Desperate Measures

[S. Insaf]

Desperate Measures with Selfish Intentions will not do

Please read the English translation of an advertisement appeared in Hindi daily Rajasthan Patrika - Udaipur, on 30 January, 2008.

Appeal

Dawoodi Bohra sect in Udaipur were spending their lives in comfort and calm under the umbrella of their spiritual lord and Dai-ul-Mutlaq, Dr. Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb (TUS) leader but some years ago certain circumstances and events took placed in our community because of which our own brothers got separated from us. Our spiritual lord, Dr. Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb, has been extremely pained about it. It is his wish from the bottom his heart that his children in Udaipur should become one as were before and should mix with each other forgetting mutual differences and complaints.
Keeping in mind the heartily desire of spiritual lord, Dr. Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb (TUS)'s grand son, Sayedi Husain Bhaisaheb Saifuddin in Moharram this year has publicly appealed that our brothers who have gone away from us should come back and start living in comfort and calm under the umbrella of their spiritual lord as earlier our elders used to live and forget mutual differences and complaints.
This is not the cherished wish of the spiritual lord alone but it is a wish of his children living world-wide.
Through this advertisement we appeal to all intellectuals, social activists, officers of district administration, academicians, writers, elected public representatives and common public that they be the witness of our appeal inviting our brothers to the main stream of our community. With this we appeal to you all to help us to end the differences and create an atmosphere of good-will and unity.
Please Contact: 9829043738 * 9829042469 * 0294-2420539 * 9460826912 * 9413752452 * 9413480263.

Now look at the Fraud played by the Bohra Religious establishment:

1) The Adv. has no name of the advertiser. It has mobile and phone nos. only.
2) The adv. says, that "…. some years ago certain circumstances and events took placed in our community because of which our own brothers got separated from us." But they are not mentioning those circumstances and events because they themselves are responsible for them.
3) It had all started on the issue of 1970 Municipal elections in Udaipur. Yusuf Najmuddin was alive and at helm of Dawat’s affair who was a known arrogant, scheming and cruel.
4) An election is a purely secular issue. The establishment which calls itself a religious and spiritual had no business to interfere in the secular affairs of Bohras. But it did interfere. There is a Bohra majority in four municipal wards in Udaipur.
4) Mislead and pressurised by some ambitious and selfish characters in Udaipur like Shaikh Zakir Kurawarwala four Bohras were blessed by Sayedna to stand for elections on Congress ticket. But they were disliked by Bohras in general due to their corrupt practices and they recommended the names of four other Bohras who enjoyed the confidence of the majority. But were not accepted. Then they decided to set up their alternate independent candidates. With the result that 4 candidates blessed by the Sayedna lost their deposit due to overwhelming supports of Bohras to four independent candidates of Bohra Youth Association.
This incident annoyed arrogant and uncompromising Yusuf Najmuddin (Y.N.). He considered this act of Udaipur Bohras as an open defiance of Sayedna’s religious authority.
5) He immediately sent Sayedna’s eldest son, Quid Johar to Udaipur to crush the disobedient. Quid Johar reached Udaipur. As usual he was treated well by Bohras. He ordered to dissolve the duly elected Jamat committee, Anjuma-e Najmi, the Bohra Youth Association and Udaipur Urban Co-op. Bank under the pretext that they were established without ‘Raza’ of Sayedna. These social institutions had greatly benefited Bohras of Udaipur so it was not possible for them to dissolve them.
Having defeated in his efforts the vindictive Quid Johar misinformed Yusuf Najmuddin that the Bohras of Udaipur are ready to dissolve Bohra Youth and the Bank provided they get a farman from Sayedna to do so. Y.N. managed to get that farman. But the Bohras of Udaipur did not accept it.
Quid Johar rushed to Galiakot sitting where Sayedna and Y.N. were observing the developments in Udaipur. He again misrepresented the whole case and lied that he was kept without food and water for 3 days in Udaipur. This further annoyed Y.N. who in order to teach a lesson to Udaipur Bohras leashed a rein of terror on innocent Bohra women of Udaipur came to Galiakot for Urs and Sayedna committed a biggest blunder of his life and declared “Baraat” against Udapur Bohras associated with Bohra Youth, world wide, thus creating a divide between them.
Only after the artificial divide became real the religious establishment realised that all the trustees of “Punch Bohras’ had remained with Bohra Youth. Legally all Bohra properties in Udaipur were in control of these trustees. Unless these properties are officially dedicated to Sayedna he has no legal right over them.
6) Sayedna then resorted to legal course but he failed in his legal attempts too.
7) So now the establishment is taking desperate measures to regain control over the dissident of Udaipur in order to have their hold over the community's properties in Udaipur. They are adopting some time violent means and some time lenient attitude calling the dissident back. But since these desperate measures are taken with selfish intentions they have not succeeded.
In 2006 a mischievous Amil, Mustafa was sent to Udaipur, who on his arrival incited certain ruffians in Shabab group. Therefore, after almost 30 years of peace in Udaipur, suddenly incidents of violence erupted.
But as soon as the announcement of holding the World Conference in Udaipur with Theme of "Reaching out" to Bohras on the other side of the divide was made, they again changed their strategy. Amil Mustafa was called back and Sayedna's grand son, Husain Bhaisaheb was sent to Udaipur. He placed this adv. in the local newspapers. Also as reformist had planned a program of "Gandhigiri", i.e. Reaching Out to Bohras of Shabab group and convincing them to pray for the success of this Conference as it is for their liberation from the slavery of Kothar. The reformists also made an appeal to Sayena for reconciliation.
9) To keep the Bohras of Shabab away from the influence of this Conference they were taken away to Gialiakot in the name of some miracle of blood oozing out of walls of Fakhruddin Shaheed’s Dargah. They wanted to do it quietly. But due to their bad luck a bus out of three buses returning to Udaipur on the final day of the Conference met with an accident at the Khakar turning in Jaisamund Lake injuring 40 Bohras. The incident was reported in the local newspapers. So their plan to keep the Bohras of Shabab away from the Conference was exposed.
Also, as soon as Husain Bhaisaheb arrived in Udaipur he contacted Bohras of Youth telling them "forget and forgive the past happenings". Such appeals by them had been made in the past also.
But how can the oppressors and oppressed love each other?

