I am not lying!

Mohd Husain

The BUTCHER MODI"s coffers are full of Kothar's money so he will say anything to please Syedna & his gang- I can not believe that kothar was one of the first to felicitate this greatest butcher in history of Gujarat when he was reelected

Simon

Could you point out to any documentation of the felicitation or, as usual, you are shooting in the air ?

Mohd Husain

Iam not shooting in the air- I saw the picture of shahzada with the Kothari gang walking along in one of the news paper article

I am asking for documentation or pictures of felicitation and Md. Husain says 'I saw a picture of shahzada with Kothari gang walking along'. There are plenty of pictures of Shahzadas walking, standing, sitting etc. but my question still remains - where did u see any shahzada offering any kind of felicitation to Modi- be it in form of a picture or a letter.

I would let the readers decide whether Mohd Husain is shooting in the air or is he correct.

Footnote: If what Md Husain says is true, the enemies of the Daawat would not have waited so long to present these 'facts'.

Br Simon: I meant they walking with the cheif minister in one of the regional gujarati news paper about 9-10 months ago- I have not kept any copy but you can contact the Kothar & let me hear them denying it & i will try my best to get it -Bhai Saifuddin Insaf or BR Asgarali Engr might surely know about it!

Br Simon: You are just nit picking words of my statement & not answering the issues raised in the topic! Are the present bohri women really liberated? Is FMG gone? And when did the bohhri women got their freedom? A few years ago in fact lot of them lost their jobs bacause of the stupid RIda system imposed by kothar- For more info on this issue research on Prof Rehana Ghadialy on this forum----

And also don;t foget that Kothar has been always courting the politicians in power(Regardless of their Anti -Muslim agenda) Examples- mr Bal Thackray in Bombay-As recently they even invited President Kalam to Saifee mahal!The past Syedna also courted Nehru & Reddy ,Ali Ahmed,Raj Prasad & many others to inogurate their bogus schemes!As long as it suit their criminal activities they will kiss any body's ass so that they do'nt get prosecuted &india is ideal for corruption & bribery!

SOMETHING NEW
I received news that Turab Bhaisaheb; Shabbir Saifee, Saifuddin Mogri and several others in total 10 Dawoodi Members had contributed $2,000 each to attend Bush Fund raising dinner here in Los Angeles, about a month ago. As they had bought a full table (10), they got special favor to have a picture with Bush, that too in qaumi libaas. It is further understood that similar way, other Jumats will also attend Bush' fund raising dinners in three more locations, mostly in the east coast. Up to the election, Kothar may contribute $250,000 to 500,000 in Bush election fund!
When the entire Muslim Community is crying loudly for wrongly supporting Bush in the last election (Kothar had supported GORE!), The Kothar is aggressively supporting Bush and Republicans and that too openly! Someone say that by supporting Bush, Kothar will get special favor among other Muslim Organizations and that may help Kothar to establish strong base in Iraq and in the USA too!

You are digressing from the topic. You mentioned that Modi was fecilitated by the Kothar. I asked for proof and you go all over town about Bush and Thackeray. I need proof on Modi and Kothar. If you dont have it, I dont have anything else to say.

I am not digressing Simon- You are unable to answer or discuss the issues raised in the topic-That goes to show your ignorance & mentality of accepting status quo in the community- I already answered you that I do'nt have the copy or the reference at the moment as it happened a while ago but let me give you a challenge that if Kothar denies it I will be their humble servant forever!

I have no idea who Modi is, but his words quoted in this article do scare me.

Similarly, all Muslim women need to understand their role and contribution to society.’’ Please note that he is not saying they need to be equal, simply that they need to understand their role and contribution As defined by who ? Modi I'm sure.

This Modi moron goes on to say, ‘‘I saw a statue wearing a mini skirt with a bag in hand. This explains that India’s vision and approach has always been much ahead of the West.’’ So the idiot obviously relates attire to vision, no different than Anajmi who feels that that he is on a higher plain because the women in his family don't show jack s*** except enough so that they won't get run over when crossing the street. The fact they can't read the street sign is of no significance to him as long as they understand their role .

We have a lot of work ahead of us. Muslim women often don't know what FGM is because they are terrorized at a very early age.