Therefore the Bohra Youth, Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community and especially the Bohra women have made their terms for settlement or reconciliation very clear:
1) Dispute can be solved through dialogues. But talks should be held only between the authorised persons from both sides. The discussion in these talks should be made known to the community.
2) The present bureaucracy in Sayedna’s establishment has grown very arrogant and treats ordinary Bohras with contempt. This attitude will not do. The Sayedna’s duly authorised representative have to meet the reformists with due respect and would not try to dominate their one-sided decisions
3) Sayedna must, in writing, apologise for the outrageous attack on innocent Udaipur women in Galiakot in 1973.
4) Sayedna himself (and no one else) should declare on his Official Letter-head that he has lifted "Baraat" world-wide and every Bohra is free to enter and use all the community properties under his control everywhere.

There is no other way. Please note.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Thanks for this very informative post exposing the shenanigans of the unscrupuolus kothar and its arrogant leaders.

These utterly shameless and crafty methods remind one of the treacherous troops of yazid, who in order to thwart the forces of Islam led by Ali, raised copies of the Quran on their spears so that the soldiers would be confused and fall into disarray.

In this they succeeded, and the yazidi kothar is now trying to do the same. May Allah's laanat be upon them and their evil practices!

[africawalla]

I don't know what your problem is, what happened in the past should be forgoten, this guys are asking all the bohoras to unite and be together , why have you got objections, once again you are asking unresonable demands which you know cannot be fulfilled thus keeps you in the game

[Safiuddin]

once again you are asking unresonable demands which you know cannot be fulfilled

Why not AW? People are asking for an apology, transparency, and an end to the takeover of their property - that is unreasonable?
When Imam Ali Zain Al Abedeen struck his donkey, he felt remorse. Would these hypocrite, money grubbing, daari-dripping, thieves feel any remorse?
You seem to support the Kothari cause one day, and then the next day appear to support the reformist cause. Perhaps this is good way for you to hide behind the chaadhar.
But let me tell you, your beloved Syedna and his family have exlpoited, harrassed, murdered, and terrorized many, many people in their lives. To ask them to return stolen property and make amends for past behavior is nothing short of good sense.
I've been very close to the Yamani family for decades and have seen first-hand how lecherous and unscrupulous these people are. Even someone's wife is not safe from them and their naapak touch.

AW< I suggest you sit back, drop the banner of "I Love Fatemi Dai - Yah! Yah! Yah!". Then forget about the pomp and circumstance that TUS and family create to hoodwink people like you, and then really evaluate their BEHAVIOUR, and not the sentiment and garbage that they would have you believe.
I believe that Udaipur people's demands are well founded and deserve to be addressed.
Of course the Kothar and their henchmen would quell any opposition, questions, uprising, or dissension. With questions and knowledge comes the threat that their luxurious lifestyle, power, and control might come to an end. Ultimately, they are afraid of being exposed for the lying fakes that they are.
This is something you must have observed with your own Aamil, visiting Sheherezaada, or "Bhai"Saheb. It's pure tyranny, designed to protect their interest at all cost - and designed to keep you quiet and meek- and in the dark.
It's a shame that they have you hook, line and sinker.
Don't let them have your brain, too.

[JC]

I fully agree with Bros Al Zulfikar and Safiuddin.

Burhan and his family are a cheap bunch ot thugs and thieves. There is NO religion for them - what is religion - religion is only good deeds, helping humanity, making this world a place worth living - and not in namaz, sajdas and rozas etc.

I am totally surprized and shocked to see learned and educated people considering burhan as god on earth. How can there be such fools??!! or they have their vested interests in this tamasha??!!

[Al Zulfiqar]

Originally posted by africawalla:
I don't know what your problem is, what happened in the past should be forgoten, this guys are asking all the bohoras to unite and be together , why have you got objections, once again you are asking unresonable demands which you know cannot be fulfilled thus keeps you in the game

if a bunch of goonda's come and loot and terrorise and try to take away your property and what belongs to the community by force and continue to harrass, bully and intimidate over decades, then when they are unable to silence you and get their evil way, they just come and say, arey lets forget and become one, what would you do? would you forget and just give up all yr rightful demands and fall at their feet?

do you think that we are all a bunch of fools??!!

[like_minded]

I am totally surprized and shocked to see learned and educated people considering burhan as god on earth. How can there be such fools??!! or they have their vested interests in this tamasha??!!

Brother JC, you are right,these days educated and learned people have thrown their education and wisdom out of the window, and bow down to burhan and his thugs like as if they are Gods on earth.

I have personally known educated people like doctors, sofware engineers, chartered accountants who are all part of this band-wagon (blind following of burhan) vested interest or not, I wouldn't know, but in the end its a win-win situation for Kothari thugs.

Education for me is awakening and realizing the worth of life with immense understanding of the present.. unfortunately this education is missing in most bohras.

[udaipurresident]

Originally posted by Safiuddin:

once again you are asking unresonable demands which you know cannot be fulfilled

When Imam Ali Zain Al Abedeen struck his donkey, he felt remorse. Would these hypocrite, money grubbing, daari-dripping, thieves feel any remorse?
But let me tell you, your beloved Syedna and his family have exlpoited, harrassed, murdered, and terrorized many, many people in their lives. To ask them to return stolen property and make amends for past behavior is nothing short of good sense.

Then why should we reformists not take the initiative and show our remorse for the violent activities that had been commited by us in udaipur.Afterall when the split in our community took place in the 70's we reformists were in majority & we did have a upper hand in all the matters, be it in strength/numbers/dadagiri/gundagiri and so on.So why dont we reformists take an initiative and say sorry for our part of attrocities.
Insaf bhai has mentioned that our brother reformists off late have resorted to gandhigiri, but what kind of gandhigiri.This is nothing but a smart change of tactics on refrmists part.After the ramazan incident, when people from both sides were holed up in the jail, go and ask our brother reformists,how bad they were treated with.The reformists group have clearly understood that they can no longer maintain their dominance on the number /power game in udaipur.so its better to change the track rather than repeat the same mar pitai track.