Ignorance is simply dangerous. Education is the key, and the Internet and discussion boards such as this will eventually educate the masses.

may take more time than we can afford.....

Originally posted by Muddai:
I have no idea who Modi is, but his words quoted in this article do scare me.

Similarly, all Muslim women need to understand their role and contribution to society.’’ Please note that he is not saying they need to be equal, simply that they need to understand their role and contribution As defined by who ? Modi I'm sure.

Actually if you read before that, he says The women of this community fought for their rights and attained freedom in a male-dominated society... so its obvious he is talking about women fighting for the same rights as men.

The women of this community fought for their rights and attained freedom in a male-dominated society...

These same free women, sit in a separate section of the Bohri mosque fighting for the privilge to sit near a peep hole so they can see what's going on.

Freedom ? Yep, relative to the Wahabis....

That's a good point, but just like Modi apparently attributes attire to vision, you attribute one practical aspect of the segregation of men and women in a mosque to total lack of freedom for women. Same dumb logic.

Logic has never been part of the fundamental Islamic dialogue, in which case logic to you is dumb by definition.

Unless of course you were to enlighten me as to how muslim women have blazed the trails of freedom, and I have somehow missed it.

regards....

Br Simon; I have the photo that you need to see- The editor of this site will be displaying soon hopefully along with pictues of other politicians-

Logic has never been part of the fundamental Islamic dialogue

And this is YOUR idea of dialogue?

in which case logic to you is dumb by definition.

Read again. I didn't say logic was dumb. I said the comparison you made regarding where women in the mosque was just as narrow-minded and lacking in substance as what you accuse Modi of.

- I've been to several Bohra mosques and I've not seen the "peeping hole" you talked about. There usually is a wooden grill on the open portion of the women's floor from which they can look down on the men's floor. For obvious practical reasons this means that not ALL women have a view of the floor below. In mosques where they don't have a separate floor for women, they have a net curtain that separates the men and women and the women can see what's going on fine. Sometimes when there is a meal and not enough room for everyone to sit, they let the women eat first while the men stand outside waiting. Just one example that if Bohra women (in GENERAL) are treated as poorly as you make them out to be - which in my experience they are NOT - this wouldn't be happening.

- Narendra Modi is the chief minister of Gujarat who has been accused by some of complacency on the slaughter of thousands of Muslims by Hindu fanatics in Gujarat. I am surprised you've never heard of him. (You had said to Anajmi: "Your knowledge of world events is rudimentary").

Unless of course you were to enlighten me...

Again this is not a claim I made. Women are struggling for their rights with varying success in many societies - among Bohras, other Muslims, and even in the West.

You, on the other hand, pick a phrase out of context from an article about a Hindu politician you know nothing about and go on to imply that the struggle for women's rights is exclusively a "Muslim" problem and deny the progress Islam made on women's right especially in the early period - yet you have made NO credible attempt to show this, other than empty rhetoric such as Logic has never been part of the fundamental Islamic dialogue.

imply that the struggle for women's rights is exclusively a "Muslim" problem I did not say it was exclusively a Muslim problem, but there is relativity involved here. In Saudi Arabia women can't drive, and men can't rescue them from burning buildings, while in the US they seem to make 10% or so less in income. Get my point ?
You have to separate the two since even you can't imply that these struggles are of the same parity.

Bohri and muslim women in Asia do have relatively more freedoms than the Wahabis and the Arabs in general allow. That does not make them free, unles you lower your standards of freedom which is what you are doing.

they let the women eat first while the men stand outside waiting. Why not just eat together ?

Long way to go my friend......

Br Muslim: Can you plesase elaborate on Modi's Statement about :Bohri women fought & got their rights: My qustion is when & who fought & what freedom they got? I think this Syedna's regime is no better than one of a dictator who has curtailed the rights of both free thinking men & women equally -more so of women who are uncomfotable going to work wearing those ridas!Narendra Modi has been silenced with the heavy dose of MONEY!

You have to separate the two since even you can't imply that these struggles are of the same parity.

Yes, there is a relativity involved when comparing the rights of women in Muslim countries with "the West" - but I would go further: there is relativity involved in comparing those rights in developing countries (including sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, South Asia, China, etc) with developed countries.