[S. Insaf]

Dear Brother Africawala
In reply to your innocent-sounding statement, “What happened in the past should be forgotten, I reproduce here dialogue between a lone fighter in Surat, Zehra Cyclewala and shrewd and trickster Kothari Shahzada Mufaddal Bhai Saheb. Defeat after defeat in the court cases against Surat’s Amil, Sayedul-Khair and Surat Jamaat members filed by Zehra, Mufaddal Bhai saheb was sent to Surat for negotiating a compromise with Zehra. On 20th August 1998 he called Zehra ben for ‘compromised’. What happened between them Zehra ben has described in her book ‘One against All’. Note that like Justice Nathwani Commission and Justice Tiwetia Commission’s reports this book also has been published and its more than 20000 copies have been sold, but Kothar has not challenged a single statement written in the two commissions report and in this book. So it is an accepted fact. She writes in chapter 11 on page nos. 106 to 108 as follows:-

On 20th August 1998 in the night at 11 one Shabbir Mullaji came to my house with one Sunni Muslim builder Kadarbhai Kothmir. They said Mufaddal bhai Saheb, son of Sayedna is calling for ‘compromise’. I was shocked and shouted “Compromise? What compromise? Can you imagine the pain and sufferings I have gone through in last 13 years? They came in way of my job in the Saif Co-operative Credit Society. They hired goondas to kill me. They excommunicated me from the community and harassed me due to which my mother died. They refused my mother’s burial. They have committed all these unlawful acts. They are outright criminals. How can I compromise with criminals? I have filed number of cases against Sayedul-Khair and Surat Jamaat. Can you imagine the expenses and physical and mental torture I have gone through during the court proceeding? How can I forget what I have suffered in last 13 years?
Still I will compromise on certain terms and conditions.
Shabbir Mullaji said “Please come. There will be some solution.” He had brought “rida” but I refused to wear it. I then went to Mahidharpura Police Station and informed them that I have been called by Sayedna’s son and if any harm takes place to me he will be responsible. Then I went to meet Mufaddal Bhaisaheb under police protection. More than 50 people were present there.
Looking at me in Punjabi dress and bear headed Mufaddal asked, “Who is she?”
I said Mister! Stop acting. I am Zehra Cyclewala whom you have called for compromise.” Then without a full stop I narrated by story of personal sufferings in last 30 years. After hearing me Mufaddal most shamelessly said, “Zehra ben forget every thing. Just forget. Apologise and take Misaq of Sayedna and return to the community. We want to appoint you as the Secretary of the Surat Jamaat.”
I asked Mufaddal “And what about my sufferings for last 13 years? I lost my job, my earning through tuitions, waste of my times, energy and money in police stations and court rooms both here at Ahmedabad, and biggest of all my mother’s untimely death and dishonouring her dead body?”
“It is in the interest of tyrants like you that your victims forget your atrocities. But how can the sufferers like me forget you? Whatever I did was in reaction and reply to your actions. Moreover what ever you did was criminal and whatever I did was legal.”
Mufaddal said, “Look when death strangles in your throats then our Aaqa Moula will catch your hand and take you to Jannat.”
I said, “Shit! This is your philosophy to fool the gullible Bohras, but I believe that the good and bad deeds of a person will take him/her in heaven or hell.”
Then I asked Mufaddal a very pertinent question, “Do you think that Sayedna because whom I suffered for 13 years and many innocent Bohras are suffering for years can go to heaven? When his entry in heaven is doubt how can he take me to heaven?”
This was enough to enrage Mufaddal who started shouting at the top of his voice like a mad person. He said you are women and still you have such a long tongue.”
So I said “No compromise is possible with you. Now next time if you think of compromise, that too on my terms and condition take my permission come to my house.” I then walked out of that room.

[Sajid Zafar]

Saifuddin Bhai:

Zehrah Ben's story came into the limelight because of her personal courage. There are thousands of untold stories about the atrocities committed by Syedna, his father, his family members and paid Kothari goons against Bohras living in different parts of world. I wish such ordeals come on surface before the day of judgement so justice is done and the world knows the truth hiding underneath his dashing white cloths.

[Al Zulfiqar]

in pune, there is only one brave man who has dared to defy the kothar and is the only man still to remain outside the community.

when the estwhile chand bhaisaheb was sent to pune in 1975 to strike terror and enforce the baraat campaign then going on around the world, it was his custom to have the chamchas call up all and sundry, esp the wealthy and independent types and command them to immediately come to the dewri for a meeting. every bohra was so fearsome that they kept a topi handy in case they were called up.

when taherbhai poonawala was called up, he dared to ask why and was told that it is chand bhaisaheb's farmaan. so he asked again that i would like to know why. when they refused to elaborate, he didnt go. this enraged them and baraat was declared against him. his staff, incl. his manager, most of whom were bohras were threatened to quit their jobs with him, his wife was also told that she would have to divorce him, bohra businessmen were warned not do business with him etc.

But till today, he has defied them. he managed his life and his business on his own, he survived all the personal attacks against him. his wife is his biggest source of strength. in his case too, when he became a source of intense embarrasment to the kothar, they tried their best to 'compromise'. but he was steadfast that it would be on his own terms and conditions. i.e. no apology from his side, no salaam, no talking alone without credible witnesses. this they couldnt accept. he said he will insist on an apology from them, or alternatively that the bhaisaheb allow him to call takbira, or accept a ziyafat at his house or visit him at his shop, but in full view of credible third parties.

with the kothar never ever going to back down, he has stood firm and the matter rests.

and then charlatans like AW talk of forgetting and forgiving??!

[S. Insaf]

Mr. Taher bhai Poonawala and his wife Dr. Zainab Poonawala are really brave and committed reformist. I have seen them facing the onslaught during the organising of All Word Dawoodi Bohra Conference in Pune in 1983.
Others in Pune like Qutub Mahowawala joined him, latter succumbed to family pressure but this couple has remained committed though isolated. They, according to me derived their strength from socialist like late S.M. Joshi, Dr. Baba Adhav and Prof. Agarwal. They are through gentlemen too.

[mumineen]

Re: Muffy's response to Ms. Zehra Cyclewalla's :

Mufaddal said, “Look when death strangles in your throats then our Aaqa Moula will catch your hand and take you to Jannat.”

I think I have heard that Ms. Cyclewalla responded to Muffy that she doesn't know whether Aaqa Moula or she will die first. Only Allah does.

Can Ms.Cyclewalla confirm this?

[S. Insaf]

Dear brother mumineen,
I have quoted from her book 'One Against All' Biography of a Bold Lady by Yunus K. Baluwala. I rechecked her reported conversation with Mufaddal Bhai Saheb but not found the sentence which you have written.
Whether Saviour is dead or alive it does not matter to a blind faithful.

[kaki akela]

Bros Insaf & Zulfiqar :

I too am well aware of the history of Pune, today's as well eysterday's. No self-respecting Ph.D calls himself/herself a Doctor (or Dr.). So don't put Zainab Poonawala on a high pedestal. She may be your devi/devta,but for the rest of the momeneen in Pune she is a nobody. Her faith was corrupted even before 1975 while she was in Canada. Taher Poonawala's brother Kurban has done idol worship, not sure about Taher but he may also have done it. How dare you even call them muslims. Bro Insaf you are an old man now, do not cover your hatred towards dawat & Dai in a cloack of humane feelings towards them. Zainab is still corrupting the minds of the young in her family & in her influence. Ph.D from Canada doesn't make you an expert in matters of religion and faith. If you are so impressed by the people you mention in your write-up then why don't you join them in their faith and worship idols like Taher & Kurban has done in the past. You deserve no replies from me on this matter, I just wanted to set the record straight, and wanted to show others on this Board the other side of the coin,which you would like to keep hidden lest you lose.

[Danish]

Originally posted by kaki akela:
Taher Poonawala's brother Kurban has done idol worship, not sure about Taher but he may also have done it. How dare you even call them muslims.

Kaki, would be please elaborate on Kurban and Taher's idol worship? I mean what exactly are they doing that makes them idolworshippers? Aren't Muslims (and worse so the bohra people) idolworshippers but cannot accept or fathom just the same and become extremely irrational and gruntled?