(Pun is intended..... Muslim,

there is relativity involved in comparing those rights in developing countries (including sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, South Asia, China, etc) with developed countries.

That statement is asinine ! We are not discussing economic development, wealth, trade surplus or GDP (developed vs. "developing") countries. Curtailing women’s rights has nothing to do with the above. You are skirting the issue. (Pun is intended.....)

PS: Off-topic, do not assume that non-developed countries are necessarily "developing". Several Islamic and African countries are regressing.

Here are the pictures supplied by Mr. S.Insaf in resposne to Mohd. Hussain's request:

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BJP Minister Shri. Murli Manohar Joshi, inaugurating a book on Syedna Titled as "Anmol Ratan Dr. Syedna". The Amil of Dungarpur, Sheikh Ali Ashgar Kamus presented a shawl and some valuable gifts to the minister. The function was held in Delhi. (Photo & Report from Nasime-Sahar.)<br>
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BJP’s Minister Shri Keshubhai Patel Receiving a cheque of Rs. 21, 89, 000/- from Syedna for Chief Minister Relief Fund. (Photo & Report from Badre-Munir.)<br>
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After presenting the cheque to Shri. Keshubhai Patel this picture of him along with BJP Ministers, Ashok Bhatt, Keshubhai Patel and Vijay Rupani was taken and published in Badre-Munir to proudly publicise his favour and sympathy to BJP.<br><br>

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Syedna's son, Qaid Johar paying a visit to the Prime Minister Shri. Atal Bihari Vajpayee, congratulating him on behalf of Syedna for handling the Gujarat Situation.<br><br>
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Syedna's men with Saffron colored, lotus printed 'pattas' around their necks with chief minister Shri. Narendra Modi Celebrating his victory in the recent Gujarat election after the onslaughts on Muslims & heavy loss of lives & properties of Dawoodi Bohras. It was reported that these jubilant men of Syedna congratulated Shri Narendra Modi on behalf of Syedna and participated in the victory process under instruction from Syedna.<br><br>
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Rabid communal organization, Shiv Sena’s Chief Shri. Balasaheb Thakrey with Syedna at his Saifee Mahal. Other Shiv Sena & BJP leaders like Gopinath Munde, Kirit Somaiya, Manohar Joshi, Pramod Navalkar etc. also paid visit to Syedna at his Saifee Mahal along with Bal Thakrey where they were honored by Syedna by presenting them shawls and valuable gifts and a promise to help Shiv Sena – BJP alliance financially in the coming election. (Photo from Nasime-Sahar.)<br><br>

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Shame same.

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Are Bohras and Shiv Sena/BJP really such strange bed-fellows?

It would seem so if you consider Bohras are exhorted to do maatam continually for Imam Hussein's principled stand against enemies of Islam.

However, Hindutva, a rabid, exclusivist, anti-Muslim and fascist philosophy, which is the inspiration behind Shiv Sena/BJP has lots of parallels with Bohraism.

Bohraism is exclusivist; all who are different in thought and deed are deemed enemies in both philosophies.

It is fascist requiring thought control and based on an artificially cultivated cult of a charismatic personality.

It is equally rabid in its condemnation of others who are not like-minded.

Is it anti-Muslim? Well, what would Muslims in India think of Bohras sporting saffron dupatta and marching with Modi, a person universally condemned by human rights groups worldwide for having encouraged a pogrom of Muslims by trishul-wielding fanatical Hindus?

We are not discussing economic development, wealth, trade surplus or GDP (developed vs. "developing") countries. Curtailing women’s rights has nothing to do with the above.

Uhh.. no. Development in the context of "developing" and "developed" countries is not purely about economic development as you seem to think but social advancement as well, including the advancement of women's rights. Nevertheless, both economic and social factors (including, as you rightly stated, lack of education) contribute towards the problem - and what is truly asinine is to focus on just one of these factors.

Br Simon : Where are you! I kept my promise & produced the pictures for you !Now it is your turn to comment as to how good are your Syedna & his gang? I think they are first class criminals as much as those Anti-muslim politicians who murdered the innocent poor muslims in the name of the religion? If you don't come on & say something now i will accept the fact that Simon you want to stay ignorant & brain washed like the rest of the fanatics!