[Al Zulfiqar]

Originally posted by kaki akela:
Bros Insaf & Zulfiqar :

I too am well aware of the history of Pune, today's as well eysterday's. No self-respecting Ph.D calls himself/herself a Doctor (or Dr.). So don't put Zainab Poonawala on a high pedestal. She may be your devi/devta,but for the rest of the momeneen in Pune she is a nobody. Her faith was corrupted even before 1975 while she was in Canada. Taher Poonawala's brother Kurban has done idol worship, not sure about Taher but he may also have done it. How dare you even call them muslims. Bro Insaf you are an old man now, do not cover your hatred towards dawat & Dai in a cloack of humane feelings towards them. Zainab is still corrupting the minds of the young in her family & in her influence. Ph.D from Canada doesn't make you an expert in matters of religion and faith. If you are so impressed by the people you mention in your write-up then why don't you join them in their faith and worship idols like Taher & Kurban has done in the past. You deserve no replies from me on this matter, I just wanted to set the record straight, and wanted to show others on this Board the other side of the coin,which you would like to keep hidden lest you lose.

kaki, its high time u went back to playing your masi-kaki games which u indulged in as a kid. wherein u gave free reign to yr imagination and fantasised about being grown up and owning a house and kitchen and cooked up fictitious meals, much as you are doing now.

besides you have grown old yrself and are a bitter, single, spinster kaki, an idol worshipper yrself of yr bhagwan syedna to whom u do sajda and pray for mojizas.

now to answer yr post:
1. where in the world has it been made illegal to use the word Dr. for a PhD? I know hundreds of people who are Phd's in Canada, USA, UK and elsewhere and they all use the word Doctor. In fact in the arab world, even a graduate in any discipline is referred to as a Dr.
2. as for your claim of Dr. Zainab or her husband being nobodies, then yr knowledge is very poor indeed. they serve on various councils and committees which are engaged in state and city programmes for the upliftment of the poor, education, environment etc, The lions club and various other charitable organisations, the university womens network, the association for the blind and so on. its yr hatred for them that makes u belittle their achievements. nobody here has called them devtas, on the contrary its blind devotees like u who revere the syedna nad his leech family as khuda and masoom and so on.
3. Most of dr. Zainab's family are fanatic and coward bohras who have gladly abandoned her and are happier licking a**e. her own sisters were office bearers of the bunnaiyat and others are known chamchas of the amil. if she was successful in converting them, wouldnt they be all reformists by now?
4. if they are nobodies, why has the kothar constantly tried by hook or by crook to bring them back into the fold? the kothar has made dozens of attempts to subvert them, but they have stood firm and refused to sell their souls to the devil. its yr frustration which is speaking!
5. No one has claimed that her Phd had anything to do with religion. so there is no point in yr linking the 2. intelligence and education do not neccessarily mean common sense in regards to religion. if it did, we wouldnt have so many blind graduate donkeys doing sajda to the dai today, something which was not done ever during the times of the prophet or maulana ali or even syedna hatim, who had declared a person who did sajda to him as a kafir and carried out baraat against him!
6. Idol worship?? then what are people who put photos of the dai on the walls and kiss them, who do sajda to him, pray 2 rakats to him, kiss his feet and knees, take mannats on his name and his evil liar fathers name, who say laanats on other human beings, who follow their syedna like a herd of cows for his deedar, what are they????
7. if there were photos of the nabi and ali and other great men of islam, would you also put them on yr walls and go against the tenets of islam itself?
8. its yr brainwashing and blind faith on the one hand, and yr hatred for all those who dare defy the extortionist dai and his family on the other, which makes u talk nonsense. methinks u are one of those who were a part of the baraat pogrom of 1975 in pune, when personal animosities were used to get even with anyone against whom one had grudges.

btw, for yr information, the stooge amil at that time, hatimbhaisaheb was a regular visitor to taher poonawala's house on weekends and actually invited himself there whenever he wanted to enjoy picnics and barbeques, up until that rascal chandbhaisaheb came to do his evil deeds.
he often took money on loan from taherbhai and in fact when baraat was declared, he still owed 10,000 Rs to him. since he was an amil, taherbhai trusted him enough not to get a promissory note signed from him. this money was very convenienently forgotten by the coward hatim and is still owed to taherbhai today. since u are such a fervent defender of the chor kothar, maybe u would like to pay it?

[S. Insaf]

Personally for me Dr. Zainab Poonawala is better off than Dr. Sayedna who could acquire his honorary degree through big donation made from community's hard-earned money.

[Al Zulfiqar]

kaki, now that Saifuddinbhai has brought up the mention of Dr. Syedna Burhanuddin, he hasnt earned it, its a conferred title (purchased by bribe) vis-a-vis Dr. Zainab's hard-earned Phd.

and now here is yr quote:

"No self-respecting Ph.D calls himself/herself a Doctor (or Dr.)."

so u just proved that the syedna is NOT a self-respecting person!! Thanks.

QED.

[Smart]

@kaki akela
A Doctor means a learned person. This title is given by Universities to those who have reached the pinnacle of knowledge in their own field. The long form of Ph.D is Doctor of Philosophy.

As a matter of fact, the Ph.D holders are the only doctors.

What commonly are called doctors are in reality physicians and surgeons. It is only because they use their knowledge for the welfare of human, do people call them doctors ou of love and affection.

So it turns out that Ph.D holders are the real doctors.

[Al Zulfiqar]

just wondering, where did that coward kaki akela disappear after getting slapped and punched on all counts? so typical of abdes to hide when their faces are blackened ..

[seeker110]

I think the check bounced.

[East Africawalla]

Its been 30 odd years since the Udaipur episodes, times have changed, people have changed , you should take the initiative and accept the call to rejoin the mainstream.

Its alwas better to work from within .

There cannot be a winner in this we are all mohmeen and lets be together and sort out the problems etc together.

[S. Insaf]

Dear Brother East Africawala,
You should know the events that took place in Udaipur in 70s. Our religious head had no business to indulge in local politics. On the advised of the then local Amil and certain corrupt elements like late Zakir Husain Kurarhwala a man like Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb whom we consider a religious and spiritual person indulged in all sorts of dirty politics. Then on the hearsay of his notorious son Quid Johar innocent Bohra women from Udaipur were molested and dishounored in Galiakot in his presence. Then he sent written Farman to dissolve a registered organition Bohra Youth and Udaipur Urban Cooperative Bank. Thereafter violent attacks on Bohra Youth supporters continued and appeared in newspapers all over the world but Sayedna Saheb did not care to stop it or even condemn it. He is the one who declared Baraat and created a divide. So who should according to you take the initiative?
Once again the majority does not constitute "Main Stream". Sunni Muslims have always remained in majority. Where as Dawoodi Bohras are in insignificant minority. And as I have said earlier Ahle-By'te-Rasool were in minority against non-believers and against deviators though they were on right path of Islam.
Please think sincerely and honestly about the actions of our Dai-ul-Mutlaq whether they were for the interest of Religion or to safeguard his own interests and his absolute authority?

[jamanpasand]

It is hard to face reality. But the fact is that very few youth families of the Udaipur revolts are still fighting the progressive cause. Significant of them have gone back to main stream, sizable have converted to twelvers and some have acquired sunni faith. The leadership of Udaipur revolt was incapable of successfully maneuvering such a popular movement and missed a life time opportunity.

[GreatBarrier]

SI and AZ, please this is 2009...if you keep your vengeance as a result of events in the 70s there will be no compromise...

I am in my 30s who grew up in East Africa and when I was child I do agree there were dramas and controversies and in my defiant days thought why should someone decide my lifestyle, Progressives were an option but when I compared to mainstream Muslims the only difference between you and us was the Sayedna bashing Now I have my kids and they are growing in the establishment where they enjoy our society , I have gone through worldly challenges and am very practical and tolerant about rules man made and religious and also adaptible. Let us hear from the youth whether they think like you guys too ?

The people in the 50s should give us a break...do not ruin the asiprations and possibilities for the future !

There is a growing majority whether you like it or not and I assume in the next 10-20 years the community will evolve..democracy in some form will exist where we can debate and challenge (current Sabaks allow you to speak your mind)and we can all tolerate our differences we will accept that like any other institution it requires revenue to operate and services will be provided on pay as you go basis.

Though fundamenatlism is on the rise fanatism is trending downwards in the modern societies.

At present where I sit in centre right..Orthdox run community are offering an olive leaf and you seem to be the once hung up on your history and being inflexiible.

Interestingly none responded to Udaipurresidents remarks which seem to be the voice from the grassroot and seem more sincere and not like desktop and internet informed PhDs like many of the contributors.

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Great Barrier,

Why olive branch was not offered in Hyderabad, Malegaon, Aurangabad and other ciites where reformist are in very less in numbers? Why they are being ex communicated with full force. Why every now and they are facing new problem from majority bohras?

Contarary to this in Udaipur a free hand given to local Jamaat where people can talk, visit, invite and even marry to each other. For coming back in to orthodox fold it is very simple, you just go to Amil and take meesaaque. In other city it takes long procedure and only after special permission from kothar, Special apology letter and after uttering laanats on reform movement, leader (and sometime even on their own brother, sisters or parents) one can get back into community fold. They are very generous in Udaipur becasue reformist in udaipur has strong base beside they are thousands in number. The most festive note is that they have controll over almost all mosques and jamat khanas. Once beacuse of betryal of some black sheeps in Reformist movement a permission was given to orthodox bohras to pray and use mosque (Moyyad Pura) and every one know what happend there during last few years and it is shameful that now the mosque is being opened and closed (only during prayer times) by police.

I know their policies as once I was very closed to these folks. Just say "thanks God" as you did not suffer any problem from them. I pray to almighty that no one including you face any problem from these tyrants. Ask to them who has experienced it. Imagine you own mother, sister or wife being spited or molested in public. Would you advise the same to other people. People says that Syedna is innocent and only some bad people around him does these but the Udaipur and Galiyakot incident was took place infront of him and he did not even bother to stop the goons when the helpless women were crying " Maula Bachao". This happens before 30 years when Syedna was very healthy and there was no problem with eyes, ear or neck or any other part of body.

Tell me frankly even if today you mother narrate an incident to you where she was mishandled with any one, what will be your reaction?

[Humsafar]

Great Barrier,

What happened in the 70s may be mere history for you but those events have seared the lives of many people. And what happened then has shaped and informed much that is happening now. Nobody is seeking vengeance - that is a complete misinterpretation of what reformists stand for. The least the sayedna can do is own up to the mistakes of the past and tender unqualified apologies to the victims of his dawat's terror. This what a morally upright leader should do, but reformists make no such demand. All they demand is reforms to the way our community and its finances are managed.

And what "olive branch" are you talking about? The orthodox in Udaipur have been instructed not to ex-communicate (baraat) reformists because the dawat fears the negative outcome of the ex-communication case now in the courts. This does not amount to "compromise" but a mere tactical and cynical move. There is no proposal from Sayedna or his administration to even acknowledge our grievances leave alone sitting down and having any kind of dialogue.

[Al Zulfiqar]

There is a growing majority whether you like it or not and I assume in the next 10-20 years the community will evolve..democracy in some form will exist where we can debate and challenge (current Sabaks allow you to speak your mind)and we can all tolerate our differences we will accept that like any other institution it requires revenue to operate and services will be provided on pay as you go basis.

Though fundamenatlism is on the rise fanatism is trending downwards in the modern societies.

gb,

if in the past 35 years, inspite of the reformists perfectly reasonable demands of democratic functioning of jamaats and accountability of funds collected by the kothar as was done uptil the 50th dai, no change has occured, then from where one can expect democracy in the future? on the contrary, the kothar has become much more harsher and constantly inventing new taxes which never existed before and imposing them on all without least consideration for poor or widows. if you are reasonably well off, you negotiate and grovel etc. they reduce some amount. but dont pay and they will throw you out of the masjid/markaz.

as for sabaks, i have attended them and they will allow u to ask questions, but only within certain set boundaries around which their sabaks are built. ask any question out of it which doesnt agree with them and see their reaction.

even the reformist jamaats need money to operate and they function exactly as u say, pay as u go. accounts are scrupulously maintained, there is no secrecy and when they have a function with food, everyone pays up for it per head. there is no compulsion and those who can afford give more and those who cant are not coerced or thrown out and insulted. because there is transparency and a feeling of brotherhood, people actually come frwd to give more than reqd. that is a natural human reaction. when there is honesty and sincerity, benefactors mysteriously appear. but when u are forced and humiliated, there is no integrity and honesty, esp. when it concerns religion, then is it surprising that people want to give the least? every reformist wants to unite with his fellow bohras, but when they are spurned for asking genuine reforms within the principles set out in our own scriptures and religiously followed by all previous dais and even imams, then what are they supposed to do? grovel and lick as the others do?

[GreatBarrier]

Thank you AZ, H, HKSA and others after a long time I am observing a constructive debate, not attacks or abuses...keep it up. However do not interprete this as a victory or surrender but a professional courtesy and temperory ceasefire !

Is there anyone from the far right representing India on this forum who can help respond to the specific cases presented ?